Golf Ball In Abnormal Condition: Doesn't Have To Be Found?

EmperorPenguin · January 13

I remember reading somewhere that if a ball goes into an abnormal condition, like Ground Under Repair or casual water, we do not have to find it when we elect to take relief from it. True?

iacas · January 13

You can look this stuff up yourself:

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=16&subrulenum=1

16.1(e)

davep043 · January 13

1 hour ago, EmperorPenguin said:

I remember reading somewhere that if a ball goes into an abnormal condition, like Ground Under Repair or casual water, we do not have to find it when we elect to take relief from it. True?

@iacas has given you the rule to read. the important thing, you must have Knowledge or Virtual Certainty that the ball has come to rest the ACC to get relief. Be sure to read that definition, Knowledge or Virtual Certainty.

ShortGolfer · January 13

I've hit the ball into the temporary water between two fairways and taken free relief. I found the embedded ball about 25 hours later!

Mr. Bean · January 13

3 hours ago, ShortGolfer said:

I've hit the ball into the temporary water between two fairways and taken free relief. I found the embedded ball about 25 hours later!

From where?

ShortGolfer · January 13

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

From where?

Tee shot on the first hole.

The lighting is much better going the other way so I usually find my ball. Also, the other hole has a dry slope that isn't a bad place to put your ball on the other side of the fairway.

Edited January 13 by ShortGolfer

davep043 · January 13

3 hours ago, ShortGolfer said:

Tee shot on the first hole.

The lighting is much better going the other way so I usually find my ball. Also, the other hole has a dry slope that isn't a bad place to put your ball on the other side of the fairway.

If you don't find your ball in that Temporary Water, your reference point for relief is where the ball last crossed the edge of the TW, not on the other side. Or am I reading this wrong?

AzRoger · January 13

3 hours ago, ShortGolfer said:

Tee shot on the first hole.

The lighting is much better going the other way so I usually find my ball. Also, the other hole has a dry slope that isn't a bad place to put your ball on the other side of the fairway.

I'm not sure your situation qualifies for a free drop, much harder to meet the certainty requirement with a driver that's offline unless someone up ahead saw it, can't just assume it was lost in casual water.

ShortGolfer · January 13

Maybe not. I'm just playing practice rounds and want be aware of the rules to learn them. I don't hit the ball far enough with driver right now for it to go anywhere else!

To complicate matters the water is patchy, rather than a well defined pond. Unfortunately there are no tee times either so I want to be quick about it and not hold up play.

If it weren't the first hole I'd have a better idea of who is behind me.

I practice trying to take shots that will allow me to "play it as it lies." Last time out I took some swings at a ball on top of a few inches of loose leaves.

I was able to start the swing with the club head a foot back of the ball and make a lob shot that landed on the green.

Edited January 13 by ShortGolfer

Mr. Bean · January 13

11 hours ago, ShortGolfer said:

Tee shot on the first hole.

The lighting is much better going the other way so I usually find my ball. Also, the other hole has a dry slope that isn't a bad place to put your ball on the other side of the fairway.

That is not what I asked.

Where did you find your ball? In the Temp Water? Somewhere else? On the teeing ground?

Try reading the question next time.

ShortGolfer · January 13

The embedded ball was found in the temporary water between the two fairways, exactly where I thought it landed.

Maybe that is why it was still there over a day later. Nobody else wanted to get their feet wet retrieving it! The shoes and combination I use is pretty good at keeping my feet dry.

Edited January 13 by ShortGolfer

Maine Golfer · January 13

This season I had to due this is large fairway puddles

betarhoalphadelta · January 13

21 hours ago, davep043 said:

@iacas has given you the rule to read. the important thing, you must have Knowledge or Virtual Certainty that the ball has come to rest the ACC to get relief. Be sure to read that definition, Knowledge or Virtual Certainty.

Yep. As an example, there's a course I play often where the 9th hole has a choice of a carry over a creek or a layup. (By "creek" this is SoCal, so we're talking about a concrete drainage channel from a reservoir uphill of the course.) It's about 220-230 depending on tees if you hit one straight, but due to the angle of the creek is probably only 200-210 if you pull it left. I have a left miss, so I end up left over the creek often. Missing left puts you on a slope underneath the first tee, and due to some chronic issues there, it's GUR and usually VERY soggy.

I had a round where I hit it left and myself and my playing partners all believed it cleared the creek and landed in the GUR, where it would be soft enough to embed. And I made good enough contact that I have to imagine I carried it. However, this "creek" is fast moving enough that if the ball actually didn't clear it, the ball would be long gone by the time you get there. I never found it (although I found another ball embedded in the slope there.) So I wouldn't call this KVC, and I ended up taking the lost lost ball penalty (via MLR E-5 for pace of play) because I didn't deem it KVC. I simply wasn't 95%+ SURE that I cleared it. I believe it did, but not necessarily strongly enough that I think it satisfies KVC.

The very next round I played there I did the same thing, and found my own ball embedded as it dug a hole about 2-3" into mud on the slope. And since it's GUR, I was able to take free relief.

davep043 · January 14

14 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Yep. As an example, there's a course I play often where the 9th hole has a choice of a carry over a creek or a layup. (By "creek" this is SoCal, so we're talking about a concrete drainage channel from a reservoir uphill of the course.) It's about 220-230 depending on tees if you hit one straight, but due to the angle of the creek is probably only 200-210 if you pull it left. I have a left miss, so I end up left over the creek often. Missing left puts you on a slope underneath the first tee, and due to some chronic issues there, it's GUR and usually VERY soggy.

I had a round where I hit it left and myself and my playing partners all believed it cleared the creek and landed in the GUR, where it would be soft enough to embed. And I made good enough contact that I have to imagine I carried it. However, this "creek" is fast moving enough that if the ball actually didn't clear it, the ball would be long gone by the time you get there. I never found it (although I found another ball embedded in the slope there.) So I wouldn't call this KVC, and I ended up taking the lost lost ball penalty (via MLR E-5 for pace of play) because I didn't deem it KVC. I simply wasn't 95%+ SURE that I cleared it. I believe it did, but not necessarily strongly enough that I think it satisfies KVC.

The very next round I played there I did the same thing, and found my own ball embedded as it dug a hole about 2-3" into mud on the slope. And since it's GUR, I was able to take free relief.

This is interesting. Did you have 95% certainty that the ball was either in the Penalty area or the GUR, but not lost outside of one of those areas? If so, Clarification 17.1a/1 could apply, and you would have been able to take relief from the Penalty Area, rather than Lost Ball. I know that clarification talks about "equally likely", but in a Facebook page the USGA has confirmed

"So long as it is known or virtually certain the ball is in one or the other, but the known or virtually standard is not reached specifically in either case, then the result from the interpretation applies - the player must take penalty relief from the penalty area."

betarhoalphadelta · January 14

49 minutes ago, davep043 said:

This is interesting. Did you have 95% certainty that the ball was either in the Penalty area or the GUR, but not lost outside of one of those areas? If so, Clarification 17.1a/1 could apply, and you would have been able to take relief from the Penalty Area, rather than Lost Ball. I know that clarification talks about "equally likely", but in a Facebook page the USGA has confirmed

"So long as it is known or virtually certain the ball is in one or the other, but the known or virtually standard is not reached specifically in either case, then the result from the interpretation applies - the player must take penalty relief from the penalty area."

Thank you. Yes, in that situation I believe it would be KVC that it was in one or the other. One of those where we knew the line it was on, there wasn't insane rough in the area where a ball would be lost, no other obstacles or foliage that could hid a ball, etc.

So it sounds like I should have taken penalty area relief where I believe it would have crossed (entered) the creek on that line.

davep043 · January 14

10 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

So it sounds like I should have taken penalty area relief where I believe it would have crossed (entered) the creek on that line.

Yeah, that's the way I read your initial post. Of course, taking Stroke and Distance is another acceptable relief option for the Penalty Area, so you did nothing "wrong", you just didn't take the more advantageous option. This Clarification is most likely to apply to those occasions where a stream has overflowed its banks, so there's Temporary Water outside the limits of the Penalty Area, and the ball is in the water but you can't tell exactly where. It certainly could apply to your case as well.

ShortGolfer · January 14

95% ?

For me it is like 99% certainty when I see what direction the ball is headed in the air. My normal shot is a high fade that is easy to track. If I don't see the ball bounce in good light that usually means an embedded ball.

I recently played over a hundred holes without losing a ball. Then I lost it in a thick pile of leaves on a steep slope. The ball was fifty feet from the pin but I couldn't find it. I found a bunch of other nice balls looking for it.

I've since learned there are easy things I can do to prevent embedded balls. Hit a slice or draw that rolls across the fairway instead of the high fade.

Or just hit a 4 iron. I've never embedded a ball in the soft grass with a 4 iron. But, sometimes I just want to hit driver. 😀

Edited January 14 by ShortGolfer

davep043 · January 14

17 minutes ago, ShortGolfer said:

For me it is like 99% certainty when I see what direction the ball is headed in the air. My normal shot is a high fade that is easy to track. If I don't see the ball bounce in good light that usually means an embedded ball.

Its important to point out that Embedded Ball (Rule 16.3) is treated differently than a ball in an Abnormal Course Condition (16.1). To get relief under 16.3, you MUST find and identify your ball.

Mr. Bean · January 15

21 hours ago, ShortGolfer said:

95% ?

For me it is like 99% certainty when I see what direction the ball is headed in the air.

Well, 99 is greater than 95 so the criteria of "minimum 95% certainty" is fulfilled.

Mr. Bean · January 15

21 hours ago, davep043 said:

Its important to point out that Embedded Ball (Rule 16.3) is treated differently than a ball in an Abnormal Course Condition (16.1). To get relief under 16.3, you MUST find and identify your ball.

This is one case where people tend to take some liberties when it comes to finding the ball. When a ball is embedded in soggy ground with no water visible and the ball is not found many golfers take a free relief from "temporary water", which of course is incorrect as you pointed out.

davep043 · January 15

42 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

This is one case where people tend to take some liberties when it comes to finding the ball. When a ball is embedded in soggy ground with no water visible and the ball is not found many golfers take a free relief from "temporary water", which of course is incorrect as you pointed out.

Agree completely, many folks think an Embedded Ball is in an Abnormal Course Condition by definition, they don't realize they are actually two different rules.. All we can do in forums like this is to explain the rules, and hope a few folks will care enough to learn something.

iacas · January 15

I have had players play in tournaments where it's known to be soft almost everywhere, and the Committee will declare that embedded balls are treated as GUR in the general area.

I don't love those days, but I understand: without that rule kids would shoot 8 shots higher each and rounds would take 60+ minutes more.