2010 Leupold GX-4

[TMBob]

Legal?

Looking at a new range finder and I had a few questions about this brand and model.

It seems that this unit should be legal for play until you snap on the yellow face plate.......true or not?

Any other thoughts on their products?

[duffer888]

Not legal in any way, shape or form, from my understanding. Leupold tried, but lost the argument.

Leupold makes excellent optics for rifles.

[lask]

Correct, the gx4 can not be used in competition because it has the POTENTIAL to measure slope and other factors. The USGA said no because it has the ability to measure slope and some of the other factors which are a no no. All of the conforming rangefinders do not have the potential. Personally, i think the faceplate is a great idea, but i went with the gx3 because i can use it in tournaments.

[Llortamaisey]

GX-4 is illegal but when the silver face is on, you're the only one who really knows.

[Body_Visions]

Can the GX-4 be set up to measure actual distance and slope only? In other words, just give me the slope and actual distance without suggesting a club?

[lask]

The player has to program in their club yardages with the GX4 and GX2 in order for it to recommend a club

[golowgolfer]

The USGA ruled it is not legal, regardless if you take it off or not, same as the Bushnell models with Slope.

[Skaffa77]

That's too bad. I have to admit that I don't agree with the ruling.

By this same logic, clubs with adjustable technology (weights, face angles, loft, face plates) should be deemed illegal as well. They have the capability or potential of being altered during a round of golf and that should warrent them to be illegal for handicap purposes and tournament play. I believe if the device with slope (or other measures) can be disabled, it should perfectly legal. Personally, I always thought the code of conduct in golf was something players honored by calling penalties on themselves.

Anyway, some have argued that golfers could use slope or other measurements secretively without the knowledge of other players and thus the Leupold built a very overt way to disable to the capability. I've disagreed with the rule from the start (when additional measurements can be disabled) and continue to find fault with the logic.

[tbowles411]

[quote name='Skaffa77' timestamp='1288628054' post='2768897']
That's too bad. I have to admit that I don't agree with the ruling.

By this same logic, clubs with adjustable technology (weights, face angles, loft, face plates) should be deemed illegal as well. They have the capability or potential of being altered during a round of golf and that should warrent them to be illegal for handicap purposes and tournament play.
[/quote]
Not quite the same thing. Adjustments can be made before or after a TOURNAMNENT round. Not during actual play. If someone makes an adjustment during the round, they would be DQ'd. For handicap purposes, probably no one would care what you did. None of my partners would do it. I for sure wouldn't.

[Skaffa77]

[quote name='tbowles411' timestamp='1288629421' post='2768915']
[quote name='Skaffa77' timestamp='1288628054' post='2768897']
That's too bad. I have to admit that I don't agree with the ruling.

By this same logic, clubs with adjustable technology (weights, face angles, loft, face plates) should be deemed illegal as well. They have the capability or potential of being altered during a round of golf and that should warrent them to be illegal for handicap purposes and tournament play.
[/quote]
Not quite the same thing. Adjustments can be made before or after a TOURNAMNENT round. Not during actual play. If someone makes an adjustment during the round, they would be DQ'd. For handicap purposes, probably no one would care what you did. None of my partners would do it. I for sure wouldn't.
[/quote]

I hear what you are saying, but to me it's very much the same concept and a rule that conflicts with other similar rules.

In either situation, it's a feature that makes an piece of equipment illegal for use during play. You are not allowed to use the feature during a tournament round of golf or technically for handicap purposes. For the laser device, the slope feature can be activated before or after a tournament round for practice or measuring distance for a yardage book, but can be deactivated during the round. With the GX-4, they've made it so overt that a player would have to go extreme measures to use the feature during a round of play.

In either case, it involves a feature that is not allowed to be used during a round of golf (Tournament or Handicap). If the feature can be deactivated on the laser device for use in a tournament or handicap round, then it should fall under the same rules as clubs that have adjustability features.

[golf_fanatik]

What adjustments would make a club, say a driver, illegal? You can switch lofts, lies and shafts. All of which are legal to play.. the only limitation is that you can't make the changes during a round.

With the GX-4 is different though because it has a feature that is illegal (slope readings with yellow plate on).

Agree that the rule is rigid but I think your example is not exactly an apples to apples comparison like someone else said.

[DaveLeeNC]

That is only kind of the case. A driver head with a threaded hosel would certainly accomodate a shaft that would make the club illegally long. Or a similar putterhead could be reshafted with a shaft that would create an illegal lie angle. And it is certainly simple to add enough weight to violate the MOI limits (heck, you could always just add enough lead tape to do that anytime during a round).

I don't know if this was the logic behind the ruling or not, but it still seems wrong and inconsistent with other equipment rulings (IMHO).

dave

[golf_fanatik]

We are talking conforming components of adjustable clubs. My point is addressing adjustability not all the realm of possibilities that could make a club nonconforming.

I disagree with the ruling but at a minimum it seems consistent with the position they have taken with regards to smartphones being used as GPS.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='golf_fanatik' timestamp='1288650305' post='2769436']

We are talking conforming components of adjustable clubs. My point is addressing adjustability not all the realm of possibilities that could make a club nonconforming.

I disagree with the ruling but at a minimum it seems consistent with the position they have taken with regards to smartphones being used as GPS.
[/quote]

All of the examples address adjustable clubs (things that could be done to a golf club during a round). OK - 2 of them require an extra shaft, but the other 2 require simple parts that are no different than 'the yellow thing' on a GX-4.

dave

[golf_fanatik]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1288650928' post='2769452']
[quote name='golf_fanatik' timestamp='1288650305' post='2769436']
We are talking conforming components of adjustable clubs. My point is addressing adjustability not all the realm of possibilities that could make a club nonconforming.

I disagree with the ruling but at a minimum it seems consistent with the position they have taken with regards to smartphones being used as GPS.
[/quote]

All of the examples address adjustable clubs (things that could be done to a golf club during a round). OK - 2 of them require an extra shaft, but the other 2 require simple parts that are no different than 'the yellow thing' on a GX-4.

dave
[/quote]
The difference is that the yellow cap is "nonconforming" so it is not the same as using a shaft or another component that is part of conforming club. You cannot compare a stock TM shaft part of a R9 with the yellow cap. Conforming vs nonconforming.

Same thing with using iphone as GPS because it can measure wind, weather, green slopes, etc.

[Skaffa77]

You make a good point and I understand how it can be like comparing apples and oranges.

The ability to change shafts, face angle, loft, weighting doesn't deem the actual club illegal, just the use of that feature during a round. The point of my argument is the [u]use of the feature[/u] during a round of golf is what makes the equipment illegal. If you don't utilize that feature during a round, you essentially have equipment that behaves like other non-adjustable clubs and it comforms to the rules. A player ultimately chooses not to utilize this feature on a driver, woods, wedge or clubs during the round of golf to comply with the rules.

The GX-4 has a feature (slope measure) which is illegal for use during a round. If that feature is deactivated, then the laser range finder behaves just like a range finder device which does conform to the rules. Again, a player can ultimately choose not to utilize this slope function (deactivate it) during the round and the device would technically operate and function just like a device that is within the rules.

[MCCA]

[quote name='King Kobra' timestamp='1288245485' post='2762948']
GX-4 is illegal but when the silver face is on, you're the only one who really knows.
[/quote]


Not true in my club championship this past August in our 4some there where 2 guys that had GPS's myself and another guy that had a laser. mine is a busnell Tour V2 the other guy had the Leupold GX-4. Our Pro was on the tee for each match he asked on the tee who is using GPS's or rangefinders? he asked to see all of them. He toldl the guy with the GX-4 he could not use it. when asked why pro told him flat out it has slope feature the guy said i can take this plate off and slope will not be used. Pro said sorry no dice either give the unit to me or withdraw, he gave it up.

[DaveLeeNC]

What is the difference between taking a piece of equipment with no non-conforming functionality and changing a piece of it such that it suddenly has non-conforming functionality, and taking a driver that has no non-conforming functionality (MOI of 5900 or whatever the limit is) and chainging a piece such that it suddenly has non-conforming functionality (MOI exceedes the limit)?

dave

[Body_Visions]

It is a nitpicky rule that does not go with the spirit of golf in my opinion. Golf is supposed to be a game of honor. I say I won't use my Busnell or Leupold slope during play. You say that you won't adjust the loft of your driver from 10.5 to 7.5 on that hole that is straight into the wind. It basically would be a self-policing rule either way.

What is the difference?

At least the Leupold should be legal for tournament play, as you can completely take the function off.

[SpongeBob]

I understand the point that you're making and I concur. Your example makes perfect sense insofar as a decision is made by the player not to adjust the adjustable club during the round in the same manner as the player making a decision to not use the illegal slope functionality by changing to a highly visible yellow faceplate during the round.

The fact that the adjustable club has the potential to be illegally changed in round is, in my mind, the same as the GX-4 having the potential to be changed from conforming to non-conforming. The player has to make a conscious decision to violate the rules for the equipment in question to change to an illegal state, yet the club is allowed while the device is not.

Must be a much stronger club lobby than RF lobby in the halls of USGA/R&A.

[Body_Visions]

[quote name='SpongeBob' timestamp='1288652876' post='2769497']
I understand the point that you're making and I concur. Your example makes perfect sense insofar as a decision is made by the player not to adjust the adjustable club during the round in the same manner as the player making a decision to not use the illegal slope functionality by changing to a highly visible yellow faceplate during the round.

[u]The fact that the adjustable club has the potential to be illegally changed in round is, in my mind, the same as the GX-4 having the potential to be changed from conforming to non-conforming. The player has to make a conscious decision to violate the rules for the equipment in question to change to an illegal state, yet the club is allowed while the device is not.[/u]


[b][u]Must be a much stronger club lobby than RF lobby in the halls of USGA/R&A[/u].[/b][/quote]

We have a winner!!

[golf_fanatik]

[quote name='SpongeBob' timestamp='1288652876' post='2769497']
I understand the point that you're making and I concur. Your example makes perfect sense insofar as a decision is made by the player not to adjust the adjustable club during the round in the same manner as the player making a decision to not use the illegal slope functionality by changing to a highly visible yellow faceplate during the round.

[u]The fact that the adjustable club has the potential to be illegally changed in round is, in my mind, the same as the GX-4 having the potential to be changed from conforming to non-conforming. The player has to make a conscious decision to violate the rules for the equipment in question to change to an illegal state, yet the club is allowed while the device is not.[/u]

Must be a much stronger club lobby than RF lobby in the halls of USGA/R&A.
[/quote]

Except that the GX-4, in any configuration, is illegal. It cannot be changed from legal to illegal as you describe since even with the chrome plate is nonconforming. For rule purposes, the GX-4 is the same as the V2 slope.. nonconforming. As someone else above mentioned, just the mere use of the GX-4 is, unfortunately, is against the rules for tournaments and handicap rounds.

It is unfortunate though because I really like the GX-3/4 units.

[Big Ben]

[quote name='Body_Visions' timestamp='1288652624' post='2769490']
It is a nitpicky rule that does not go with the spirit of golf in my opinion. Golf is supposed to be a game of honor. I say I won't use my Busnell or Leupold slope during play. You say that you won't adjust the loft of your driver from 10.5 to 7.5 on that hole that is straight into the wind. It basically would be a self-policing rule either way.

What is the difference?

At least the Leupold should be legal for tournament play, as you can completely take the function off.
[/quote]
Well said...BB

[Body_Visions]

[quote name='golf_fanatik' timestamp='1288657391' post='2769585']
[quote name='SpongeBob' timestamp='1288652876' post='2769497']
I understand the point that you're making and I concur. Your example makes perfect sense insofar as a decision is made by the player not to adjust the adjustable club during the round in the same manner as the player making a decision to not use the illegal slope functionality by changing to a highly visible yellow faceplate during the round.

[u]The fact that the adjustable club has the potential to be illegally changed in round is, in my mind, the same as the GX-4 having the potential to be changed from conforming to non-conforming. The player has to make a conscious decision to violate the rules for the equipment in question to change to an illegal state, yet the club is allowed while the device is not.[/u]

Must be a much stronger club lobby than RF lobby in the halls of USGA/R&A.
[/quote]

[b][u]Except that the GX-4, in any configuration, is illegal[/u].[/b] It cannot be changed from legal to illegal as you describe since even with the chrome plate is nonconforming. For rule purposes, the GX-4 is the same as the V2 slope.. nonconforming. As someone else above mentioned, just the mere use of the GX-4 is, unfortunately, is against the rules for tournaments and handicap rounds.

It is unfortunate though because I really like the GX-3/4 units.
[/quote]

That is my point. Why? You can make it impossible to measure slope by taking the yellow face off. Why not let my play with it?

Of course, I have always thought it was stupid to not allow us to use the Bushnell (or any other brand) with slope. The USGA trusts me to play the correct ball out of a water hazard, call a penalty on myself if my ball moves and no one else sees, but I can't be trusted not to turn the slope on my rangefinder when my partners are looking away.

[Skaffa77]

[quote name='golf_fanatik' timestamp='1288657391' post='2769585']
[quote name='SpongeBob' timestamp='1288652876' post='2769497']
I understand the point that you're making and I concur. Your example makes perfect sense insofar as a decision is made by the player not to adjust the adjustable club during the round in the same manner as the player making a decision to not use the illegal slope functionality by changing to a highly visible yellow faceplate during the round.

[u]The fact that the adjustable club has the potential to be illegally changed in round is, in my mind, the same as the GX-4 having the potential to be changed from conforming to non-conforming. The player has to make a conscious decision to violate the rules for the equipment in question to change to an illegal state, yet the club is allowed while the device is not.[/u]

Must be a much stronger club lobby than RF lobby in the halls of USGA/R&A.
[/quote]

Except that the GX-4, in any configuration, is illegal. It cannot be changed from legal to illegal as you describe since even with the chrome plate is nonconforming. For rule purposes, the GX-4 is the same as the V2 slope.. nonconforming. As someone else above mentioned, just the mere use of the GX-4 is, unfortunately, is against the rules for tournaments and handicap rounds.

It is unfortunate though because I really like the GX-3/4 units.
[/quote]

I appreciate the fact that you actually like the Leupolds and are arguing a valid point. As you pointed out, the governing body have deemed the device illegal regardless of the configuration or settings. The question is...why would they deem the entire device illegal if it can be configured in a manner to be used within the rules?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Taylormade's xFT wedge legal for tournament play as long as the configuration has conforming grooves? One could argue that Taylormade's xFT wedge with a changeable face can be configured with grooves that make the entire club illegal, but if the golfer configures it with conforming grooves, the club is then deemed legal for tournament play.

This would be an example of golf equipment that can be configured either way at the discretion of the golfer and yet with the proper configuration conforms to the rules and is legal for tournament play. To me, that would be inconsistent with how they've approached the ruling on laser range finders with slope measurement that can be deactivated.

[golowgolfer]

Bottom Line is the USGA made the ruling partly to get State Golf Associations down to the Pro running a Club Championship out of the role as police officer! The original ruling from the USGA on measuring devices allowed the slope feature but it had to be turned off for Tournament play, State golf associations went crazy and complained which forced the USGA to modify its ruling. Just remember that common sense doess not apply when it comes to the USGA!

[dpb5031]

[quote name='TMBob' timestamp='1288109899' post='2760160']
Looking at a new range finder and I had a few questions about this brand and model.

It seems that this unit should be legal for play until you snap on the yellow face plate.......true or not?

Any other thoughts on their products?
[/quote]

Save your money and get the legal GX-3 model. I think it is the best laser range finder on the market. It is the perfect size, super fast to lock onto target, accurate, has an easy to read display and feels great in your hand. It is a very high quality and well-engineered device.

[TMBob]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1288665194' post='2769817']
[quote name='TMBob' timestamp='1288109899' post='2760160']
Looking at a new range finder and I had a few questions about this brand and model.

It seems that this unit should be legal for play until you snap on the yellow face plate.......true or not?

Any other thoughts on their products?
[/quote]

Save your money and get the legal GX-3 model. I think it is the best laser range finder on the market. It is the perfect size, super fast to lock onto target, accurate, has an easy to read display and feels great in your hand. It is a very high quality and well-engineered device.
[/quote]

I love all the talk about what should be legal or not. It's to bad that this unit is or others like it (there is none that I know of) is not legal, because from a consumers stand point I want a Range finder that I can go a get my yardage with slope in everyday rounds, or practice rounds and then be able to use it without the slope during tourney days with some notes on were the slope effected distance the most on the course. Basically, it would be nice to own just one range finder to do two jobs even though one of those jobs is used much less then the other.

Thanks for the info on the GX-3 model.....I need a new one and have shop credit and a RF seems to be the best item for me to buy with it.

[BlkNGld]

I thought Leupold's solution was well thought out.

That said I suspect the USGA's position was that there was no way to definitively turn off the function. Yes, the different faceplates should be a giveaway, but we all know that if this were to take off there would be a cottage industry where someone would commission a factory in the far east to crank out a few thousand legal looking faceplates that would in face enable the slope function.

Personally I disagree with the rule, given that there is not stopping someone from walking the course with a slope model and learning how many clubs to add. Anyone that doesn't think pro caddies are walking the course with these things and marking up their yardage books accordingly?

The issue I have with it being illegal is that in this case the rules do nothing to eliminate the use of the technology, it's just a restriction on when the technology can be employed. They're taking the same position on this that they initially took to distance measuring devices in general, and I don't see the difference.