Wrist set - Zach Allen and hackmotion

[rondo01]

Zach Allen just posted this video and it was absolutely enlightening. Y’all enjoy. 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JfMk2bQrLU?si=omSvVz3VvfpZ1CKE

Edited September 13, 2023 by rondo01

[MPStrat]

Really good video. Early intentional radial deviation is something I’m not a fan of. 

 

The reason is because I think what some perceive as a lack of radial deviation or vertical hinge is actually more of the late elbow fold or the habit of staying too wide with the arms for too long. 
 

The late elbow fold is often paired with the late excessive radial deviation at the top of the swing he references. 
 

I don’t mind an earlier trail wrist set, meaning the trail wrist moving toward extension earlier, and I don’t mind folding the trail elbow  earlier, but earlier vertical c0cking or radial deviation I don’t like at all. 

 

Like Zach says, I think many golfers who do this would feel like there is no radial deviation at all in the swing if they did what Tigers graph shows. 

[MonteScheinblum]

Such a good video, I see a boat load of people regularly who do this.  Especially the ones who learned to play with a lag head in their ear.

 

The opposite extreme, and we have seen many of these people post their swing here, is ones who actually ulnar deviate (unhinge) to p3 where their lead arm and shaft are almost a straight line, or they are nowhere near 90* with shaft and lead arm, and the end result is usually the same.  Excess hinge at the top and down loading, with a massive quick unloading.

 

 

[MK7Golf21]

The ol Charles Barkley swing is the way to go, load that hinge on the downswing and dive to the ground.

[getitdaily]

Good video. 

 

This is another device I'd like to get data from. Maybe the AMG guys will put that on me while I hit off the pressure plates. Get a boatload of data and stuff to work on until March. 

[MPStrat]

14 minutes ago, getitdaily said:

Good video. 

 

This is another device I'd like to get data from. Maybe the AMG guys will put that on me while I hit off the pressure plates. Get a boatload of data and stuff to work on until March. 

You headed to this?

 

[Zitlow]

If the video resonates it just goes to show that we're fed a sh*t ton of misinformation about the golf swing here such as the clubhead goes first in the backswing with an early wrist c0ck. 

[getitdaily]

11 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

You headed to this?

 

Heck no. Lol. 

 

Gonna do a session there soon. Just not sure if I go there for pressure plates and then back to my instructor for the last setup changes to finalize my swing changes or reverse the order. 

 

My wife's been on me about retiling the house for 3 years and I always fend it off. If I did that, she'd have tilers in the house before I got home from the first day. Lol.

[Scottbox]

Everyone is different. I actually need to feel early wrist hinge to get the club on plane. And I have a strong grip, so a little "cupping" at the top and a deep wrist set are good matchups for me.

[MPStrat]

2 minutes ago, Scottbox said:

I have a strong grip, so a little "cupping" at the top and a deep wrist set are good matchups for me.

Yes this is what many of the long drive guys do. Strong grips and a lot of cupping/radial

 

Sounds like you have an understanding of your matchups which is good

 

I wouldn’t recommend this for everyone

[getitdaily]

15 minutes ago, Scottbox said:

Everyone is different. I actually need to feel early wrist hinge to get the club on plane. And I have a strong grip, so a little "cupping" at the top and a deep wrist set are good matchups for me.

I need to feel like I set early too. It used to be because I stayed too wide for too long. Now, I'm not sure why it works better...helps quiet the hips a touch to p1.5 maybe...

[Nels55]

Interesting video.  The best that I can determine in my own swing is that trail hand extension late in the downswing produces clubhead speed and solid shots.  Radial deviation of the lead wrist on the backswing does seem to make it harder to hit the ball well with my current neutral lead hand grip.  When I had a really strong lead hand grip the radial move was in line and loaded the trail wrist extension so it was possibly okay.  LOL don't know if that makes any sense?  

 

I think that the correct movement for any individual may depend a lot on how the wrists move.  For instance I would love to see the same graph for Ben Hogan as I understand that he could touch his lead thumb to his forearm which would suggest a high degree of radial deviation potential which might have effected how he swung.  Too bad hack motion was not around back in his prime I guess.

[GungHoGolf]

3 hours ago, Nels55 said:

For instance I would love to see the same graph for Ben Hogan as I understand that he could touch his lead thumb to his forearm which would suggest a high degree of radial deviation potential

Got a source for that? If true he was an anatomical freak.

[Rdailey9108]

Hmm I could get a used hack motion pro for 300$ on ebay. Very tempting. I'm actually shocked at the results of the video though. 

[MonteScheinblum]

10 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

Got a source for that? If true he was an anatomical freak.

Let’s assume it’s true.

 

The number of golfers, including tour players, who could sequence that correctly and unload it correctly is statistically 0.

[Nels55]

5 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

Got a source for that? If true he was an anatomical freak.

Nope, I read it somewhere maybe in a magazine or a book and I think it was a quote by someone who knew Hogan personally.  My M.A.T. practitioner can it do it but her wrist is in flexion when she does.  She does have more radial deviation then I have actually quite a bit if I remember correctly.  I do believe that range of motion of the wrists is probably a factor in determining optimum swing mechanics but I don't have any concrete evidence of that. Just speculation... 

[MonteScheinblum]

7 minutes ago, Rdailey9108 said:

Hmm I could get a used hack motion pro for 300$ on ebay. Very tempting. I'm actually shocked at the results of the video though. 

Almost universally golfers on hack motion find they

 

1. Radial hinge early and excessively

or

2. Late and excessively

 

[Nels55]

2 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Almost universally golfers on hack motion find they

 

1. Radial hinge early and excessively

or

2. Late and excessively

 

Do you also measure extension flexion of the trail wrist with this device?  

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

48 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Do you also measure extension flexion of the trail wrist with this device?  

 

 

I haven’t done much trail wrist stuff with it.  I find whatever feel the golf wants (right-left wrist) we see the results on lead wrist.

 

 

 

 

[Carlito]

Brilliant video. Thank you.

Maybe a part of the solution is to hinge (radial deviate) it in a 45 degree angle? 2 min mark.

 

[KD1]

What are the angles relative to? Or how are they zeroed by the sensor?

[GungHoGolf]

12 minutes ago, KD1 said:

What are the angles relative to? Or how are they zeroed by the sensor?

You zero it after putting it on by holding your hand out straight with a flat wrist.

[Simpsonia]

27 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

You zero it after putting it on by holding your hand out straight with a flat wrist.

 

This is one of the things I was curious about Zach comparing his absolute numbers to Tiger's. Everything I've read about Hackmotion is that you should look more at the amplitude and timing of the graphs rather than the absolute values since those are so highly dependent on calibration that it would be extremely difficult for two separate units to be calibrated where the absolute values register the same. 

[Zitlow]

When will we see another wow video? The NWC Swing - Wow! No Wrist c0ck Swing. 

[Scottbox]

17 hours ago, getitdaily said:

I need to feel like I set early too. It used to be because I stayed too wide for too long. Now, I'm not sure why it works better...helps quiet the hips a touch to p1.5 maybe...

I think it's because the "up" part helps keep you centered. If I try to get "wide", I tend to sway and get to tilted to the right with no back extension (I'm a lefty). Then everything becomes a big slide and dump out to left field.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Scottbox

[Giocatore4]

21 hours ago, rondo01 said:

Zach Allen just posted this video and it was absolutely enlightening. Y’all enjoy. 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JfMk2bQrLU?si=omSvVz3VvfpZ1CKE

I heard that we aren’t supposed to watch YouTube, just hit balls. 😂

[MonteScheinblum]

The big discussion here, and it’s what Zach is saying ( I know this because we had this discussion about 5 years ago), avoid extreme movements.

 

Under or late hinging is just as bad as early over hinging.  They tend to lead to the same issue.

 

The club head moves before the body, but if you over do it, that’s bad too.

 

You don’t have to know anything about the golf swing, you just need common sense.  If you want everything to arrive at the top of the swing at the same time, the thing that has the most distance to travel (club head) has to move first and the thing that has the least distance to travel (the hips) move last.

 

Tiger called taking the hands and wrists out of the swing “stupid.”

 

When you look at most elite golfers, at left arm parallel, especially with an iron, you see pretty close to a 90* angle between the lead arm and shaft at p3….and not far off with the driver.  
 

I see way more golfers with a severe obtuse angle at P3 than I do those that have over hinged.  That leads to the body rotation maxing out very early and then the brain tries to get the club to catch-up and you get arm over run and over hinge.

 

Here is Tiger hitting a wood and well known “no hinge” Steve Stricker hitting an iron.  Sticker’s camera angle makes it look a little more hinged than it actually is, but still, you have Tiger with a wood and Mr. No Hinge pretty close to 90*, but I see golfers all day every day on the red line in Sticker’s frame.  Then you look at Rose with an iron and wood at 90*.  He’s important because he’s more neutral in his swing movements than most….or all.  Then there’s Hogan.  
 

If you’re getting to 90* with driver by p3, what is moving the most and earliest?
 

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

15 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

Got a source for that? If true he was an anatomical freak.

Might just have double jointed thumbs.  My 15 year old son can do this.  And I can’t - my thumbs aren’t double jointed. yet at 43 I can pull my knee to my chest standing with zero issues. And he cannot come close.  And he’s a 10 mile a day runner. Human body is weird.  😂

[MonteScheinblum]

5 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

 

This is one of the things I was curious about Zach comparing his absolute numbers to Tiger's. Everything I've read about Hackmotion is that you should look more at the amplitude and timing of the graphs rather than the absolute values since those are so highly dependent on calibration that it would be extremely difficult for two separate units to be calibrated where the absolute values register the same. 

Not an unfair statement, but the point he’s making is way more important than micro analyzing the minutia of his comparison maybe not being perfect.  

[KD1]

Am I on the right track here?: These guys grip in the club in their fingers, across their fingers, and they address the ball with the hands relatively close to the body such that the shaft is not as far from 90* at address to begin with. So through the swing there is (relatively) minimal vertical hinge?

 

Whereas the amateur might need the excess vertical movement because of setup issues? bad grip and/or reaching out too far to the ball so they're starting out "under-hinged" and have to compensate? Maybe EE forces excess unhinging to reach the ball and we're all caught up in a cycle?

Edited September 14, 2023 by KD1