Thinking about Louisville woods

[wrmiller]

Am I nuts?!

Hello all. I am thinking about 'going back' to persimmon woods and have a few questions for the local 'experts' if you don't mind?

1: When I played them back in the 80s, I had a very high swing speed and used to crack the woods down the back of the hosel. Currently, I average about 110 with a 44.5" driver, sometimes going up a couple mph if I'm going after a par 5 or whatever. Will the new Louisville woods hold up?

2: I have a mid to high ball flight with my current 9.5 deg driver, and given the swing speed in question #1, what degree loft would I want in a persimmon?

3: Louisville says to play whatever ball suits your personal game. I play a Pro-V1. Would this be an appropriate ball for persimmon?

4: I'm going to lose distance, and that's fine, but can anyone hazard a guess as to how much? I currently hit about 280 carry.

Thanks for all help/comments offered! :)

[dlygrisse]

If your are properly fitted and hit the ball on the screws I wouldnt thing you would lose too much, it is the miss hits where I would think you would be penalized the most.

[Buzzkill]

I tried to go back to actual woods in 2000 since that what I grew up with in the 70's. Anyway, I was at least 30 yards shorter with them so that experiment didn't last long.

[freddiec]

miller,
I play persimmon quite often during the warm season and I see about a 10 to 12 percent distance loss. Most people like me who play persimmon expect to loose distance, its only natural. Personally I hit a persimmon about 240 to 250 when I hit it good, about 275 with Hi Tech gear. I play it because I love the feel and the sound of persimmon which is something that has been lost in our great game. I buy old Titleist Balatas, (tour balatas, 384 tour, professionals, ect) off ebay. If the club you play has a good hard poly finish you could get away with a modern ball like a pro v which will go about 10 yards longer with a persimmon, but I perfer the authentic feel of the old ball myself. The Maxfli Revolution ball which was around in the early 90s is also a great compromise. I know a guy who uses that a lot with persimmon and it feels and performs great.

[wrmiller]

Their (Louisville) website says that their woods will work with any modern ball, and I'll probably stick with the V-1, as I remember those old balata balls spin a LOT. I could poke it as far as anyone on tour in those days, but man some of those shots could turn 90 degrees in flight...

I'm more concerned with durability, but since I've lost over 10 mph they should hold up. The distance loss is not that important as I only play one course over 7000 anymore, and then I'll just have to have a 3 and 5 to go with the driver.

Thanks all for your input. I think when it starts warming up, I'll get more serious about this.

[drewspin]

If you play the modern ball, you will want to go up in loft with the persimmon driver from what you are using in the modern driver. The persimmon driver will not launch as high, and the ball will spin less... so go up in loft.

I have found that Brassies (2-woods) (which are generally cheaper than persimmon drivers on ebay, if that is even possible anymore) they are a better fit with the modern ball... and since they have so little value, breaking one is not all that big a deal. Great fun!

[XYB34A]

balata balls of old, will not carry as far as a new ball. it was said even back in the dark ages, that a balata ball that set on the shelf in a pro shop. lost about 1.3 yards per month in distance. there are no modern day balata balls, and a prov1 hit on the screws, should carry and play like a modern day titanium driver. The BIG IF- hit on the screws. it means your sweetspot goes from the size of a dime, in a persimmon wood. to the size of half dollar or better in a titanium wood.

[Bella Woods]

wrmiller:

I play persimmon clubs quite often for the fun of it and have for years. Mostly my Peerless Petes, MacGregor Tourney and PowerBilts.

I was a Titleist Tour Balata player (100 or 90 compression depending on the weather) for many years until they quit making them, and persimmon woods only from 1969 through 1995.

Swing speed in the old days and currently 105mph, the difference is the weight and length of the shaft (Re: my swing speed is pretty much the same from 30 years of age to mid 50s now). I have found that playing a 375-390 gram (or so) classic persimmon driver compared to my modern Taylor Made R9 in the 325-330 gram range is about 4mph. So I think I would have been about 109mph in the old days with a modern graphite (lighter) shaft.

I think the only reason you would split the neck of a persimmon wood is because the wood was dried out or not of high quality. I don't think high quality persimmon (approximately prior to 1970) would split if you had a 150mph swing speed. I have heard that manufacturers changed the way they dried out persimmon wood at some point in the early 1960s and that it affected the quality (strength) of the wood. I think you can tell the difference in quality of a persimmon wood from the old days to more modern ones, not that they didn't make quality persimmon woods right up until the mid 90s, my 1993 Peerless Petes are very solid.

Louisville Golf makes great persimmon woods and I think they will hold up to any ball you want to play them with (in my opinion, a fact, not a plug for Louisville Golf). I play the Pro V1x with my persimmons including the 50s and 60s clubs and they work out great as a balanced ball (between distance and feel/touch arounfd the greens). I agree with freddiec though, the balatas were so soft coming off the old persimmon it can't be matched today, but distance loss due to age would prohibit the use for me.

I conducted a minor experiment this past fall. Over the course of two rounds I measured the distance of the five best drives with both my 1993 Peerless Pete driver (DG S300 shaft 120 to 130 gram shaft) and my 2009 Taylor Made R9 fitted to me on launch monitor (Fubuki Stiff 63 gram shaft). Average of my five best drives with my persimmon driver was 267 yards, with my R9 292 yards, a 25 yard difference. I kept track of driving distance for one year in the early 90s with my Peerless Pete and it was 261.7 yards with a balata ball (middle of the road on the PGA Tour that year as i recall). My conclusion was that the ball made approximately a 7 yard difference, the shaft (type and its weight) about a 15 yard difference and the head of the club itself about 3 yards.


I am going to put Fujikura Motore Speeder shafts in a set of new (1999 - unshafted) PowerBilt wood heads I have this spring and hit the launch monitor (and golf course). My prediction is a fifteen yard difference from my R9.

I would try an 11 degree (or no less than 10.5 degree) persimmon driver to help counteract the modern balls lower spin.

[astamm8]

i've never cracked a persimmon driver myself, but i know nicklaus did a lot in his prime (apparently 9 times in '63), so i'm guessing that it's very possible to do with a high swing speed even if you do have a great (and not old or abused) block of wood.

[Bella Woods]

I was under the impression that Nicklaus cracked the inserts of his woods and not the wood itself, could be wrong though.

[wrmiller]

The only surviving member of the last set of Wilson Staff Tour Blocks purchased is my 3 wood. I have taken it out to the range and hit some little 3/4 swings with it and was plesantly surprised to see some go over the green @ 220. But I'm afraid I'm going to break it, so it spends it's days in my bedroom staff bag.

Not bragging, but when the original 'Pitsburg Persimmon' came out, I had just busted my Wilson Staff driver, again, and was looking for a replacement. The local pro set me up with a long drive fitter who had one of these new fangled radar gadgets, and clocked my average head speed at 127 mph with a 44 inch shaft, xxx, with a steel head. Hated the sound, but it worked. Don't know if that speed was accurate, but with that club and the two replacement heads (I was caving in the face) I easily carried 320, as marked by the railroad boxcars out past the range that I would hit on the fly.

It's hard, getting old(er), but I find myself missing the days of wood-woods (and their associated challenges), and having recently gone back to a forged blade, I'm thinking of the persimmons more and more. It's like irons, in that, I'm more satisfied with a great shot with a more difficult club, than a great shot with a SGI shovel (no offense to anyone who plays them, this is just me). No, I don't hit all perfect shots with my musclebacks, but my misses just make me try harder to get that shot that puts that stupid grin on my face and a feeling of accomplishment in my heart. I'm looking for the same in my woods. (that and I'm tired of hearing the clank/bong/ting of metal woods).

This all probably sounds stupid to some, but hey, it's the way I would like to play. The guys who play hickory probably know what I'm talking about.

[wrmiller]

[quote name='Bella Woods' date='22 January 2010 - 06:26 PM' timestamp='1264210008' post='2197989']
I was under the impression that Nicklaus cracked the inserts of his woods and not the wood itself, could be wrong though.
[/quote]

I think he did both, and not trying to compare myself to anyone (let alone Jack), I did that as well. Including driving the insert into the wood face itself. Knocking the sole plate loose, and in general ruining woods. I hated balata balls back then too, because I could crack/knock out-of-round a brand new ball if I tagged it hard.

But I've lost ~15 mph of swing speed, which is why I think I can maybe hit them again.

[Bella Woods]

127mph with xxx shaft is amazing (and fast). I did not mean to imply it was not possible to break a persimmon driver (although I kinda did didn't I), I'm talking on average really.

By quality, I meant density and weight of the wood not necessarily its age or condition. Didn't Nicklaus play the same MacGregor 3 wood for 35 years?

Speaking of balata golf balls, remember bellying a blade iron and almost cutting them in half? Or did only I do that. When square grooves came in, I can remember putting scoring line marks on the ball with just one hit of my Ping Eye 2's.

Have fun when you get your new woods.

[wrmiller]

[quote name='Bella Woods' date='22 January 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1264212680' post='2198112']
127mph with xxx shaft is amazing (and fast). I did not mean to imply it was not possible to break a persimmon driver (although I kinda did didn't I), I'm talking on average really.

By quality, I meant density and weight of the wood not necessarily its age or condition. Didn't Nicklaus play the same MacGregor 3 wood for 35 years?

Speaking of balata golf balls, remember bellying a blade iron and almost cutting them in half? Or did only I do that. When square grooves came in, I can remember putting scoring line marks on the ball with just one hit of my Ping Eye 2's.

Have fun when you get your new woods.
[/quote]

ROFL!!!!

Man, I'd forgotten about 'smilies', and yea, I could put a grin on one with the best of 'em.

[astamm8]

There's a very interesting photo thing on golf magazines website with jacks old drivers. I don't have a link, but definitely worth a look.

He cracked the wood right along the heel, maybe inserts too. He also repaired them and kept playing them, instead of automatically grabbing a new one. He did play that 3 wood for 35 years or so.

I only brought up Jack because I figure he must have head the highest quality clubs, so even those could break.

[Hateto3Putt]

[quote name='wrmiller' date='22 January 2010 - 08:47 PM' timestamp='1264211260' post='2198047']

Not bragging, but when the original '[b]Pitsburg [/b]Persimmon' came out,
[/quote]

Ahem:: Pittsburg[b][size="4"]h[/size][/b] if you don't mind.

[wrmiller]

Ah...sorry.

[ChristianMc]

Why play persimmon clubs that are designed to simulate the modern game as far as possible - I really can't see the point in this. Surely you want the feel and sound of persimmon as you use to play them. I respect that this may do violence to the wood as you fear but playing a club made of wood for its own sake as these modern persimmons seem to be makes little sense (?) The greats of the game hung on to what they really liked; players like Norman using a 50's Mac M85 up to the early 90's (I believe - Fred correct me if wrong).

[freddiec]

Hi Christian,
Greg played a M43 which is a head just like the 693. Couples, Crenshaw, Love III and Nick Faldo played a M85 for a long time. Greg did play the M43 for a long time and won I think 2 British Opens with it. Dave Wood of Wood Bros. customized it in his shop for Greg. Here is a pic of a M43. It as a butterfly sole plate like the M85, but not an eye o matic. It says "MacGregor Tourney" on the plate. Its a big deep block. I'm glad you asked, this thread needed a pic! LOL

[jaskanski]

[quote name='freddiec' date='23 January 2010 - 06:27 PM' timestamp='1264271245' post='2199205']
Hi Christian,
Greg played a M43 which is a head just like the 693. Couples, Crenshaw, Love III and Nick Faldo played a M85 for a long time. Greg did play the M43 for a long time and won I think 2 British Opens with it. Dave Wood of Wood Bros. customized it in his shop for Greg. Here is a pic of a M43. It as a butterfly sole plate like the M85, but not an eye o matic. It says "MacGregor Tourney" on the plate. Its a big deep block. I'm glad you asked, this thread needed a pic! LOL
[/quote]


Sorry Fred, but Greg bagged his second Open ('93) title with a King Cobra metal driver. An awesome display of driving it was too.

[RobotDoctor]

Good grief, Fred's M43 again. Every time I see that driver I have to wipe the drool off my keyboard.

[brokgolfer]

Really I just wanted to post in a thread that had a picture of Fred's M43.....

 

But as I'm here I have to say that I think Christian raises a good though for me slightly uncomfortable point. As a persimmon enthusiast I desperately want Louisville to continue, prosper and grow. They are a small flicker of light in a very dark tunnel. But I have trialled some of their modern offerings and found them not to have the same level of appeal in terms of aesthetics or feel as the great persimmons of the 50's onwards. In terms of statistitical performance they may hold up well with the great blocks of the past but the total package was some way behind. IMHO they are caught between a desire to somehow compete with the lightweight frying pans of todays game as well as holding on to a link with the games history. It is an unenviable position especially when you can buy a great persimmon driver from the 50's onwards with a name and history for some way under $100. I believe that they do have some more traditional offerings so if I looked again that is where I would begin.

 

Cheers, BG

[wrmiller]

[quote name='ChristianMc' date='23 January 2010 - 10:44 AM' timestamp='1264268699' post='2199156']
Why play persimmon clubs that are designed to simulate the modern game as far as possible - I really can't see the point in this. Surely you want the feel and sound of persimmon as you use to play them. I respect that this may do violence to the wood as you fear but playing a club made of wood for its own sake as these modern persimmons seem to be makes little sense (?) The greats of the game hung on to what they really liked; players like Norman using a 50's Mac M85 up to the early 90's (I believe - Fred correct me if wrong).
[/quote]

If I understand you correctly sir, you're asking why I wouldn't prefer to play the clubs made back then?

If I understand correctly, the answer is that I fear that buying 20-30 year old dried out clubs off of Ebay would have me simply destroying them. Which is why I don't play my only surviving persimmon. Are you telling me that I can play this 20 year old wood? Safely?

The 50s woods that Louisville makes are 'supposedly' exact replicas of the 50s era woods. But made recently, and not dried out/cracked/whatever. If they are made to the same dimensions, with the same wood, what would be that different?

My MP68s are not correct from an era standpoint, but I've got my eye out for a decent set of fg-17s on Ebay, which were my last set of irons used when I was playing wooden woods.

I attached some pics...

[brokgolfer]

Both options are fine. A classic 50's replica from Louisville may be great, I really hope its is. I havn't hit one so couldn't speak from personal knowledge. But I have hit the more modern offerings that form the larger part of their portfolio which is where my comments were directed before. But there is no reason to expect a well cared for persimmon from the 50's onwards to be unduly brittle. I have been playing them for a couple of years with no problem at all and know plenty of others (including pro's with high swing speeds) with similar experiences.

The reality is that the price of even very good persimmon on ebay etc is amazingly low and there is very little financial risk involved. So if you have just one treasured driver that you want to keep pristine perhaps pop it somewhere safe and pick up a couple of second hand ones online to see how you go. At the same time see if you can trial a 50's Louisville Classic and see how they compare. Should be fun and i'd love to hear how it went.

All the best, BG

[Bella Woods]

[quote name='ChristianMc' date='23 January 2010 - 12:44 PM' timestamp='1264268699' post='2199156']
Why play persimmon clubs that are designed to simulate the modern game as far as possible - I really can't see the point in this. Surely you want the feel and sound of persimmon as you use to play them. I respect that this may do violence to the wood as you fear but playing a club made of wood for its own sake as these modern persimmons seem to be makes little sense (?) The greats of the game hung on to what they really liked; players like Norman using a 50's Mac M85 up to the early 90's (I believe - Fred correct me if wrong).
[/quote]

The greats of the game such as Norman did hang on to what they liked, but to my knowledge Greg Norman was not playing 1950s MacGregor driver in the late 80s/early 90s with a 1950s shaft in it. He played a forty to 50 year old head with a modern shaft. Same with all the other pros that played classic clubs (heads) later on, none of them played the clubs original shaft that I know of.

As far as "simulating the modern game", I assume your are referring to putting a Fujikura Motore Speeder shaft into a persimmon wood. I look at that as simply upgrading the shaft in a golf club that I like to hit/play. I can play a club I really enjoy hitting and lose maybe 15 yards. Distance isn't everything to me and I can still hit the persimmon driver 275 plus which is fine on most of the courses I play (usually 6,600 to 6,900 range). Usually people who do not see the point in playing persimmon woods in these modern times have never really played them and don't understand why people do because they have no reference point. Not a knock on anybody, just my observation. Out of curiosity ChristianMc, have you played persimmon woods or only modern equipment?

In my opinion, something needs to be said about the "evolution" of modern and/or "game improvement" golf clubs, specifically woods. When the mass exodus from persimmon to steel/other composite wood clubs was excelerating several things happened. Technology was booming in general (computers etc.) and the manufacturers used it as a selling point to some degree, they "jumped on the technological wave". Advertising/endorsement dollars exploded also with the arrival of Callaway etc. and the pros were the beneficiary of it. There is also the fact that the manufacturers were able lower their production/labor costs from say 65 to 70 % for a persimmon wood to say 30-35% for the steel/composite. So you had the perfect storm, more money could be made and you had a vehicle to do it with. Manufacturers exist to make money, no longer for the family but now for the multitudes of public shareholders. So it seems to me that money has more to do with it than a desire to "improve the game." I hope I'm not to cynical.

As far as modern woods being superior equipment, the driver probably is due to it being easier to hit for the majority of golfers. I say probably because for me it isn't any more accurate than a persimmon wood. But, I would beg to differ regarding the fairway woods. The trampoline effect of these woods is (or was) negligable due to the size of the face. I have never owned a five wood that I could hit farther or better that my Peerless Pete persimmon, and that includes my current modern Taylor Made R9. I honestly do not see much of a difference in the playability of modern verses persimmon fairway woods.

[Bella Woods]

[quote name='freddiec' date='23 January 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1264271245' post='2199205']
Hi Christian,
Greg played a M43 which is a head just like the 693. Couples, Crenshaw, Love III and Nick Faldo played a M85 for a long time. Greg did play the M43 for a long time and won I think 2 British Opens with it. Dave Wood of Wood Bros. customized it in his shop for Greg. Here is a pic of a M43. It as a butterfly sole plate like the M85, but not an eye o matic. It says "MacGregor Tourney" on the plate. Its a big deep block. I'm glad you asked, this thread needed a pic! LOL
[/quote]

freddiec:

That is one awesome looking golf club!

[brokgolfer]

Hi Bella,

 

Some confusion here I think. Christian is a persimmon devottee and founder of the UK persimmon golf society so your definitely preaching to the converted and I think you, he and I would be in violent agreement on all your points which are well made!

 

What I think Christian was driving at was that if you are going to play persimmon then why not play persimmon that has all the things about it that make it great: aesthetics and feel in particular. Part of the Louisville portfolio may well live up to this with their replicas of the 50's classics but their more modern offerings have moved in the direction of larger lightweight heads and do little for me in terms of aesthetics at least.

 

Louisville Golf Drivers

 

Thats all he was hinting at I think.

 

Cheers, BG

[Bella Woods]

brokgolfer:

Wow! I guess there was confusion on my part (I'll call it a misread). My humblest apologies to Christian if I misread his meaning. I did not know about the UK persimmon society and his involvement etc. Egg on face.

Thanks for the info.

[freddiec]

I think the Louisville 50th looks really nice. As far as I've heard they have turned out some really good quality persimmons.
To be honest, I haven't hit too many modern day persimmons that were built after the early 90s, but have always been a fan of the older MacGregors for a number of reasons, including design (looks), weight and feel off the face and I grew up hitting them, the nastalgia part does play a big part for me. It is true that its really a challenge to get your hands on a good classic MacGregor that is in the condition that could take a new modern shaft, but they are out there. The wood on those if they were cared for aren't brittle, in fact the quality of the persimmon is usually better than anything made today, per many. I play a 1953 M85 that has the orig. leather grip and the orig. tourney shaft that does have a few light rust spots on it, but man, it still goes a mile and feels out of this world. I got lucky on that purchase and it was well taken care of. Playing persimmons is a passion and like Wine, I say buy as many as you can afford and taste them all, it certainly is a fun process.

RobotDoctor,
Clean yourself up, your making me sick..hahaha

[wrmiller]

I thank you all, again, for your input with regard to my original questions.

Rightly or wrongly, I will likely be getting a Louisville Classic 50's driver here in a few months and taking it out to the range to get the old kinks out prior to putting it in the bag on Sunday. I don't think it will take much, as my swing today is actually better than it was back when I had to swing for the fence with every shot.

It better be good, because when I show up with a persimmon in the bag, I better have some game to back it up, or my friends will have a great roast at my expense! At least they should be able to out drive me then...

In the meantime, I will be putting a new grip on my 3 wood and taking it out to the range. I realized listening to you guys that my staff is nothing special, and if it breaks, it breaks. Why have it collecting dust just sitting around?

Any suggestions as to prepping this old dog before I hit it? Should I soak it in oil or something? (probably a really dumb question)