Ball Marked on Green - Unique Situation

[rzitup]

Had a unique situation happen this past weekend.

 

Fivesome, short dog leg par four, elevated green with steep front fall off.  Two players in bunkers, front right and left.  One player just short of the green, two players on the green.

I am in the front right bunker, and riding with one of the players on the green.  We pull up to the green, and the player in the front left bunker arrives at the same time.  We head down the hill towards the green.  I drop into the bunker (high lip, cant see much).  Player in the other bunker does the same, hits his shot decently out of the bunker, rakes it and exits.  I do the same.  

Five of us are now on the green.  

First to putt is the left front bunker player, who is about 20 feet above the hole.  He putts downhill to about 2 feet, and walks towards the hole to mark his ball.  As he is walking towards his ball he sees a mark on the green that isnt near anyone else, who are all waiting to putt.  Says "who's mark is this?".  One of the players who was first on the green says "that was where your ball was, I marked it".  As it turns out, after he hit it out of the bunker, the player on the green marked it because it was in his line, and kind of tossed it another 10 feet above the hole, on the green.  And now didnt tell him that he marked it, before he putt.  

 

I know the logical thing is for him to just go putt again from the right spot, but I am having trouble applying a rule to it?  What if he would have made the first putt?  At what point is it beyond rehitting (everyone holes out and walking towards the next hole)?

 

[iacas]

Did you begin to look up the Rules that might apply? How far did you get?

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, rzitup said:

Had a unique situation happen this past weekend.

 

Fivesome, short dog leg par four, elevated green with steep front fall off.  Two players in bunkers, front right and left.  One player just short of the green, two players on the green.

I am in the front right bunker, and riding with one of the players on the green.  We pull up to the green, and the player in the front left bunker arrives at the same time.  We head down the hill towards the green.  I drop into the bunker (high lip, cant see much).  Player in the other bunker does the same, hits his shot decently out of the bunker, rakes it and exits.  I do the same.  

Five of us are now on the green.  

First to putt is the left front bunker player, who is about 20 feet above the hole.  He putts downhill to about 2 feet, and walks towards the hole to mark his ball.  As he is walking towards his ball he sees a mark on the green that isnt near anyone else, who are all waiting to putt.  Says "who's mark is this?".  One of the players who was first on the green says "that was where your ball was, I marked it".  As it turns out, after he hit it out of the bunker, the player on the green marked it because it was in his line, and kind of tossed it another 10 feet above the hole, on the green.  And now didnt tell him that he marked it, before he putt.  

 

I know the logical thing is for him to just go putt again from the right spot, but I am having trouble applying a rule to it?  What if he would have made the first putt?  At what point is it beyond rehitting (everyone holes out and walking towards the next hole)?

 

There was a Decision (15.3b/3) in the pre-2019 Rules which described this situation, the answer was this:

When a ball is lifted, it is out of play - see Definition of "Ball in Play."  When A played a stroke with his ball which was out of lay, he played a wrong ball.

If A knew that B had lifted his ball, he incurred a penalty of two strokes under Rule 15.3b and was required to replace his ball on the correct spot and play out the hole.

If A did not know that B had lifted his ball, A could not be penalized for playing a wrong ball.  If he became aware of the mistake before playing from the next tee, he was required to replace his ball on the correct spot, without penalty, and complete the hole.  If he learned of the mistake after playing from the next tee, the score with the wrong ball would stand and there would be no penalty.

 

According to the Mapping Summary (which traces old Rules and Decisions into the 2019 Rules), the outcome of that Decision was not changed, and it's now in Rule 9.6 (Ball moved by outside influence) and Rule 6.3c (Wrong Ball), although the specifics aren't as clear as they were in 15.3b/3.

[rzitup]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Did you begin to look up the Rules that might apply? How far did you get?

Yes I did.  I didnt read all 244 pages though and didnt find anything directly relevant.  Do you have something to contribute?

[rzitup]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

There was a Decision (15.3b/3) in the pre-2019 Rules which described this situation, the answer was this:

When a ball is lifted, it is out of play - see Definition of "Ball in Play."  When A played a stroke with his ball which was out of lay, he played a wrong ball.

If A knew that B had lifted his ball, he incurred a penalty of two strokes under Rule 15.3b and was required to replace his ball on the correct spot and play out the hole.

If A did not know that B had lifted his ball, A could not be penalized for playing a wrong ball.  If he became aware of the mistake before playing from the next tee, he was required to replace his ball on the correct spot, without penalty, and complete the hole.  If he learned of the mistake after playing from the next tee, the score with the wrong ball would stand and there would be no penalty.

 

According to the Mapping Summary (which traces old Rules and Decisions into the 2019 Rules), the outcome of that Decision was not changed, and it's now in Rule 9.6 (Ball moved by outside influence) and Rule 6.3c (Wrong Ball), although the specifics aren't as clear as they were in 15.3b/3.

 

Thanks

[iacas]

1 minute ago, rzitup said:

Yes I did.  I didnt read all 244 pages though and didnt find anything directly relevant.  Do you have something to contribute?

 

I was trying to encourage you to poke around a bit yourself rather than just having you wait for someone to give you an answer. Encouraging you to poke around may lead you to the answer, but it will almost surely make you more familiar with the Rules. Then, the next time you have a question, even if not this time, you can perhaps solve it without having to wait for someone else to reply.

 

In trying to answer the question, you'd look at the titles of the Rules and probably hit upon Rule 9 - "Ball at Rest Lifted or Moved." If you clicked on (or turned to) that Rule, you'd see… "Ball Lifted or Moved by Outside Influence." If you read that, it gets you most of the way toward what @rogolf said.

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I was trying to encourage you to poke around a bit yourself rather than just having you wait for someone to give you an answer.

 

Sadly, the average Joe will start with Google which will likely get them nowhere or if it leads somewhere the info will be out of date. 

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, sui generis said:

Sadly, the average Joe will start with Google which will likely get them nowhere or if it leads somewhere the info will be out of date. 

 

Probably, yeah.

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=1

 

Just bookmark that one, folks. (I have a script that I can activate with a keyboard shortcut that prompts me for the rule number, so I can type "9" and press enter and go to https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=9 too.)

[Valtiel]

6 hours ago, rzitup said:

As it turns out, after he hit it out of the bunker, the player on the green marked it because it was in his line, and kind of tossed it another 10 feet above the hole, on the green.  And now didnt tell him that he marked it, before he putt.  

Aside from the rule component, this guy was a f****** doofus. 😅

[Mr. Bean]

16 hours ago, rogolf said:

There was a Decision (15.3b/3) in the pre-2019 Rules which described this situation, the answer was this:

When a ball is lifted, it is out of play - see Definition of "Ball in Play."  When A played a stroke with his ball which was out of lay, he played a wrong ball.

If A knew that B had lifted his ball, he incurred a penalty of two strokes under Rule 15.3b and was required to replace his ball on the correct spot and play out the hole.

If A did not know that B had lifted his ball, A could not be penalized for playing a wrong ball.  If he became aware of the mistake before playing from the next tee, he was required to replace his ball on the correct spot, without penalty, and complete the hole.  If he learned of the mistake after playing from the next tee, the score with the wrong ball would stand and there would be no penalty.

 

According to the Mapping Summary (which traces old Rules and Decisions into the 2019 Rules), the outcome of that Decision was not changed, and it's now in Rule 9.6 (Ball moved by outside influence) and Rule 6.3c (Wrong Ball), although the specifics aren't as clear as they were in 15.3b/3.

 

Current Clarification is 9.6/4 with more or less identical content.