Thinking about speed training

[Longdriver295]

I've been thinking about starting some speed training like the Stack system. I'm a little scared about this because of my back issues. Im about 92ss with driver and would like to get into the upper 90s. I'm about to turn 50 in couple months and even though Ive been in low 90s for last few years I'm afraid I'm gonna start losing SS and distance if I don't start some kind of training. Which would be a better system for someone wanting some extra SS and yardage with some health issues?

[hammersia]

Just to observe that in the history of WRX, nobody who has made a post like this has ever, actually, done the training. 

 

Serious advice - 

 

1) Proper stretching routine, daily or every couple of days (which is tough).

2) Whichever protocol you use, you will have to get hot and sweaty and out of breath (which is also tough).

 

[bluedot]

Here’s my perfect world answer:

 

Get to a professional TPI-type, and figure out what it is that currently keeps you from swinging faster, then address THAT.

 

it may be that all you need to do is to train your body to swing faster, but that isn’t the case for the vast majority of golfers, especially as we age.  It could be technique, but it could also be a mobility issue, especially in your hips.  You mention back pain, and I think most TPI guys would tell you that lower back pain is a result of another issue that’s causing you to use your lumbar spine to move your upper body, which it is NOT designed to do.

 

Speed training is great “low hanging fruit” for a very small subset of golfers, and you MIGHT be in that sunset.  Mathematically, that isn’t likely, and depending on the condition of your body and the speed training protocol you follow, it could an injury waiting to happen.

[Longdriver295]

37 minutes ago, bluedot said:

Here’s my perfect world answer:

 

Get to a professional TPI-type, and figure out what it is that currently keeps you from swinging faster, then address THAT.

 

it may be that all you need to do is to train your body to swing faster, but that isn’t the case for the vast majority of golfers, especially as we age.  It could be technique, but it could also be a mobility issue, especially in your hips.  You mention back pain, and I think most TPI guys would tell you that lower back pain is a result of another issue that’s causing you to use your lumbar spine to move your upper body, which it is NOT designed to do.

 

Speed training is great “low hanging fruit” for a very small subset of golfers, and you MIGHT be in that sunset.  Mathematically, that isn’t likely, and depending on the condition of your body and the speed training protocol you follow, it could an injury waiting to happen.

It could very well be a mobility issue. For one I'm a pretty big guy about 6'1" and 250. My back swing only gets about 3/4 full. So to generate 92 with that is pretty good. I have always been a decent ball striker and I usually play in the Low 70s. My irons are decent distance PW 120 7 iron 145 (These are carry). Irons short game and putting are my strength, Driver I'm in fairway 95% of the Time in that 235-240 range. Driver distance is my overall weakness. 

[stryper]

The Par4success guys are pretty adamant that you’ll probably gain as much or more speed by addressing your physical limitations as you will from any of the popular stick protocols out there.  Also, you’re likely to hurt yourself if your body is unable to handle the requirements of these protocols.  And I tend to agree.

 

A few years ago I picked up some sticks, worked diligently with them, and had moderate success gaining speed, but ultimately couldn’t keep up with the program.  That fell by the wayside, and eventually as the calendar pages kept flipping, I saw my SS dip way into geriatric territory.  Mid to high 80’s, whereas 105-ish used to be the norm.  
 

Now for the last several months I’ve been concentrating on my overall fitness, emphasizing core

above all else.  My most recent speed check had me at an average of 99.6 mph.  So at 63y/o I think I’m moving in the right direction.

 

I have no affiliation with par4sucess, but I’m a big believer in TPI, using a lot of their material.  Also into TRX training quite a bit.  Lots of options to consider.  GolfForever looks good too.

 

Good luck.

 

https://par4success.com/

https://golfforever.com/
https://www.mytpi.com/exercises/

 

[bluedot]

13 minutes ago, stryper said:

The Par4success guys are pretty adamant that you’ll probably gain as much or more speed by addressing your physical limitations as you will from any of the popular stick protocols out there.  Also, you’re likely to hurt yourself if your body is unable to handle the requirements of these protocols.  And I tend to agree.

 

A few years ago I picked up some sticks, worked diligently with them, and had moderate success gaining speed, but ultimately couldn’t keep up with the program.  That fell by the wayside, and eventually as the calendar pages kept flipping, I saw my SS dip way into geriatric territory.  Mid to high 80’s, whereas 105-ish used to be the norm.  
 

Now for the last several months I’ve been concentrating on my overall fitness, emphasizing core

above all else.  My most recent speed check had me at an average of 99.6 mph.  So at 63y/o I think I’m moving in the right direction.

 

I have no affiliation with par4sucess, but I’m a big believer in TPI, using a lot of their material.  Also into TRX training quite a bit.  Lots of options to consider.  GolfForever looks good too.

 

Good luck.

 

https://par4success.com/

https://golfforever.com/
https://www.mytpi.com/exercises/

 

As it happens, I've been a Par4Success client for the last 4 years, beginning at age 67; I got sent there by a teaching pro because he suspected that I had hip mobility issues.  We were doing a full swing rebuild, and I was strong enough and flexible enough, but the hip turn he wanted just wasn't happening.  On top of that, I had been doing Super Speed religiously for about 6 months prior, with no on-course gains at all.  And I was fit and healthy, btw; always a runner, worked out 2-3 times a week, etc.

 

Long story short, I've been with them ever since, doing workouts tailored to ME.  I asked them right out of the chute about the speed training, and the answer was, "You're already swinging as fast as your body will tolerate; trying to add speed currently is a serious risk of injury, with no real gains possible."  Ironically, I'm longer NOW than I was 10 years ago; better technique, and MUCH better mobility.  I still ask from time to time about speed training, and the answer is always the same; do the rotational work that we are giving you, and you WILL get faster.

 

Here are two links that might be helpful, and keep you from either wasting time and energy to no benefit, and/or getting injured.

 

https://simplifaster.com/articles/overspeed-training-beyond-maximal-velocity/

https://www.mytpi.com/articles/fitness/4_steps_to_more_rotational_power

 

And fwiw, the founder-owner of Par4Success, Chris Finn is a plus handicap who has done a TON of research into speed training.  If you DO go down that road, his research is a better guideline to what works and what doesn't than companies who make money selling sticks and giving away protocols that are "one size fits all".

[doctor220]

1 hour ago, bluedot said:

As it happens, I've been a Par4Success client for the last 4 years, beginning at age 67; I got sent there by a teaching pro because he suspected that I had hip mobility issues.  We were doing a full swing rebuild, and I was strong enough and flexible enough, but the hip turn he wanted just wasn't happening.  On top of that, I had been doing Super Speed religiously for about 6 months prior, with no on-course gains at all.  And I was fit and healthy, btw; always a runner, worked out 2-3 times a week, etc.

 

Long story short, I've been with them ever since, doing workouts tailored to ME.  I asked them right out of the chute about the speed training, and the answer was, "You're already swinging as fast as your body will tolerate; trying to add speed currently is a serious risk of injury, with no real gains possible."  Ironically, I'm longer NOW than I was 10 years ago; better technique, and MUCH better mobility.  I still ask from time to time about speed training, and the answer is always the same; do the rotational work that we are giving you, and you WILL get faster.

 

Here are two links that might be helpful, and keep you from either wasting time and energy to no benefit, and/or getting injured.

 

https://simplifaster.com/articles/overspeed-training-beyond-maximal-velocity/

https://www.mytpi.com/articles/fitness/4_steps_to_more_rotational_power

 

And fwiw, the founder-owner of Par4Success, Chris Finn is a plus handicap who has done a TON of research into speed training.  If you DO go down that road, his research is a better guideline to what works and what doesn't than companies who make money selling sticks and giving away protocols that are "one size fits all".

Anyone who tells you that you are swinging as fast as your body can tolerate is a snake oil salesman. Think it’s strange you say stack is a conflict of interest but this guy selling you mobility programs you likely don’t need isn’t biased. 
 

you could def try the stack and see how you do, obviously stopping if it makes you back hurt. 
 

have personally added roughly 10 mph ball speed with the stack as a + handicap. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by doctor220

[doctor220]

2 hours ago, bluedot said:

Here’s my perfect world answer:

 

Get to a professional TPI-type, and figure out what it is that currently keeps you from swinging faster, then address THAT.

 

it may be that all you need to do is to train your body to swing faster, but that isn’t the case for the vast majority of golfers, especially as we age.  It could be technique, but it could also be a mobility issue, especially in your hips.  You mention back pain, and I think most TPI guys would tell you that lower back pain is a result of another issue that’s causing you to use your lumbar spine to move your upper body, which it is NOT designed to do.

 

Speed training is great “low hanging fruit” for a very small subset of golfers, and you MIGHT be in that sunset.  Mathematically, that isn’t likely, and depending on the condition of your body and the speed training protocol you follow, it could an injury waiting to happen.

This is just a totally garbage, incorrect post. Most golfers don’t have mobility issues and simply have poor technique . Generally the easiest way for people to add speed is improve their technique. After that, it’s speed training and then a very very small minority will have mobility issues that preclude them from making a good golf swing , who can then focus on TPI type stuff which is largely overrated snake oil or meant to be sprinkles on top of a sundae. 

[getitdaily]

Change your handle to "shortknocker215" and watch your fortunes rise.

[Longdriver295]

This is a Iron but you can see from this my form and technique is not all bad. I have a decent Swing I just lack speed. 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Longdriver295

[bluedot]

1 hour ago, doctor220 said:

This is just a totally garbage, incorrect post. Most golfers don’t have mobility issues and simply have poor technique . Generally the easiest way for people to add speed is improve their technique. After that, it’s speed training and then a very very small minority will have mobility issues that preclude them from making a good golf swing , who can then focus on TPI type stuff which is largely overrated snake oil or meant to be sprinkles on top of a sundae. 

Thanks for the kind characterization of my post as “total garbage”.

 

For the record, I NEVER said that “most” golfers have mobility issues, and the first thing I mentioned as a limitation of a golfer’s ability to swing faster was technique.  I’m not sure how you know to a certainty that after technique that speed training comes next, but you’re certainly entitled to that opinion.  

 

I posted a couple of links that you might want to read.  The first is a meta study of research dome in multiple sports about swinging faster.  It’s fairly interesting, I think.

[Cellis]

1 hour ago, Longdriver295 said:

This is a Iron but you can see from this my form and technique is not all bad. I have a decent Swing I just lack speed. 

I think the comments regarding stretching are spot on though. Looking at this quick clip, I am sure a little bit more flexibility will gain you a couple MPH.

[hammersia]

1 hour ago, Longdriver295 said:

This is a Iron but you can see from this my form and technique is not all bad. I have a decent Swing I just lack speed. 

Not being funny, but that club looks a bit short in your hands - have you been fitted before? 

[bluedot]

2 hours ago, doctor220 said:

Anyone who tells you that you are swinging as fast as your body can tolerate is a snake oil salesman. Think it’s strange you say stack is a conflict of interest but this guy selling you mobility programs you likely don’t need isn’t biased. 
 

you could def try the stack and see how you do, obviously stopping if it makes you back hurt. 
 

have personally added roughly 10 mph ball speed with the stack as a + handicap. 

You seem really upset with what I’ve written; I’m not sure why.

 

Fwiw, I never mentioned The Stack, though I did mention Super Speed, and I’m glad that speed training has worked for you.  Given that you’re a plus index, your technique and physical capabilities probably made you part of the subset of golfers for whom speed training DOES work, and that’s great.  It’s a game changer for those folks, no question about it.  I NEVER said speed training doesn’t work; quite the contrary.  I DID say it doesn’t work for most golfers, and, based on the research I’ve read, I stand by that.

 

For the record, Par4Success never tried to sell me a thing.  I did an assessment with them at the recommendation of a top-shelf teaching pro that I was working with, and they showed me the results of the assessment in percentiles base on my age group.  What happened from there was up to me.

 

I had been working out anyway almost half a century, so I figured I’d try their stuff to see if it worked; speed training had NOT worked for me AT ALL.  And it did work.  I’ve stayed with them in part because of that, but also in part because they change my work lots every 8 weeks or so, which is of great mental value to me, whatever the physical benefits are.

 

What I advised the OP to do was to figure out what it is that currently limits his ability to swing faster; it was basically the first thing I wrote.  I stand by that statement.

 

 

[Longdriver295]

21 minutes ago, hammersia said:

Not being funny, but that club looks a bit short in your hands - have you been fitted before? 

Never in my life spent money to get fitted. This is ZX5 irons. My last score was a 70 but that's on a 5800yd course. But I'm in the Low to mid 70 score range up to 6500yd. So they may be short idk maybe if I got fitted I could shoot consistently in the 60s 😂

BTW this particular shot was a 130yd 9i and It was center of green. So not bad in my opinion. Also I'm 6' and from research calls for standard length so that's what I've always went by and have always been a decent player especially irons. That's why my focus is more on Driving distance than anything 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Longdriver295

[phizzy30]

6 hours ago, Longdriver295 said:

It could very well be a mobility issue. For one I'm a pretty big guy about 6'1" and 250. My back swing only gets about 3/4 full. So to generate 92 with that is pretty good. I have always been a decent ball striker and I usually play in the Low 70s. My irons are decent distance PW 120 7 iron 145 (These are carry). Irons short game and putting are my strength, Driver I'm in fairway 95% of the Time in that 235-240 range. Driver distance is my overall weakness. 

As hard as it's gonna be to hear this, it's gonna be tough to gain significant distance at your age.  Without assessing you as a personal trainer, I can't tell you what might work, but becoming more flexible and increasing mobility, especially in the shoulder and hips would be the bare minimum.  Strength training helps a little and so does doing explosive movement type exercises like plyometrics.  As someone else posted, speed training may hurt your game more than help so take that with a grain of salt.     

[Chunkitgood]

5 hours ago, Longdriver295 said:

This is a Iron but you can see from this my form and technique is not all bad. I have a decent Swing I just lack speed. 

Nothing personal, but your swing lacks some of the desiderata of a proper swing, as I understand them.  Those attributes of a proper swing exist for a reason, one of which is to generate and deliver to the ball as much energy as possible.  Lack of those attributes tends to lessen the energy delivered to the ball.

 

You may have demonstrated what I suspect is the quintessential GolfWRX “decent swing” of the “picker” type…but that does not mean there is not some room for improvement in technique that would result in higher club head and ball speed.

[Longdriver295]

25 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

Nothing personal, but your swing lacks some of the desiderata of a proper swing, as I understand them.  Those attributes of a proper swing exist for a reason, one of which is to generate and deliver to the ball as much energy as possible.  Lack of those attributes tends to lessen the energy delivered to the ball.

 

You may have demonstrated what I suspect is the quintessential GolfWRX “decent swing” of the “picker” type…but that does not mean there is not some room for improvement in technique that would result in higher club head and ball speed.

I never said I wasn't lacking things in my Swing that would make me a better Striker and more energy to the ball. Hell of I had all that I wouldn't be on WRX asking for recommendations I'd be on TV for y'all to watch 🤣 I never said I had a Awesome swing I just said a decent Swing (Which this swing does provide me with Scores in the Low 70s my lowest being a 70 just recently). So sure I don't have the Best Swing characteristics but I can play all day long with this. As I've stated I would just love to see 10 more yards with my driver and I'd call it good. 250 drives I'd play all day. I mean I'm doing Pretty well with 235-240 because I'm a "Decent" iron, wedge player and a good putter. BTW This shot was a 9i from 130 to center of Green, so I do put a little bit of energy into it cause a 130 9i is not all bad even though I would love to hit it 145

Edited July 19, 2023 by Longdriver295

[Longdriver295]

46 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

As hard as it's gonna be to hear this, it's gonna be tough to gain significant distance at your age.  Without assessing you as a personal trainer, I can't tell you what might work, but becoming more flexible and increasing mobility, especially in the shoulder and hips would be the bare minimum.  Strength training helps a little and so does doing explosive movement type exercises like plyometrics.  As someone else posted, speed training may hurt your game more than help so take that with a grain of salt.     

I could care less about Significant distance, that's not what I'm after. Cause I know that's not happening. I'd just love to See 10 more yards off Driver to put me in that 250 range and I'd call it a day and play all day with that

Edited July 19, 2023 by Longdriver295

[MountainKing]

I'm 43 with a back surgery and bigger than you in the pounds and also don't get close to paralle since surgery. .  I can still hit 110ss.  Honestly,  before doing any training,  go see a good instructor to make sure you're swing is mechanically sound.   Bad swing mechanics will limit you more than a lack of flexibility.

[Chunkitgood]

3 hours ago, Longdriver295 said:

I never said I wasn't lacking things in my Swing that would make me a better Striker and more energy to the ball. Hell of I had all that I wouldn't be on WRX asking for recommendations I'd be on TV for y'all to watch 🤣 I never said I had a Awesome swing I just said a decent Swing (Which this swing does provide me with Scores in the Low 70s my lowest being a 70 just recently). So sure I don't have the Best Swing characteristics but I can play all day long with this. As I've stated I would just love to see 10 more yards with my driver and I'd call it good. 250 drives I'd play all day. I mean I'm doing Pretty well with 235-240 because I'm a "Decent" iron, wedge player and a good putter. BTW This shot was a 9i from 130 to center of Green, so I do put a little bit of energy into it cause a 130 9i is not all bad even though I would love to hit it 145

This may interest you:

 

http://www.howtoadvice.com/Preview/Uettddqg/the-golf-swing-and-center-of-gravity

 

It is unclear to me whether you’re unwillingness to consider swing changes is due to your health issues, in which case you have my sympathy, or an over valuation of the quality of your swing as it is.  The way you describe your game frankly suggests the latter.  I  simply suggest you have clearly identifiable things in your swing that differ from the characteristics of a swing typically thought to give maximum distance, including what is discussed in the above piece just as an example.  Frankly, it looks like you are taking a divot behind the ball and are hitting up on the ball, adding loft.  Adding club head speed is not a realistic solution for such a swing, or at least it never worked for me when I had that sort of swing,  Whether you can or want to evaluate your swing and make changes is up to you.

 

 

 

[Jifmoli]

Speed training while back issues? Good luck but take it slow.. core strength and flexibility will be key.

 

As I get older I found that I need to work harder and more regular to stay at the same fitness level. Swing-wise, I rotate my hips more than before to maintain distances - am just not that flexible anymore

Edited July 19, 2023 by Jifmoli

[hammersia]

13 hours ago, Longdriver295 said:

Never in my life spent money to get fitted. This is ZX5 irons. My last score was a 70 but that's on a 5800yd course. But I'm in the Low to mid 70 score range up to 6500yd. So they may be short idk maybe if I got fitted I could shoot consistently in the 60s 😂

BTW this particular shot was a 130yd 9i and It was center of green. So not bad in my opinion. Also I'm 6' and from research calls for standard length so that's what I've always went by and have always been a decent player especially irons. That's why my focus is more on Driving distance than anything 

Ok, but you were 6'1 at the start of the thread.

 

There's a lot you can do to optimise your technique, and your equipment.

 

 

[bluedot]

If you have never been fitted for a driver, and you’re looking for 10 yds more off the tee, consider it.  It all depends on what you’re using now and how well it fits you, of course, but a good club fitter might be able to find you 10 yards pretty easily.  
 

This is true for almost any golfer that’s never worked with a good club fitter, but imo it’s especially true (and important) for guys that are getting older and losing some swing speed.  Tweaking launch parameters and spin rates and so forth can absolutely make a 10 yd difference.  
 

I’m 71, and my top swing speed now is about the same as my lowest swing speed 10 years ago, and that’s despite a ton of work on technique, dedicated working out, and even speed training.  But I’ve been able to keep my distance by working with a really good club fitter over that time, and changing drivers when we found a way to get some yards back.  
 

The G30 gave me a higher launch and more carry without more spin.  The slightly smaller club head of the G400 gave me 3 mph of swing speed.  The Paradym X gave me lower spin and much better rollout.  So 3 changes in 10 years; I’m not throwing money at drivers and just hoping it works out, but there ARE yards to be had off the tee in many, many cases.

 

None of this means that technique, or mobility/strength/flexibility aren’t critical, and it doesn’t even mean that speed training won’t work for you.  A technically good swing is the best way to deliver the club to the ball at high speed, and your body has to be up to that task.  But what club you are swinging is a very big deal, too.