Is playing for average academic D1 that is underfunded worth it?

[LawGenius305]

52 minutes ago, golferdad8 said:

If one can't play play freshman year at a power 5 school (esp if there are over than 9 players), the gut feel is that most should not expect to play much for rest of their college career.

Some top 20 schools will want the spot, while other coaches might just let the player keep practicing (and occasionally play as an individual.

 

As an example, check out Ivies, or even Duke & Stanford where the bottom 3 players often shoot high 70s+ and don't travel w/ the team. When the academic standards are stringent, the coaches can't really bring portal guys in. 

Correct.

 

The formula seems to be to take 2-3 freshman a year. If they can get 1 to play the first year great, if not they will redshirt. If 1 redshirt works out great and 2 even better. The coach knows they will have just as good as a recruiting class to choose from the following year. They will then pick up 1 in the portal every year the coach knows can play to fill those holes and more if he needs it. If not playing by year 2 after the redshirt, transfer.

[jda]

I would always ask the coach a few questions about the program.  If you expect a coach to know how your kid is going to fit in, then you might annoy them.  We always asked about the program culture and the identity of how they play.  Culture and identity should never be off limits to any good coach - most coaches brightened up to speak about this.  A few had no idea what we were asking and the kid had no interest in these coaches.

 

We also asked if the coaches were open to letting a kid compete as a pitcher and hitter.  Not relevant in golf, but important to us.  The ones that said no were happy to not waste any more time.  There are probably some golf specific things along these same lines that I might not be thinking about - I guess that you could ask if the coach like play-it-safe or risk-reward types of players, or just lets the kids be who they are?  Something like that?

 

Redshirts have been tough with Covid years.  Have not seen many handed out with extra kids around already.  Redshirts might be coming back as Covid kids are phasing out.

 

As an aside, don't ever turn down a chat with a coach or program.  First, you need the practice.  Second, these people move around a lot.  One of the gals that my youngest really loved was at a local DII that the kid had no interest in - went to a Power 5 and the reconnected.  Kid did not end up going there, but you never know when you might need these contacts later on.

[tssgj65]

5 hours ago, LawGenius305 said:

Clippd/Scoreboard is an unmitigated disaster. My understanding is that there rankings will be going away sooner rather than later.

No telling how bad it can get screwed up.  If the past year of chaos is any indicator..... no telling what can happen....

[jda]

5 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

You make some solid points, but how much does a wide open transfer portal change things? 

 

I only know the schools that my kids went to, and a few others were kids that I coached went.  For the non-revenue sports in programs that are not powerhouses, they only use the portal to fill a hole with injury or having a kid leave.  This is totally different for revenue sports or powerhouse schools who can/do recruit over kids.  They also let any kid stay even if they cannot play - access to the program, education and their scholarship that they had so long as they accept their role and are a good teammate.  If a kid wants to leave for playing time elsewhere, they help them find something if they are a good teammate.

[YevKasim]

Just as if anyone's child was gifted enough to make serious money at their sport you have to consider life after sport. There has to be an evaluation made as what school provides the best combination of golf program and academics that would match the student's desire to make a living at golf or make at a living at life.

[leezer99]

1 hour ago, YevKasim said:

Just as if anyone's child was gifted enough to make serious money at their sport you have to consider life after sport. There has to be an evaluation made as what school provides the best combination of golf program and academics that would match the student's desire to make a living at golf or make at a living at life.

Wife went to a prominent school in California and the brotherhood of alumni is a real thing. You wouldn’t believe the amount of doors it opened for her after graduation. 

[ChipNRun]

One of the most important questions to ask: What is the golfer's long-term goals in the sport.

 

If golfer wants to play on PGA Tour, a higher-ranked D1 school would be the way to go.

 

And, one of the challenges of college golf is time management. A golfer will have to devote a lot more time to the sport than, say, a wrestler. (In the previous century, I  was a weird kid who both played golf and wrestled for my junior college.) Poor time management crashes as many D1 golfers as does a penchant for wild tee shots.

 

One interesting tidbit. Those aiming for a golf career as a non-tour pro often opt for a PGA Management program tied into a college's business school. Back in 2019 I got to interview Will Man, then director of the Coastal Carolina program. He said that only a couple of PGA Mngt students a year play on the golf team. The rest, he said, are focused on non-playing careers such as PGA golf instructor and course manager.

[golferdad8]

9 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

One of the most important questions to ask: What is the golfer's long-term goals in the sport.

 

If golfer wants to play on PGA Tour, a higher-ranked D1 school would be the way to go.

 

Imho, if golfer is good and 100% wants to play on PGA tour - play on a competitive golf team with good facilities, regardless of what division.

Playing time, traveling, and competing are way more important than being a "on a" top 20 golf team & sitting on the bench, esp if there are 10+ players on the team. 

Many top D1 schools have players who no where, where a top D2 or D3 (or Ivy) player can still have a shot at going pro. 

Just look at the current 150 PGA roster & see how many are from top D1 programs. 

[jayslaysongolf]

4 hours ago, golferdad8 said:

Imho, if golfer is good and 100% wants to play on PGA tour - play on a competitive golf team with good facilities, regardless of what division.

Playing time, traveling, and competing are way more important than being a "on a" top 20 golf team & sitting on the bench, esp if there are 10+ players on the team. 

Many top D1 schools have players who no where, where a top D2 or D3 (or Ivy) player can still have a shot at going pro. 

Just look at the current 150 PGA roster & see how many are from top D1 programs. 

You are correct playing is more important than ranking.

 

Someone who wants to be on tour is good enough will not stay at a school very long.  Playing on a team doesn’t help them at all. They need to be out there playing pro tournaments the same time college tournaments are going on.

Edited May 6 by jayslaysongolf

[Tugu]

1 hour ago, jayslaysongolf said:

You are correct playing is more important than ranking.

Heresy!!! Blasphemy!!!😇

 

Ranking gives us our daily bread.🙏

 

 

[LawGenius305]

17 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

One of the most important questions to ask: What is the golfer's long-term goals in the sport.

 

If golfer wants to play on PGA Tour, a higher-ranked D1 school would be the way to go.

 

And, one of the challenges of college golf is time management. A golfer will have to devote a lot more time to the sport than, say, a wrestler. (In the previous century, I  was a weird kid who both played golf and wrestled for my junior college.) Poor time management crashes as many D1 golfers as does a penchant for wild tee shots.

 

One interesting tidbit. Those aiming for a golf career as a non-tour pro often opt for a PGA Management program tied into a college's business school. Back in 2019 I got to interview Will Man, then director of the Coastal Carolina program. He said that only a couple of PGA Mngt students a year play on the golf team. The rest, he said, are focused on non-playing careers such as PGA golf instructor and course manager.

30 years ago this might be true. It is not anymore. There are more kids playing professionally from the D2 ranks than D1. It is better to go to a high ranked D2 or D3 than sit on the bench of a D1 or play on a lower D1.

8 hours ago, golferdad8 said:

Imho, if golfer is good and 100% wants to play on PGA tour - play on a competitive golf team with good facilities, regardless of what division.

Playing time, traveling, and competing are way more important than being a "on a" top 20 golf team & sitting on the bench, esp if there are 10+ players on the team. 

Many top D1 schools have players who no where, where a top D2 or D3 (or Ivy) player can still have a shot at going pro. 

Just look at the current 150 PGA roster & see how many are from top D1 programs. 

[Golfquant]

never mind

Edited May 6 by Golfquant

[jda]

I would strongly separate wanting to be a pro from wanting to play sports in college, even if the kid goes to college for a while.  Those are two paths that rarely have much in common with individual sports.  I don't have anybody in my house with this path, but overseas play might be the way to go - I am older, but what the Big 8 did for people who wanted to go pro was to show them how far they were from the goal (90% of the kids though that they were going to win at Augusta within a few years)... and then most focused on their degree.

[NYBogeyGolfer]

On 5/3/2024 at 1:30 PM, jda said:

Most non revenue coaches are true to their word and do not recruit over kids who are true to their word.  However, your spot on the team and scholarship does not guarantee playing time.  This is not even close to the same as for revenue sports.  I am not sure that the transfer portal has fully shaken out yet in any sport even though any kid can enter it.  Like I said above, risk avoidance is paramount with most golf coaches so the reasons and circumstances that make kids want to transfer really matter.  My gut tells me that for the masses, this is not free agency unless they want to move down a level or are complete studs.

 

There are worst things than getting a degree in a good town and barely playing.  Golfers are student athletes and not athlete students.  I doubt that any coach at any college is going to guarantee playing time to any recruit or transfer.  Regardless of the  circumstance, you are going to have to earn it so plan on not playing much at first and work hard... better to be driven and play earlier than expected rather than be bitter and mad.

 

Out of curiosity, what do the student-athletes who are not in the lineup do to stay sharp in competition? Are those players allowed to enter the fields of non-NCAA amateur tournaments if they know they will not be in the lineup? Or are they precluded from doing that in most programs?

[leezer99]

14 minutes ago, NYBogeyGolfer said:

 

Out of curiosity, what do the student-athletes who are not in the lineup do to stay sharp in competition? Are those players allowed to enter the fields of non-NCAA amateur tournaments if they know they will not be in the lineup? Or are they precluded from doing that in most programs?

They do their homework so they have a desk job after college. 

[jda]

5 minutes ago, NYBogeyGolfer said:

 

Out of curiosity, what do the student-athletes who are not in the lineup do to stay sharp in competition? Are those players allowed to enter the fields of non-NCAA amateur tournaments if they know they will not be in the lineup? Or are they precluded from doing that in most programs?

 

It depends.  We had kids who were not on the Golf team that went to some events to play individually and also some events used to allow more players (seem to remember early season events?).  If you are getting free college to play golf, or any other sport, you are expected to be mentally tough enough to keep yourself in playing shape mentally and physically.  If you play the same course that the competitors are playing and shoot 80, the coach is not going to want to hear that it was because you were not on the board... conversely, if you shoot 65 all of the time, they will notice you.  Coaches have heard all of the excuses and know that mentally tough kids don't need the scoreboards and crowds to kick a** - nobody ever made the major leagues with the excuse that getting hammered by AA and AAA players does not count because the kid performs better against Joan Soto, Bobby Whitt, Jr, Ronald Acuna or Mookie Betts.

 

For other sports, there are practices and scrimmages and stuff.  It is easy to see who stands out against the starters both positively and negatively when scrimmaging.

 

College kids can enter to qualify for the US Open and other types of events.  There are usually lists that school and their coaches allow under certain circumstances - some allow more than others.  Schools/coaches are not going to like you playing in Dad's member/guest in season.  I seem to remember weekday qualifiers being OK for larger events for SOME kids - helped the kids (most got whipped) and missing a few practices is not all that bad.  If a kid has this in mind, it is a good idea to clear this in advance with a coach... but if a kid is shooting about par on the Uni course, qualifying for the US Open against ex-pros, pros, high ams, etc. might be seen as a fools errand to many coaches.

[Mike_C]

On 5/1/2024 at 5:37 PM, tatertot said:

My son goes to a DIII school that has their own driving range and practice facilities on campus ... But I think that's pretty rare.

 

Most schools, at any level, are known for some academic field. If it fits what your child is looking at, then the school is a good fit.

I played DIII 3 years back in the early 80s, our "practice facility" was our own bag of balls hitting out into the intermural soccer fields.  Our home course was a goat track out in the middle of nowhere, where even the goats were embarrassed to go.... 

 

I had a couple of scholarship offers from MAC schools in Michigan, but I wanted to go south and try to play all winter. I actually went to Auburn my freshman year and tried to walk on, they played on a nice course but didn't have any special practice facilities, and the girls played on the local muni.....If I could do it over, I probably would have taken one of the scholarships I was offered, I ended up going to grad school anyway after undergrad... I really would put academics first in all of these decisions, the chance of making it on tour is not very high for the average college kid....

 

How times have changed......

[golferdad8]

25 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

They do their homework so they have a desk job after college. 

Or become a rep for golf equipment/apparel/supplies manufacturer...at least out there & not behind a desk.

[kcap]

1 hour ago, NYBogeyGolfer said:

 

Out of curiosity, what do the student-athletes who are not in the lineup do to stay sharp in competition? Are those players allowed to enter the fields of non-NCAA amateur tournaments if they know they will not be in the lineup? Or are they precluded from doing that in most programs?

 

If they are not in the line-up they are working their tail off to get into the line up.  I did not have a true understanding of the qualification process at top ranked schools till we went through it.  It is tough and after you speak with kids on the team - a lot of them talk about how the pressure and competition at qualification is harder than the tournament.   Interestingly, every coach had a slightly nuanced view of their qualification process.    Most top ranked programs had qualification for every tournaments and it was over a multiple rounds of golf. The pressure is intense cause everyone wants to travel.   Net net - i think it is a fallacy that kids who are not in the line up are not competing.

[golferdad8]

25 minutes ago, kcap said:

 

If they are not in the line-up they are working their tail off to get into the line up.  I did not have a true understanding of the qualification process at top ranked schools till we went through it.  It is tough and after you speak with kids on the team - a lot of them talk about how the pressure and competition at qualification is harder than the tournament.   Interestingly, every coach had a slightly nuanced view of their qualification process.    Most top ranked programs had qualification for every tournaments and it was over a multiple rounds of golf. The pressure is intense cause everyone wants to travel.   Net net - i think it is a fallacy that kids who are not in the line up are not competing.

I think most players on the team would like to play...but depending on the team size & the coaches' style, it's not unusual for coaches to designate the line up in the spring (esp going into conf finals or regionals), regardless of how qualifying results are. 

 

You will find out when your kid starts college on the golf team:

1) at some point your kid will complain that the process is "unfair"

2) the kids who play the best on the internal team qualifiers (on their home courses) will often not play well at outside tournaments  

3) it doesn't matter the school/team's reputation (esp if more than 2 years ago), the coaches are don't always know what they're doing

 

[kcap]

36 minutes ago, golferdad8 said:

I think most players on the team would like to play...but depending on the team size & the coaches' style, it's not unusual for coaches to designate the line up in the spring (esp going into conf finals or regionals), regardless of how qualifying results are. 

 

You will find out when your kid starts college on the golf team:

1) at some point your kid will complain that the process is "unfair"

2) the kids who play the best on the internal team qualifiers (on their home courses) will often not play well at outside tournaments  

3) it doesn't matter the school/team's reputation (esp if more than 2 years ago), the coaches are don't always know what they're doing

 

I am not entirely sure what your response was towards. 

 

regarding setting up the team in spring irrespective of qualification. Like I said, it is nuanced across coaches, ask the question, do your due diligence before committing to a school.  Everyone has a different point of view, I can tell you even in my household my wife was not in a favor of a tough qualification while my son and I were in favor. 

 

 

 

[LawGenius305]

40 minutes ago, golferdad8 said:

I think most players on the team would like to play...but depending on the team size & the coaches' style, it's not unusual for coaches to designate the line up in the spring (esp going into conf finals or regionals), regardless of how qualifying results are. 

 

You will find out when your kid starts college on the golf team:

1) at some point your kid will complain that the process is "unfair"

2) the kids who play the best on the internal team qualifiers (on their home courses) will often not play well at outside tournaments  

3) it doesn't matter the school/team's reputation (esp if more than 2 years ago), the coaches are don't always know what they're doing

 

Experienced coaches will qualify for 3 or 4 and coaches selection the last 1 or 2 spots.

 

There is a learning curve to traveling. Some kids get it and others don't.

[Tugu]

43 minutes ago, golferdad8 said:

You will find out when your kid starts college on the golf team:

1) at some point your kid will complain that the process is "unfair"

2) the kids who play the best on the internal team qualifiers (on their home courses) will often not play well at outside tournaments  

3) it doesn't matter the school/team's reputation (esp if more than 2 years ago), the coaches are don't always know what they're doing

 

1) ✔️

2)✔️

3)✔️

[jda]

I can assure you that almost all coaches know what they are doing, but it does not always have to do with the game and what parents and outsiders have as criterion for success.  As I have said before, winning golf events is not a priority at most schools, so having a good culture, grades and staying out of trouble is paramount.  Winning is likely well down the list for most programs.  This is another reason why being a student should be above playing or winning for MOST kids (the non-pro types).

 

If your coach is good at running a program and actual golf, then expect them to leave for a better program if they get the chance.  Exceptions are if they love the city and the school... or their family is entrenched in the local community.

[Tugu]

7 minutes ago, jda said:

I can assure you that almost all coaches know what they are doing, but it does not always have to do with the game and what parents and outsiders have as criterion for success. 

I cant begin to speak for all sports, but having one in D1 golf already and soon a second, there's no way that almost all of them know what they are doing.

 

@golferdad8 is so close to all this, I'm not sure people realise the extent. He speaks with authority derived from experience beyond his own kid.

 

 

Edited May 6 by Tugu

[jda]

15 minutes ago, Tugu said:

I cant begin to speak for all sports, but having one in D1 golf already and soon a second, there's no way that almost all of them know what they are doing.

 

@golferdad8 is so close to all this, I'm not sure people realise the extent. He speaks with authority derived from experience beyond his own kid.

 

 

 

Your definition of knowing what they are doing, or theirs?  Most know what they are doing - try and keep their jobs by doing exactly what the AD has told them to do.

[MerryTex]

A few things I think. 

 

1. The student-athlete needs to know what they want. I've seen so many athletes leave for college only to return after a year of being away. My in-laws own a top volleyball club and we get kids that come through the ranks and play ball at a college. It's great but some of them never really wanted it in the first place. The biggest thing has to be that the decision is because they wanted this. Of course, they have to continue to work at it but still. 

 

2. The parent needs to allow their son or daughter to have some choice and power in their decision. Do we want to control certain things? Yes. We can control it all. We have the knowledge that we raised them well enough to be able to make tough decisions. We can help guide them but it's their choice once they know all the cards in the deck. 

 

3. A program that is established and has a proven track record to allow a player to grow is to be considered. So many people are caught up in the D1 train that they lose sight of great programs that are D2 or 3. These programs and schools are just as good as some D1 schools. 

 

4. Playing day in and day out on the roster is key.

 

5. They are responsible for their outcome. Golf is one of many sports that doesn't lie. If you're good, you're good. Your play will determine that but how you handle yourself through those moments can allow coaches to believe in you and keep you in the rotation. 

 

I know I'd love for my girls to play college sports but I also know that it may not be in the cards. I'll do everything to ensure they have what they need but if they don't want it, we won't continue to pursue it. I've got a great friend who is an interim head coach at his school (small D1) and has told me many of the program's ins and outs. Some coaches do know what they're doing and some just do it better. Like most things, we need to look at the situation from all angles but don't overthink it. It comes down to the school and program being what the athlete wants. If it can provide a great experience for them, it should be considered. 

 

[Tugu]

3 minutes ago, jda said:

 

Your definition of knowing what they are doing, or theirs?  Most know what they are doing - try and keep their jobs by doing exactly what the AD has told them to do.

I know what their mission statement says and what their job specs states and what their SOP/KPIs are. On top of it all, when they ask myself and friends to "support" the programs, I hear the spiel. 

 

So I would state confidently that it's an over reach to state that most know what they are doing. 

[kiawah]

My DIII program has an indoor practice facility with 2 trackmans, 2 hitting bays, lockers, a putting green, etc. with all you can play access at the closest public track to campus. Just got their bid back to nationals (have qualified 2x in last 3 years). I would take that any day over playing on a D1 team that has no shot at making it past their conference championship. At the end of the day, I wouldn't want to be a slave to my D1 team that doesn't even have a good chance to win anything. Especially if my potential to improve was capped by a lack of funding. From the midwest, we traveled to Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, New York, PA, Michigan, Indiana, and Kentucky. Got to play tracks like Oak Hill, Laurel Valley, Allegheny CC, French Lick, Forest Creek, Pinehurst, Kiawah Island Club, Starmount CC, and many others. Plenty of D1 teams did not get to experience nearly as much great golf as I did in my short 4 years, and probably didn't have as good of an academic reputation. There are tons of DIII kids who can really play and as a frequent golfstat scoreboard checker, I can attest to the fact that the best DIII teams could beat the majority of the bottom 200 D1 programs week in week out. It really just depends on what you want. Less "commitments" to the team paired with great academics and high level competition was a great fit for me.   

[TroyB123]

Lots of good information and perspectives in this thread.   Thanks everyone!