Course ratings for the WHS in Ireland (and perhaps the rest of GB)

[jvincent]

Hello to my Irish friends.

 

I'm just back from a week in the northwest of Ireland (Ballyliffin (both courses), Rosapenna (all three), Narin & Portnoo, Portsalon, and Donegal), and when my buddies and I were posting our scores we were really surprised at how low the slope ratings for the all those courses are.

 

We played from tees the same length as what we play at home (6500-6700 yards) and the course ratings seemed to be in line with what we expected, i.e. within a half stroke of par.  But the slopes seemed very low. 

 

Our course at home is a parkland course with typical, for North America, rough off the fairway of varying width depending on the hole, and then after that either OB or forest. Where we are, there are no long parallel penalty areas bordering the holes. So, unless you hit a really wild tee shot, you are very unlikely to lose a ball off the fairway.

 

Compare that to the courses listed above where once you get off the fairway you are very quickly into the sea grass/moss. We lost a pretty significant number of balls in the long grass/moss that at home would have been easily found given how far offline they were. They might have required a punch out from behind a tree, but that's it.

 

Our slope rating at home, and this is generally true for most of the courses of similar difficulty that I have played around North America, is 131. For the courses we played the average slope was around 122. Given the severity of the penalty for a missed fairway that just seemed way too low for us. 

 

Has anyone else noticed the same thing? I know in NA there are always debates about whether a given course has the correct rating/slope but since slope is relatively new to GB&I I was wondering what other people think.

 

Our group ranged from scratch to an 8-index and to a man we all said that in a net competition a team from Ireland would mop the floor with us.

 

Are the slope ratings in NA too high? Are the Irish one's too low? Are we just a bunch of cry-babies that need to man up? 

 

I should also note that we played in pretty benign weather. Sunny all week and other than part of one round winds were at most two clubs.

 

 

[klebs01]

34 minutes ago, jvincent said:

Hello to my Irish friends.

 

I'm just back from a week in the northwest of Ireland (Ballyliffin (both courses), Rosapenna (all three), Narin & Portnoo, Portsalon, and Donegal), and when my buddies and I were posting our scores we were really surprised at how low the slope ratings for the all those courses are.

 

We played from tees the same length as what we play at home (6500-6700 yards) and the course ratings seemed to be in line with what we expected, i.e. within a half stroke of par.  But the slopes seemed very low. 

 

Our course at home is a parkland course with typical, for North America, rough off the fairway of varying width depending on the hole, and then after that either OB or forest. Where we are, there are no long parallel penalty areas bordering the holes. So, unless you hit a really wild tee shot, you are very unlikely to lose a ball off the fairway.

 

Compare that to the courses listed above where once you get off the fairway you are very quickly into the sea grass/moss. We lost a pretty significant number of balls in the long grass/moss that at home would have been easily found given how far offline they were. They might have required a punch out from behind a tree, but that's it.

 

Our slope rating at home, and this is generally true for most of the courses of similar difficulty that I have played around North America, is 131. For the courses we played the average slope was around 122. Given the severity of the penalty for a missed fairway that just seemed way too low for us. 

 

Has anyone else noticed the same thing? I know in NA there are always debates about whether a given course has the correct rating/slope but since slope is relatively new to GB&I I was wondering what other people think.

 

Our group ranged from scratch to an 8-index and to a man we all said that in a net competition a team from Ireland would mop the floor with us.

 

Are the slope ratings in NA too high? Are the Irish one's too low? Are we just a bunch of cry-babies that need to man up? 

 

I should also note that we played in pretty benign weather. Sunny all week and other than part of one round winds were at most two clubs.

 

 

Slope doesn’t measure difficulty. It’s just the ratio between the scratch and bogey rating. It seems the long grass wouldn’t impact the scratch and bogey golfer that differently thus the slope is lower. 

[jvincent]

Just now, klebs01 said:

Slope doesn’t measure difficulty. It’s just the ratio between the scratch and bogey rating. It seems the long grass wouldn’t impact the scratch and bogey golfer that differently thus the slope is lower. 

 

Of course slope represents difficulty. The higher the slope, the more difficult it is for the non-scratch golfer.

 

Quoting directly from the USGA:

 

Q. What is a Slope Rating™ and what does it represent?

A. Playing length and obstacles impact higher-handicap players more than lower-handicap players, and Slope Rating measures the relative difficulty of a golf course for players who are not scratch players compared to those who are scratch players.

It is determined by comparing the Course Rating™ to the Bogey Rating™. A course of standard difficulty has a Slope Rating of 113. (Appendix G, Rules of Handicapping)

[Newby]

The USGA rating system had been used in GB & Ireland for many years prior to WHS.

The only authority not using the USGA system was the men's English Golf Union (prior to their merger with the English Women's Golf Union).

In anticipation of and prior to WHS, the now England Golf adopted the USGA system. 

The Slope values were not used in the CONGU handicap system but were available to all overseas visitors (primarily from the USGA). 

 

Perhaps the raters in that part of Ireland believe that "once you get off the fairway you are very quickly into the sea grass/moss. We lost a pretty significant number of balls in the long grass/moss that at home would have been easily found"  is not a particularly punitive area as that is what they are used to.

 

Certainly, the raters are very unlikely to have been to the US as part of their training.

 

Even over here there are members of clubs who complain that their courses are under rated but without really understanding why Carnoustie (for example) has a high slope rating

 

Edited April 29 by Newby

[Rigby48]

I'll second what klebs01 said.  Your home course might not have much in the way of penalty areas but many american courses that are tree lined limit your recovery options.  I find when I play overseas that if I can find the ball I can advance it some amount vs. playing out sideways from behind a tree here in the states.  Even 30-40 yards of advancement is a huge difference when playing that third shot. 

 

Related my home course is relatively short and many low handicappers think the slope is too high.  But it has water or OB on 17 holes and the lowere handicappers don't realize how difficult that is for a bogey golfer.  On our course 3-4 penalty strokes a round are not unusual for someone who is a 14 or above, whereas a scratch golfer just won't hit it offline as often or as far.

[Newby]

8 minutes ago, jvincent said:

The higher the slope, the more difficult it is for the non-scratch golfer.

 

Relative to the difficulty for the scratch golfer.

Edited April 29 by Newby

[Hawkeye77]

Slope absolutely does involve comparing difficulty and evaluating it.

 

Just one example, but I looked up The Old Course and Lahinch.  I was surprised the slope rating for Lanhinch was so much lower, frankly that it was lower, than The Old Course, based on the criteria for slope.  Based on just observing my wife at play (golf), The Old Course played fairly benign for her, Lahinch much more fraught with issues, same for me, lol.  I'd expect more separation from a scratch golfer at Lahinch than The Old Course, much more.

 

But just one example.

Edited April 29 by Hawkeye77

[jvincent]

6 minutes ago, Newby said:

The USGA rating system had been used in GB & Ireland for many years prior to WHS.

The only authority not using the USGA system was the men's English Golf Union (prior to their merger with the English Women's Golf Union).

In anticipation of and prior to WHS, the now England Golf adopted the USGA system. 

The Slope values were not used in the CONGU handicap system but were available to all overseas visitors (primarily from the USGA). 

 

Perhaps the raters in that part of Ireland believe that "once you get off the fairway you are very quickly into the sea grass/moss. We lost a pretty significant number of balls in the long grass/moss that at home would have been easily found"  is not a particularly punitive area as that is what they are used to.

 

Certainly, the raters are very unlikely to have been to the US as part of their training.

 

Even over here there are members of clubs who complain that their courses are under rated but without really understanding why Carnoustie (for example) has a high slope rating

 

 

Thanks for clarifying about the availability of the ratings previously.

 

If in fact they don't see the long grass areas as being punitive, I'd like to get some of what they are smoking. As a specific example, on one occasion the only reason we found a ball is because one of our group noticed the hole it made in the moss.

[jvincent]

13 minutes ago, Rigby48 said:

I'll second what klebs01 said.  Your home course might not have much in the way of penalty areas but many american courses that are tree lined limit your recovery options.  I find when I play overseas that if I can find the ball I can advance it some amount vs. playing out sideways from behind a tree here in the states.  Even 30-40 yards of advancement is a huge difference when playing that third shot. 

 

Related my home course is relatively short and many low handicappers think the slope is too high.  But it has water or OB on 17 holes and the lowere handicappers don't realize how difficult that is for a bogey golfer.  On our course 3-4 penalty strokes a round are not unusual for someone who is a 14 or above, whereas a scratch golfer just won't hit it offline as often or as far.

 

Your second paragraph is a good example of what I'm getting at. The courses we played were nearly the equivalent of lining pretty much every hole with OB. Yes, we found some balls, in terrible lies of course, but many we did not. On average I'd say hitting into the long stuff was the about a 1.25+ stroke penalty. At least with a penalty area you only lose a stroke and likely get to drop in a decent lie.

Edited April 29 by jvincent

[jvincent]

15 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Slope absolutely does involve comparing difficulty and evaluating it.

 

Just one example, but I looked up The Old Course and Lahinch.  I was surprised the slope rating for Lanhinch was so much lower, frankly that it was lower, than The Old Course, based on the criteria for slope.  Based on just observing my wife at play (golf), The Old Course played fairly benign for her, Lahinch much more fraught with issues, same for me, lol.  I'd expect more separation from a scratch golfer at Lahinch than The Old Course, much more.

 

But just one example.

 

Good example.

 

I went and looked at the ratings for some of the courses in Ireland I played last year (Royal Dublin, The Island, Portmarnock) and sure enough the ratings for those more in line with what I would expect and none of those courses have the level of punitive high grass of the fairway.

 

It must be a northwest Ireland thing.

[klebs01]

43 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

Of course slope represents difficulty. The higher the slope, the more difficult it is for the non-scratch golfer.

 

Quoting directly from the USGA:

 

Q. What is a Slope Rating™ and what does it represent?

A. Playing length and obstacles impact higher-handicap players more than lower-handicap players, and Slope Rating measures the relative difficulty of a golf course for players who are not scratch players compared to those who are scratch players.

It is determined by comparing the Course Rating™ to the Bogey Rating™. A course of standard difficulty has a Slope Rating of 113. (Appendix G, Rules of Handicapping)

which is a more difficult course:

 

course 1

par 72

rating 72

slope 129

 

course 2

par 72

rating 76.2

Slope 122

[Hawkeye77]

7 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

which is a more difficult course:

 

course 1

par 72

rating 72

slope 129

 

course 2

par 72

rating 76.2

Slope 122

 

Depends on the player and you know "more difficult" wasn't the issue, just discussing slope ratings, which do measure relative difficulty.

 

In my example, the course with the higher rating (and higher slope rating) was the "easier" course (for me and others, actually).  

[Newby]

2 hours ago, jvincent said:

 

Your second paragraph is a good example of what I'm getting at. The courses we played were nearly the equivalent of lining pretty much every hole with OB. Yes, we found some balls, in terrible lies of course, but many we did not. On average I'd say hitting into the long stuff was the about a 1.25+ stroke penalty. At least with a penalty area you only lose a stroke and likely get to drop in a decent lie.

I don't know the courses at all. Are they in the Republic or Ulster? Are they close together? If so, there was possibly one rating team involved which may have had a blind spot re their training.

 

Just realised you mentioned you were 'just back'. A possible explanation is that give the weather this winter, (wet but not feezing) the long stuff will have grown very long and thick and mowing machinery may have not been able to mow it because of the very wet ground. This has been a big issue at courses in the north of England.

[Newby]

2 hours ago, klebs01 said:

which is a more difficult course:

 

course 1

par 72

rating 72

slope 129

 

course 2

par 72

rating 76.2

Slope 122

For whom? The scratch or the bogey player?

What are the bogey ratings for both courses?

Edited April 29 by Newby

[klebs01]

7 minutes ago, Newby said:

For whom? The scratch or the bogey player?

What are the bogey ratings for both courses?

the answer would be course 2 for both. The bogey rating is roughly 96 for course 1 and 99 for course 2. The lower slope doesn’t mean it’s easier. 

[jvincent]

2 hours ago, Newby said:

I don't know the courses at all. Are they in the Republic or Ulster? Are they close together? If so, there was possibly one rating team involved which may have had a blind spot re their training.

 

Just realised you mentioned you were 'just back'. A possible explanation is that give the weather this winter, (wet but not feezing) the long stuff will have grown very long and thick and mowing machinery may have not been able to mow it because of the very wet ground. This has been a big issue at courses in the north of England.

 

All of the courses are in the Republic. The ones with the low (IMHO) ratings are in the northwest region and the ones that make more sense (to me)  are in the Dublin area.

 

The dunes and grass in the northwest are much more penal in the northwest.

[Newby]

7 hours ago, jvincent said:

 

All of the courses are in the Republic. The ones with the low (IMHO) ratings are in the northwest region and the ones that make more sense (to me)  are in the Dublin area.

 

The dunes and grass in the northwest are much more penal in the northwest.

That suggests there may have been a problem with the training of the team(s) in the northwest area. I assume that in effect the training was devolved to the regions.

[Colin L]

16 hours ago, jvincent said:

 

Thanks for clarifying about the availability of the ratings previously.

 

If in fact they don't see the long grass areas as being punitive, I'd like to get some of what they are smoking. As a specific example, on one occasion the only reason we found a ball is because one of our group noticed the hole it made in the moss.

The "punitiveness" of the long grass areas will be reflected, if at all, in the Course Rating.  That rating is based on how the scratch golfer is expected to score.  You should compare the relative difficulty of courses by their course ratings not by their slope ratings.  The slope rating is, as has already been polnted out,  a measure of the rate by which the course is increasingly more difficult for less able players.  Of course slope is about evaluating difficulty but It is a value that has meaning for that course alone since it evaluates the relative dificulty.

 

You said you found the course ratings much as you would have expected them.  How did they compare with the course rating of your home course?   Did any of them have a significantly lower or higher course rating than yours?   If so, did you feel any course with a lower one noticeably more difficult than yours or one with a higher one noticeably easier?  Forget the slope ratings.  All a higher slope rating on another course with the same course rating as yours means is that the scratch golfer is expected to score the same on both.   A difference in slope rating on two courses with the same course rating means that the gap between the scores of less able golfers and the course rating  is expected to widen at a faster rate on the one with the higher slope  as you go up the scale of not being very good but the scratch golfer is expected to score the same on each.  

[jvincent]

2 hours ago, Colin L said:

The "punitiveness" of the long grass areas will be reflected, if at all, in the Course Rating.  That rating is based on how the scratch golfer is expected to score.  You should compare the relative difficulty of courses by their course ratings not by their slope ratings.  The slope rating is, as has already been polnted out,  a measure of the rate by which the course is increasingly more difficult for less able players.  Of course slope is about evaluating difficulty but It is a value that has meaning for that course alone since it evaluates the relative dificulty.

 

You said you found the course ratings much as you would have expected them.  How did they compare with the course rating of your home course?   Did any of them have a significantly lower or higher course rating than yours?   If so, did you feel any course with a lower one noticeably more difficult than yours or one with a higher one noticeably easier?  Forget the slope ratings.  All a higher slope rating on another course with the same course rating as yours means is that the scratch golfer is expected to score the same on both.   A difference in slope rating on two courses with the same course rating means that the gap between the scores of less able golfers and the course rating  is expected to widen at a faster rate on the one with the higher slope  as you go up the scale of not being very good but the scratch golfer is expected to score the same on each.  

 

Umm, so you're saying scratch and bogey golfers hit it with the same degree of accuracy off the tee? Last time I checked, that wasn't the case.

[klebs01]

8 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

Umm, so you're saying scratch and bogey golfers hit it with the same degree of accuracy off the tee? Last time I checked, that wasn't the case.

that’s not what its says. as i showed above, a course with a lower slope can have a higher bogey rating than another course with a higher slope. 

[DaveLeeNC]

41 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

that’s not what its says. as i showed above, a course with a lower slope can have a higher bogey rating than another course with a higher slope. 

 And to put this on a golf hole basis rather than a numbers basis ...

 

Take a dogleg left par 4 where the scratch golfer can carry the dogleg but the bogey golfer is forced to play well right of the dogleg. Now add a bunch of tall trees in the dogleg so that the scratch golfer also cannot carry the dogleg and is forced to play well right. 

 

This change will have a meaningful effect on the course rating and have a very limited effect on the bogey rating. While the course is now obviously harder with the new trees, the slope is going to be reduced. 

 

dave

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, jvincent said:

 

Umm, so you're saying scratch and bogey golfers hit it with the same degree of accuracy off the tee? Last time I checked, that wasn't the case.

Oh dear.  It perhaps says little for my ability to explain slope that you should think I was saying anything of the sort but I cannot see how you can infer that from what I said.   Slope is about the graduated difference in total scores to be expected of increasingly less able golfers compared with a scratch player on the same course.  It doesn't work, to my mind, to isolate particular parts of the game and compare them.  I could be as good a putter as a scratch player but all the good that might do me is  is to save a 9 from becoming a 10 on a particular hole while the scratch player is using his skill to save par.   I'm a bogey golfer and nowadays  probably as accurate off the tee as many a scratch golfer in terms of hitting fairways.   How far down the fairway is another matter. 😄 

 

 

 

 

 

[jvincent]

Ugh, I should have expected this to degenerate into an "do you understand how the rating/handicap system works" arguement.

 

For those that didn't actually read my original post, the lengths and course ratings are essentially the same as what we play in North America. The principle difference in the courses is the type / degree of trouble off of the fairway.

 

You have to do some weird mental gymnastics to come up with a scenario where a course that a tee shot misses a fairway by 20 feet and has a 50% (or greater) chance of being lost is somehow easier for the bogey golfer than a course where you can find the tee shot and be able to play it over 90% of the time.

[Newby]

1 hour ago, jvincent said:

You have to do some weird mental gymnastics to come up with a scenario where a course that a tee shot misses a fairway by 20 feet and has a 50% (or greater) chance of being lost is somehow easier for the bogey golfer than a course where you can find the tee shot and be able to play it over 90% of the time.

It depends on where the 'target areas' are for the scratch and bogey golfers.

If the problem rough is of the same 'intensity' then the rating points allocated to that 'obstacle' would be higher for the bogey player.

But if the problem rough is less or non-existent then the rating points would be lower for the bogey player.

 

But generally, I would agree.

Edited April 30 by Newby

[Mudguard]

On 4/30/2024 at 5:15 AM, jvincent said:

 

Our slope rating at home, and this is generally true for most of the courses of similar difficulty that I have played around North America, is 131. For the courses we played the average slope was around 122. Given the severity of the penalty for a missed fairway that just seemed way too low for us. 

 

 

 

As pointed out. Slope is less about all round difficulty, but more the variance between a 0 and an 18. We've had situations where a tee got moved forward on a hole, but it increased the difficulty of the hole because scratch golfers who could just fly a central fairway bunker, now flew it easily. And your bogey golfer all of a sudden was in reach of it rather than being short of it off the tee. 

I generally think courses with holes next door to each other tend to have lower slopes than say resort courses where you're in houses OB if you miss wide. Regardless of the rough in-between. But that's anecdotal.