New to the Persimmon Game, What do I Have and What Should I Get?

[vintagemngolfer]

Currently I have three different makes of wood drivers, but I'm having a hard time identifying them and the years they were made. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Also, I've noticed that I am hitting the Top Flite Pro Model #28 much better than the MacGregor MT driver, but I really like the MacGregor brand and would love to have the woods to accompany my CF4000's. If you have any recommendations on which woods to try and get I would greatly appreciate it! I've heard the M75 and M85 are good, any others to keep an eye out for?
 

[ezgoer]

I’m unsure of the year of the Top Flite. Guessing late 70’s early 80’s. Being laminated not persimmon gives it a particular value that isn’t monetary. You don’t have to worry about what kind of golf ball to use so it’s a great range practice club. If you like it hang onto it for that reason. Couple laminates I have seem heavier and higher lofted so are friendlier to hit.
Unsure which CF iron you have but Mac made them about 58-62?? so that Mac MT persimmon could be 66-71?? and a pretty nice match. I have a 66 that looks similar. It’s a nice persimmon. 
Yeah M75-85’s might be the most common of the big 4 Macs and would be a great match. 
Another thing to consider is later persimmon’s. While not period to your irons they are more available and usually a lot more affordable. Late 70’s through 80’s Rams, Power Builts, Palmers, Hogan’s and Cleveland’s are excellent choices. Sure I’m leaving other fine brands out.

Also I’d recommend not being brand specific. I started out being a Mac guy but now I just like good old clubs. 
I have 2 of the big 4 Mac’s (M85, 693)  and they are great to hit. I’m not a good enough golfer to really notice the difference in the desirable “old persimmon” though. Yeah they may be a little heavier than a newer club but those 50’s shafts are beastly also. 

 

Edited January 10 by ezgoer

[Stephen8802]

I agree with Eric's advice. Start with something 80s and them move on to classic 50s/early 60s Macs after you get a feel for the clubs. I love Clevelands, Palmers, and Hogans, any of those would be great. There are tons of PowerBilt's out there, from late 70s through 80s, and if they work for your eye, they are good players. I have all the clubs people chase after, and I like them, but if I had to pick just a few to play, it would be a Cleveland, Palmer Peerless, or a Hogan. 80s clubs can usually be played with just a new grip, classic Macs need to be refinished if they haven't been already, so 80s stuff is much cheaper to play.

 

To learn which classic Macs are most highly regarded, go back all the way to the first post on this site and read the threads on clubs and you will figure out quickly what other people like. Then buy the ones that work for you. The usuall suspects include any model 69 head (M43, M33, 693, M85, 945), M75s and their decedents (R75, B75s, the super eye o matic versions of each, then the RT2Ws) and the Armour models, which include the already mentioned 693 and 945 and then extend to the SS1W/SS2W. Anything to the mid 60s, which includes the MT1W/MT2W lines would be great clubs to have. There are so many models to choose from, it's really up to what suits your eye. If you like the way a driver looks and have confidence in it, you will likely hit it well.

 

There is no law that any of us are aware of that says you have to just pick one. Many of us have several, some have a lot, and some of us, and I'm not saying who, have 500 or so and our wives think we are idiots. So start inexpensive and playable, get a feel for what you like, buy more, sell what you don't like, and have fun. I play 4-5 days per week between outside and the simulator and play different persimmon all the time. I'll play 5 different drivers and fairway combos this week and will enjoy every round. Monday was a John Offer driver I just crushed, yesterday was Cleveland, tomorrow will be a '66 PowerBilt deep face. My feeling is they are all wonderful and great to play. If you read through the past threads, you will find plenty of consensus favorites, and you will likely enjoy many of them yourself.

 

 

Edited January 10 by Stephen8802

[ezgoer]

Massive knowledge there. Well stated!
 

Everything said if you have to be a Mac person keep an eye out for these. Made mid to later 80’s and not uncommon I believe. These were the first persimmons I picked up off eBay. I’ve become attached to them. I’m worried this is as close to a real 945 as I’ll ever get but……

Edited January 10 by ezgoer

[northplatteriver]

The clubs you have are going to be great for hitting lots of range rocks at the driving range where do not want to be hitting your good ones.  Agree with what has been said above.  At some point (most likely sooner than later now that the bug has got you) your going to be looking for some vintage quality persimmon.   For my money I will always have a sweet spot for MacGregor Tourney clubs from the very late 1940's to about 1954.  Something about that period for Macs.  M43, M85 and 693's are my favorites and all can be found for much less than what you would pay for a new conventional driver.  Irons are a different ballgame.  The only "conventional" set of blade irons I still own are a set of 1959 Hogan Sunburst Sabers, but there are so many excellent Hogan iron models made in the 1970's and 1980's and early 1990's.  My favorite for irons not from the 50's would be the 1992 Hogan Ft. Worths.  The woods that match that set are also incredible and usually some of the best looking late model persimmons around.  Your going to have so much fun digging into this.  Enjoy the ride!

[BenjaminP]

20 hours ago, Stephen8802 said:

I agree with Eric's advice. Start with something 80s and them move on to classic 50s/early 60s Macs after you get a feel for the clubs. I love Clevelands, Palmers, and Hogans, any of those would be great. There are tons of PowerBilt's out there, from late 70s through 80s, and if they work for your eye, they are good players. I have all the clubs people chase after, and I like them, but if I had to pick just a few to play, it would be a Cleveland, Palmer Peerless, or a Hogan. 80s clubs can usually be played with just a new grip, classic Macs need to be refinished if they haven't been already, so 80s stuff is much cheaper to play.

 

To learn which classic Macs are most highly regarded, go back all the way to the first post on this site and read the threads on clubs and you will figure out quickly what other people like. Then buy the ones that work for you. The usuall suspects include any model 69 head (M43, M33, 693, M85, 945), M75s and their decedents (R75, B75s, the super eye o matic versions of each, then the RT2Ws) and the Armour models, which include the already mentioned 693 and 945 and then extend to the SS1W/SS2W. Anything to the mid 60s, which includes the MT1W/MT2W lines would be great clubs to have. There are so many models to choose from, it's really up to what suits your eye. If you like the way a driver looks and have confidence in it, you will likely hit it well.

 

There is no law that any of us are aware of that says you have to just pick one. Many of us have several, some have a lot, and some of us, and I'm not saying who, have 500 or so and our wives think we are idiots. So start inexpensive and playable, get a feel for what you like, buy more, sell what you don't like, and have fun. I play 4-5 days per week between outside and the simulator and play different persimmon all the time. I'll play 5 different drivers and fairway combos this week and will enjoy every round. Monday was a John Offer driver I just crushed, yesterday was Cleveland, tomorrow will be a '66 PowerBilt deep face. My feeling is they are all wonderful and great to play. If you read through the past threads, you will find plenty of consensus favorites, and you will likely enjoy many of them yourself.

 

 

Thread Jack but I would love to see a picture of the '66 PowerBilt deep face. Those old Powebilts don't get the credit they deserve.

[rgk5]

I have a mint Palmer Peerless P31 that never sees any action.  My all time favorites were the Cleveland TC15 and Toney Penna Model 65.  The TC15 I owned was one of the last made for Davis Love III and I sold it for $150 IIRC.

[Stephen8802]

1 hour ago, BenjaminP said:

...I would love to see a picture of the '66 PowerBilt deep face...

I always enjoying hitting this club, its such a solid block. The 4 wood, however, I hit for the first time, and just crushed it.

[NRJyzr]

21 hours ago, ezgoer said:

Massive knowledge there. Well stated!
 

Everything said if you have to be a Mac person keep an eye out for these. Made mid to later 80’s and not uncommon I believe. These were the first persimmons I picked up off eBay. I’ve become attached to them. I’m worried this is as close to a real 945 as I’ll ever get but……

 

Reasonably attractive 😁

 

[Shallowface]

On 1/10/2024 at 4:07 PM, ezgoer said:

I’m unsure of the year of the Top Flite. Guessing late 70’s early 80’s. Being laminated not persimmon gives it a particular value that isn’t monetary. You don’t have to worry about what kind of golf ball to use so it’s a great range practice club. If you like it hang onto it for that reason. Couple laminates I have seem heavier and higher lofted so are friendlier to hit.
Unsure which CF iron you have but Mac made them about 58-62?? so that Mac MT persimmon could be 66-71?? and a pretty nice match. I have a 66 that looks similar. It’s a nice persimmon. 
Yeah M75-85’s might be the most common of the big 4 Macs and would be a great match. 
Another thing to consider is later persimmon’s. While not period to your irons they are more available and usually a lot more affordable. Late 70’s through 80’s Rams, Power Builts, Palmers, Hogan’s and Cleveland’s are excellent choices. Sure I’m leaving other fine brands out.

Also I’d recommend not being brand specific. I started out being a Mac guy but now I just like good old clubs. 
I have 2 of the big 4 Mac’s (M85, 693)  and they are great to hit. I’m not a good enough golfer to really notice the difference in the desirable “old persimmon” though. Yeah they may be a little heavier than a newer club but those 50’s shafts are beastly also. 

 

That Top Flite driver is the 1978-79 model.  I played one for about four years from 79-82 and did very well with it.  I had the fairway woods and irons as well.  There is a persimmon version but I had the laminated woods.

[RobotDoctor]

On 1/10/2024 at 3:07 PM, vintagemngolfer said:

Currently I have three different makes of wood drivers, but I'm having a hard time identifying them and the years they were made. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Also, I've noticed that I am hitting the Top Flite Pro Model #28 much better than the MacGregor MT driver, but I really like the MacGregor brand and would love to have the woods to accompany my CF4000's. If you have any recommendations on which woods to try and get I would greatly appreciate it! I've heard the M75 and M85 are good, any others to keep an eye out for?
 

 

The first thing I would ask is why do you want persimmon woods?  If you're going to play them then the choices are nearly limitless.  There have been great persimmon woods from several decades.  The decades of the 80s and 90s, Cleveland Classics really were prevalent and many great models were made.  Roger Cleveland had an affinity to the classic MacGregor woods from the early to mid 50s and many of his models were his version of those woods.  MacGregor, Hogan, Wilson, Powerbilt made some terrific woods from the 1950s through the 90s.  At the end of the day it is about your preference in what you want from a wood and how it looks, and performs, for you.  Also from the 80s and 90s Wood Brothers created probably the best persimmon woods.  These are going to command much higher prices than a Cleveland Classic, Ben Hogan, Wilson, Powerbilt and most MacGregor woods.

If your looking to start collection woods then, again, the choices are limitless.  What catches your eye and heart is where you should focus on.  There is no right or wrong answer here because collecting is your preference, not anyone else's.  The problem with collecting is a tendency for addiction.  Many of us know this all too well. 

 

Best of luck in your journey into persimmon woods.

[mocokid]

On 1/10/2024 at 3:07 PM, vintagemngolfer said:

Currently I have three different makes of wood drivers, but I'm having a hard time identifying them and the years they were made. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Also, I've noticed that I am hitting the Top Flite Pro Model #28 much better than the MacGregor MT driver, but I really like the MacGregor brand and would love to have the woods to accompany my CF4000's. If you have any recommendations on which woods to try and get I would greatly appreciate it! I've heard the M75 and M85 are good, any others to keep an eye out for?
 

None of above are persimmon, all are laminated. 

[bcstones]

7 hours ago, mocokid said:

None of above are persimmon, all are laminated. 

Isn't the MacGregor MT driver persimmon?

[mocokid]

Just now, bcstones said:

Isn't the MacGregor MT driver persimmon?

Definitely not...look closely and see the laminated wood.

[SnowbirdTom]

2 hours ago, mocokid said:

Definitely not...look closely and see the laminated wood.

Yup, I had to zoom in close to see it.  The face is well disguised.

[twidener]

The MT is laminated. I had one of those and it's a nice club. I can't remember what MacGregor called their process of laminating but if you just took a quick glance at the face it would appear to be persimmon, but on closer inspection you could see the layers. The crown was easy to see the lamination. I played mine one summer when I was in high school and it's a very playable driver. I quit using it because I started playing a Hogan persimmon model.

[vintagemngolfer]

Thank all for the outpouring of knowledge and friendly advice! I'm already looking forward to combing through Craigslist, FB Marketplace, and garage sales to find some hidden gems. I'm definitely the type of guy that, (if left to my own devices) would end up with a hundred clubs in the basement, but for better or worse (probably better 🤣) my wife keeps me in check and we agreed that I'll only have 3 full sets at a time. What that means is that I'll likely be buying and selling a few different clubs over the years. My philosophy with these is the same that I have with the majority of vintage items I own, in the sense that, I buy them to use them (respectfully of course) and repair them as needed to continue the story and love of the item. With that in mind, I won't be searching out any museum pieces, but if I happen to find one, I'll make sure to post it and pass it on to someone who will cherish it!

 

So in summation, I'm gonna buy them to play them because I think its fun!

[Shallowface]

20 hours ago, twidener said:

The MT is laminated. I had one of those and it's a nice club. I can't remember what MacGregor called their process of laminating but if you just took a quick glance at the face it would appear to be persimmon, but on closer inspection you could see the layers. The crown was easy to see the lamination. I played mine one summer when I was in high school and it's a very playable driver. I quit using it because I started playing a Hogan persimmon model.

In a late 70s MacGregor catalog I recall them saying their laminated woods were "turned on edge grain" which is a woodworking term.  Not sure exactly what that means.  

 

I've also heard the appearance comes from the use of a clear glue to connect the layers.

 

Laminated woods are fine to play with and in my opinion aren't inferior to persimmon.  The feel differences if they exist are subjective and are often caused by other factors such as shafts or inserts, which after all are what is (hopefully) making contact with the ball.  Ralph Maltby did a test where he painted the heads of both types black and no one who hit them could identify the difference from the feel.

 

Play them and enjoy them!     

[SnowbirdTom]

54 minutes ago, Shallowface said:

Laminated woods are fine to play with and in my opinion aren't inferior to persimmon.  The feel differences if they exist are subjective and are often caused by other factors such as shafts or inserts, which after all are what is (hopefully) making contact with the ball.  Ralph Maltby did a test where he painted the heads of both types black and no one who hit them could identify the difference from the feel.

 

Play them and enjoy them!     

I have both lam and persimmon, alternate when the desire to play a set strikes.  I see no real difference in yardages either.

[AdamMH]

On 1/11/2024 at 1:25 PM, Stephen8802 said:

I always enjoying hitting this club, its such a solid block. The 4 wood, however, I hit for the first time, and just crushed it.

Does that qualify as a deep face? I wouldn't immediately think so based on the pic.

[AdamMH]

4 hours ago, Shallowface said:

In a late 70s MacGregor catalog I recall them saying their laminated woods were "turned on edge grain" which is a woodworking term.  Not sure exactly what that means. 

The statement above means that the grain is running along the face for all lamination layers. Many laminates had alternating dark and light layers - what you're seeing there is edge and end grain sheets alternating, placed at 90 degrees much the same way plywood is made.

[Stephen8802]

16 minutes ago, AdamMH said:

Does that qualify as a deep face? I wouldn't immediately think so based on the pic.

It does for PowerBilt. For many of their models, they offer a standard face and a deep face. The standard size model in 1966 was the 312, the deep face was the 312L. My 312L face is 1 11/16 deep. Normally, I would think of anything 1 3/4 as deep (or 12/16), but this is a deep face for a PowerBilt.