Playing Hickory Golf

[Jiggered]

Played in the BGCS President's Day event at Royal Liverpool on Friday.

Started with 11 holes of informal practice in the morning where I didn't make the most auspicious of starts.

 

I'd never swung a club wearing a jacket before, on the first tee with the starter and three chaps I'd only just met that morning, I took a few practice swings and thought "this jacket feels a bit restrictive, I'll just try and make a smooth swing", scuffed the ball low and onto the practice green in front of the clubhouse where it was deflected by a chap who turned out to be my partner for the afternoon foursomes!

 

Luckily things improved over the subsequent holes and I was playing quite nicely when we went in for lunch.

 

The afternoon foursomes Stableford had an even poorer start. My partner, seemingly unaffected by my morning tee shot causing him to jump for cover, hit a nice shot up the right side of the first and I then had a shot over the corner of the practice ground which was out of bounds, I took my mashie niblick to be sure of getting the ball over a low bank but bladed it into the bank where it popped into the air and landed on the practice ground. Partner hit a good shot for our fourth and left me with a simple chip to the green, which I duffed 6 inches....

 

Neither of us played well going out and we only scored on one hole over the first 5 holes and turned with 8 points. Better on the back nine where we scored 15 points for 23 total.

 

A very enjoyable day in good company and the course was superb.

[majic]

Stix I used as my reference the 1998 Journal of the Kinghorn Historical Society history of Wm Gibson Co.

On July 14th 1921 Wm Gibson passed. He had just organized a big tournament in Kinghorn prior to the Open. All the best players were there because the purse was 200 pounds while the Open was 225 pounds a large sum then. Hagen played.

The records show George, Williams son instead of taking over went south to become secretary of the Professional Golfers Cooperative Assn. Several people served as head until T. Cochrane took over. He served during trying times for the company as sales slowed and some attributed this to Gibsons continued resistance to steel shafts. In July of 1933 there is comments of Hagen spending time at the factory. In 1935 T Cochrane gave a good watch to James Gibson for 33 years of service.

I am sure from this and other things I have read T Cochrane took over in a year or two but was not a great production manager. The company dearly missed Wm Gibson and his energetic and golf knowledge.

It would also seem that Gibson would have made the Cochrane clubs.

I think also that the Gibson/Cochrane friendship goes back to when Gibson was in Edinburgh in the 1800's. Gibson then I am sure made the short hosel, bore through iron heads of Carruthers.

 

[stixman]

Brilliant, thanks. That fills in the gaps for me, and puts meat on the bone.

 

I was having another look at a Gibson niblick, the brand name is Playsir. If I recall it was one you hadn't come across. It is also branded 'Compact Blade', which has Hagen pedigree, and the same later Star with the G inside.

I always liked the shape of the head, particularly the rolled flange. Now I see also the shape of the base of the sole has the same shape as Hagens later Contour sole, a sort of oval shape but without the bounce. I only ever saw the niblick in this set, 2 of them actually, no other clubs. I think it one of the prettiest hickories I ever saw, and playable as well.

 

Did Randy's club have the Danga Wood shaft?

[majic]

Brilliant, thanks. That fills in the gaps for me, and puts meat on the bone.

 

I was having another look at a Gibson niblick, the brand name is Playsir. If I recall it was one you hadn't come across. It is also branded 'Compact Blade', which has Hagen pedigree, and the same later Star with the G inside.

I always liked the shape of the head, particularly the rolled flange. Now I see also the shape of the base of the sole has the same shape as Hagens later Contour sole, a sort of oval shape but without the bounce. I only ever saw the niblick in this set, 2 of them actually, no other clubs. I think it one of the prettiest hickories I ever saw, and playable as well.

 

Did Randy's club have the Danga Wood shaft?

Yes. I think most niblicks and many many putters had that shaft.

[BIG STU]

Ok guys I have sorta gotten my feet wet in the hickory world. A few weeks ago I met a fellow from Charleston SC who played a mixed bag so to speak. He had modern Mizuno blade irons and a modern driver but carried 4 Hickory clubs. Just so happened I was practicing that day with my 52 Mac Toski irons and persimmon woods. A mutual friend introduced us. We had a blast on the range. He also putted with a hickory shafted "Calamity Jane" style putter. He filled me in some on Hickory and I hit his stuff some and was intrigued to say the least

 

Well Sunday afternoon our mechanic at work texted me and stated he found 2 wooden shafted golf clubs and did I want them? Hell yes I told him. Told my wife I was not too optimistic they were probably pyratone because this guy does not play golf and knows nothing about the game. Well I was wrong they are Hickory shafted rusty as heck. But they have the original grips and I used leather conditioner and they seem in good shape. I did manage to knock a little rust off of one to identify it as a Macgregor Mashie Niblick. I have them in Coke soak now. I was cleaning the one up and told the wife I will be dammed it is a Macgregor. She told me that was not surprising because somehow Macgregor clubs always seem to find me. I have read enough over the years on here to know to pull them apart and reglue them etc. The shafts are in great shape and are straight. I am looking forward to working on them and hitting them. I will post pics when I clean them up and maybe you guys can help identify them

[jbucher]

Bravo Stu!!!! welcome to the club. It is quite the feeling hitting them.

JB

[Blade Junkie]

Good day at The Buckinghamshire Club yesterday.

 

Rymer Smith, who has been best amateur at the World Hickory Open a couple of times, won the scratch with a good round of +4 (he's still recovering from wrist surgery and is not supposed to be playing golf for another 6 weeks!)

 

We played off normal steel handicaps so the stableford scores were a little lower than usual, but Joe Smith Junior had 34 points to win that division. This little lad is 11 years old and plays off 29, but remember the name as he'll be very good one day. Great swing for hickory and a wise head on those young shoulders as well. Chris and I both played with him and were very impressed! Chris had a very respectable 31 points (I think that was 3rd, maybe 2nd, but he was in the prizes anyway). My round was patchy with some good shots outweighed by a higher number of bad ones and 28 points overall. 8 pars no birdies. I did at least tie Chris on the shank count at one each :)

 

Joe Smith senior did a great job at organising this event, and unfortunately got badly let down by 17 overnight cancellations, so we ended up at 20 in the field. His efforts are deserving of a much bigger field for next year. Several items were auctioned off for charity, raising £1400, with the best prize probably a 4-ball at Foxhills Golf Club in Surrey, hosted by ex-Chelsea, Manchester United, AC Milan and England footballer Ray Wilkins, who was celebrity guest of the day. I actually had a photo of him on my wall when I was a football-mad 8 year old - always nice to meet your heros in the flesh !

[BIG STU]

Bravo Stu!!!! welcome to the club. It is quite the feeling hitting them.

JB

Thanks Jimmy-- It was a blast hitting the ones he had-- He had schooled me some on being smooth with them--- I am anxious to hit mine after I check them out and work them over some

[majic]

Two new clubs from TadvMoore Hickory Classics. The WH-Walter Hagen niblick is a reproduction of Randy Jensen's personal player. A great club. The original clubs are almost impossible to find. In stock. The putter is a reproduction of My J H Taylor Eskit. Great putter

[rwc356]

Beautiful clubs Tad!

[scomac2002]

One day... :golfer:

 

A bucket list item me thinks!

[Blade Junkie]

Have you got pic of the Niblick in the address position please Tad ?

[majic]

Here it is

[majic]

Randy's club was 56 by 12 degrees bounce and also had the WH slightly convex face. Pretty cool we could reproduce all of this.

[Jiggered]

I've got a query on a hickory shaft.

 

I recently won a Gibson mashie on ebay and while restoring it I noticed a small Gibson start on the shaft, I'd assumed that Gibson were a head forger only and didn't supply finished irons?

The head is stamped "Stella MASHIE" and also has "George Plum & Co. Bristol" on it.

(I did a quick Google and found a reference to a cut throat razor with a George Plum Bristol stamp)

 

I'm thinking that maybe George Plum and Co were a retailer rather than a club maker and might have bought finished clubs from Gibson, would this be the case?

[majic]

There was a time when Gibson was the largest maker of golf clubs in the World. They supplied both heads as well as finished clubs. Their shafts were known as some of the finest. They were marked with a star, 2 Star and ultra premium 3 Star. Most clubs are marked with a single star. They also used two special woods the Danga Wood and the wood Sidera. Sidera was used in Ladies and Senior clubs.

[Jiggered]

Thanks Tad, there's so much to learn once you open the door into hickory golf!

[Jiggered]

And another question!

 

I recently won a niblick on ebay, the main attraction of it being what looked like a reasonable sized sole.

 

Received today and while the sole is a fair size at 5/8", it has a negative bounce of about 1 or 2 degrees, anything else would have been too good to be true I guess.

 

I know that this can be altered slightly by changing the loft but as it's around 52/54 degrees at the moment there's not very far I can take this so my question is, is it feasible to grind the sole some to create more bounce?

This will reduce the head weight but it's a decent weight anyway (swingweight around E7 before re-grip).

 

 

As an aside for anyone interested, I also received today an Anderson & Blyth brassie with a swingweight of around C0 (before re-grip) and a length of 42 1/4 inches so hopefully this will be a good tee club!

[ebeer]

I've experimented with this. Yes you can bend the club to add more loft and thus expose some bounce, but at 54* you don't have much room and I think it takes a fair amount of tweaking to get the bounce you want. I've also done the grinding thing. Problem here is you remove a ton of weight (although plenty of room in your case, E7 way too heavy for me). The result ends up being a much narrower sole with a bit of manufactured bounce. I think sole bounce is more important that sole width if you're looking for a bunker tool.

 

Another option is to embrace hickory golf for what it was, not necessarily for what it can be with modern design concepts applied. A negative bounce digger can be quite effective for bunker play, you just have to adjust your approach a bit. That said, I make an effort to to find niblicks with neutral bounce. Any bounce that is more that negative is a good thing for me and enough to be a playable fairway and sand club.

 

Here's an interesting article that discusses bending. Politics aside (play what ya like and have fun) it's informative and shows you some options. If you go the bending route, I'd look for a lower lofted niblick to start with....otherwise you'll have a 62* lob wedge ;)

 

http://auldgolfsociety.com/maxwell-niblicks-auld-mac/

[Jiggered]

Thanks ebeer, I like where you're leading with that article, the "auld" route is definitely the way I'd prefer to go rather than create a hickory version of today's clubs.

 

Pics of the club I have are below, not as much sole as the Maxwell in the article (and I'd guess it's around 2 to 4 degrees negative bounce) but enough to create some bounce by opening the club up.

 

I'll do a proper loft check soon and then maybe I'll tweak it to nearer zero bounce if the club can take it.

 

 

[Blade Junkie]

Nick

 

Have a look at this video of Bobby Jones showing the art of bunker play with one of these skinny Niblicks ...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOK0FTPmFU8

 

Note the truncated follow through. Different technique to a modern bunker shot :)

 

As you can see in the video, Bobby was rather good with a Niblick out of the sand .. it can certainly be done !

 

 

And while we are at it, here's his take on chip shots

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25EsLlNSHY0

[Jiggered]

Thanks Geoff, he makes it look so relaxed and easy, he obviously doesn't carry the scars and demons that I do!

[ebeer]

Jiggered that looks like a player to me. I love Cochrane clubs, one of the best cleekmarks ever! Yeah it may be negative, but only slight so. And that big wide sole is a bonus. Here are few niblicks. The first is from my playset, it's a gamer. 54* fits my game good enough that it's now the only niblick I carry. It's capable in the sand, and cover everything from 120yds in (even the occasional flop shot if I'm feeling frisky). I call it neutral by the naked eye, and the sole thick enough but certainly not wide when compared to my MacGregor OA flanged model. The second is a George Nicoll...probably 56*. The sole is much narrower and leading edge is like a razor, but again a fairly neutral bounce. Even with the narrow sole it's a capable bunker player. I think you've got a real gem in that Cochrane.

 

 

 

 

[Jiggered]

Thanks ebeer, that's very encouraging to hear!

Can't wait to get started on re-seating the head and giving it an on-course trial now.

[majic]

Jiggered you will find that the method of playing the shot is sometimes the shot in hickory golf. For example I love to hit on firm fairways a " toe shot" tee shot to get a hook and some roll. Another is your Texas wedge putter s*** from 30 yards or a Driving Iron punched low to cut through the wind. The issue of niblicks is more a matter of what is available to you. Wider flanged clubs are newer and more expensive. I played a 54 degree for 15 years before I found my first Gibson wide flanged club in Scotland. It was also 54 degrees.

By the way one of the iconic modern sand wedges when measured the Eye2 was around 54 as played

Bounce is good for our modern clubs, courses, sand maintenance and the way we have to play bunker shots. The playing from the sand in the early days was from very firm heavier sand and bounce was not good.

Take your club and get in a bunker and practice technique. It will work fine. You will find your shot.

Keep looking for one of the great niblicks from the later years. They pop up sometimes at a fair price. They always retain value unlike something you pay big money for today.

[Jiggered]

Thanks Tad, I appreciate your learned advice.

It's this aspect of hickory golf that's so appealing.

[jonnygrouville]

Something I have found useful is really weakening my left hand grip. Works on lob shots with normal clubs and niblicks from the sand. Mess around with it. You can get your palm nearly facing the sky and get right under the ball.

 

[scomac2002]

Something I have found useful is really weakening my left hand grip. Works on lob shots with normal clubs and niblicks from the sand. Mess around with it. You can get your palm nearly facing the sky and get right under the ball.

 

I'm trying to visualize this jonny and all I get is a cac-handed grip unless of course you are lefthanded.

 

I try and thump the ball out of the sand. In order to do that I open the club face and strengthen my grip such that my right palm is facing skyward and then smack the club into the sand underneath the ball with no release almost like a chopping action.

[jonnygrouville]

Opposite of your strong grip approach. Leave your right hand where it is and start moving your left hand more under the grip until all your knuckles disappear from view.

 

Without the bounce this is more of a clip shot, not the big explosion. Key to keep the right elbow moving...

 

[scomac2002]

Opposite of your strong grip approach. Leave your right hand where it is and start moving your left hand more under the grip until all your knuckles disappear from view.

 

Without the bounce this is more of a clip shot, not the big explosion. Key to keep the right elbow moving...

 

By this description above I think that we're doing pretty much the same thing. I like your description of a clip shot. Regardless of tools I have found that to be more reliable that the explosion. I think that I came to it by practicing flop shots from a variety of lies with the drill objective of getting the ball to go up and over a hydro line that I was more or less standing underneath of.