Ball position effect on flight?

[mallrat]

So I have always struggled with driver and the worst part is I have a 2 pretty drastic 2 way miss. If it matters I’m generally around 3* up and 3-5* in to out. I hit some horrendous block/slices and then you can throw in a duck hook here or there. Something I have known but never consistently worked on fixing is the ball is outside my front foot. I should also add I can’t hit a draw to save my life. So after a couple of range sessions and 2 rounds of playing the ball off my instep I seem to be hitting it WAY more consistent and have even hit some push draws. 
 

How much of an issue is ball placement and could that be a major issue?

 

[MonteScheinblum]

3 up. and 3-5 in to out is not an ideal matchup.

 

Thats a swing direction 6-8 right and that’s a 2 way miss.

 

Ball position should be measured by where it is on your chest.

 

Hypothetically, left instep could be outside lead shoulder.

 

 

Edited January 26 by MonteScheinblum

[mallrat]

I get the ball position but for my actual swing would you rather see less in to out or less up? Or both?

[SNIPERBBB]

7 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

3 up. and 3-5 in to out is not an ideal matchup.

 

Thats a swing direction 6-8 right and that’s a 2 way miss.

 

Ball position should be measured by where it is on your chest.

 

Hypothetically, left instep could be outside lead shoulder.

 

 

I was having a discussion somewhat related to to this in another group in a different sport... If you told a group of players to take a stance with their feet shoulder wide, what % would actually be shoulder wide vs too narrow or wide? 

[Rbsiedsc]

7 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

3 up. and 3-5 in to out is not an ideal matchup.

 

Thats a swing direction 6-8 right and that’s a 2 way miss.

 

Ball position should be measured by where it is on your chest.

 

Hypothetically, left instep could be outside lead shoulder.

 

 

So in this case, if hitting up it’s better to be more neutral? I presume this is d-plane related?

[KMeloney]

8 hours ago, mallrat said:

So after a couple of range sessions and 2 rounds of playing the ball off my instep I seem to be hitting it WAY more consistent and have even hit some push draws. 

How much of an issue is ball placement and could that be a major issue?

 

 

Haven't you answered your own question here?

[getitdaily]

1 hour ago, mallrat said:

I get the ball position but for my actual swing would you rather see less in to out or less up? Or both?

Less in to out.

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, mallrat said:

I get the ball position but for my actual swing would you rather see less in to out or less up? Or both?

Depends on what swing issue or setup is causing the problem.  Could be one or the other or both.

[KD1]

10 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

3 up. and 3-5 in to out is not an ideal matchup.

 

Thats a swing direction 6-8 right and that’s a 2 way miss.

 

Could you give a couple examples of ideal matchups? Let's just say a stock fade and a stock draw? I know it's overly simplistic but what's going to get a mid/low handicapper around their muni just fine?

[badpokerbadgolf]

7 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

Could you give a couple examples of ideal matchups? Let's just say a stock fade and a stock draw? I know it's overly simplistic but what's going to get a mid/low handicapper around their muni just fine?

I would love to see a thread dedicated to "matchups."   Club path and angle of attack that works best with different grips, ball positions, ball flight etc. I have a few ideas from trial and error on the range but I'm sure the pros have this concept figured out much better.

[CSagan]

Rory’s stock high draw shot is around 3 degrees up and 3-5 path in to out. 

dunno why that’s a two way miss any more than a neutral path. All about controlling the face angle, which pros do better than us joes. 
 

 

[ferrispgm]

23 minutes ago, CSagan said:

Rory’s stock high draw shot is around 3 degrees up and 3-5 path in to out. 

dunno why that’s a two way miss any more than a neutral path. All about controlling the face angle, which pros do better than us joes. 
 

 

You bring  a push/push cut and a snap hook into play depending on if you are able to square the face or not or maybe your drop it inside a little to much on 1 swing. Sure, Rory is pretty good at it....how many hours does he practice versus the average person?  Even with all that practice, he can get wild sometimes.   

[KD1]

53 minutes ago, CSagan said:

Rory’s stock high draw shot is around 3 degrees up and 3-5 path in to out. 

dunno why that’s a two way miss any more than a neutral path. All about controlling the face angle, which pros do better than us joes. 
 

 

FWIW I believe Rory has said he's moving away from a draw with driver, he said he likes fade with modern equipment.

[mgoblue83]

Keep it simple:

Moving the ball farther back should cause it to start to the right and draw

Moving the ball forward should cause it to start left and fade

 

If there is anything else going on then the face angle is not matching up and should be the primary focus. 

 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, badpokerbadgolf said:

I would love to see a thread dedicated to "matchups."   Club path and angle of attack that works best with different grips, ball positions, ball flight etc. I have a few ideas from trial and error on the range but I'm sure the pros have this concept figured out much better.

 

That would be an incredibly complicated thread.

 

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

Keep it simple:

Moving the ball farther back should cause it to start to the right and draw

Moving the ball forward should cause it to start left and fade

 

That is the kind of thing that sounds simple, but which can cause all sorts of other issues.

[Rbsiedsc]

2 hours ago, ferrispgm said:

You bring  a push/push cut and a snap hook into play depending on if you are able to square the face or not or maybe your drop it inside a little to much on 1 swing. Sure, Rory is pretty good at it....how many hours does he practice versus the average person?  Even with all that practice, he can get wild sometimes.   

that is my miss as well. I have worked hard to get my path more in to out but now it has kinda killed me in the long game. Now, I have been doing some technique work all winter and will have to see how my numbers look then. This has been an interesting thread.

[mgoblue83]

21 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

That would be an incredibly complicated thread.

 

 

That is the kind of thing that sounds simple, but which can cause all sorts of other issues.

 

Well sure but isn't that everything related to golf?

 

Almost always comes down to club face control regardless and I'd suggest the poster works on that before worrying about matchups.

[badpokerbadgolf]

46 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

That would be an incredibly complicated thread.

 

Indeed

[MonteScheinblum]

4 hours ago, KD1 said:

 

Could you give a couple examples of ideal matchups? Let's just say a stock fade and a stock draw? I know it's overly simplistic but what's going to get a mid/low handicapper around their muni just fine?

Close to level and swing direction close ti either side of zero.

 

I have people on my lesson tee every day that swing down 1  with.a good move and hit it straight and solid.

 

Trying to hit up 3-5, they can’t match face/path/target, can’t hit the middle of the club and actually slow down.

 

Chasing the 5 up because a robot hits the ball farther has over taken hitting a draw, because a draw goes farther than a fade, as the #1 way decent to good players have ruined their game.

 

My boy Frank Lickliter won 20 million playing golf and has 2 tour wins.  Someone convinced him 15 years ago he needed to hit a draw and  hit up for more distances.  Played his way right off the your and never fully recovered for a left miss.

[mallrat]

3 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

Keep it simple:

Moving the ball farther back should cause it to start to the right and draw

Moving the ball forward should cause it to start left and fade

 

If there is anything else going on then the face angle is not matching up and should be the primary focus. 

 

I get the thought process in this but in actual theory it confuses me. In my thought process, the ball positioned farther forward would produce more of a pull cut while having to hold the face open longer other wise wouldn’t it produce pull hooks? Meaning, I would think that the face would be more closed at impact, where as the ball further back would promote the face being a little more open? 
 

What am I missing? Wouldn’t that then exacerbate the right miss because when you move the ball back the face would be more open?

[mallrat]

2 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

Well sure but isn't that everything related to golf?

 

Almost always comes down to club face control regardless and I'd suggest the poster works on that before worrying about matchups.

This was part of my original post in that moving the ball back and doing nothing else seems to be making a very big difference. 

[mgoblue83]

1 hour ago, mallrat said:

I get the thought process in this but in actual theory it confuses me. In my thought process, the ball positioned farther forward would produce more of a pull cut while having to hold the face open longer other wise wouldn’t it produce pull hooks? Meaning, I would think that the face would be more closed at impact, where as the ball further back would promote the face being a little more open? 
 

What am I missing? Wouldn’t that then exacerbate the right miss because when you move the ball back the face would be more open?

Exactly. Ball further back does usually meant the face is more open but it also shifts the path right creating a push draw. Ball forward is the opposite (pull cut).

 

It makes sense if you think of the club swinging on an arc but the hard part is club face control because as you said if the ball position is move up and you shut the face it’s going to be a big miss left.

 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, mallrat said:

I get the thought process in this but in actual theory it confuses me. In my thought process, the ball positioned farther forward would produce more of a pull cut while having to hold the face open longer other wise wouldn’t it produce pull hooks? Meaning, I would think that the face would be more closed at impact, where as the ball further back would promote the face being a little more open? 
 

What am I missing? Wouldn’t that then exacerbate the right miss because when you move the ball back the face would be more open?

You are mixing face to target and face to path.  
 

Yes a ball more forward will likely produce a face more closed to the target, but it will generally produce a face open to the path, which will fade assuming hit in the center of the face.

[mallrat]

4 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

You are mixing face to target and face to path.  
 

Yes a ball more forward will likely produce a face more closed to the target, but it will generally produce a face open to the path, which will fade assuming hit in the center of the face.

So going back to an earlier post of yours, you said ball position should be relative to chest not instep. My feet are slightly wider than shoulder width with driver (is that an issue in and of itself?), where do you prefer a ball positioned? Or is that matchup dependent

[MonteScheinblum]

26 minutes ago, mallrat said:

So going back to an earlier post of yours, you said ball position should be relative to chest not instep. My feet are slightly wider than shoulder width with driver (is that an issue in and of itself?), where do you prefer a ball positioned? Or is that matchup dependent

Likely too far forward.

 

Off lead armpit is a good place to start 

 

 

[mallrat]

Went to the range today and moved the ball back a little further (even with left arm pit). Also based on this I tee’d it lower and tried not to hit up on the ball. Well, didn’t miss left once. Most balls were lower flighted. Picked 2 target poles about a medium fairway width apart, aimed left of center and the majority started on line and cut back into the center. A few were pushes but I didn’t expect to cure all issues in a day. 
 

thanks guys and Monte

[MonteScheinblum]

33 minutes ago, mallrat said:

Went to the range today and moved the ball back a little further (even with left arm pit). Also based on this I tee’d it lower and tried not to hit up on the ball. Well, didn’t miss left once. Most balls were lower flighted. Picked 2 target poles about a medium fairway width apart, aimed left of center and the majority started on line and cut back into the center. A few were pushes but I didn’t expect to cure all issues in a day. 
 

thanks guys and Monte

Hitting up on purpose is on the short list of worst ideas ever right next to New Coke.

[mallrat]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Hitting up on purpose is on the short list of worst ideas ever right next to New Coke.

worse than clear Pepsi? 
 

Is it the distance thing the average golfer goes for or just the golf media in general and why does it get pushed so much? 
 

side note, I’m an asst super and I would equate it to the media’s lazy excuse of Poa being a poor putting surface. Not maintained properly it can be but it can be outstanding. It’s funny that they don’t do their research and only talk about it on the West Coast and but never mention courses like Oakmont, Winged Foot, Pine Valley and NGLA. 

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, mallrat said:

side note, I’m an asst super and I would equate it to the media’s lazy excuse of Poa being a poor putting surface. Not maintained properly it can be but it can be outstanding. It’s funny that they don’t do their research and only talk about it on the West Coast and but never mention courses like Oakmont, Winged Foot, Pine Valley and NGLA. 

 

Poa can be great - completely agree. Oakmont is poa. Several of the courses in Erie are poa and putt well, including Lawrence Park GC, Kahkwa Club… Lake View. Many, many others around the country, too.

 

I'm not a super, nor do I pretend to be one. The seed heads are the issue from what I think I remember being told, but there are sprays and things that can mitigate that, too.

[MonteScheinblum]

46 minutes ago, mallrat said:

worse than clear Pepsi? 
 

Is it the distance thing the average golfer goes for or just the golf media in general and why does it get pushed so much? 
 

side note, I’m an asst super and I would equate it to the media’s lazy excuse of Poa being a poor putting surface. Not maintained properly it can be but it can be outstanding. It’s funny that they don’t do their research and only talk about it on the West Coast and but never mention courses like Oakmont, Winged Foot, Pine Valley and NGLA. 

A robot hits it up 5 farther than level.  That’s where it comes from.  Near 100% of golfers who hit up 5 lose face/path/sweet spot control and many lose club speed.