Ventus + Black & Blue vs Denali Black & Blue Launch Monitor Session

[Ned Ryerson]

Good Evening. Long time reader, fairly frequent seller, rare poster. It’s July and I have finally decided on a driver head:

Qi10 Core 8*
I tried them all and the Qi10 core and AI Smoke TD Max are the clear winners for me. Now I need to pick a shaft. So I started by trying X vs S in a few as I am borderline. I went stiff tipped 1/2” in all.

this was my final test: warm up and hit 10 drives with each. Take the best 7 and compare. Attached is what it looks like. 
Some other background data:

I am 46, 6’ 205lbs

Currently a 6.1 index

Have been as low as a 3.8 this year and as high as 7.0. I play 2x per week. I am a former PGA Club Pro, Former clubfitter & clubmaker. I know enough to screw myself up. Just a hobby now. I have a Uneekor XO2. Borrowed a Trackman as well for this and the numbers were pretty much the same. I always start with my old standby of a Diamana D+ 60 for baseline. I hit that shaft fine, just tend to be less consistent (spray it left and right). My angle of attack is +8>10*=16>20* launch. I try to hit a shape with every drive depending on what feels right. 
Couple notes on my perception:

D+ was the same as always. Some nuclear, some left and some Heely Dans right.

Ventus Blue + felt good and went well when I started to groove it. Hit both shapes, nothing wild. More controlled than Original. Only one of these I have hit before. I have had good and bad streaks with it. My bad streaks were really bad. Couldn’t possibly be me though.

Ventus Black + felt stout, not harsh like I thought the original could. Couldn’t feel a kick. Had trouble timing the load. Hit some low left that felt dead. Straightest though

Denali Blue sprayed it everywhere. Hit my longest drives with this one and my shortest. The 3 I didn’t count were the worst. Not sure I could trust it.

Denali Black could not time it. Was accurate but I am missing a lot. Hit a couple silly knuckleballs that I didn’t hit with others (695 RPM, 1013 RPM).

I’ve tried other shafts and eliminated: AutoFlex, VF-6, Hzrdus Green, speeder NX, tensei 1k all colors, Brava,….
 

Open to thoughts, suggestions and criticism.

[Kwheat]

Have you tried a ventus red yet?  Your blue/black experience was similar to mine.  Black 6x too stiff, blue good feel but a little wild.   Red tipped was great, played it for 1.5 years then went to AD XC 6tx which is like in-between red and black.  Red was workable but stable, XC is a friendly very anti left black.

[Ned Ryerson]

On 7/12/2024 at 11:18 PM, Kwheat said:

Have you tried a ventus red yet?  Your blue/black experience was similar to mine.  Black 6x too stiff, blue good feel but a little wild.   Red tipped was great, played it for 1.5 years then went to AD XC 6tx which is like in-between red and black.  Red was workable but stable, XC is a friendly very anti left black.

I did hit the Red in 6x well in the original stealth plus in an 8*. I should pick up a stiff and try some tipping. Never tried the XC. Thank you 

[Hougz79]

I’m similar.  I gamed (still do at times) Ventus Black 6X for 4 years.  Ventus Blue could get very hooky (had it in 3w for a few years until tip broke).  
 

This year I fit into TR Red in 3w.  It’s awesome.  The stiff handle really makes it feel stable.  It inspired me to try TR Blue in my driver because I was looking for slightly more launch and a little easier to turn over.

 

 I’d give a try to the TR lines; worth a try for sure.

[Cactus Jack]

Do you enjoy 300 yard leisurely walks down the middle of fairways? If so, play the Diamana 👍. 

[Wardonation]

On 7/12/2024 at 8:18 PM, Ned Ryerson said:

Good Evening. Long time reader, fairly frequent seller, rare poster. It’s July and I have finally decided on a driver head:

Qi10 Core 8*
I tried them all and the Qi10 core and AI Smoke TD Max are the clear winners for me. Now I need to pick a shaft. So I started by trying X vs S in a few as I am borderline. I went stiff tipped 1/2” in all.

this was my final test: warm up and hit 10 drives with each. Take the best 7 and compare. Attached is what it looks like. 
Some other background data:

I am 46, 6’ 205lbs

Currently a 6.1 index

Have been as low as a 3.8 this year and as high as 7.0. I play 2x per week. I am a former PGA Club Pro, Former clubfitter & clubmaker. I know enough to screw myself up. Just a hobby now. I have a Uneekor XO2. Borrowed a Trackman as well for this and the numbers were pretty much the same. I always start with my old standby of a Diamana D+ 60 for baseline. I hit that shaft fine, just tend to be less consistent (spray it left and right). My angle of attack is +8>10*=16>20* launch. I try to hit a shape with every drive depending on what feels right. 
Couple notes on my perception:

D+ was the same as always. Some nuclear, some left and some Heely Dans right.

Ventus Blue + felt good and went well when I started to groove it. Hit both shapes, nothing wild. More controlled than Original. Only one of these I have hit before. I have had good and bad streaks with it. My bad streaks were really bad. Couldn’t possibly be me though.

Ventus Black + felt stout, not harsh like I thought the original could. Couldn’t feel a kick. Had trouble timing the load. Hit some low left that felt dead. Straightest though

Denali Blue sprayed it everywhere. Hit my longest drives with this one and my shortest. The 3 I didn’t count were the worst. Not sure I could trust it.

Denali Black could not time it. Was accurate but I am missing a lot. Hit a couple silly knuckleballs that I didn’t hit with others (695 RPM, 1013 RPM).

I’ve tried other shafts and eliminated: AutoFlex, VF-6, Hzrdus Green, speeder NX, tensei 1k all colors, Brava,….
 

Open to thoughts, suggestions and criticism.

your spin #'s ae great for a sim but in real life you are way too low... At your club speed you need at least 2200. 

[MattC555]

Your angle of attack scares me.  Have you tried Ventus Black TR?  I've tried them all and I find it to bet the best of the bunch. 

[Pnwpingi210]

2 hours ago, Wardonation said:

your spin #'s ae great for a sim but in real life you are way too low... At your club speed you need at least 2200. 

I was going to say the same things.  That spin is not going to be very course friendly. 
 

The ol d+ looks the best for how you are delving the clubs.  You might try to get that AoA down to 3-5 degress.  It’s going to be hard to get good results hitting 8 degress up with 6 degrees loft at 100-103 mph club head speed.

[Ned Ryerson]

I have worked to great extent lowering my angle of attack. I became a decent golfer in early/mid 00’s when high launch/no spin was the rage. Lesser often comes with a left turn signal. I was a PGA Professional, fairly familiar with swing dynamics and tend to hit it more square with this AoA. I target 1900-2300 depending on face angle. Actual depends on the day. I can turn the Swingspeed up 5-7mph to make the launch/spin more ideal, but my contact is very good right now. I guess I should be clear on current state and goals:

I hit 6/12 fairways with driver last round

I had 3 others in the ballpark(left rough)

1 double cross & 2 awful(one push cut,

one toe hook). 

I want to be 8/12 fairway. 3 ballpark and one that is just me being a knucklehead. 
D+ is good, just curvature right or left isn’t as consistent as I would like. 

 

Edited July 16 by Ned Ryerson

[Pnwpingi210]

15 minutes ago, Ned Ryerson said:

I have worked to great extent lowering my angle of attack. I became a decent golfer in early/mid 00’s when high launch/no spin was the rage. Lesser often comes with a left turn signal. I was a PGA Professional, fairly familiar with swing dynamics and tend to hit it more square with this AoA. I target 1900-2300 depending on face angle. Actual depends on the day. I can turn the Swingspeed up 5-7mph to make the launch/spin more ideal, but my contact is very good right now. I guess I should be clear on current state and goals:

I hit 6/12 fairways with driver last round

I had 3 others in the ballpark(left rough)

1 double cross & 2 awful(one push cut,

one toe hook). 

I want to be 8/12 fairway. 3 ballpark and one that is just me being a knucklehead. 
D+ is good, just curvature right or left isn’t as consistent as I would like. 

 

I get it.

 

i would say since the early 2000s we (golfers) changed our thoughts on driver spin and we now know its what helps with stability  and control of the ball.

 

you want more fairways, your going to need more spin at 150 ball speed.  2500 to maybe 2900?  You will find a hole lot more fairways and likely not lose as much n course as the camera based launch monitors will tell you (their algorithms favor super low spin)

 

maybe a standard or max head?

 

As a pga pro, what would you tell a student looking for the answers you seek?

Edited July 16 by Pnwpingi210

[Ned Ryerson]

I completely agree with launch optimization. Just explaining where this swing came from.

This is the standard head, not the LS.
 

Trackman shows similar for same session: 

D+ 155.1 ball speed, 17.9* launch, 2042 backspin. 
 

6* was a function of face angle vs spin. I hit this at 8* and it’s 2200-2600, but more left. I am aware this is me with a slammed shut face vs club. Max to -2 to get the face angle? Still interested in shaft suggestions as well. Thank you
 

[Wardonation]

30 minutes ago, Ned Ryerson said:

I have worked to great extent lowering my angle of attack. I became a decent golfer in early/mid 00’s when high launch/no spin was the rage. Lesser often comes with a left turn signal. I was a PGA Professional, fairly familiar with swing dynamics and tend to hit it more square with this AoA. I target 1900-2300 depending on face angle. Actual depends on the day. I can turn the Swingspeed up 5-7mph to make the launch/spin more ideal, but my contact is very good right now. I guess I should be clear on current state and goals:

I hit 6/12 fairways with driver last round

I had 3 others in the ballpark(left rough)

1 double cross & 2 awful(one push cut,

one toe hook). 

I want to be 8/12 fairway. 3 ballpark and one that is just me being a knucklehead. 
D+ is good, just curvature right or left isn’t as consistent as I would like. 

 

we are close go try the VF 6 X or 6S tipped 1/2". Also you are way too up and hitting knuckle balls. You need loft for real golf. You have a great set up for distance for a simulator but nothing more. average 2200 spin will change your life you have got to be way too in to out and flipping it (I know because I tend to do the same thing. 

[Pnwpingi210]

Max head and maybe shorter playing length?  In guessing you’re playing 45.5ish?  Little shorter playing length and little heavier head might help.

 

Im a bit of a shaftoid and I’m not sure these a shaft that’s going to bring launch down.  You’re already playing 6 degrees loft.

[Ned Ryerson]

2 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Max head and maybe shorter playing length?  In guessing you’re playing 45.5ish?  Little shorter playing length and little heavier head might help.

 

Im a bit of a shaftoid and I’m not sure these a shaft that’s going to bring launch down.  You’re already playing 6 degrees loft.

Playing 45”. Looking for consistent, lower is function of my attack. Straight and feels good is my aim

[Pnwpingi210]

Just now, Ned Ryerson said:

Playing 45”. Looking for consistent, lower is function of my attack. Straight and feels good is my aim

Right, but loft is a variable that can help add spin and in turn keep you straighter.

 

normally the answer to your question is to add loft to the driver head or try some shafts with a softer tip section.  
 

those aren’t options here due to the already high launch for your ball speed (almost any ball speed for that matter) , which is created by the extreme 8 degrees up angle of attack.  

 

 

 

[Ned Ryerson]

So different driver head is more likely? Similar or as forgiving as Q10 core, same or lower launch and more spin?  This sounds like I will be back in a G430max or TD Max

Edited July 16 by Ned Ryerson

[Pnwpingi210]

49 minutes ago, Ned Ryerson said:

So different driver head is more likely? Similar or as forgiving as Q10 core, same or lower launch and more spin?  This sounds like I will be back in a G430max.

I don’t think you are going to find a head that launches much lower than a qi core at 6 degrees.  
 

you also probably won’t find a shaft that going to lower launch and increase spin.

 

a higher spinning head ( ai smoke max, q I max, ping 10k max) lofted down is probably going help by maintaining launch and adding some spin.  I don’t have much experience with those, but anecdotally the 10k seems to launch the flattest with best spin deltas.

 

if you get AoA down to 3-5(5 is still extremely high for anyone other than long drive) your going to open a lot more doors/have a lot more levers at your disposal to solving this problem.

[Ned Ryerson]

12 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I don’t think you are going to find a head that launches much lower than a qi core at 6 degrees.  
 

you also probably won’t find a shaft that going to lower launch and increase spin.

 

a higher spinning head ( ai smoke max, q I max, ping 10k max) lofted down is probably going help by maintaining launch and adding some spin.  I don’t have much experience with those, but anecdotally the 10k seems to launch the flattest with best spin deltas.

 

if you get AoA down to 3-5(5 is still extremely high for anyone other than long drive) your going to open a lot more doors/have a lot more levers at your disposal to solving this problem.

I’d love to reduce AoA and still hit it well. Haven’t figured that out yet. Flatter Plane, Ball position, grip, lag drills and yes outside lessons. I have more video than 80’s P*#nstars. 

[Ned Ryerson]

I might have more success going more loft and getting rid of the lefts. I hit the Core at 8* and launch was 18.6ish. Spin closer to 2100. Maybe I’ll have luck tipping a Stiff or X to combat. Overall after some decent score I am trending back to 4, so I am not playing bad. 

[Pnwpingi210]

2 minutes ago, Ned Ryerson said:

I’d love to reduce AoA and still hit it well. Haven’t figured that out yet. Flatter Plane, Ball position, grip, lag drills and yes outside lessons. I have more video than 80’s P*#nstars. 

There’s a forum on here that could help 🙂

 

 

teeing it lower and playing a driver at 44.5 for about a year helped me work out some similar things.  I’m back to 45 inch while maintaining better impact dynamics

[Ned Ryerson]

Update. Here is 8* trial with Denali Blue, Black and old standby D+. I did not include the Ventus Blue as it was heavy left outdoors on the range and Ventus Black was ugly. Traded for a Red V+ to trial in the near future. At 8* got only 1* more launch. But spin was 2200-2400. I included dispersion charts as well. 
Yellow is Denali Black

Blue is Denali Blue

Red is D+

I hit 10 with each, eliminated longest(they were 1200-1300 silliness), eliminated 2 shorts. Mostly draw, couple blocks. 
 

spray chart below:

pink is D+ at 6* which represents the problem
red is D+ at 8* using weaker grip
I suppose losing 6 yards and going 8* right trade off🤦‍♂️
 

Edited July 17 by Ned Ryerson

[Ned Ryerson]

Trackman was also rolling to validate it was close. Trackman showed 1-3 more mph ball speed, way higher clubhead speed. Launch was almost identical, Spin was +/- 10%.

[Rbsiedsc]

17 minutes ago, Ned Ryerson said:

Update. Here is 8* trial with Denali Blue, Black and old standby D+. I did not include the Ventus Blue as it was heavy left outdoors on the range and Ventus Black was ugly. Traded for a Red V+ to trial in the near future. At 8* got only 1* more launch. But spin was 2200-2400. I included dispersion charts as well. 
Yellow is Denali Black

Blue is Denali Blue

Red is D+

I hit 10 with each, eliminated longest(they were 1200-1300 silliness), eliminated 2 shorts. Mostly draw, couple blocks. 
 

spray chart below:

pink is D+ at 6* which represents the problem
red is D+ at 8* using weaker grip
I suppose losing 6 yards and going 8* right trade off🤦‍♂️
 

I’d take that blue dispersion all day

[Ned Ryerson]

 

Just now, Rbsiedsc said:

I’d take that blue dispersion all day

The blue was consistent but pretty far left. Red was closer to center line and couple blocks still in the fairway also.

[AdExec]

That launch and spin is the definition of knuckle ball. Aka launch monitor queen. 
 

not surprising you’re spraying it both ways. 
 

up the loft, go to stiff flex un-tipped 

 

you are early extending or flipping the heck out of your hands to launch that high at that speed. No shaft will help this. 
 

low loft and stiffest shafts possible is a band aid on an open wound. These are swing flaw numbers. 

[Ned Ryerson]

1 minute ago, AdExec said:

That launch and spin is the definition of knuckle ball. Aka launch monitor queen. 
 

not surprising you’re spraying it both ways. 
 

up the loft, go to stiff flex un-tipped 

 

you are early extending or flipping the heck out of your hands to launch that high at that speed. No shaft will help this. 
 

low loft and stiffest shafts possible is a band aid on an open wound. These are swing flaw numbers. 

Pretty aware of my swing and it was referenced multiple times. Also aware of what ideal looks like. That is my permanent corrective action, however optimizing set up is a wise interim.

[Ned Ryerson]

Update: Went to a higher spin/loft driver(Ping 10k) with a firm tip shaft (VF-6). I gave myself a couple weeks worth of lessons. Bared down and put in some time. Wanted to see what I could accomplish and use the Member-Member as a competitive trial. Went very well. Hit 9/12, 11/12, 10/12 fairways with driver. Missed one wide left(toe hook>water)and 2 blocks. Blocks were in play. The other 3 were barely in the rough. Took last couple days off and then put in a practice session tonight. Challenged myself for 10 serious drives and I am pleased with results. Excited really:

Spin over 2k, launch down 2*, everything in play.

 

[Pnwpingi210]

7 minutes ago, Ned Ryerson said:

Update: Went to a higher spin/loft driver(Ping 10k) with a firm tip shaft (VF-6). I gave myself a couple weeks worth of lessons. Bared down and put in some time. Wanted to see what I could accomplish and use the Member-Member as a competitive trial. Went very well. Hit 9/12, 11/12, 10/12 fairways with driver. Missed one wide left(toe hook>water)and 2 blocks. Blocks were in play. The other 3 were barely in the rough. Took last couple days off and then put in a practice session tonight. Challenged myself for 10 serious drives and I am pleased with results. Excited really:

Spin over 2k, launch down 2*, everything in play.

 

Really great work!

[Ned Ryerson]

Here is the full data, couple high on face 20* launch, take those out and it’s 15-16.