Played same nine twice, posted a manual 18. Good or no?

[nsxguy]

Wrote to the USGA and they confirmed what @davep043 says above - not that I am surprised.

 

Same 9 twice or different 9 at different locations and the "guidance" is to post 2 separate 9-hole rounds in GHIN.

 

That will end up as 2 individual 18-hole scores on your handicap record.

[Augster]

13 hours ago, nsxguy said:

Wrote to the USGA and they confirmed what @davep043 says above - not that I am surprised.

 

Same 9 twice or different 9 at different locations and the "guidance" is to post 2 separate 9-hole rounds in GHIN.

 

That will end up as 2 individual 18-hole scores on your handicap record.

I was pretty sure that would be the case. Thanks for getting the clarification. 
 

I played with a member that played the combo tees on the front, and the forward tees on the back. It was just too wet out for his distance so he moved up. I told him to post two separate 9-hole scores as I couldn’t find anything in the WHS literature that said otherwise. He went 44, then 38 after moving up. 
 

Thanks!

[North Butte]

Well, in that case they've truly jumped the shark. I've hung in there with them for a long time, trying my darndest to stick to the rules and procedures of the handicap system even when they were silly or dumb. But when I play an 18-hole round, continuously, in three hours and it just happens to be twice around the same nine I will not post that as two rounds. Just not going to do it. Guess they were bound to lose me at some point.

 

Next time I play the same nine twice, I will be forced to officially join the ranks of those who make up their own handicap system and just use GHIN as a repository. The only difference between mine and USGA/WHS/whatever the hell they call it now will be that I stick with the old method, using twice the course rating along with the slope and par for my same-nine-twice rounds. 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

25 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Well, in that case they've truly jumped the shark. I've hung in there with them for a long time, trying my darndest to stick to the rules and procedures of the handicap system even when they were silly or dumb. But when I play an 18-hole round, continuously, in three hours and it just happens to be twice around the same nine I will not post that as two rounds. Just not going to do it. Guess they were bound to lose me at some point.

 

Next time I play the same nine twice, I will be forced to officially join the ranks of those who make up their own handicap system and just use GHIN as a repository. The only difference between mine and USGA/WHS/whatever the hell they call it now will be that I stick with the old method, using twice the course rating along with the slope and par for my same-nine-twice rounds. 

 

Since they seem to have used to term 'guidance' I am not sure that I would characterize what you are doing as outside the system. 

 

I am surprised that posting two nines for the case of playing the same 9 twice (rather than posting a single 18 hole round) seems to be preferred. From what I have seen (one current sample and one from a few years ago) GHIN offers an 18 hole posting option for 9 hole courses. So it doesn't seem like the USGA is trying to prevent this. 

 

I don't know what line of thinking would lead an organization to think that posting separate 9 hole scores would (in the general case) be preferable to posting a single 18 hole score. I suppose that the ROG allow pretty much unlimited practice between "holes 9 and 10" for the case of playing two separate nines (not allowed when playing 18 holes). Maybe that is a factor here. 

 

dave

[North Butte]

43 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Since they seem to have used to term 'guidance' I am not sure that I would characterize what you are doing as outside the system. 

 

I am surprised that posting two nines for the case of playing the same 9 twice (rather than posting a single 18 hole round) seems to be preferred. From what I have seen (one current sample and one from a few years ago) GHIN offers an 18 hole posting option for 9 hole courses. So it doesn't seem like the USGA is trying to prevent this. 

 

I don't know what line of thinking would lead an organization to think that posting separate 9 hole scores would (in the general case) be preferable to posting a single 18 hole score. I suppose that the ROG allow pretty much unlimited practice between "holes 9 and 10" for the case of playing two separate nines (not allowed when playing 18 holes). Maybe that is a factor here. 

 

dave

Good point about "guidance" and "rule" not being exactly the same thing.

 

I just don't agree, from an information theory perspective, with the upweighting that their "guidance" entails. It makes that 18 holes literally twice as influential on the handicap index as it would be if posted as a single 18-hole score. 

 

Seeing as how twice around the same nine is not strictly comparable to a normal 18-hole round played on 18 different holes, it seems to me a reasonable argument could be made for downweighting an occasional such round for being non-representative. But in any case, giving it double weight is just bonkers.

 

You may be right about the slight rules loophole about practice between nine-hole rounds but I suspect it's more to do with the fact their poorly implemented app doesn't allow easy entry of these scores as a single 18 holes. They are likely prioritizing a software workaround over quality of the data. 

Edited May 4 by North Butte

[Hawkeye77]

20 hours ago, nsxguy said:

Wrote to the USGA and they confirmed what @davep043 says above - not that I am surprised.

 

Same 9 twice or different 9 at different locations and the "guidance" is to post 2 separate 9-hole rounds in GHIN.

 

That will end up as 2 individual 18-hole scores on your handicap record.

 

Makes sense and more intuitive with the system having this new way to deal with 9 hole rounds. Maybe the guidance is based on the new nine hole "method" vs. how things were done before? 

 

Perhaps the new method would lead to different answers than the other formula or "work around" - and if so, you'd want input to be consistent across players.

[North Butte]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Makes sense and more intuitive with the system having this new way to deal with 9 hole rounds. Maybe the guidance is based on the new nine hole "method" vs. how things were done before? 

 

Perhaps the new method would lead to different answers than the other formula or "work around" - and if so, you'd want input to be consistent across players.

More likely they simply realize that telling 99.9% of golfers in the world to manually enter the course/slope/par corresponding to the same nine twice is asking them to do something completely over their heads.

 

I play with a mix of guys including small business owners (or in some cases large business owners), physicians, CPA's, lawyers, university professors, you name it. Not  a particularly stupid or uneducated bunch. Yet they treat something as simple as dotting a scorecard to show where their strokes fall as though you're asking them to do brain surgery while designing a rocket. Most of them have no clue what course/slope ratings are beyond "The slope tells you how hard the course is" and they think having to look up their Course Handicap on GHIN rather than just playing off their rounded-off index is some kind of sinister conspiracy to make the game impossibly complicated. 

 

I doubt there are half a dozen of us, among the 25-30 guys I play with regularly or occasionally, who could even find the place on GHIN app to enter the course/slope/par for tees not listed. 

 

P.S. In fairness (ha!) I will point out the median age of my golf buddies is around 70.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Since they seem to have used to term 'guidance' I am not sure that I would characterize what you are doing as outside the system. 

 

I am surprised that posting two nines for the case of playing the same 9 twice (rather than posting a single 18 hole round) seems to be preferred. From what I have seen (one current sample and one from a few years ago) GHIN offers an 18 hole posting option for 9 hole courses. So it doesn't seem like the USGA is trying to prevent this. 

 

I don't know what line of thinking would lead an organization to think that posting separate 9 hole scores would (in the general case) be preferable to posting a single 18 hole score. I suppose that the ROG allow pretty much unlimited practice between "holes 9 and 10" for the case of playing two separate nines (not allowed when playing 18 holes). Maybe that is a factor here. 

 

dave

That’s the disconnect though isn’t it?

 

They now construct an 18 hole round based on the actual nine you played and I assume some “prediction” of how you played the other nine (on an 18 hole course).  I admit I haven’t read up on the new system. 
 

So they want folks using the system they now have made available?
 

Only as good as the algorithms, if I’m using that correctly, but maybe more representative than the other “fix”?

Edited May 4 by Hawkeye77

[Hawkeye77]

18 minutes ago, North Butte said:

More likely they simply realize that telling 99.9% of golfers in the world to manually enter the course/slope/par corresponding to the same nine twice is asking them to do something completely over their heads.

 

I play with a mix of guys including small business owners (or in some cases large business owners), physicians, CPA's, lawyers, university professors, you name it. Not  a particularly stupid or uneducated bunch. Yet they treat something as simple as dotting a scorecard to show where their strokes fall as though you're asking them to do brain surgery while designing a rocket. Most of them have no clue what course/slope ratings are beyond "The slope tells you how hard the course is" and they think having to look up their Course Handicap on GHIN rather than just playing off their rounded-off index is some kind of sinister conspiracy to make the game impossibly complicated. 

 

I doubt there are half a dozen of us, among the 25-30 guys I play with regularly or occasionally, who could even find the place on GHIN app to enter the course/slope/par for tees not listed. 

 

P.S. In fairness (ha!) I will point out the median age of my golf buddies is around 70.

Don’t let them get angry and try and order soup in a deli all at once.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

Well, in that case they've truly jumped the shark. I've hung in there with them for a long time, trying my darndest to stick to the rules and procedures of the handicap system even when they were silly or dumb. But when I play an 18-hole round, continuously, in three hours and it just happens to be twice around the same nine I will not post that as two rounds. Just not going to do it. Guess they were bound to lose me at some point.

 

Next time I play the same nine twice, I will be forced to officially join the ranks of those who make up their own handicap system and just use GHIN as a repository. The only difference between mine and USGA/WHS/whatever the hell they call it now will be that I stick with the old method, using twice the course rating along with the slope and par for my same-nine-twice rounds. 

 

I don't think you read what I had posted concerning the response I received from the VSGA.  Your "act of rebellion" is actually doing things the right way.  

 

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I am surprised that posting two nines for the case of playing the same 9 twice (rather than posting a single 18 hole round) seems to be preferred. From what I have seen (one current sample and one from a few years ago) GHIN offers an 18 hole posting option for 9 hole courses. So it doesn't seem like the USGA is trying to prevent this. 

 

Just to clarify, here's the question I sent to the VSGA:

"A player plays the same 9 twice on the same day. Can (or should) he manually enter that as a single 18-hole score, or must he enter this as two different 9-hole scores, resulting in two 18-hole scores for his handicap record."

And the response:

" In that scenario, the golfer should post the score manually as a single 18-hole score, doubling the 9-hole Course Rating and using the Slope Rating of the nine-holes played."

 

 

[North Butte]

3 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Don’t let them get angry and try and order soup in a deli all at once.

First Old Guy In Line: What kind of soup you got today?

Deli Guy: Chili, Vegetable or Mushrooom.

 

Second Old Guy In Line: What kind of soup did you say you have? 

Deli Guy: Chili, Vegetable or Mushrooom.

 

First Guy: No that's not right, it was Clam Chowder.

Second Guy: You're stupid, he just told me Black Bean.

Deli Guy: ENOUGH. You two, out of my Deli and don't come back!

[Hawkeye77]

29 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I don't think you read what I had posted concerning the response I received from the VSGA.  Your "act of rebellion" is actually doing things the right way.  

 

Just to clarify, here's the question I sent to the VSGA:

"A player plays the same 9 twice on the same day. Can (or should) he manually enter that as a single 18-hole score, or must he enter this as two different 9-hole scores, resulting in two 18-hole scores for his handicap record."

And the response:

" In that scenario, the golfer should post the score manually as a single 18-hole score, doubling the 9-hole Course Rating and using the Slope Rating of the nine-holes played."

 

 

 

So are the VSGA and USGA giving different answers?

 

What is the guess as to why, if they are?

 

They don't have to be consistent, for example, I've seen the odd person at the USGA give different answers to the same question or miss the point of the question altogether, sometimes I'm not sure you get a "deep dive" into the question every time one is asked.  But it doesn't inspire confidence.

Edited May 4 by Hawkeye77

[davep043]

6 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

So are the VSGA and USGA giving different answers?

 

What is the guess as to why, if they are?

 

They don't have to be consistent, for example, I've seen the odd person at the USGA give different answers to the same question or miss the point of the question altogether, sometimes I'm not sure you get a "deep dive" into the question every time one is asked.  But it doesn't inspire confidence.

At the top of this page, @nsxguy said the USGA confirmed the answer I got from the VSGA.  He then wrote some additional stuff that seems to contradict that.  Perhaps he might return and clarify the guidance he received.

[Augster]

The answer NSXguy got from the USGA was to post 2 9-hole scores. 

[davep043]

23 hours ago, nsxguy said:

Wrote to the USGA and they confirmed what @davep043 says above - not that I am surprised.

 

23 minutes ago, Augster said:

The answer NSXguy got from the USGA was to post 2 9-hole scores. 

I'll wait until @nsxguy can make things a little clearer.

[Newby]

There are many 9 hole courses here but they traditionally play 18 hole competitions. Often the tees are the same and the CR/Slope is the same for each 9.

These are never recorded as two separate 9s but always as an 18 hole score.

[nsxguy]

On 4/30/2024 at 4:30 PM, davep043 said:

Yeah, it posts as 2 18-hole rounds, each one consisting of a real 9-hole score and an "expected differential".  Because HI is updated overnight, the "expected diff" will be identical for both rounds.

 

On 5/3/2024 at 12:58 PM, nsxguy said:

Wrote to the USGA and they confirmed what @davep043 says above - not that I am surprised.

 

Same 9 twice or different 9 at different locations and the "guidance" is to post 2 separate 9-hole rounds in GHIN.

 

That will end up as 2 individual 18-hole scores on your handicap record.

 

9 hours ago, davep043 said:

At the top of this page, @nsxguy said the USGA confirmed the answer I got from the VSGA.  He then wrote some additional stuff that seems to contradict that.  Perhaps he might return and clarify the guidance he received.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

 

When I said "above" I was referring to your post immediately before mine - the one about the posting "mechanics" and results, NOT your VGSA post.

 

The USGA confirmed the mechanics (posting 2 separate 9-hole scores) and said that was the "guidance" and acknowledged the result of 2 separate 18-hole scores.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 5 by nsxguy

[DaveLeeNC]

16 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

 

Sorry for any confusion.

 

When I said "above" I was referring to your post immediately before mine - the one about the posting "mechanics" and results, NOT your VGSA post.

 

The USGA confirmed the mechanics (posting 2 separate 9-hole scores) and said that was the "guidance" and acknowledged the result of 2 separate 18-hole scores.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the follow-up. It is interesting that this was provided as 'guidance' rather than 'this is the right way to do this'. Clearly this leaves room for some judgement to be applied. I wonder what parameters the USGA is anticipating might be applied here when the right thing to do is to not follow the guidance. 

 

dave

[North Butte]

2 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Thanks for the follow-up. It is interesting that this was provided as 'guidance' rather than 'this is the right way to do this'. Clearly this leaves room for some judgement to be applied. I wonder what parameters the USGA is anticipating might be applied here when the right thing to do is to not follow the guidance. 

 

dave

My guess is if the golfer happens to be that 1 in 1,000 who is mentally equipped to add up "35.6+35.6=71.2" and type 71.2, 129 and 72 into the proper three fields in the GHIN app, their guidance would be to do it correctly. For the other 999, just do two pseudo-18-hole rounds.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Thanks for the follow-up. It is interesting that this was provided as 'guidance' rather than 'this is the right way to do this'. Clearly this leaves room for some judgement to be applied. I wonder what parameters the USGA is anticipating might be applied here when the right thing to do is to not follow the guidance. 

 

dave

 

Agreed. Not sure if this is a WHS issue or USGA issue under the WHS umbrella ?

 

Either way, should they decide to combine 9s played the same day, which to me sounds more reasonable, it should be a relatively easy programming change.

 

 

[Pfish]

I posted one 9 hole score of 47 and 18 differential was 23.0. A couple of weeks later I posted another 9 hole 47 score and the 18 hole differential was 22.3. There were no PCC adjustments on either day.

[Newby]

10 minutes ago, Pfish said:

I posted one 9 hole score of 47 and 18 differential was 23.0. A couple of weeks later I posted another 9 hole 47 score and the 18 hole differential was 22.3. There were no PCC adjustments on either day.

Was it in the same course and tees?

Had your Handicap Index changed between times?

If not it may well be that the 'average' of all other players with the same Index had changed.

[Pfish]

It was same course and tees.  Maybe my handicap changed a bit.

[davep043]

On 5/4/2024 at 7:58 PM, nsxguy said:

The USGA confirmed the mechanics (posting 2 separate 9-hole scores) and said that was the "guidance" and acknowledged the result of 2 separate 18-hole scores.

I just want to understand clearly, exactly what question did you ask?  In my experience, the USGA will answer a specific question, but generally won't go into any related issues.  If you asked "what happens if two 9-hole scores are posted on the same day?", they might explain the result (2 18-hole scores for handicap) but not go into their preferred approach.  Its also possible that they didn't envision this as a major issue, and so may not have a unified recommendation as to how to handle it.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

I just want to understand clearly, exactly what question did you ask?  In my experience, the USGA will answer a specific question, but generally won't go into any related issues.  If you asked "what happens if two 9-hole scores are posted on the same day?", they might explain the result (2 18-hole scores for handicap) but not go into their preferred approach.  Its also possible that they didn't envision this as a major issue, and so may not have a unified recommendation as to how to handle it.

 

Agree.

 

I was basically looking for confirmation of what you'd posted a bit earlier about posting 2 separate 9s on the same day.

 

I asked "I'm looking for some guidance as to how to post 2 (or more ?) 9-hole rounds played on the same day into GHIN.

 

Whether they are the same 9-holes played twice or 2 different 9-hole courses/games. And how to enter/calculate same if the 2nd 9-hole game is discontinued, say after 4 holes ? After 7 holes ?

 

If I were to enter 2 separate 9-hole scores on the same date would GHIN handle/combine(?) them properly ? As opposed to calculating and posting 2 separate 18-hole scores on that same day ?"

 

But they did say "the recommendation is",,,,,,, hence (IMO) allowing for the possibility of a revision at some point in the not-too-distant future(?).

[Hawkeye77]

19 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Agree.

 

I was basically looking for confirmation of what you'd posted a bit earlier about posting 2 separate 9s on the same day.

 

I asked "I'm looking for some guidance as to how to post 2 (or more ?) 9-hole rounds played on the same day into GHIN.

 

Whether they are the same 9-holes played twice or 2 different 9-hole courses/games. And how to enter/calculate same if the 2nd 9-hole game is discontinued, say after 4 holes ? After 7 holes ?

 

If I were to enter 2 separate 9-hole scores on the same date would GHIN handle/combine(?) them properly ? As opposed to calculating and posting 2 separate 18-hole scores on that same day ?"

 

But they did say "the recommendation is",,,,,,, hence (IMO) allowing for the possibility of a revision at some point in the not-too-distant future(?).

 

I don't think the question quite gets to the heart of the matter.  It doesn't state the same 9 holes played twice are played on an 18 hole course vs. playing both 9s on the course, which was the question at hand (not that other questions shouldn't be explored).  I don't believe it is a distinction without a difference in terms of the answer.

[DaveLeeNC]

I am thinking of this mostly as 'how do I judge my personal scoring when half of my rounds are 9 holes".  I used to keep lots of stats but my HI was my primary 'scoring metric'. And yes, this is not a big deal. 

 

One interesting option occurred to me. I could treat all my rounds as 9 hole rounds and use the old method of combining 9 hole scores. Just an interesting 'thought experiment'. This would be strictly in my personal records where I would continue to post per the handicap rules. 

 

dave

[davep043]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

One interesting option occurred to me. I could treat all my rounds as 9 hole rounds and use the old method of combining 9 hole scores. Just an interesting 'thought experiment'. This would be strictly in my personal records where I would continue to post per the handicap rules. 

 

dave

If you decide to keep an "alternate handicap" in this way, I'd be interested to hear of the results after a month or two.  My first guess is that there won't be a huge difference to your USGA HI, but I can't be at all sure.

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

I don't think the question quite gets to the heart of the matter.  It doesn't state the same 9 holes played twice are played on an 18 hole course vs. playing both 9s on the course, which was the question at hand (not that other questions shouldn't be explored).  I don't believe it is a distinction without a difference in terms of the answer.

 

Well, as I mentioned I wasn't exactly going for the original question but just confirming what Dave had mentioned a bit earlier.

 

Fwiw, the OP, simply doubling the 9-hole rating and posting manually sounds "right" to me.

 

But he didn't say he played "both 9s on the course". Had he done that he'd have simply posted an 18-hole round, no ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 7 by nsxguy

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Well, as I mentioned I wasn't exactly going for the original question but just confirming what Dave had mentioned a bit earlier.

 

Fwiw, the OP, simply doubling the 9-hole rating and posting manually sounds "right" to me.

 

But he didn't say he played "both 9s on the course". Had he done that he'd have simply posted an 18-hole round, no ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Correct, which is the reason for the "vs." and the juxtaposition.

Edited May 7 by Hawkeye77