Shoving putts instead of rotating putter

[Peter_b]

*sigh* the open putterface. Does anyone have a drill or feel or the mechanical cause to stop shoving putts instead of rotating the putter? By shoving I mean moving the putterhead hole-wards. It results in an out to in putt with an open clubface of about 1.5 to 3 degrees which is unusable in the wild. Additionally putts get short as the ball is cut. I can stop this by actively rotating the putter in the beginning of the downswing but it feels manipulated and just the right motion to get a yips. It also can get overrotated then.

Is there a move to get that putter rotating without using pronation or the lower right arm? Id prefer to use the shoulder girdles for this but I cant find a way how. I can even shove the putterhead with putting styles like Axys where hands and elbows are locked down.

To me it does not feel like I need a way to close the putter but a way to not want me to move the putterhead to the hole like shoving dirt onto a shovel with a broom.

Upswing and downswing are definitely not symmetric. 

Measurement with Skypro and Blast motion. Both showing the same. Slight Inside loop 3.0 open more rotation up than down.

 

what is not working:

- any alignment of feet shoulders, any ball position.

- changing head position, eyes

- moving putter left of hole aka left of the chalk line

- trying to close with shoulder rotation

- trying to release the putter aka stopping hands

- putter toe hang. Went to store with blast motion and after half hour of putts the conclusion was the problem is holding the putter

- any putting style. Utley lower arms orbit, shoulders, shoulder girdles, Nicklaus right hand, Mangum left arm, Axys maybe the best but still I can get to 3 degrees open and not being able to get it to below 0.8

- reading books on putting

- just putt, dont bother, be a feelputter, see the line role it. Id love that and can do that but then I have to address 1.5 to 3.0 degrees left of the target line. How much is lottery.

- putting coaches not adressing this problem online. At least according to my search. Had high hopes for Flatsick Academy but could not find adressing the shoving problem

- no putting specialized coach in my region

- more practice. As you can see even on Skypro I have 13000 putts and I am on the putting green more than anyone I know.

 

 

I think this problem might sound familiar to people who push and checked their numbers. 

The cause I think I know. Decades of moving the putter to the hole.

 

 

typical putt:

More upswing rotation than down differenc eis the open face.

 

Skypro the open face and the shoving is well visible. 

 

 

 

Inside loop. This is address! light blue line is the upswing, Dark blue is downswing.

 

 

 

 

 

The shoving/brooming putter is square to the line but not putting arc

 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Peter_b

[iacas]

Have you tried… not opening it nearly as much in the backswing? Try to almost counter-roll it slightly. "Hood" the face a little in the backswing.

 

Another way: grip a 6" or 12" ruler or something flat along the flat part of your putter (assuming it's not round like mine), and feel that it stays facing the same direction for a long time. If you roll the face open too much it'll add more clear "roll" to the ruler, too. Alternatively, just feel that your thumbnails stay facing "out" the whole time and don't roll to your right.

[Peter_b]

That is actually why I am doing right now. Needed to feel the right swing. Not putting here just showing the device on the rail I quickly designed with 70°. (will upload later to printables) The arc is much much less curved and there is of course no loop.

It is indeed that my hands feel rotating counter clockwise. So I agree with your advice nails out.

 

But to correct this I need the cause.

1. too much left pronation right suppination lower arm in backswing

2. elbows orbiting too much going too deep

3. shoulder girdle pulling inside too much

 

combination of 1-3

 

I suspect number 2 isolated as I can get 3° open with Axys technique where  hands and girdles are locked down. But unsure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

roads arc:

 

 

 

what a beauty would love to have this arc, I want it.

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Peter_b

[bladehunter]

Right hand only drill.  no way to not feel the toe moving in my opinion that way.  You instantly feel the block. And will repair it instinctively. 
 

 

[Haroputt]

Don’t know it you forward press or not but when I eliminated the FP it reduced shoving greatly 

[MonteScheinblum]

This could be a reaction to excess hip rotation.  I see that every day.  

[Peter_b]

If I dont touch the rail by going forward an inch I am back to unusable numbers. With 3.9 open there is no need to aim at the hole, just look for good distance and get inside 2 feet as it will fall from there with that open club.

[bnperrone]

For me it was a combination of two things that solved it. First one is taking it further back and letting the putter "drop" to the ball on its own rather than making effort to stroke it. A bit hard to describe, but basically less effort and more gravity. It also helped my speed control (go figure). It also didn't work well the very first time I put it into play, so I had to give it some time and I'm glad I did. 

 

Second was going to an LAB. I fit into face-balanced a long time ago (when torque-free wasn't a thing) and that was a huge help, but for me the LAB concept is the furthest extension of that and the setup that suits me. 

 

Wait, there was a third key. Establishing which eye is dominant and getting set up so it's over the ball. I'm left-handed, play right-handed, and am right-eye dominant. Go figure.  

[Peter_b]

@MonteScheinblum its me from Spicy back then. How is it going? Hips not dancing and very stable but will check again by someone holding my hips while I putt. Would be too easy.

@Haroputt no forwardpress used

@bladehunter I tried that but can do that again to see if it fixes the problem.

 

 

 

[olink]

Grip maybe? Thumbs on top isn't necessarily best for everybody. Try over or under some with your trail hand some maybe. Also have you ever checked with a laser to confirm face alignment when you think it's aimed at the target? I had a putter I pushed everything with, turns out I was aiming there when I thought I was aiming at the hole. Switching to a deeper head shape with some offset fixed that for me but ymmv.

[Peter_b]

This is righthanded after a couple of dozens of putts right handed only. I am really really trying to get that putterhead square through but it feels brushed not rotating. 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Peter_b

[jomatty]

When 8 got numbers like that with blast motion a lot of it was related to set up.  I would double and the. Triple check your alignment to make sure you are aiming the putter face at the hole correctly to start.  Going to a LAB and a completely square stance also helped a lot.

once I got lined up and square, I rest my elbows on the front side of my ribs and rock my shoulders/chest over the ball and my numbers improved tremendously.  Still hips also mandatory

[Peter_b]

@olink I tried every grip and gripping. Putter goes though lifelines not fingers left index extended on right hand. Position of hands do not change anything. I adapt to every grip. I tried crosshanded hands almost at same height right hand hooded over putter like Sergio did/does. Also played gripping from under club Kotahi grip triangular thubs at sides. Just the same I am acing that putterhead through open as if it was the goal when putting. The grip is ruled out I think

[Peter_b]

@jomatty will recheck still hips as did say Monte. I think they are stable but feel and real can be different. 

Stance I can stand open like Nicklaus, closed, shoulders square or shoulders open or shoulders closed. Combinations of them all and I will always laser sharply putt slightly open 1.5 -3° for you like a clockwork. 

That alone is so strange that I think the help I need is from an exorcist not a pro.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Peter_b

[olink]

@Peter_b Out of curiosity, why grip in the lifeline instead of fingers? I'm much more comfortable with it in the fingers (esp. trail hand), I have an easier time feeling the clubhead swing and release that way.

 

Quote

Combinations of them all and I will always laser sharply putt slightly open 1.5 -3° for you like a clockwork.

 

May be the root of your problem, IMO. Sounds like you keep pushing it to where your eyes think the hole is. Find a head shape and alignment maker combination that gets you lined up square. Something as simple as putting a couple more lines on the back of your putter may be enough.

 

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, olink said:

@Peter_b Out of curiosity, why grip in the lifeline instead of fingers? I'm much more comfortable with it in the fingers (esp. trail hand), I have an easier time feeling the clubhead swing and release that way.

 

I love to grip golf clubs* in the fingers.

 

* Everything but the putter. It's pretty common to have the putter up the lifeline.

[Peter_b]

22 minutes ago, olink said:

Sounds like you keep pushing it to where your eyes think the hole is.

 

All those putts i did just square to where the putter head was aligned. No hole involved. Just really trying to set down the putter behind the ball and getting the Putter back within faceangle +-0.8 degree. Its not alignment of anything. If it was I would have dialed that in easily.

 

Iacas nailed it at the beginning of the thread that I rotate the backswing too much. But why? What does this? I dont have the Blast  motion here and the Skypro does not show club rotation. I will check the rotation on the stabilised rail to know what rotation there should be. As I understand the Blast motion measures rotation to ground not the putter plane as it would be constantly 0 degree to putterplane.

 

Funny thing is also sometimes I get it right but loose it the next day or even hours and I dont know why, not consciously doing anything different.

 

After trying the Axys swing it was like this. I thought great if I lock everyhing down I can putt straight even if distance controll is utter crap with that method. 

 

 

 

then next day not doing anything consciously different:

 

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Peter_b

[J_Tizzle]

Not trying to be that guy, but my switch to side saddle putting took all of that out of my game and I start the ball on my line at such a greater rate than I did with a shorter putter.  Something to consider if you can't figure it out.

[Peter_b]

21 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

my switch to side saddle putting

 

There is certain methods I will not do, I will not use a broomstick and I will not anchor the putter Dechambeau like to my left arm. I will also not use a ultra short putter, dunno 28 inch or something, like a friend of mine that now gets below 30 putts per round with a style that looks ridiculous and is super uncomfy. Sidesaddle is one of those methods. I want to have fun putting. Even Axys style was really borderlining what I was willing to do. The numbers up there are just so good I had to give in.

My prefered style would be Utley orbiting elbows, no torso and slight shoulder girdles but I never got the desired numbers out of that style. But is has the most finesse, touch and distance control and most of all it makes fun.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Peter_b

[Peter_b]

https://www.printables.com/de/model/503253-roads-arc-putter-antirotation

 

Here is the 3D Model of the antirotation on rail thing as little thank you for you guys helping.

 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Peter_b

[Peter_b]

@jomatty  @MonteScheinblum Hmm the Blast motion Axys style numbers going from perfect to fubar the next day could indicate an unstable lower body which would be crazy me not realising it. I will get to the bottom of this quickly.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Peter_b

[J_Tizzle]

28 minutes ago, Peter_b said:

 

There is certain methods I will not do, I will not use a broomstick and I will not anchor the putter Dechambeau like to my left arm. I will also not use a ultra short putter, dunno 28 inch or something, like a friend of mine that now gets below 30 putts per round with a style that looks ridiculous and is super uncomfy. Sidesaddle is one of those methods. I want to have fun putting. Even Axys style was really borderlining what I was willing to do. The numbers up there are just so good I had to give in.

My prefered style would be Utley orbiting elbows, no torso and slight shoulder girdles but I never got the desired numbers out of that style. But is has the most finesse, touch and distance control and most of all it makes fun.

 

I've never heard of this Axys style of putting but watched the summary video on their website, it looks wildly uncomfortable but nothing too insane in all honesty.

 

I always said I'd putt with a big dildo if it improved my putting and luckily it never came to that once I found side saddling.  Personally it took all the analytics out of it (which it appears thats very important to you) and allowed me to more "paint the picture" with how I putted, I can read the crap out of a green but could never get it started on the appropriate line, but now I can.  It seems like it works for me but takes the ability to withstand the ribbing from your buddies for sure. 

 

 

 

 

Good luck on your search.

[Peter_b]

15 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

it looks wildly uncomfortable

 

Yeah It’s a dentist appointment each time LOL drawback is really distance control-

 

I get you Jay 26 putts is a dream, if the club piles up wood around a stake get home as quickly as you can. Will pm you about side saddling and the dildo color.

 

I can rule out lower body motion. If I put my behind against a stool its face open as usual.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Peter_b

[Fuscinator]

Try shoving it with this right hand grip. 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

 

I always said I'd putt with a big dildo if it improved my putting

 

 

You win the internet and I agree 

[Peter_b]

@Fuscinator Whoah you got something there. First I thought you were trolling but then I remembered Nicklaus was said to put his right hand under. It may be you nailde the right hand right elbow as the traitor. This has to hold up, but the numbers are good at the moment. 

 

"Pinching the grip" with the right hand. Thumb and index at the flat sides of the standard golf pride putter grip.

 

6 putts only 1 above 1 degree. Still all positive though. Would like to see slight negatives also to have bigger range of miss as -0.8 to + 0.8 would be huge intead of +0.3 to +0.8. The method giving me equal negatives as positives is the right one.

 

I am still skeptical as this is how you grip the Kotahi which I currently using and I am open with that. Could be just a period where I don't do some bad and my unknown planekiller comes back later. Will do more putts during the day and report. That +1.3 and +0.9 show the evil is creeping back in again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shaft direction at impact also pops out as very good.

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Peter_b

[Peter_b]

In the above putts this is also striking that the path is left. Is it possible that I try to compensate a bad path (the shoving) by an open clubface and overdoing the compensation? Maybe not a compensation but path leaving putter open?

What body motion would produce a slight loop by  going across from on plane to in as that is what is happening. 

 

 

from 0 at transition to -3 falling below the putterplane. Why?

(path is from the putts above)

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Peter_b

[Peter_b]

I end up below the path, the laser should run parallel to the line. Why? What am I doing wrong in the downswing to fall below right from the start of the downswing?

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Peter_b

[jomatty]

14 hours ago, Peter_b said:

 

All those putts i did just square to where the putter head was aligned. No hole involved. Just really trying to set down the putter behind the ball and getting the Putter back within faceangle +-0.8 degree. Its not alignment of anything. If it was I would have dialed that in easily.

 

Iacas nailed it at the beginning of the thread that I rotate the backswing too much. But why? What does this? I dont have the Blast  motion here and the Skypro does not show club rotation. I will check the rotation on the stabilised rail to know what rotation there should be. As I understand the Blast motion measures rotation to ground not the putter plane as it would be constantly 0 degree to putterplane.

 

Funny thing is also sometimes I get it right but loose it the next day or even hours and I dont know why, not consciously doing anything different.

 

After trying the Axys swing it was like this. I thought great if I lock everyhing down I can putt straight even if distance controll is utter crap with that method. 

 

 

 

then next day not doing anything consciously different:

 

 

Not to harp on this but when my numbers looked almost identical to yours it was because I was setting up with a closed putter face.  Once I opened the putter face to actually point it at the hole things started getting better.  The way blast motion reads putts, it doesn’t know if you are set up with the putter pointing at the target or not, so if you start with the putter closed it will get you numbers like yours. 
anyways, I feel your pain!  This reminds me so much of what I went through during a bad stretch of putting and trying to use blast motion to help fix it.  It is so infuriating to roll a bunch of putts under 1 degree and think you are making progress and then have it just go away and be terrible again.  Good Luck!!

Edited June 12, 2023 by jomatty

[bladehunter]

17 hours ago, Peter_b said:

 

There is certain methods I will not do, I will not use a broomstick and I will not anchor the putter Dechambeau like to my left arm. I will also not use a ultra short putter, dunno 28 inch or something, like a friend of mine that now gets below 30 putts per round with a style that looks ridiculous and is super uncomfy. Sidesaddle is one of those methods. I want to have fun putting. Even Axys style was really borderlining what I was willing to do. The numbers up there are just so good I had to give in.

My prefered style would be Utley orbiting elbows, no torso and slight shoulder girdles but I never got the desired numbers out of that style. But is has the most finesse, touch and distance control and most of all it makes fun.

I get what you’re saying.  I do. I’m as traditional in preference as anyone. BUT…….

 

putting will absolutely break you eventually . You absolutely have to get into a position that both allows you to see down the line( alignment ) , AND allows a stroke that starts it on that line. 
 

i can see for sure that you’re currently data locked.  You won’t data your way out of this.  Not when your goal is a traditional setup and approach.
 

I’d bet $100 easily that you could get the proper lie angle LAB putter ( mezz non armlock ) and instantly destroy your data set with that one.  If numbers are the goal.  Take the shortcut and try it.  If not. Throw the data away and go try to find the feel.  In my opinion you can’t straddle this fence.  

Edited June 12, 2023 by bladehunter