Played same nine twice, posted a manual 18. Good or no?

[ChaosTheory]

Due to maintenance, our group had to play the same nine twice.  Rather than end up with two rounds under the new system, we doubled the nine hole rating, used the slope, and did a "manual" 18 hole score entry.  This seems like it should be fine.  Is it? 

[Hawkeye77]

Why not do it the right way? Do the rules provide for entering the way you did, just for whatever reason? Not really a no harm, no foul question, IMO.

[klebs01]

That was the correct way. You put the actual score and the actual rating/slope for the holes played. 

[ChaosTheory]

24 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Why not do it the right way? Do the rules provide for entering the way you did, just for whatever reason? Not really a no harm, no foul question, IMO.

 

What if the right way is the wrong way and the wrong way is the right way?  🙂

 

It seems wrong to play one 18 hole round of golf and have it post as two rounds, with twice the weight of what it deserves.   Then again I know that everyone who plays a 9 hole course is dealing with this every time they play 18.  

 

But anyway, I am asking so that if/when this comes up again, we will be better informed.

 

Edited April 29 by ChaosTheory

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, ChaosTheory said:

 

What if the right way is the wrong way and the wrong way is the right way?  🙂

 

It seems wrong to play one 18 hole round of golf and have it post as two rounds, with twice the weight of what it deserves.   Then again I know that everyone who plays a 9 hole course is dealing with this every time they play 18.  

 

 

 

You played a 9 hole round on an 18 hole course - Rules seem to require entering a score for a 9 hole round (for the proper 9) and if you play twice, do the same again. 

 

Where is this "formula" coming from in the handicapping rules? I'm not seeing it, I guess. 

 

 

[ChaosTheory]

Just now, Hawkeye77 said:

You played a 9 hole round on an 18 hole course - Rules seem to require entering a score for a 9 hole round (for the proper 9) and if you play twice, do the same again. 

 

Where is this "formula" coming from in the handicapping rules? I'm not seeing it, I guess. 

 

 

 

There has always been a manual entry option, for courses that aren't found in the rating database of the system in which you are posting.  If you play an unlisted course and you know the ratings, you can enter the ratings and the score, and it is legitimate.  I used to have to do this often because a local course stopped participating in the system for some reason. 

 

This time my reasoning is that we played an unlisted course, with rating numbers available, so just manually enter it.  It doesn't seem any different than playing the blue tees on the front nine and the whites on the back nine, and manually determining the rating and slope from the nines' numbers.  (Add the ratings and average the slopes.)  I'm  pretty sure that is encouraged because you played a round and therefore it should be posted if at all possible.

[kiawah]

Sounds like you did the right thing

[ChaosTheory]

Again though, I want to be clear that I'm really here to ask what's right, not to argue for what we did.  Explain yes, argue no.  🙂

 

[Hawkeye77]

18 minutes ago, ChaosTheory said:

 

There has always been a manual entry option, for courses that aren't found in the rating database of the system in which you are posting.  If you play an unlisted course and you know the ratings, you can enter the ratings and the score, and it is legitimate.  I used to have to do this often because a local course stopped participating in the system for some reason. 

 

This time my reasoning is that we played an unlisted course, with rating numbers available, so just manually enter it.  It doesn't seem any different than playing the blue tees on the front nine and the whites on the back nine, and manually determining the rating and slope from the nines' numbers.  (Add the ratings and average the slopes.)  I'm  pretty sure that is encouraged because you played a round and therefore it should be posted if at all possible.

 

You didn't say you played an unlisted course.  

 

Still don't see the distinction between a 9 hole round and turning two 9s into 18 when you played a definite and complete 9.

 

The posting if possible isn't relevant.

 

It's done - as I said, I'm not seeing it, and don't have to.

 

I asked because I've never heard of this being done, not to say it's wrong ---- so I shouldn't have originally said the "right" way, that was making an assumption not actually knowing the answer.

Edited April 29 by Hawkeye77

[North Butte]

Not infrequently we have to play the same nine twice for  some reason (course maintenance, other part of the course being used for a tournament, whatever) and for at least the last 20 years I've done the "double the course rating, use the slope" and entered it as a normal 18-hole round. If you play the first nine, then turn and play it again all on the same day that's one round. Not two 9-hole rounds. 

 

I don't know anything in the revamped "WHS" that would change that. If there is something new, saying you have to treat that as separate 9-hole rounds, then I'll add that to my list of silly, ill-considered idiocies of the new system (and I'll ignore it).

Edited April 29 by North Butte

[davep043]

45 minutes ago, ChaosTheory said:

Again though, I want to be clear that I'm really here to ask what's right, not to argue for what we did.  Explain yes, argue no.  🙂

 

 

57 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

You played a 9 hole round on an 18 hole course - Rules seem to require entering a score for a 9 hole round (for the proper 9) and if you play twice, do the same again. 

 

Where is this "formula" coming from in the handicapping rules? I'm not seeing it, I guess. 

This came up in another thread, and the actual Rules aren't clear, so so I specifically asked my Authorized Association (the Virginia State Golf Association).  They confirmed that the preferred way of entering the score(s) when you play two 9-hole rounds in the same day was to enter a single 18-hole score, manually entering the sum of the Course Rating, and the average of the Slope.

Edited April 29 by davep043

[Hawkeye77]

5 minutes ago, davep043 said:

 

This came up in another thread, and the actual Rules aren't clear, so so I specifically asked my Authorized Association (the Virginia State golf Association.  They confirmed that the preferred way of entering the score(s) when you play two 9-hole rounds in the same day was to enter a single 18-hole score, manually entering the sum of the Course Rating, and the average of the Slope.

Thanks Dave, and it sure sounds like many have heard of it and do it.  Seems counterintuitive to me when you can fill in the scores and report the round you actually play on the 9 you played, i.e. just fill it in on the app, BUT not arguing about it.

 

I've always just entered the front 9 twice if I've played it twice in a day whether consecutive or several hours later - was any insight provided as to why that is preferred?  Scratching my head is all, lol.

Edited April 29 by Hawkeye77

[davep043]

5 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I've always just entered the front 9 twice if I've played it twice in a day whether consecutive or several hours later - was any insight provided as to why that is preferred?

They didn't specifically say why.  It seems to me that playing the same 9 twice in a row is essentially a single 18-hole round, so they prefer to treat it that way.  The new method of dealing with 9-hole scores is intended to apply when only 9 holes was played on a single day.

[North Butte]

41 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Thanks Dave, and it sure sounds like many have heard of it and do it.  Seems counterintuitive to me when you can fill in the scores and report the round you actually play on the 9 you played, i.e. just fill it in on the app, BUT not arguing about it.

Two nine hole rounds is not what you "actually played", though.

 

As for entering it on the app, there is an entry field for manually entering course rating/slope/par for courses not rated. That's what you use to enter twice the (9 hole) course rating, the slope and twice the (9 hole) par. 

 

Based on the guidance @DaveP043 received, that has not changed. That's been the procedure for as long as I can remember when playing the same nine twice.

Quote

The new method of dealing with 9-hole scores is intended to apply when only 9 holes was played on a single day.

 

The "new method" actually imputes a second 9-hole score to go along with each entered 9-hole round. That's why you should not enter a single round as two 9-hole rounds. Within the new system the front nine will be imputed into an 18-hole score (by a rather bizarre formula, IMHO) and then the second nine will be imputed into a second 18-hole score. Which is miles away from reflecting your actual play, on the day!

 

P.S. One other thing. Under the old system it mattered almost not at all how you did it. Entering two "9-hole scores" on the app in the old system, they would have just been combined overnight and treated as one 18-hole score anyway.

Edited April 29 by North Butte

[Hawkeye77]

26 minutes ago, davep043 said:

They didn't specifically say why.  It seems to me that playing the same 9 twice in a row is essentially a single 18-hole round, so they prefer to treat it that way.  The new method of dealing with 9-hole scores is intended to apply when only 9 holes was played on a single day.

Not making excuses for my not getting it, lol, but I think I've been hung up on the hole by hole aspect and filling in the "card" when reporting which is so easy on the app (and doesn't seem at all relevant now) vs. just reporting a "score" that is looked at in light of whatever the rating/slope is - so I think just overlooking the basics, haha.

Edited April 29 by Hawkeye77

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, ChaosTheory said:

What if the right way is the wrong way and the wrong way is the right way?  🙂

 

Then we'd have chaos !!!

 

 

Thank you folks, I'll be here all week.

[ChaosTheory]

@Hawkeye77

Just to clarify, me calling it an “unlisted” course was only meant as being comparable to an unlisted course.  Sorry for that confusion.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

They didn't specifically say why.  It seems to me that playing the same 9 twice in a row is essentially a single 18-hole round, so they prefer to treat it that way.  The new method of dealing with 9-hole scores is intended to apply when only 9 holes was played on a single day.

 

Exactly.

[Augster]

Ah, but what if one plays the same nine twice, but only plays 8 holes on the second 9? 
 

The WHS says when playing less than 18 you post hole by hole. BUT, there won’t be, say, Front/Front as a drop down. 
 

So now you’re stuck. You can either, incorrectly, give yourself par+ for the hole not played and combine the nine’s, keep the slope to post as an 18-hole “round”. OR you can, correctly, post the front 9 and not post the back and let the system combine the 9-hole score with the “average 9”. 
 

 

[North Butte]

8 hours ago, Augster said:

Ah, but what if one plays the same nine twice, but only plays 8 holes on the second 9? 
 

The WHS says when playing less than 18 you post hole by hole. BUT, there won’t be, say, Front/Front as a drop down. 
 

So now you’re stuck. You can either, incorrectly, give yourself par+ for the hole not played and combine the nine’s, keep the slope to post as an 18-hole “round”. OR you can, correctly, post the front 9 and not post the back and let the system combine the 9-hole score with the “average 9”. 
 

 

In situations like that, caused by the confluence of two ill-conceived procedures and a poorly implemented app IMO the best thing is just don't post the score. Life's too short to be trying to choose between two or more incorrect ways of dealing with a situation not of my own making. 

[DaveLeeNC]

8 hours ago, Augster said:

Ah, but what if one plays the same nine twice, but only plays 8 holes on the second 9? 
 

The WHS says when playing less than 18 you post hole by hole. BUT, there won’t be, say, Front/Front as a drop down. 
 

So now you’re stuck. You can either, incorrectly, give yourself par+ for the hole not played and combine the nine’s, keep the slope to post as an 18-hole “round”. OR you can, correctly, post the front 9 and not post the back and let the system combine the 9-hole score with the “average 9”. 
 

 

You would think that the USGA would fix their app and allow you to input whatever actually happened on the course and let the system deal with the rest of it (even if the answer is "sorry, you cannot post this score"). 

 

dave

[North Butte]

15 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

You would think that the USGA would fix their app and allow you to input whatever actually happened on the course and let the system deal with the rest of it (even if the answer is "sorry, you cannot post this score"). 

 

dave

Agreed. If the USGA's app designers can't figure out how to follow all the procedures in the new handicap rules, what hope does the typical golfer have of complying? 

[ChaosTheory]

2 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

You would think that the USGA would fix their app and allow you to input whatever actually happened on the course and let the system deal with the rest of it (even if the answer is "sorry, you cannot post this score"). 

 

dave

 

Yes.  And a good step would be for the system to combine even numbers of nines posted on the same day.  Any odd nine left over would be treated under the new (current) method.   Everything is settled at the end of the day.   So if someone plays 2, 4, or 6 nines, those become 1, 2, or 3 rounds, respectively.  If someone plays 5 nines, that's two 18 hole rounds and one 9 that gets converted to an 18 hole differential.   Obviously most people will only play 2 nines, but there are some people who go around from morning to sunset.  🙂

 

Anyway, that would seem to be an achievable enhancement.  And it wouldn't be too hard for golfers.  Certainly easier than what is happening now. 

 

[ChaosTheory]

If I ran a nine hole course, I would insist on 18 hole ratings and hole by hole data to be included in the posting system.  I wonder if this is already happening at a lot of them.  It would solve this problem at those courses.

[Seamus_McDuff]

5 minutes ago, ChaosTheory said:

If I ran a nine hole course, I would insist on 18 hole ratings and hole by hole data to be included in the posting system.  I wonder if this is already happening at a lot of them.  It would solve this problem at those courses.

Should be a no-brainer considering there are 27 hole courses that have 18 hole ratings for all three 9 hole combinations. 

[DaveLeeNC]

26 minutes ago, ChaosTheory said:

If I ran a nine hole course, I would insist on 18 hole ratings and hole by hole data to be included in the posting system.  I wonder if this is already happening at a lot of them.  It would solve this problem at those courses.

 

The 9 hole course in our area appears in GHIN with an 18 hole posting selection. As best as I can tell it works just like a 'real' 18 hole course from a posting perspective.

 

dave

[nsxguy]

Does anyone actually know what would happen in GHIN if one simply posted 2 9-holes scores on the same day ?

[nsxguy]

9 hours ago, North Butte said:

Agreed. If the USGA's app designers can't figure out how to follow all the procedures in the new handicap rules, what hope does the typical golfer have of complying? 

 

Anybody remember the TV commercial for the computer company whose slogan was "We never stop asking "What if ?"" 2 points for anybody who gets it right w/o googling,,,,,,,

 

Rather than bore everyone with designing, programming, etc....... (you're welcome btw) let me just say

 

 

 

Edited April 30 by nsxguy

[davep043]

3 hours ago, nsxguy said:

Does anyone actually know what would happen in GHIN if one simply posted 2 9-holes scores on the same day ?

Yeah, it posts as 2 18-hole rounds, each one consisting of a real 9-hole score and an "expected differential".  Because HI is updated overnight, the "expected diff" will be identical for both rounds.

[1mcozik]

Just ask ChatGPT and it’ll give you better advice than 99% of the internet.