Tad confused about my hooking issue

[IMAway]

I've been battling a bad case of hooks/duck hooks.  I know the issue is a closed face (sometimes severely closed) at impact.  I've tried multiple things to correct this - obviously weakening my very strong grip was the first idea.  The problem with that is, I love my strong grip and don't want to change it - and when I weaken it, too much fade/slice appears.  I recently tried the "flying wedge" concept of keeping the bend in the right wrist intact, longer.  That actually seems to work pretty good, but somewhat difficult to repeat.  I know that would be easier with more repetition. 

 

Here's what I'm confused about.  I have a pretty upright back swing, and definitely don't get my hands "deep enough".   Point being, I don't think my path is too far from the inside, due to my upright back swing and not much depth with my hands.  I guess I could still somehow come from the inside anyways, but I don't think that's the case.  Whereas, I 100% know that my face is severely closed at impact, hence, the flying wedge being a benefit as the face is no longer slammed shut.  

 

So, now my question.  I'm at the range after playing 18 and getting my fair share of hooks.  Not nearly as many, as I was really trying to use the flying wedge concept.  I was specifically trying to work on not hooking the ball, slight draws/fades are fine.  A local instructor wanders by, real nice guy - but from previous interactions with him, he seems to have just the typical instructor jargon.  He's not someone I would take lessons with, but we chat sometimes.  So he asks how I'm hitting them, and I explain the hook problem.  He watches me hit a few, and mentions I have a very upright back swing, which I knew.  He tells me to try to take it a little flatter/more around my body (which I definitely have difficulty doing).  So I try to do what he's saying... I proceed to hit many nice shots, and I didn't have to consciously think or try to keep the right wrist bent (flying wedge concept).  I actually could just swing how I normally do - and for some reason, the face was no longer shut.  What I can't figure out is why this worked???  Wouldn't deeper hands/ slightly flatter back swing make the path more from the inside??  Or by doing this, did it (and this is the part that really baffles me) somehow correct the closed face issue by some unknown reason (unknown to me).

 

Strange game

Edited October 14, 2023 by IMAway

[tthomasgolfer605]

16 minutes ago, IMAway said:

I've been battling a bad case of hooks/duck hooks.  I know the issue is a closed face (sometimes severely closed) at impact.  I've tried multiple things to correct this - obviously weakening my very strong grip was the first idea.  The problem with that is, I love my strong grip and don't want to change it - and when I weaken it, too much fade/slice appears.  I recently tried the "flying wedge" concept of keeping the bend in the right wrist intact, longer.  That actually seems to work pretty good, but somewhat difficult to repeat.  I know that would be easier with more repetition. 

 

Here's what I'm confused about.  I have a pretty upright back swing, and definitely don't get my hands "deep enough".   Point being, I don't think my path is too far from the inside, due to my upright back swing and not much depth with my hands.  I guess I could still somehow come from the inside anyways, but I don't think that's the case.  Whereas, I 100% know that my face is severely closed at impact, hence, the flying wedge being a benefit as the face is no longer slammed shut.  

 

So, now my question.  I'm at the range after playing 18 and getting my fair share of hooks.  Not nearly as many, as I was really trying to use the flying wedge concept.  I was specifically trying to work on not hooking the ball, slight draws/fades are fine.  A local instructor wanders by, real nice guy - but from previous interactions with him, he seems to have just the typical instructor jargon.  He's not someone I would take lessons with, but we chat sometimes.  So he asks how I'm hitting them, and I explain the hook problem.  He watches me hit a few, and mentions I have a very upright back swing, which I knew.  He tells me to try to take it a little flatter/more around my body (which I definitely have difficulty doing).  So I try to do what he's saying... I proceed to hit many nice shots, and I didn't have to consciously think or try to keep the right wrist bent (flying wedge concept).  I actually could just swing how I normally do - and for some reason, the face was no longer shut.  What I can't figure out is why this worked???  Wouldn't deeper hands/ slightly flatter back swing make the path more from the inside??  Or by doing this, did it (and this is the part that really baffles me) somehow correct the closed face issue by some unknown reason (unknown to me).

 

Strange game

Maybe you should take lessons from him. 

[wagolfer7]

10 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Maybe you should take lessons from him. 

Nah he only has typical instructor jargon. OP needs fancy words and gadgets. 

[Ri_Redneck]

I play a strong grip also and have had the hooks creep in from time to time. For me it happens when I don't have AND maintain enough rear bend (tilt right for right hander) at address. I get too upright and my shoulders get ahead of my arms (swing feels more upright) prematurely closing the face. When I return to my correct setup, my swing feels a bit flatter even though it is the same with a different shoulder setup. Could this possibly be what you did?

 

BT

[IMAway]

1 hour ago, wagolfer7 said:

Nah he only has typical instructor jargon. OP needs fancy words and gadgets. 

Please show me where I said anything even like that.  Geez.... if you've got nothing helpful to say....

[IMAway]

1 hour ago, Ri_Redneck said:

I play a strong grip also and have had the hooks creep in from time to time. For me it happens when I don't have AND maintain enough rear bend (tilt right for right hander) at address. I get too upright and my shoulders get ahead of my arms (swing feels more upright) prematurely closing the face. When I return to my correct setup, my swing feels a bit flatter even though it is the same with a different shoulder setup. Could this possibly be what you did?

 

BT

Very possibly.  I will make that a point of focus tomorrow.  Thanks for the idea.  Much appreciated.

[tthomasgolfer605]

19 minutes ago, IMAway said:

Very possibly.  I will make that a point of focus tomorrow.  Thanks for the idea.  Much appreciated.

So, an instructor cures your hook and you want to complicate matters with people that never saw your swing? Makes no sense. 

[IMAway]

7 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

So, an instructor cures your hook and you want to complicate matters with people that never saw your swing? Makes no sense. 

I don’t think trying to add some side tilt is a bad idea

Edited October 15, 2023 by IMAway

[getitdaily]

That's what they all say in front of the judge

[SNIPERBBB]

I would wonder that with the upright back swing that you're hitting more of an OTT hook. 

[IMAway]

17 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I would wonder that with the upright back swing that you're hitting more of an OTT hook. 

Probably yes.  The ball was definitely starting left and going further left fast.  But making the back swing a little less upright and just a tad flatter - I still don’t understand how that straightened out the ball flight.  Why would the face come in relatively square instead of closed.  I was still very active with my hands/wrists (on purpose). But I guess if it works, it works.

[SNIPERBBB]

44 minutes ago, IMAway said:

Probably yes.  The ball was definitely starting left and going further left fast.  But making the back swing a little less upright and just a tad flatter - I still don’t understand how that straightened out the ball flight.  Why would the face come in relatively square instead of closed.  I was still very active with my hands/wrists (on purpose). But I guess if it works, it works.

With an OTT hook  your face to path was effectively more closed.  If you flatten your BS a bit, it should shift that to ratio closer to neutral, all else being equal. And/or you might be opening the club face more in the BS being less upright. 

[IMAway]

9 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

With an OTT hook  your face to path was effectively more closed.  If you flatten your BS a bit, it should shift that to ratio closer to neutral, all else being equal. And/or you might be opening the club face more in the BS being less upright. 

Good points, thank you 

[doctor220]

Face follows path. If you swing more right the face will generally be more open. If the ball is starting left and going further left, as you said the issue is more likely face rather than path. 
 

if you have a very strong grip you could just make it less strong, it doesn’t have to be weak  

[IMAway]

36 minutes ago, doctor220 said:

Face follows path. If you swing more right the face will generally be more open. If the ball is starting left and going further left, as you said the issue is more likely face rather than path. 
 

if you have a very strong grip you could just make it less strong, it doesn’t have to be weak  

I think you're right.  By swing even just a tad flatter (believe me, it's still upright) I think that opened up the face enough to make it very playable.  And, I have tried to make my grip a little less strong.  Just doesn't feel right... although I'm sure over time it would.  Thanks.

[KMeloney]

On 10/14/2023 at 11:19 PM, SNIPERBBB said:

With an OTT hook  your face to path was effectively more closed.  If you flatten your BS a bit, it should shift that to ratio closer to neutral, all else being equal. And/or you might be opening the club face more in the BS being less upright. 

 

I think this is absolutely it. It's likely not just the lack of depth, but also the idea that an upright backswing can make it easy to take the club back with the face shut (which then stays as shut -- or gets shut down even more -- on the downswing). I think the latter is a key component here that never gets discussed much anymore.

 

One of Monte's first ever videos was one where he put a ball on a "tee" up at chest height, and showed how the club and arms move if you were swinging on an essentially horizontal plane (and that the golf swing is essentially that same motion on a tilted plane). What always resonated with me from that video was the fact that the forearms and club face rotate "open" @ 90°, and then rotate back "closed" coming into the ball. I think it's crucial to have this happen, especially for players with strong grips. These days, when I hit a hook that's not from coming from way inside and flipping the face closed, I can always trace it back to me taking the club back hooded and having it just as hooded (or moreso) on a close-to-zero path. When I get my backswing flatter and more around me, then the opening of the club face happens more naturally, and the ball flight is usually really good.

 

Seems to me that nowadays that forearm rotation gets confused with fanning the face open (usually early and inside) -- and then you throw in the notion of "keeping the face looking at the ball" in the backswing, and using the "motorcycle move" to turn the face down in the downswing, and all that does is promote a hook/pull-hook for a lot of strong-grip players.

 

PS -- Another big contributor can be stalling your body turn and letting the arms/hands take over though impact. That helps me get the ball going much more left than I want. But, I'm also less inclined to stop turning when I get the other stuff correct.

[Admhowarth]

By going more around your body (behind) you are creating a 'backswing'. 

This will actually create space for you to shallow the club which will help you with club (and face path) and neutralize some of the closed face.

The steep backswing almost forces a steep downswing which you will fight and turn over with a closed face and resulting in a hook. 

Really think about turning to the right and getting an exagerated backswing over to the right side and the impact / ball flight should improve. 

[aggiegolfer21]

If you externally rotate your trail arm more, the club face will open and the swing will be flatter.  I would say it's highly likely that by trying to flatten out your swing, you started to do this.

[IMAway]

Much appreciate the last 3 responses.  Thanks guys