Playing 18 holes on a 9 hole course -- shotgun start -- Front/Back 9 Definition

[larrybud]

Ok, this is a little odd since it's pretty uncommon.

 

• 9 hole course, but playing 18 holes (players loop back from #9 to hole #1)
• Group of 20 players in foursomes, shotgun start, one group each on holes 1-5.
• Guys are playing a Nassau in their own group. For those unfamiliar, a separate bet for front 9, back 9, and totals.
• Edit: There is only 1 set of tees and pin on this course.

 

Since it's a shotgun, how would you define the "front 9" and "back 9" for the guys starting on holes 2-5. For example, if I'm starting on the 4th hole, I play holes 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. Then, since it's only a 9 hole course, I physically play holes 1 through 3. 

 

When I go back to hole #1 (the first time), would you say that I should write my score on Hole #1 of the scorecard, or hole #10 of the scorecard? For overall total score it doesn't matter, but it definitely matters when playing a Nassau.

 

There could be two trains of thought:

 

• The first 9 holes which I play is my "front 9"
• OR -- per the USGA "holes are played in order", which seems to imply that when you roll back to hole #1 (the first time), that would be considered "hole #10".

 

Edited March 25 by larrybud

[st1800e]

20 minutes ago, larrybud said:

per the USGA "holes are played in order", which seems to imply that when you roll back to hole #1, that would be considered "hole #10".

This.  

[davep043]

1 hour ago, larrybud said:

Ok, this is a little odd since it's pretty uncommon.

 

• 9 hole course, but playing 18 holes (players loop back from #9 to hole #1)
• Group of 20 players in foursomes, shotgun start, one group each on holes 1-5.
• Guys are playing a Nassau in their own group. For those unfamiliar, a separate bet for front 9, back 9, and totals.

 

Since it's a shotgun, how would you define the "front 9" and "back 9" for the guys starting on holes 2-5. For example, if I'm starting on the 4th hole, I play holes 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. Then, since it's only a 9 hole course, I physically play holes 1 through 3. 

 

When I go back to hole #1 (the first time), would you say that I should write my score on Hole #1 of the scorecard, or hole #10 of the scorecard? For overall total score it doesn't matter, but it definitely matters when playing a Nassau.

 

There could be two trains of though:

 

• The first 9 holes which I play is my "front 9"
• OR -- per the USGA "holes are played in order", which seems to imply that when you roll back to hole #1, that would be considered "hole #10".

 

Personally, I think the first 9 holes the group plays should constitute the "front nine" for Nassau purposes.  It just seems simpler that way.  Otherwise, when a group comes to hole 1 the second time (for their final few holes) one 9-hole match will end, and a partially completed 9-hole match will resume.  

[nsxguy]

54 minutes ago, larrybud said:

Ok, this is a little odd since it's pretty uncommon.

 

• 9 hole course, but playing 18 holes (players loop back from #9 to hole #1)
• Group of 20 players in foursomes, shotgun start, one group each on holes 1-5.
• Guys are playing a Nassau in their own group. For those unfamiliar, a separate bet for front 9, back 9, and totals.

 

Since it's a shotgun, how would you define the "front 9" and "back 9" for the guys starting on holes 2-5. For example, if I'm starting on the 4th hole, I play holes 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. Then, since it's only a 9 hole course, I physically play holes 1 through 3. 

 

When I go back to hole #1 (the first time), would you say that I should write my score on Hole #1 of the scorecard, or hole #10 of the scorecard? For overall total score it doesn't matter, but it definitely matters when playing a Nassau.

 

There could be two trains of though:

 

• The first 9 holes which I play is my "front 9"
• OR -- per the USGA "holes are played in order", which seems to imply that when you roll back to hole #1, that would be considered "hole #10".

 

 

I'm a little confused.

 

Are you referring to entering your score for handicap purposes or how to play the Nassau ?

 

For playing the Nassau within your own group I think the only way my old group would play it is 1st 9 holes played, regardless of where you start, would be the "front" and the last 9 you play the back.

 

 

As for entering on GHIN, it sounds like you believe there's no issue,,,,,,, but it seems a little bit complicated for a shotgun depending on whether there is only 1 tee set for each "color",,,,,,,, or 2.

[larrybud]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I'm a little confused.

 

Are you referring to entering your score for handicap purposes or how to play the Nassau ?

 

For handicapping it really won't matter, since you're entering an 18 hole score.
 

[Newby]

10 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

For handicapping it really won't matter, since you're entering an 18 hole score.
 

And the scores should be entered as if you had played the course as 'designed'. ie score hole 1 as if it was played first even if you started at hole 3.

 

2.1/1 – Score is Acceptable for Handicap Purposes Even If Holes Have
Not Been Played in the Order Set by the Committee
Rule 5.1 of the Rules of Golf requires holes in a round to be played in the order set
by either the Committee in charge of the competition or the Committee in charge
of the golf course. However, a score is acceptable for handicap purposes even if
the holes in a round have not been played in the order set by the Committee.
For example:
l When the golf course is busy and starting at an alternative hole will allow a
quicker pace of play.
l When playing holes in a different order will allow more players to complete
their rounds, particularly during periods when daylight is limited.

Edited March 23 by Newby

[larrybud]

1 minute ago, Newby said:

And the scores should be entered as if you had played the course as 'designed'. ie score hole 1 as if it was played first even if you started at hole 3.

Sure, but that has no bearing on the bet.

[Newby]

7 minutes ago, larrybud said:

Sure, but that has no bearing on the bet.

I was following up nsxguy's post

[Augster]

You can do it either way. Play holes 5-9 and put that match “on hold” then do the backside bet 10-18, then resume the front side bet knowing how it ends, which is really odd. 
 

The better way, IMO, is to just start the match on the first hole you play and end that side on the 9th hole you play. It makes way more sense to do it that way in match play. Doing it this way lets the weaker players know when to start choking. It’s weird playing a match 5-13, but it’s fair to both sides. 
 

 

 

[nsxguy]

18 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

For handicapping it really won't matter, since you're entering an 18 hole score.
 

 

Well, it could matter if you're not careful.

 

Don't know about your course, but some 9-hole courses have only one set of tees per "color".

 

Others have 2 different tee sets for each color. So, if there are 2 tee sets per color you need to be careful you play either from the same tee set for all 18 holes OR 9 holes, 1-9 from one tee and the other 1-9 from the other for an 18 hole score.

 

So, let's say you play the BLUE tees. There are forward BLUES and back BLUES. The 9-hole course has different ratings by tee set.

 

Take Frosty Valley (PA), a 9-hole course with 2 tee positions (forward and back) for each color.

 

If you play 18 holes, GHIN is expecting you to use the forward BLUE tees for one instance of 9 holes of 1-9 and the other tee set for your 2nd 9 holes 1-9. Each tee set has different 9-hole ratings and GHIN has both and 18-hole rating, and separate 9-hole ratings based on forward or back.

 

So if you play all 18 holes from the same set of BLUE tees, you'll have to enter the score manually - double the 9-hole rating from the tee set you played from band use the slope for those tees.

 

To make it a bit MORE fun, since it's a shotgun start, you have to be careful to play each 1-9 set of holes from the front or back tee set.

 

i.e., if you START your 18-hole round at the 4th hole using the forward BLUE tees, you need to play YOUR 1st 6 holes from, say, the forward BLUE tees.

 

THEN switch to the back BLUE tees for the next 9 (1-9), YOUR holes 7-15.

 

And then, for YOUR last 3 holes, 16-18, you need to go back to using the front BLUE tees. You can, of course, use the backs first and then the fronts, but you get the idea.

 

That way you'd have 2 "different" 9s and could post an 18-hole score using the 18-hole rating/slope in the GHIN system.

 

I think I've got that right but that's what I meant earlier when I said it could be a little complicated.

 

Edited March 24 by nsxguy

[st1800e]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

The better way, IMO, is to just start the match on the first hole you play and end that side on the 9th hole you play.

Exactly.   What’s confusing in all this is the OP asked where to write the score down,  as in putting scores in the “wrong holes” would make sense.  It could matter for your handicap if you’re entering hole by hole scores.  If it’s just a total score that is to be entered then it doesn’t matter.  
 

Now someone will ask for the Nassau , which I assume is match play, where do I get my strokes?  A shotgun start will then give strokes on a different order than the card intended, assuming said card has the order of stroke holes somewhat assigned properly.  

[antip]

4 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

For handicapping it really won't matter, since you're entering an 18 hole score.
 

It often does matter, the handicap indexing is different front nine and back nine and on many nine hole course there can be different tee positions or hole/green positions.

 

 

[antip]

Golf rules are clear - the holes must be played in correct order.

 

And golf rules do not have a Nassau rule - you can do whatever for the side bets.

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, antip said:

It often does matter, the handicap indexing is different front nine and back nine and on many nine hole course there can be different tee positions or hole/green positions.

 

 

 

I cannot see how it would matter if all 18 holes are played as they are supposed to be played, regardless of the order. One just needs to separate front and back 9 holes from each other. Maybe that is what you mean.

[antip]

29 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I cannot see how it would matter if all 18 holes are played as they are supposed to be played, regardless of the order. One just needs to separate front and back 9 holes from each other. Maybe that is what you mean.

There is the small matter of the 6.1b(2) DQ.  

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, antip said:

There is the small matter of the 6.1b(2) DQ.  

 

It seems we are still talking about different things but fortunately I know what you are talking about and I agree with you as that was what I was talking about, play all holes as they are meant to be played.

[larrybud]

12 hours ago, antip said:

It often does matter, the handicap indexing is different front nine and back nine and on many nine hole course there can be different tee positions or hole/green positions.

 

 

 

It's a 9 hole course. The relative hole difficulties will be the same whether playing front or back, with front usually odd numbered, back being even numbered. The only question is when does the front or back begin and end when starting on a hole other than 1.

Tees/pins are the same on each "side"

Edited March 24 by larrybud

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

It's a 9 hole course. The relative hole difficulties will be the same whether playing front or back, with front usually odd numbered, back being even numbered. The only question is when does the front or back begin and end when starting on a hole other than 1.

Tees/pins are the same on each "side"

 

If there is only 1 set of tees for each color, as you said earlier, there is no problem with posting for handicaps.

 

You're also playing the course in order, even with the shotgun start.

 

As I suggested in the beginning, I don't see how you can do the Nassau any other way than, when starting at 4, you play through to, and end on 3. "Back 9" the same.

The only issue I can see with this is where each 9-hole Nassau ends.

 

In match play it is less desirable to have the last hole of a match to be "too" difficult as the player/team that needs the stroke on that last hole may already have lost by then. And of course, the overall bet could also end that way.

e.g. Start on hole 4 and hole 3, your last of each 9 may be #1 handicap/hardest hole - or it may be the #9 handicap/easiest hole.

Edited March 24 by nsxguy

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, larrybud said:

 

It's a 9 hole course. The relative hole difficulties will be the same whether playing front or back, 

 

Nope.

 

Although I do not understand what are "relative hole difficulties". In my world there are only "hole indeces" and they are what they are, no relatives.

 

 

Edited March 24 by Mr. Bean

[naval2006]

On 3/23/2024 at 1:30 PM, larrybud said:

Ok, this is a little odd since it's pretty uncommon.

 

• 9 hole course, but playing 18 holes (players loop back from #9 to hole #1)
• Group of 20 players in foursomes, shotgun start, one group each on holes 1-5.
• Guys are playing a Nassau in their own group. For those unfamiliar, a separate bet for front 9, back 9, and totals.
• Edit: There is only 1 set of tees and pin on this course.

 

Since it's a shotgun, how would you define the "front 9" and "back 9" for the guys starting on holes 2-5. For example, if I'm starting on the 4th hole, I play holes 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. Then, since it's only a 9 hole course, I physically play holes 1 through 3. 

 

When I go back to hole #1 (the first time), would you say that I should write my score on Hole #1 of the scorecard, or hole #10 of the scorecard? For overall total score it doesn't matter, but it definitely matters when playing a Nassau.

 

There could be two trains of though:

 

• The first 9 holes which I play is my "front 9"
• OR -- per the USGA "holes are played in order", which seems to imply that when you roll back to hole #1, that would be considered "hole #10".

 

I play tournaments in 9 hole tracks. We ALWAYS follow the scorecard no matter where you tee off, which is the rules of golf and there’s nothing left to interpretation. Committees know that and they’d never come out with anything too farfetched because they’d end up with loads of complaints that they could’ve avoided in the first place. 
 

More informal leagues or golf trips should follow the simple and least troublesome: ROG.

[Newby]

14 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Nope.

 

Although I do not understand what are "relative hole difficulties". In my world there are only "hole indeces" and they are what they are, no relatives.

 

 

We have 'stroke indices'  😉

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

We have 'stroke indices'  😉

 

I think they are relatively the same 😆

 

EDIT: In Finnish we say "hole indeces", not "stroke indeces", hence the incorrect English term.

 

Edited March 25 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

14 hours ago, naval2006 said:

I play tournaments in 9 hole tracks. We ALWAYS follow the scorecard no matter where you tee off, which is the rules of golf and there’s nothing left to interpretation. 

 

Yes, that is how it is always done.

 

But to think of it there is a slight problem. In case of draw the back nine may be the one to determine the order of two (or more) players, or 6 last or 3 last holes or the last hole. Reason for that is these holes are played in the end of the round when players are more tired than in the beginning and a player with better stamina is "better". In a shotgun start the 9's are reversed for some players and they get a small advantage that way, at least in theory.

 

[larrybud]

18 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Nope.

 

Although I do not understand what are "relative hole difficulties". In my world there are only "hole indeces" and they are what they are, no relatives.

 

Hole index values are relative to one another, and that's what matters in match play. If you're getting 5 shots, it would be the "5 lowest" indexes. In this case, the 5 lowest will always be the same hole numbers, whether I'm using the front 9 indexes or the back 9 indexes, because the relative value in the hole indexes will be the same, whether the front 9 indexes are used or the back 9 indexes are used.

Here's a very simple example:

 

If I start on the 5th hole and I'm getting 5 shots, I still get shots on holes 1,2,3,4,5 if I start on #1, or holes 5, 10,11,12,13 if I start on hole #5.  Remember, holes 10-18 are physically the SAME HOLES as 1-9, because this is a 9 hole course.

 

Edited March 25 by larrybud

[larrybud]

16 hours ago, naval2006 said:

I play tournaments in 9 hole tracks. We ALWAYS follow the scorecard no matter where you tee off, which is the rules of golf and there’s nothing left to interpretation. Committees know that and they’d never come out with anything too farfetched because they’d end up with loads of complaints that they could’ve avoided in the first place. 
 

More informal leagues or golf trips should follow the simple and least troublesome: ROG.

You always follow the scorecard, meaning what, that if I start on the 4th hole, the front 9 match is interrupted when we go to the 10th hole and play 10-18, then the front 9 match is completed when we get back to "hole 1"?

[Mr. Bean]

11 minutes ago, larrybud said:

 

Well, YEP. Of course hole indexes are relative to one another, and that's what matters in match play. If you're getting 5 shots, it would be the "5 lowest" indexes. In this case, the 5 lowest will always be the same hole numbers, whether I'm using the front 9 indexes or the back 9 indexes, because the relative value in the hole indexes will be the same, whether the front 9 indexes are used or the back 9 indexes are used.

Here's a very simple example:

 

If I start on the 5th hole and I'm getting 5 shots, I still get shots on holes 1,2,3,4,5 whether I use the front 9 indexes, or the back 9 indexes. Remember, holes 10-18 are physically the SAME HOLES as 1-9, because this is a 9 hole course.

 

 

You are correct, I forgot we were talking about a 9-hole course, my thoughts were on an 18-hole course.

[Newby]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I think they are relatively the same 😆

 

EDIT: In Finnish we say "hole indeces", not "stroke indeces", hence the incorrect English term.

 

The plural of the noun index is indices, although indexes is often used in the USA, arguably incorrectly, as it is really the present tense of the verb (to) index

Edited March 25 by Newby

[iacas]

53 minutes ago, Newby said:

The plural of the noun index is indices, although indexes is often used in the USA, arguably incorrectly, as it is really the present tense of the verb (to) index

 

"Indexes" is acceptable. Let's not do this version of pedantry or American vs. UK English.

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/index

 

[Newby]

I thought all rules aficionados were pedants  😉

[iacas]

27 minutes ago, Newby said:

I thought all rules aficionados were pedants  😉

 

When it suits us, of course. 😄

 

I've almost given up on trying to make the distinction between "force" and "pressure" in the instruction topics. You may have to do similarly with "indexes."