Losing all speed gains when it counts

[SteelyDan]

I am failing to transfer my gains from speed training into my playing swing. 
 

Using Rypstick, I quickly increased my baseline speed from lousy 82 mph to 92 mph. My fastest swings without weights are even 100+ mph now.

 

However, those are swings without hitting a ball. Once I put a ball in the way, all gains are completely gone, although I am trying hard. And this is not even on the course.

 

Has anyone else experienced this? How can I overcome this barrier?
 

Thanks! 

[Pepperturbo]

Sounds like you're expecting immediate results = a recipe for disappointment.  That's a problem that many people face; want it now.  You have to keep practicing until your swing finds a consistent groove.  

[mikezalisgolf]

If you don't want to hit it, don't hit it.. 

 

Just a joke I make with golf friends, then they usually go at it faster. 

 

Speed training pushes your limits but that means you're going after it. When you put a ball down you can't just coast at it if you want to see distance.

 

Hit the dang thing.

[MonteScheinblum]

This falls into the same category as “My practice swing is pure and my real swing isn’t.”

 

Your body realizes the “new” swing will just hit the ball farther off line.  It is slowing down to allow the club face to hit the ball somewhere near the target.  
 

This is why I say you shouldn’t speed train until you have decent face/path/target alignment and control.

[SteelyDan]

6 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This falls into the same category as “My practice swing is pure and my real swing isn’t.”

 

Your body realizes the “new” swing will just hit the ball farther off line.  It is slowing down to allow the club face to hit the ball somewhere near the target.  
 

This is why I say you shouldn’t speed train until you have decent face/path/target alignment and control.

Thanks Monte. Well, my driving accuracy was pretty good before speed training.
So, while I was never expecting all the gains when swinging a stick to transfer into the real driver swing, at least I was hoping my cruising speed would improve a bit. But I am seing zero so far, which is disappointing.

[MonteScheinblum]

2 minutes ago, SteelyDan said:

Thanks Monte. Well, my driving accuracy was pretty good before speed training.
So, while I was never expecting all the gains when swinging a stick to transfer into the real driver swing, at least I was hoping my cruising speed would improve a bit. But I am seing zero so far, which is disappointing.

That’s doesn’t necessarily change the issue.  Hypothetical.  You come into impact with a very open club face.  At 92, you’ve learned to square it and hit it straight.  At 100 you wouldn’t.

[SteelyDan]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

That’s doesn’t necessarily change the issue.  Hypothetical.  You come into impact with a very open club face.  At 92, you’ve learned to square it and hit it straight.  At 100 you wouldn’t.

Certainly not overnight when I go from 92 to 100. Yet if I can square it up at 92, shouldn’t I be able to learn to do it at 93, 94 and 95? I just want to unlock some of the potential step by step.

[doctor220]

Need to focus on hitting driver faster, ie more reps with actual balls. Can do like 10-20 max speed drivers after a speed training session. 

[cav5]

You likely just learned how to move your hands faster to create useless speed. Common problem with speed aids.

[Arthur_Vandelay]

I had this exact problem.  Bought a swing speed radar and went from about 100 mph without a ball to being able to occasionally hit 130 and consistently in the low 120s. When I went to hit balls on a Trackman, I was seeing minimal gains, maybe 1-3 mph.

 

I took some lessons with a really solid teaching pro who happened to have an incredibly fast swing himself. We looked at my swing and he said I had a lot more speed in the tank that I wasn't realizing because of poor technique.  For me my main problem was a wide open club face, which as Monte pointed out, I was able to square up through compensations at 105 mph, but not at 120 mph.  I could literally feel my body fighting me mid swing and stalling/hanging back in order to square the face.  Over time I've improved my overall technique and face control and have started to see the speed gains translating to my play.  I went to get fitted recently and the Trackman was consistently showing 115 mph+ with the driver I showed up with, which is consistent with how far I hit it on the course.

 

My advice would be to find an instructor who has some understanding and interest in speed.  Also, at some point it helps to start doing more of your speed training with actually hitting balls.

[SteelyDan]

1 hour ago, cav5 said:

You likely just learned how to move your hands faster to create useless speed. Common problem with speed aids.

Interesting point. The main gains I saw from transition/sequencing/weight shift drills. But I see the risk of the hands adding some extra miles.

 

Do you say "useless" because the face is likely too open?

 

 

[mgoblue83]

2 hours ago, cav5 said:

You likely just learned how to move your hands faster to create useless speed. Common problem with speed aids.

 

I wouldn't call it useless speed. A significant portion of speed is from hand speed and unloading the wrist. Impossible to swing fast without it.

 

 

For the OP:

If you want it to transfer you have to stop caring where the ball goes while speed training. Just hit it as hard as you possibly can without any concern over direction.

 

[cav5]

27 minutes ago, SteelyDan said:

Interesting point. The main gains I saw from transition/sequencing/weight shift drills. But I see the risk of the hands adding some extra miles.

 

Do you say "useless" because the face is likely too open?

 

 

 

I'll try to put it simply. The hands don't do anything. That's their job. If they try to pick up work on there time off they'll break your motion. Hands just need to be strong enough to handle the speed, which turns into pressure on the shaft, that was created kinetically by your sequence. Same as I can only dead lift until grip failure

 

They'll be cheerleaders for men laughing at my post so up to you if you take your golf tips like stock tips.

Edited February 29 by cav5

[cav5]

18 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

I wouldn't call it useless speed. A significant portion of speed is from hand speed and unloading the wrist. Impossible to swing fast without it.

 

 

For the OP:

If you want it to transfer you have to stop caring where the ball goes while speed training. Just hit it as hard as you possibly can without any concern over direction.

 

 

As long as you know the context it was created. I can show you a golf swing with high hand speed. I can also show you one with slower hand speed. Which one went further?

 

I can create higher hands speeds with worse golf swings. So can many others

 

I've said it before and ill say it again. With a modern driver any able bodied middle age man can fly a ball 300yards with sound motion. If you can't. Thats how far off you really are.

Edited February 29 by cav5

[ferrispgm]

Look at the speed training as a way to give you a bigger potential for speed.  Improving your swing is how you realize that potential.  Your brain will subconsciously do whatever it can to get the face on the ball which means compensations and the more compensations, the slower you swing.  Remove compensations and you will get closer to your potential.  Right now you are a 300hp car with a 40mph governor.  Speed training will increase the HP, swing improvements remove the governor.

[doctor220]

1 hour ago, SteelyDan said:

Interesting point. The main gains I saw from transition/sequencing/weight shift drills. But I see the risk of the hands adding some extra miles.

 

Do you say "useless" because the face is likely too open?

 

 

Guy is a troll, be careful 

[OHGolfer2]

2 hours ago, Arthur_Vandelay said:

Also, at some point it helps to start doing more of your speed training with actually hitting balls.

I'm wondering if it's better to do all speed training this way (e.g., hitting balls at max speed with driver as opposed to air swings with Stack/rypstick/SS)?  You could potentially switch between hitting balls at max speed with a normal men's driver and a lighter weight women's driver.  

[SteelyDan]

Also, I am wondering if the simple speed radars might be inaccurate when hitting the ball. I reckon the head must slow down upon impact? Maybe that’s confusing the radar a bit.

In the current cold weather with poor range balls, I can’t really tell if I am hitting it a bit longer than usual or not. I can tell for sure that my dispersion suffers when I try to really go after it.

[cav5]

1 hour ago, OHGolfer2 said:

I'm wondering if it's better to do all speed training this way (e.g., hitting balls at max speed with driver as opposed to air swings with Stack/rypstick/SS)?  You could potentially switch between hitting balls at max speed with a normal men's driver and a lighter weight women's driver.  

 

Wow we have a real thinker. Besides mine, best post on the thread. I normally increase my lifts my putting 250 on the bench monday, and then 255 on thursday. Nothing applies to golf tho.

[doctor220]

58 minutes ago, SteelyDan said:

Also, I am wondering if the simple speed radars might be inaccurate when hitting the ball. I reckon the head must slow down upon impact? Maybe that’s confusing the radar a bit.

In the current cold weather with poor range balls, I can’t really tell if I am hitting it a bit longer than usual or not. I can tell for sure that my dispersion suffers when I try to really go after it.

Def depends on the model like in my opinion the swing speed radar is inaccurate and junk while PRGR will just generally yield accurate results similar to my launch monitor , when hitting a ball in regards to club and ball speed. 
 

Hitting drivers max effort would be good but I think combo of driver+ ball and a swing speed training device is prob the best. 

[puresurfr]

4 hours ago, cav5 said:

 

As long as you know the context it was created. I can show you a golf swing with high hand speed. I can also show you one with slower hand speed. Which one went further?

 

I can create higher hands speeds with worse golf swings. So can many others

 

I've said it before and ill say it again. With a modern driver any able bodied middle age man can fly a ball 300yards with sound motion. If you can't. Thats how far off you really are.

 

I never knew that 300 yards carry was possible for every able bodied middle aged man .....im gonna have to ponder that one

[Ty_Webb]

4 hours ago, cav5 said:

 

I can show you a golf swing with high hand speed. I can also show you one with slower hand speed.

 

Please do

[Nels55]

7 hours ago, SteelyDan said:

Also, I am wondering if the simple speed radars might be inaccurate when hitting the ball. I reckon the head must slow down upon impact? Maybe that’s confusing the radar a bit.

In the current cold weather with poor range balls, I can’t really tell if I am hitting it a bit longer than usual or not. I can tell for sure that my dispersion suffers when I try to really go after it.

The simple radars are fairly accurate and are actually more likely to read much higher swing speeds when hitting a ball if the radar measures the ball speed instead of the clubhead speed.

 

 

 

[cav5]

5 hours ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

Please do

 

I'd need to know how you'd define hand speed because its just making a crappy golf swing. I wasn't trying to stump anyone.

 

Grip strength is not speed. Its the ability to store and move energy to the thing its holding. Speed added outside the motions form would disrupt it and means less speed and control for the clubhead later. COM will break and you will now be playing a balance game.

 

Speed is created in the pivot and given to club. The hand is not the striking object.

 

You can play that way by some miracle with added vertical GFR if you're good enough (the pro way, JT good example) or worse a dump. You'll lose the clubface either way, but a pro with V GFR can maintain it some.

 

What I'm saying is ideally you'd want slower(not even the right word), stronger hands able to handle more stress. Not just fast hands. You want the clubhead to go 0-100 in a split second, not the hands.

 

Put speed in your hands on a deadlift. Its no longer a deadlift its a broken back. There is nothing worse especially training back when you know your motion is losing efficiency because your hands too weak.

 

If you want the fastest hands possible you do it right at transition, but you can't have both. Fast hands early means you completely transferred energy to them. BUTTT you don't get to break physics and get the best of both worlds though. If the hands have all that speed it won't get to clubhead.

 

Again, Don't confuse the hands taking or holding more energy with speed.

 

And if you add too much hand speed to a clean/press you will get the weight to close to your face that you've made the weight too heavy and won't be able to press it up because you're hands went outward to fast. If its light enough you can V GFR it tho.

 

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you was busy training hand speed LOL

 

Edited March 1 by cav5

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

Ich habe gelernt, meinen Golfschläger schneller zu schwingen, indem ich mit einer guten Mechanik einen besseren Rhythmus herstellte.

[doctor220]

9 hours ago, cav5 said:

 

I'd need to know how you'd define hand speed because its just making a crappy golf swing. I wasn't trying to stump anyone.

 

Grip strength is not speed. Its the ability to store and move energy to the thing its holding. Speed added outside the motions form would disrupt it and means less speed and control for the clubhead later. COM will break and you will now be playing a balance game.

 

Speed is created in the pivot and given to club. The hand is not the striking object.

 

You can play that way by some miracle with added vertical GFR if you're good enough (the pro way, JT good example) or worse a dump. You'll lose the clubface either way, but a pro with V GFR can maintain it some.

 

What I'm saying is ideally you'd want slower(not even the right word), stronger hands able to handle more stress. Not just fast hands. You want the clubhead to go 0-100 in a split second, not the hands.

 

Put speed in your hands on a deadlift. Its no longer a deadlift its a broken back. There is nothing worse especially training back when you know your motion is losing efficiency because your hands too weak.

 

If you want the fastest hands possible you do it right at transition, but you can't have both. Fast hands early means you completely transferred energy to them. BUTTT you don't get to break physics and get the best of both worlds though. If the hands have all that speed it won't get to clubhead.

 

Again, Don't confuse the hands taking or holding more energy with speed.

 

And if you add too much hand speed to a clean/press you will get the weight to close to your face that you've made the weight too heavy and won't be able to press it up because you're hands went outward to fast. If its light enough you can V GFR it tho.

 

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you was busy training hand speed LOL

 

Except those comparisons make literally no sense bc you are lifting weights , not swinging a stick with a club head on it.

Edited March 1 by doctor220

[cav5]

1 hour ago, doctor220 said:

Except those comparisons make literally no sense bc you are lifting weights , not swinging a stick with a club head on it.

 

I've made multiple posts on how a club works. You may not understand it but it makes perfect sense. If you think it goes ground-feet-legs-chest-arms-clubhead-ball then ignore me and stick to AMG mercedes. 

 

If you put speed into the hands that speed will travel quickly through the shaft to the clubhead away from the target (with momentum, bad bad bad). That can be managed if you want. See next paragraph.

 

Go to the top of your swing.. try to send the clubhead away from the target without momentum and with momentum. Torque to or away from the target? Try mixing speed and torque at the hands with a club or weight.

 

The same thing will happen in a compound lift and you will not get it off the ground. Pivot speed is generated in one direction, absorbed as kinetic engery in the hand and given as momentum for a another system. If speed gets to the hands the club will seek alignment to the pivot and you are dead. Well most modern instruction just accepts that fact because there is no easy way to say or teach what I'm saying so they end up just teaching match-ups whether they know it or not.

 

Smoothness is created by multiple systems playing at once with transmission between, not speed between A and B. You have a system starting at the feet and another at the hands. Same as a deadlift or clean. Make it one system and see how the bar, your back, and hamstrings like to be in alignment. CALL THE DOCTOR! You will obviously not break a barbell, but you could break a shaft and that's a good thing.

 

If you believe the golf swing to be one link then you're correct this will not make sense to you. Smoothness is what you see when the links are blended. The clubhead will reach a breaking point to where the pivots acceleration no longer can provide momentum and the clubhead will release on its own.

Edited March 1 by cav5

[Carolina Golfer 2]

22 hours ago, Arthur_Vandelay said:

I had this exact problem.  Bought a swing speed radar and went from about 100 mph without a ball to being able to occasionally hit 130 and consistently in the low 120s. When I went to hit balls on a Trackman, I was seeing minimal gains, maybe 1-3 mph.

 

I took some lessons with a really solid teaching pro who happened to have an incredibly fast swing himself. We looked at my swing and he said I had a lot more speed in the tank that I wasn't realizing because of poor technique.  For me my main problem was a wide open club face, which as Monte pointed out, I was able to square up through compensations at 105 mph, but not at 120 mph.  I could literally feel my body fighting me mid swing and stalling/hanging back in order to square the face.  Over time I've improved my overall technique and face control and have started to see the speed gains translating to my play.  I went to get fitted recently and the Trackman was consistently showing 115 mph+ with the driver I showed up with, which is consistent with how far I hit it on the course.

 

My advice would be to find an instructor who has some understanding and interest in speed.  Also, at some point it helps to start doing more of your speed training with actually hitting balls.

I just started the RypStick program, 3 sessions in.  I think Luke Benoit even mentions this in the intro, almost like "fine print" disclaimer, that if you don't have proper sequencing then your gains will be minimal.  

 

@SteelyDan  Just curious how long or what level are you at in the program? 

[Ty_Webb]

10 hours ago, cav5 said:

 

I'd need to know how you'd define hand speed because its just making a crappy golf swing. I wasn't trying to stump anyone.

 

Grip strength is not speed. Its the ability to store and move energy to the thing its holding. Speed added outside the motions form would disrupt it and means less speed and control for the clubhead later. COM will break and you will now be playing a balance game.

 

Speed is created in the pivot and given to club. The hand is not the striking object.

 

You can play that way by some miracle with added vertical GFR if you're good enough (the pro way, JT good example) or worse a dump. You'll lose the clubface either way, but a pro with V GFR can maintain it some.

 

What I'm saying is ideally you'd want slower(not even the right word), stronger hands able to handle more stress. Not just fast hands. You want the clubhead to go 0-100 in a split second, not the hands.

 

Put speed in your hands on a deadlift. Its no longer a deadlift its a broken back. There is nothing worse especially training back when you know your motion is losing efficiency because your hands too weak.

 

If you want the fastest hands possible you do it right at transition, but you can't have both. Fast hands early means you completely transferred energy to them. BUTTT you don't get to break physics and get the best of both worlds though. If the hands have all that speed it won't get to clubhead.

 

Again, Don't confuse the hands taking or holding more energy with speed.

 

And if you add too much hand speed to a clean/press you will get the weight to close to your face that you've made the weight too heavy and won't be able to press it up because you're hands went outward to fast. If its light enough you can V GFR it tho.

 

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you was busy training hand speed LOL

 

 

Do you type your comments into google translate, then switch them from english to spanish and then spanish to french and then french to english again? Pure gobbledygook. The sign of understanding something is being able to explain it in a way that a layperson can understand. Not this.

 

You don't have to understand what I mean by hand speed. Just what you mean by it - you know, to demonstrate what you're talking about.

 

 

[SteelyDan]

10 minutes ago, Carolina Golfer 2 said:

I just started the RypStick program, 3 sessions in.  I think Luke Benoit even mentions this in the intro, almost like "fine print" disclaimer, that if you don't have proper sequencing then your gains will be minimal.  

 

@SteelyDan  Just curious how long or what level are you at in the program? 

I just stared with level 2. I achieved above numbers after about 8 session into level 1, no additional gains so far.