Played wrong ball penalty

[Aldo123]

in 20 years of golf only had it happen twice it’s just happened twice in a week

 

Match play loss of hole for whichever player hit wrong ball first or in 4bbb match play I expect just player at fault out of hole, not his partner 

 

my understanding of the rule in stroke play is as follows and I do have a few questions please correct anything that I’m wrong about too

 

player 1 mistakenly hits player 2s ball

 

if player 1 and player 2 are 95% certain that this has happened and the only way I can imagine this scenario would be both middle of fairway after hitting walking on say 10 yards to other ball turns out it is player 1s

 

player 1 carries on from his ball with 2 shot penalty

 

player 2 places (not drops) ball back on original spot for no penalty. If they drop it’s a 1 shot penalty… do they have to place it in  the divot player 1 just made????

 

……

 

here is what happened  twice this week player 1 unknowingly hit player 2s ball, player 2 then used their 3 minutes searching for their ball and couldn’t find it  (obviously) so only option available to player 2 is to go back to where they hit previous shot from, drop and play another. Or just NR the hole. At this point player 2s ball is dead 

 

upon getting to green or wherever player 1 hit ball to they realise it’s not their ball.

 

for player 1 he gets 2 shot penalty regardless of how many times he’s hit wrong ball and I think he gets the remainder of his 3 minute looking period to find original shot and continue. If he can’t find it it becomes lost and say it had been his original tee shot his only option is to go back to tee and he’s hitting his 4th shot

 

for player 2 (somewhat unfairly imho) it’s just tough luck his original ball is dead and he’s either gone back and played 3 off tee  (or 4 from position of tee shot if it happened on second shot) and now has a live ball that he must continue playing 

 

or lazily didn’t bother going back to play it again instead choosing to NR the hole

 

or is making way back to retake his shot but at the point mistake realised he hasn’t yet retaken his shot

 

given that player 2 now knows where his ball was even though it is considered dead. Would player 2 be allowed to take a penalty drop from the position of the dead ball if they haven’t hit another be it 2 club lengths or line of sight relief for a 1 shot penalty? Or at this point does that ball not exist and he proceeds as if his ball was lost and mistake not noticed/hadn’t happened??? 

 

thankyou

 

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Aldo123

[Mr. Bean]

11 hours ago, Aldo123 said:

for player 2 (somewhat unfairly imho) it’s just tough luck his original ball is dead and he’s either gone back and played 3 off tee  (or 4 from position of tee shot if it happened on second shot) and now has a live ball that he must continue playing 

 

or lazily didn’t bother going back to play it again instead choosing to NR the hole

 

or is making way back to retake his shot but at the point mistake realised he hasn’t yet retaken his shot

 

given that player 2 now knows where his ball was even though it is considered dead. Would player 2 be allowed to take a penalty drop from the position of the dead ball if they haven’t hit another be it 2 club lengths or line of sight relief for a 1 shot penalty? Or at this point does that ball not exist and he proceeds as if his ball was lost and mistake not noticed/hadn’t happened??? 

 

 

If it is not known or virtually certain (KVC) that an outside influence has moved the player 2's ball into an unknown place it is indeed tough luck for player 2, their ball is now lost and the only option for them is to return to the spot where they hit their ball the previous time with S&D (one penalty & loss of distance). It makes no difference if their ball is found after the 3 minute search time has elapsed, that ball is still lost.

 

This may sound unfair but what would be the alternative? Without KVC anybody could simply claim that their ball was played by another person as wrong ball or an elf took their ball or something like that.

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Aldo123]

Thanks for reply mr bean honestly don’t know what would be a more fair way to do it

 

if player 1 had stuck it in bushes or a lake then yes just tough as when you aren’t KVC then can’t have people just sticking down a ball

 

both times this week it’s been a 100-150 yard shot into a green that player 1 hit both times after he took his shot we would have said KVC player 1 has hit a ball on green

 

upon getting to green and seeing player 2s ball on green no sign of player 1s ball we’d of said KVC player 1 must of hit player 2s ball…. 
 

under these circumstances at this point I’d say player 2 going back to hit from where his first ball initially was  placing it and carrying on playing without penalty would seem fairer ignoring everything else player 2 has done, searching / using up his 3 minutes /playing other balls etc as no fault of his own

 

But obviously not the rules

 

my takeaway from these incidents is to scribble all over your ball with a sharpie, as looking back, with cross crossing fairways and people with dubious eyesight never know how many times it’s happened in past without me knowing from groups on different holes

[antip]

Minor add on: if you see your ball come to rest in the middle of the fairway but when you get to the area it is not there, then you can be confident (KVC) that the ball was moved by an outside influence. 

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Aldo123 said:

both times this week it’s been a 100-150 yard shot into a green that player 1 hit both times after he took his shot we would have said KVC player 1 has hit a ball on green

 

upon getting to green and seeing player 2s ball on green no sign of player 1s ball we’d of said KVC player 1 must of hit player 2s ball…. 
 

under these circumstances at this point I’d say player 2 going back to hit from where his first ball initially was  placing it and carrying on playing without penalty would seem fairer ignoring everything else player 2 has done, searching / using up his 3 minutes /playing other balls etc as no fault of his own

 

But obviously not the rules

 

 

Exactly, not by the Rules.

 

However, if player 2 suspects that player 1 has played his ball player 2 may say that he is going to check the ball on the green. Saying that he is given reasonable time to reach the green and identify that ball, and when it turns out to be his he must go back to the spot player 1 played his ball from and place it there and continue his play with no penalty. Naturally he must bring his suspicions up within those 3 minutes that are there for him to conduct his search.

[Purple Toupee]

16 hours ago, Aldo123 said:

 

 

player 2 places (not drops) ball back on original spot for no penalty. If they drop it’s a 1 shot penalty… do they have to place it in  the divot player 1 just made????

 

I don’t believe this question was answered.

[Augster]

28 minutes ago, Purple Toupee said:

I don’t believe this question was answered.

Good players take a divot after the ball. So the ball would be placed at the start of the divot. 
 

Also 14.2d(2). 

[antip]

3 minutes ago, Augster said:

Good players take a divot after the ball. So the ball would be placed at the start of the divot. 
 

Also 14.2d(2). 

Even monkeys fall from trees. 

[Mr. Bean]

17 hours ago, Aldo123 said:

player 2 places (not drops) ball back on original spot for no penalty. If they drop it’s a 1 shot penalty… do they have to place it in  the divot player 1 just made????

 

 

That is an excellent question.

 

In principle, a player is entitled to the lie their stroke gave them. Based on that I would say either the lie needs to be recreated or the ball must be placed as near as possible to the original spot in a similar lie with the original.

 

@antip: do you agree?

[antip]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is an excellent question.

 

In principle, a player is entitled to the lie their stroke gave them. Based on that I would say either the lie needs to be recreated or the ball must be placed as near as possible to the original spot in a similar lie with the original.

 

@antip: do you agree?

Recreated in sand, placed in nearest spot etc when not in sand - as per 14.2d - if the original lie of the ball has been altered.

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, antip said:

Recreated in sand, placed in nearest spot etc when not in sand - as per 14.2d - if the original lie of the ball has been altered.

 

Just out of curiosity:

 

What if the ball was lying on a divot hole filled with sand? I suppose recreating the lie would be most likely impossible as the sand would have been blasted away with some of the soil as well. Wouldn't the player then replace the ball instead or recreating the lie?

[antip]

12 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Just out of curiosity:

 

What if the ball was lying on a divot hole filled with sand? I suppose recreating the lie would be most likely impossible as the sand would have been blasted away with some of the soil as well. Wouldn't the player then replace the ball instead or recreating the lie?

 

12 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Just out of curiosity:

 

What if the ball was lying on a divot hole filled with sand? I suppose recreating the lie would be most likely impossible as the sand would have been blasted away with some of the soil as well. Wouldn't the player then replace the ball instead or recreating the lie?

Could be possible to recreate if the player is carrying a sand bucket. 14.2d(2)/1 may also be relevant. Just need to work out what gets you closest to the requirement of the rule and play on. 

[Aldo123]

Would there be any avenue to look at with a different outcome if player 1 has intentionally hit the wrong ball in an extreme example your ball being a different colour to his or being scribbled on to the point he has no defence, or is it still just tough once you have used your 3 minutes 

 

with possible future sanctions on player 1 from the committee or whoever hands out bans…. I guess

 

and for player 2 it’s still just tough luck and to prove player 1 intentionally did it is a big ask

 

shouldn’t happen in singles but in a 4bbb a player from team a could intentionally hit a ball that belonged to player from team b who had a shot on the hole but has then blobbed it, the perpetrator blobs hole as well but is the perpetrators partner still live and in the hole?

 

 

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, Aldo123 said:

Would there be any avenue to look at with a different outcome if player 1 has intentionally hit the wrong ball in an extreme example your ball being a different colour to his or being scribbled on to the point he has no defence, or is it still just tough once you have used your 3 minutes 

 

with possible future sanctions on player 1 from the committee or whoever hands out bans…. I guess

 

and for player 2 it’s still just tough luck and to prove player 1 intentionally did it is a big ask

 

shouldn’t happen in singles but in a 4bbb a player from team a could intentionally hit a ball that belonged to player from team b who had a shot on the hole but has then blobbed it, the perpetrator blobs hole as well but is the perpetrators partner still live and in the hole?

 

 

Conspiracy theory?  The Rules are based on players acting with integrity.

[antip]

10 hours ago, Aldo123 said:

Would there be any avenue to look at with a different outcome if player 1 has intentionally hit the wrong ball in an extreme example your ball being a different colour to his or being scribbled on to the point he has no defence, or is it still just tough once you have used your 3 minutes 

 

with possible future sanctions on player 1 from the committee or whoever hands out bans…. I guess

 

and for player 2 it’s still just tough luck and to prove player 1 intentionally did it is a big ask

 

shouldn’t happen in singles but in a 4bbb a player from team a could intentionally hit a ball that belonged to player from team b who had a shot on the hole but has then blobbed it, the perpetrator blobs hole as well but is the perpetrators partner still live and in the hole?

 

 

A Committee may treat intentionally hitting a wrong ball as Serious Misconduct under Rule 1.2, so DQ.