What do you swing “towards”?

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, jmoor4 said:

I believe them to be very informative and enlightening but not everyone swims in the same pool.  

He’s been wrong on everything he posted. Iacas is an instructor. Theres nothing the cavs5 has said in any thread that isn’t anything more than him spouting off his own ideas which are contradictory to everything that happens in a swing 

[cav5]

3 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

He’s been wrong on everything he posted. Iacas is an instructor. Theres nothing the cavs5 has said in any thread that isn’t anything more than him spouting off his own ideas which are contradictory to everything that happens in a swing 

 

I taught myself from no talent to 60s in tournament rounds. Thats with almost zero practice, just thinking about it better. I know it and can do it.

 

You think because iacas says shaft bend is way down the list, it is? because of what? that he's an instructor? LOL you're an easy sell.

 

He and you doesn't realize shaft bend controls every angle you have "facts" on. Way down the list LOL. Its the immediate touch of the clubhead.

[cav5]

1 hour ago, jmoor4 said:

 

 

There is a ton to learn in that video. Watch it all the time. At that speed, the bend is going to be absent (or absent enough to create demonstrable arc) so you need to keep the clubhead in the center of the clock and hands rotating around it.I know when I say that it seems like I mean the hands are moving backwards but remember the clubhead has momentum. So there is a chase and rotation that you can't see which makes them bascially look on top always.

[GoGoErky]

3 minutes ago, cav5 said:

 

I taught myself from no talent to 60s in tournament rounds. Thats with almost zero practice, just thinking about it better. I know it and can do it.

 

You think because iacas says shaft bend is way down the list, it is? because of what? that he's an instructor? LOL you're an easy sell.

 

He and you doesn't realize shaft bend controls every angle you have "facts" on. Way down the list LOL. Its the immediate touch of the clubhead.

Good for you, there’s like professionals in multiple sports that got to high levels and could teach or tell someone what is happening or why. Bradley Hughes was a successful professional golfer. You know what he did before he started teaching. He studied and learned the golf swing because he didn’t actually know anything about it other than what he had had done. He also learned a lesson about changing swing for the sake change

 

When there’s actual data that proves your theories wrong it’s not hard to ig pre what you say and go with the person or people on this forum who are actually quite successful at teaching the golf swing and the game of golf and are trusted in the industry.

 

i don’t believe iacas becaus he’s a teacher and says something. I believe him because he’s shown data and has demonstrated actual knowledge of the swing and has been successful at his job.

 

I don’t opine on the swing very often because I don’t prefer looking like a fool when I post. I know what I know and I know what I don’t know. I don’t speak on what I don’t know. You have yet to show any data supporting your ideas or to contradict what the data actually shows. And like your partner who has taken a sebatical the opposite of you say you are doing the opposite happens.

 

Ill stick with the professionals who know what they are actually talking about 

[TheDeanAbides]

19 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Nope. The "3D flat spot" is achieved when the clubhead still lags behind the handle but the handle is going up. In isolation, a clubhead going from / to | would lower the clubhead, but the handle going from a certain height to a higher height would raise the clubhead. Balance those two out and you get the 3D flat spot.

 

The flat spot of a clubhead with a vertical shaft (face-on) is moving from down to up in an instant. Its flat spot is literally an instant, a point in time when the shaft is perfectly vertical (face on view).

I've only been back here for a little while (not being able to play anymore made talking/reading about golf a little too painful), but I'm really pleased to see you posting regularly. It's good to have another excellent pro on Wrx - I genuinely enjoy your posts. 

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

Okay… you're wrong about almost everything you say.

 

Shaft bend is way, way, way, way, way down the list on controlling the flat spot, the AoA, the path, the… anything. It's also not something a player really "controls." It happens.

Nutshell. It's insane that players still talk about consciously controlling anything at all in the entire downswing, let alone the minute fraction of a second in which impact occurs. 

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, jmoor4 said:

 

 

I believe them to be very informative and enlightening but not everyone swims in the same pool.  

This is the problem. If somebody presents fallacious information in language that seems intelligent it bypasses our bullshirt detector. This is even more likely if we're lost and looking for answers. Caveat emptor.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, jmoor4 said:

 

There is more than 'a swing', there are swings, plural, and probably causes difficulties talking about them all as one.   

You are correct and that’s what makes someone like iacas and monte who both contribute a wealth of knowledge to the forum and do a great job of pointing out the bad information shared by members on this forum. Not only do they point out the bad information they speak to what the truth actually is. 
 

some people talk a lot and say nothing and what they say is also incorrect. Those people have been pointed out over and over by the experts on here. 
 

Ifs better to trust the experts who have results of teaching multi different people and how they move than thoae who opine with no results and no data.

 

jim furyk has a major, does he understand the various swings or is he just good at what he does his way. Bubba Watson also self taught and has two green jackets and never had a lesson. Does he understand the nuances of the golf swing or does he understand what he did to get to where he’s at and what he has to do when the wheels start to fall off, or what he needs for himself to work on at the range.

 

not many can be great like Padraig Harrington and then turnaround and do what’s he’s been doing with the content he has been putting out.

 

 

[GoGoErky]

18 minutes ago, jmoor4 said:

That's great and they should offer their opinion, that's probably why they're here, and maybe sell lessons too.    

 

They are here to help the community and contribute as were several other instructors, very similar to fitters in the site. Neither push lessons with themselves which is great.

 

they do a good job at debunking the bad information that gets posted by non experts so that those who come to read the forum get the right information.

 

It’s up to the individual readers to make the decision on what to believe or not. For me I’d rather trust the people who are respected and trusted in the industry over a member posting their rumblings about what they think even if they continue to ramble after being presented with the truth.

 

22 minutes ago, jmoor4 said:

I don't know what either could, or would, bring to a lesson tee but I wouldn't bet either of them lacking an ability to go beyond their own sequence and teach any student a good sequence based on what the student brings to the table.     They probably know swing strokes like Bonham knew percussion strokes, my opinion and general observation. 

Maybe they do, maybe they don’t.

But if they were talking and both Harmon interrupt and says what they are saying is incorrect, are you going to

belie e the pro because he taught himself how to pay golf and had success or are you goin to listen to Butch who has spent a lifetime teaching multiple golfers of different builds, speed and swing styles who also presents the data to back up why he’s correct and the pro is wrong.

 

Now back to the original topic 

[TheDeanAbides]

50 minutes ago, jmoor4 said:

 

That's great and they should offer their opinion, that's probably why they're here, and maybe sell lessons too.    

 

 

I don't know what either could, or would, bring to a lesson tee but I wouldn't bet either of them lacking an ability to go beyond their own sequence and teach any student a good sequence based on what the student brings to the table.     They probably know swing strokes like Bonham knew percussion strokes, my opinion and general observation. 

You'd be amazed at how little most elite players know about the mechanics of the swing. They don't have time to sit on their keyboards and learn from the many internet geniuses...

[cav5]

5 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

You'd be amazed at how little most elite players know about the mechanics of the swing. They don't have time to sit on their keyboards and learn from the many internet geniuses...

 

Yes it's because a golf motion isn't taught. Its learned. None of it needs to be known. Thats why ever thread here you need 4 different instructors to tell you 4 different feels to correctly interpret what so and so is saying.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

He’s been wrong on everything he posted. Iacas is an instructor. Theres nothing the cavs5 has said in any thread that isn’t anything more than him spouting off his own ideas which are contradictory to everything that happens in a swing 

 

Not everything. He's demonstrated that he understands that the clubhead is the end of the club that hits the ball, ideally. And a few other things like that. 😉

 

7 hours ago, cav5 said:

I taught myself from no talent to 60s in tournament rounds. Thats with almost zero practice, just thinking about it better. I know it and can do it.

 

Cool.

 

7 hours ago, cav5 said:

You think because iacas says shaft bend is way down the list, it is? because of what? that he's an instructor? LOL you're an easy sell.

 

Uhm, because it is, and because we can demonstrate this and measure it and prove it. You're saying things that are quite literally invalid, incorrect, false.

 

7 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

i don’t believe iacas becaus he’s a teacher and says something. I believe him because he’s shown data and has demonstrated actual knowledge of the swing and has been successful at his job.

 

I try.

 

I'm also always skeptical of people who say "mystical" sounding things… but can't show any data, any high-speed video… nothing to back it up. Particularly when it goes against common sense (which isn't infallible), geometry, what the game's best players tend to do… etc.

 

Plenty of good players got good without knowing much of anything about how the golf swing works, how the science (biomechanics, geometry, physics, etc.) work.

 

6 hours ago, jmoor4 said:

There is more than 'a swing', there are swings, plural, and probably causes difficulties talking about them all as one.   

 

That's not what he's saying ther.e

 

4 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Bubba Watson also self taught and has two green jackets and never had a lesson.

 

Bubba has had a ton of lessons, he's just never called and scheduled a lesson. He's talked to and worked with people many, many, many times. He's never had a "formal" lesson, though.

 

3 hours ago, jmoor4 said:

That's great and they should offer their opinion, that's probably why they're here, and maybe sell lessons too.

 

🤣

 

No.

 

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

They are here to help the community and contribute as were several other instructors, very similar to fitters in the site. Neither push lessons with themselves which is great.

 

Almost nobody on here live near Erie. I'm just here to talk about stuff with people of a like mind. It's interesting to me. That's all.

 

I learn a bit all the time here, even if it's just learning what other people think, or how they perceive their own swings, what they find difficult, etc.

 

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

It’s up to the individual readers to make the decision on what to believe or not. For me I’d rather trust the people who are respected and trusted in the industry over a member posting their rumblings about what they think even if they continue to ramble after being presented with the truth.

 

FWIW, and maybe you know this, but I don't expect or even want people to "trust" me just because of who I am. I want people to call me on stuff that they think is wrong, or poorly fleshed out, or whatever. But come with facts, not just "I got down to a +2 by thinking about how bending the shaft can do whatever" mystical BS.

 

2 hours ago, cav5 said:

Yes it's because a golf motion isn't taught. Its learned.

 

Still beating that (wrong) drum again. Another guy says on a podcast pretty often: "If learning didn't take place, teaching didn't either."

 

2 hours ago, cav5 said:

Thats why ever thread here you need 4 different instructors to tell you 4 different feels to correctly interpret what so and so is saying.

 

Actually… it's kind of annoying how often Monte and I see the same things and prescribe the same types of things. 😜

[KD1]

9 hours ago, cav5 said:

I taught myself from no talent to 60s in tournament rounds. Thats with almost zero practice, just thinking about it better. I know it and can do it.

 

Okay but can you do it right handed and left handed?

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

10 hours ago, cav5 said:

I taught myself from no talent to 60s in tournament rounds. Thats with almost zero practice, just thinking about it better. I know it and can do it.

 

Cool.

 

Hmmm, let me think....  Wow!  I just won the US Open!

[PedronNiall]

7 hours ago, jmoor4 said:

 

That's what it's starting to look like.  How many instructors actually post here do you know?  

 

Peak hilarity. The bosom buddies on "the golf swing can't be taught/can't be taught by instructors" hang out in the golf instruction section casually dropping their own magical pearls of wisdom that supposedly only they understand, patting each other on the back, and insisting they know things that neither the pros nor the instructors truly get.

 

One says the guys on Tour don't even understand what's going on in the swing, let alone how they get it done. The other says pros know the swing inside and out and could teach anyone with a decent foundation all that's needed to perfect the swing; instructors not so much. Sounds like you two need to huddle up and figure out what's what before everyone realizes you're contradicting each other despite your torrid affair. 

 

Tweedle X: "Golf can't be taught, but here are the absolutes I know to be true. Yes, you can learn the concepts I explain. Well, yes, if you're learning then I guess technically I'm teaching. No, no, that doesn't mean golf can be taught. Ignore the guy cosigning my posts but also undermining them with his own shtick. Okay, I've confused myself, let me start over... Don't worry, I'll slip out of the thread once I've trolled enough and sent more people down rabbit holes."

 

Tweedle Y: "Me? I've figured out Hogan's secret. I'm just slumming it here in regular golf land while I get a few things together and plan my ascension to the heights of the golfing world. Oh my, a kindred spirit who speaks in vagaries and also thinks he has it all figured out. Be still my heart. I'd better get to hyping him up so we can be besties. It's been lonely out here being the only one who knows it all. My lurking has finally paid off."

 

Perhaps the end times are near so we can all be saved from this inanity. 

[iacas]

26 minutes ago, jmoor4 said:

Glad to see a pro comment on this as it's a good question I reckon. So, if a shaft is really out of control, and bend just happens, how does the shaft's forward flex into the ball from a lagged condition know where the ball is?  Does the shaft have to guess, surely not, but how is this reconciled?  

 

The shaft, much like some people, is not capable of sentience.

[KD1]

https://www.gearssports.com/articles/shaft-metrics-defined-deflection-droop-twist-ratio/

 

You're talking about millimeters that you're not going to be able to measure on an iphone camera. Unless every practice swing is on gears how are you going to begin control these variables? I don't know about you but access to GEARS is a $400 minimum where I am.

 

Start with a decent swing and get fitted by a good fitter and forget about it.

 

When you go get fitted for new running shoes you don't pronate or supinate your ankles to fit the shoe, you pick the shoe that's best for you.

 

True, the few times I've been fitted for clubs they've always started with finding the right shaft, but not once have I been asked to adjust my swing for the shaft. The last time I actually was fitted on gears and coach found the shaft with the droop, deflection, etc. that he liked and never asked me to change my swing to suit the shaft. And neither had he in my lessons before or after because they weren't gears lessons and he would just be guessing... and I'm a weekend hacker with much bigger fish to fry.

 

 

Edited March 25 by KD1

[Conner Golf]

On 3/18/2024 at 6:08 PM, Mike412 said:

I know this is a little strange but I don’t really know how else to ask. What is your intent coming into contact? Do you swing at the ball, the target, or do you just think about the angle up or down you want to come in to the ball? I’ve always been a strong iron player but have been struggling with distance recently, as in 10-15 yard shorter than usual. Same clubs and balls. They actually feel solid and close to center contact but they just come off dead. I feel like I’m hitting too much down on it maybe and wondering if I need to change my intent of what I’m actually swinging at. Again, weird question I know, but I’m searching at the moment.

 

    Coming into contact I have three main aims, my lead hand I aim/swing just past its set up position. My right hand aims to swing down and around my left hand, directly between my left hand and my ball at contact and center contact with my clubface.   

[virtuoso]

On 3/18/2024 at 6:08 PM, Mike412 said:

I know this is a little strange but I don’t really know how else to ask. What is your intent coming into contact? Do you swing at the ball, the target, or do you just think about the angle up or down you want to come in to the ball? I’ve always been a strong iron player but have been struggling with distance recently, as in 10-15 yard shorter than usual. Same clubs and balls. They actually feel solid and close to center contact but they just come off dead. I feel like I’m hitting too much down on it maybe and wondering if I need to change my intent of what I’m actually swinging at. Again, weird question I know, but I’m searching at the moment.

 

You’re working toward throw out (both arms straight post impact). So, if you had a med ball in both hands and made a swing motion, you would be thinking about throwing it into the ground about 5 feet past the ball position, and about a foot left of the target line. That feel would cause a lot of good arm swing and pivot action movements to happen and would synchronize things well.

Edited March 26 by virtuoso