Is playing for average academic D1 that is underfunded worth it?

[jda]

3 minutes ago, Tugu said:

I know what their mission statement says and what their job specs states and what their SOP/KPIs are. On top of it all, when they ask myself and friends to "support" the programs, I hear the spiel. 

 

So I would state confidently that it's an over reach to state that most know what they are doing. 

 

Fundraising is an interesting one.  Been stupid since I was in college.  My opinion is that it is a lot like the checkers at the stores where they have to ask you if you want the Credit Card, but you don't actually have to sign up - the asking is what is important.  Current kids school does not ask any families of the student athletes for any help, at least what I have seen - this is good since they know that we are paying for college on some level.  I imagine that I will get bombarded once she graduates.  They are a plenty rich school with I think a $4b endowment and half a billion in operating budget, so I hate all of it.

 

I am struggling to think of a non-revenue sport coach* that I know who was fired for performance only.  Seen a lot fired for disgusting, personal and off-field reasons.  I have also known a lot who quit since they can make more money with a regular 9-to-5 job.  To me, if they keep the job that they want, then they know what they are doing.  It is sad that the kids are down the list quite a bit, though.  You see more who have been there a decade and they have not won much.

 

*As I likely said before, revenue sports depends on conference and school.  At some schools, golf might be important enough to qualify.  Softball and baseball is a revenue sport in the SWC and SEC but not many other places.  Volleyball at Nebraska.  ...etc.

[Mike_C]

1 hour ago, kiawah said:

My DIII program has an indoor practice facility with 2 trackmans, 2 hitting bays, lockers, a putting green, etc. with all you can play access at the closest public track to campus. Just got their bid back to nationals (have qualified 2x in last 3 years).

My DIII "program" gave us a sleeve of Titleist DTs before each meet....😁

 

I did win the conference one year and get to play in the national championship tho....

[HoosierHacker89]

Wherever a golfer can go to school and get their education paid for is always going to be the best plan. 

[Golfquant]

19 hours ago, golferdad8 said:

I think most players on the team would like to play...but depending on the team size & the coaches' style, it's not unusual for coaches to designate the line up in the spring (esp going into conf finals or regionals), regardless of how qualifying results are. 

 

You will find out when your kid starts college on the golf team:

1) at some point your kid will complain that the process is "unfair"

2) the kids who play the best on the internal team qualifiers (on their home courses) will often not play well at outside tournaments  

3) it doesn't matter the school/team's reputation (esp if more than 2 years ago), the coaches are don't always know what they're doing

 

I have heard multiple players/parents at top schools basically say the team qualifiers for the big events (including Conference Championships, Regionals and Nationals) are for show.  The coaches know who they want to travel and start, and that's who they take.

[LawGenius305]

14 hours ago, HoosierHacker89 said:

Wherever a golfer can go to school and get their education paid for is always going to be the best plan. 

This is a false narrative for non revenue sports.

[jigsaw1011]

3 minutes ago, LawGenius305 said:

This is a false narrative for non revenue sports.

Can you elaborate on this? Curious to hear why. 

[LawGenius305]

2 minutes ago, jigsaw1011 said:

Can you elaborate on this? Curious to hear why. 

The likelihood of getting a full ride is slim to none. Men's golf is 4.5 scholarships for a team of 12-16 players. Women's Golf is 6.5 scholarships for 12-16 players. Brooks Koepka was given a scholarship for "Books" at FSU. The only money he got. Parents are still paying for the bulk of college in non revenue sports. Once you add up all the money spent on lessons, travel, etc over the years the investment of a tutor to improve grades would be a better investment.

[jigsaw1011]

1 minute ago, LawGenius305 said:

The likelihood of getting a full ride is slim to none. Men's golf is 4.5 scholarships for a team of 12-16 players. Women's Golf is 6.5 scholarships for 12-16 players. Brooks Koepka was given a scholarship for "Books" at FSU. The only money he got. Parents are still paying for the bulk of college in non revenue sports. Once you add up all the money spent on lessons, travel, etc over the years the investment of a tutor to improve grades would be a better investment.

Ok. Thank you— that is what I was thinking. 

[ShortGolfer]

Like other Ivy League schools, Penn undergraduate aid is entirely need-based. The University does not award scholarships based on academic or athletic merit. Penn is committed to meeting your full demonstrated need for eight academic semesters with grant-based aid.

 

Harvard spells it out.

• 55% of our undergraduates receive need-based Harvard scholarships.
• Families with incomes below $85,000 (up from $75,000 starting in the 23-24 school year) are not expected to contribute to the cost of their child's education. Roughly 24% of Harvard families have total incomes less than $85,000.

Edited May 7 by ShortGolfer

[Abh159]

25 minutes ago, LawGenius305 said:

The likelihood of getting a full ride is slim to none. Men's golf is 4.5 scholarships for a team of 12-16 players. Women's Golf is 6.5 scholarships for 12-16 players. Brooks Koepka was given a scholarship for "Books" at FSU. The only money he got. Parents are still paying for the bulk of college in non revenue sports. Once you add up all the money spent on lessons, travel, etc over the years the investment of a tutor to improve grades would be a better investment.

 

Very well laid out. I don't think most people realize how little scholarships most of the non-rev generating sports are allotted, especially on the men's side.

 

I played DI golf (and have a lot of friends who did as well) and I don't know of a single person who received a full athletic scholarship. If you want a "full ride" I'd plan on getting at least 50% of that from non-athletic scholarships (academic and etc.).

[jda]

Money is very complex and sometimes less than half of it comes from athletic scholarships anymore.

 

If you can really play and go to a larger/richer school, the Full Cost and NIL can pay for the rest - think Power 5 funding 100% for the best kids on the team and you have to be a DUDE or GAL.  These situations are not very common and NOBODY should count on them.  I do not know if the last kid at at SEC program gets 100% to play golf, for example, but the top ones do.  Know for a fact that SEC schools do get some NIL opportunities for non-revenue kids and even the walk-ons.  Some schools can cut you down to in-state rate if you are part of the athletic department, which is a big deal.  ...so in-state and 25% is still a considerable savings.  These waivers of out of state can sometimes count as partial scholarships and sometimes not (non counter) depending on grades - another reason why grades are so important for non-revenue kids.

 

Most JUCO and CC can pay 100%, so this is 2 years free in many cases if money is a problem.

 

Even Ivies and Div III have some extra money to kick around but it is not always fair.  Sometimes the other kids who are not getting as much can get resentful of the ones who get more money.  I cannot tell you how many Div IIIs offered full everything plus some monthly cash to my kid to play softball.

 

The best that you can likely hope for in Golf is to get admitted to a school that you might not otherwise.  This is not nothing.

 

The last time that I coached youth sports the first thing that we said at the parents meeting (even before telling them to keep their mouths shut at games) was that youth sports is not an investment and you will not get free college.

[golferdad8]

3 hours ago, jda said:

 

The best that you can likely hope for in Golf is to get admitted to a school that you might not otherwise.  This is not nothing.

 

The last time that I coached youth sports the first thing that we said at the parents meeting (even before telling them to keep their mouths shut at games) was that youth sports is not an investment and you will not get free college.

100% truth & lots of good info here. Beyond getting into a selective college w sports, I’ve seen “A students” choose a less academic school to get Merit scholarship to cover almost full ride - but as others have mentioned it’s not athletic scholarship from the 4.5 ncaa max. As for NIL in golf, it is there but it’s like Hollywood - a small # gets most of the $ & most can’t even get healthcare covered. 
 

[Golfquant]

3 hours ago, jda said:

youth sports is not an investment

generally agree, although looked in a different lens:

 

kids have to do some type of activity besides school/academics (to be well-rounded, develop character, socialization, etc)

 

athletics is one of the only "extra curriculars" kids can get $ for in college - no one is getting significant $ from colleges for playing the piano, becoming a dancer, being a chess grand master

 

so in that sense, sports are arguably the best "investment" (assuming your kid has talent) a parent can make in their kids compared to all the other "stuff" they could be doing growing up

[Abh159]

33 minutes ago, Golfquant said:

generally agree, although looked in a different lens:

 

kids have to do some type of activity besides school/academics (to be well-rounded, develop character, socialization, etc)

 

athletics is one of the only "extra curriculars" kids can get $ for in college - no one is getting significant $ from colleges for playing the piano, becoming a dancer, being a chess grand master

 

so in that sense, sports are arguably the best "investment" (assuming your kid has talent) a parent can make in their kids compared to all the other "stuff" they could be doing growing up

 

Not completely true...

 

Maybe not from the college/university itself, but there are thousands if not tens of thousands of organizations that offer scholarship money. You'd be surprised at how many scholarships are out there and available if you care enough to go looking for them.

 

For example... My best fried in HS (and still best friend to this day) was awarded a sizable scholarship from an organization that provides scholarships to kids who had a parent pass away from cancer. All he had to do was write an essay about his experience, and send it in to them. Obviously he would have preferred not to fall into that criteria, but it did end up covering around 75% of his tuition. 

Edited May 7 by Abh159

[Golfquant]

7 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

Not completely true...

 

Maybe not from the college/university itself, but there are thousands if not tens of thousands of organizations that offer scholarship money. You'd be surprised at how many scholarships are out there and available if you care enough to go looking for them.

 

For example... My best fried in HS (and still best friend to this day) was awarded a sizable scholarship from an organization that provides scholarships to kids who had a parent pass away from cancer. All he had to do was write an essay about his experience, and send it in to them. Obviously he would have preferred not to fall into that criteria, but it did end up covering around 75% of his tuition. 

are students who receive athletic $ from schools not able to apply for those types of private scholarships?

 

I don't know of any competitive ECs that high school kids like to put on their college apps these days that pay anywhere near what athletic scholarships provide (with huge upside like NIL, pro career if you are tippy tippy top)

[jda]

Most Athletic Departments encourage kids to find any private money that they can.  NIL is private money.

[Abh159]

2 minutes ago, Golfquant said:

are students who receive athletic $ from schools not able to apply for those types of private scholarships?

 

I don't know of any competitive ECs that high school kids like to put on their college apps these days that pay anywhere near what athletic scholarships provide (with huge upside like NIL, pro career if you are tippy tippy top)

 

I never said potential student athletes couldn't also apply for other scholarships. They certainly can and should apply for those assuming they qualify. You specifically stated "no one is getting significant $ from colleges for playing the piano, becoming a dancer, being a chess grand master", and I was countering that statement isn't totally accurate.

 

Here is just one sample list of scholarships available to dancers or people interested in studying dance - https://www.scholarships.com/financial-aid/college-scholarships/scholarship-directory/academic-major/dance

 

 

[Golfquant]

1 minute ago, jda said:

Most Athletic Departments encourage kids to find any private money that they can.  NIL is private money.

makes total sense

 

there is no NIL $ for being a top 0.1% poet or being the best high school debater in the US

 

parents and students have to be realistic and know where they stand vs the competition and what the odds are of "making it", whether that means college scholarship or pro career, but I can't think of a better activity than sports for a parent to shovel $ towards compared to the rest

[Golfquant]

5 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

I never said potential student athletes couldn't also apply for other scholarships. They certainly can and should apply for those assuming they qualify. You specifically stated "no one is getting significant $ from colleges for playing the piano, becoming a dancer, being a chess grand master", and I was countering that statement isn't totally accurate.

 

Here is just one sample list of scholarships available to dancers or people interested in studying dance - https://www.scholarships.com/financial-aid/college-scholarships/scholarship-directory/academic-major/dance

 

 

ok - well I think you probably realized I was comparing the "investment return" from a parent spending $ on sports vs other "activities"

 

how many dance scholarships are there in the US (you don't need to answer, it's pretty obvious it's de minimis)

[jda]

18 minutes ago, Golfquant said:

there is no NIL $ for being a top 0.1% poet or being the best high school debater in the US

 

Ironically, I happen to know a kid who got a full ride and a few hundo a month from the Ronald Regan library/foundation as long has he kept debating through college - no other strings.  These things do exist for nearly all extra circular activities.  There is huge money for robotics kids if they want to attend my alma mater.

 

BTW - nearly no parents are objective about this in sports despite all of the signs.  Some come around late, but the smart ones from the beginning are much more well off in the long run.  Most would rather think that a coach screwed them than accept a hard truth that small, slow kids just are not heavily recruited by the upper levels.  In golf, it would be that the weather, conditions or course was not right for the kid even though scores shot 10 strokes better on the same day.

 

Edit: know a kid who got a full ride to study and play jazz at DU.  Do not know if it was private or from the school.

Edited May 7 by jda

[Golfquant]

4 minutes ago, jda said:

BTW - nearly no parents are objective about this in sports despite all of the signs.  Some come around late, but the smart ones from the beginning are much more well off in the long run.  Most would rather think that a coach screwed them than accept a hard truth that small, slow kids just are not heavily recruited by the upper levels.  In golf, it would be that the weather, conditions or course was not right for the kid even though scores shot 10 strokes better on the same day.

would agree that parents are biased - which is why for most individual sports (including golf) it should be easy to see where your kid stacks up vs the competition and more effectively be able to make rational decisions

 

[jholz]

If you are good enough to be even asking this question, the answer is: "who in god's name cares?"

[ShortGolfer]

There  were a couple of full ride scholarships funded by a nurse who contracted AIDS during that particular epidemic.

His sister inherited a pair of candlesticks.  He loved ham radio so he made arrangements for though a ham radio organization to give away the money.

 

Totally full ride.   At the beginning, there was enough money for someone to go all the way through medical school!

 

There are a lots of scholarships for young ham radio operators.

There is a non profit ham radio organization sitting on tens of millions of dollars.

Some hams got a big block of IP addresses to dole out to hams.  They decided to sell some of them!

Edited May 7 by ShortGolfer

[AC168]

Unless you are ridiculously good, you probably won’t get a full ride at a highly desired school for golf but you might get one if you are almost ridiculously good and go to a slightly less desired school.  Many of the extremely good college players are on partial or back ended scholarship agreements.

[jayslaysongolf]

9 hours ago, AC168 said:

Unless you are ridiculously good, you probably won’t get a full ride at a highly desired school for golf but you might get one if you are almost ridiculously good and go to a slightly less desired school.  Many of the extremely good college players are on partial or back ended scholarship agreements.

 

Actually is worse then that you have to ridiculously good and famous or your lucky to get 30%.
 

there is a reason some players skip collge and just go pro.

[LawGenius305]

18 hours ago, Golfquant said:

generally agree, although looked in a different lens:

 

kids have to do some type of activity besides school/academics (to be well-rounded, develop character, socialization, etc)

 

athletics is one of the only "extra curriculars" kids can get $ for in college - no one is getting significant $ from colleges for playing the piano, becoming a dancer, being a chess grand master

 

so in that sense, sports are arguably the best "investment" (assuming your kid has talent) a parent can make in their kids compared to all the other "stuff" they could be doing growing up

I don't even know where to begin.

 

Diving deep into athletics is not the way to a college scholarship. Less expensive to hire a tutor to raise grades and improve SAT scores.

 

I am calling BS on activities to be well rounded, develop character, and socialization. No parent has to pay 10-20k a year to play sports to get well rounded.

 

Good friend of mine's daughter went to school for free at the U because she was a great violinist. Calling BS on that statement as well. If your kid is playing a sport to get a scholarship, they are in the sport for the wrong reason.

 

The only thing you are doing is defending the amount of money you spent on golf. It isn't a knock, because everyone on this thread is probably in the same boat including myself.

[Golfquant]

59 minutes ago, LawGenius305 said:

I don't even know where to begin.

 

Diving deep into athletics is not the way to a college scholarship. Less expensive to hire a tutor to raise grades and improve SAT scores.

 

I am calling BS on activities to be well rounded, develop character, and socialization. No parent has to pay 10-20k a year to play sports to get well rounded.

 

Good friend of mine's daughter went to school for free at the U because she was a great violinist. Calling BS on that statement as well. If your kid is playing a sport to get a scholarship, they are in the sport for the wrong reason.

 

The only thing you are doing is defending the amount of money you spent on golf. It isn't a knock, because everyone on this thread is probably in the same boat including myself.

well this only applies for D1 & D2 athletes (since D3 doesn't give athletic scholarships)

Edited May 8 by Golfquant

[jda]

Most DIII have some money.  Some have a LOT of money.  Since there are no scholarships, the school can discount your tuition to "employee, in state, secret handshake level" if they want since they don't have to do equivalents.  You have to fill out financial aid and sign it at any level, I think.  We had to do it with schools with interest even if ended up not going there - this is the only way that they can let you know what they can offer with aid, scholarships, grants, private money, etc.

 

The DIII kid that I know was JC first and she got like 80% as a junior and 100% as a senior.  No athletic scholarships does not mean no money.

 

If you want more money, then grades are going to be as important as your playing ability in most cases.  Most kids get more money as they progress too... just gotta keep up those grades and be a good teammate.

[LawGenius305]

54 minutes ago, Golfquant said:

well this only applies for D1 & D2 athletes (since D3 doesn't give athletic scholarships)

What does D1 or D2 athletes have to do with it?  Absolutely nothing.  

 

 

[Golfquant]

11 minutes ago, LawGenius305 said:

What does D1 or D2 athletes have to do with it?  Absolutely nothing.  

 

 

I teed that one up for you