Belly/broomstick/long putter legal, anchoring not...

[Peter K.]

[quote name='phil75070' timestamp='1329329053' post='4291531']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1329327289' post='4291353']
Oh, I forgot to add, Glen Nager also confirmed that the USGA is opposed to any bifurcation.
[/quote]

Then how do they explain how the groove rule is being implemented or does that somehow not fit the definition of bifurcation because ultimately (supposedly) even amateurs will have to comply in 2024?
[/quote]

I agree with your question, phil; it is awfully semantic how they refer to the current groove situation as NOT bifurcated. In general, I feel that Glen Nager's comments are somewhat disappointing; until now, I felt that some sort of official stated opinion, if not an actual decision, was imminent. Now, it seems like they are lining up a bunch of excuses for not doing anything in the near future.

On the plus side, based on their view of what does and does not constitute birfurcation, maybe some solution, which bans belly and long putters for the pros, but allows them for amateurs is still possible.

[nbg352]

[quote name='Peter K.' timestamp='1329360260' post='4295217']
[quote name='phil75070' timestamp='1329329053' post='4291531']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1329327289' post='4291353']
Oh, I forgot to add, Glen Nager also confirmed that the USGA is opposed to any bifurcation.
[/quote]

Then how do they explain how the groove rule is being implemented or does that somehow not fit the definition of bifurcation because ultimately (supposedly) even amateurs will have to comply in 2024?
[/quote]

I agree with your question, phil; it is awfully semantic how they refer to the current groove situation as NOT bifurcated. In general, I feel that Glen Nager's comments are somewhat disappointing; until now, I felt that some sort of official stated opinion, if not an actual decision, was imminent. Now, it seems like they are lining up a bunch of excuses for not doing anything in the near future.

On the plus side, based on their view of what does and does not constitute birfurcation, maybe some solution, which bans belly and long putters for the pros, but allows them for amateurs is still possible.
[/quote]

I think I answered this a little ways back, Peter. Temporary bifurcation in this particular instance, with reason.

[nbg352]

[quote name='Peter K.' timestamp='1329360260' post='4295217']
[quote name='phil75070' timestamp='1329329053' post='4291531']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1329327289' post='4291353']
Oh, I forgot to add, Glen Nager also confirmed that the USGA is opposed to any bifurcation.
[/quote]

Then how do they explain how the groove rule is being implemented or does that somehow not fit the definition of bifurcation because ultimately (supposedly) even amateurs will have to comply in 2024?
[/quote]

I agree with your question, phil; it is awfully semantic how they refer to the current groove situation as NOT bifurcated. In general, I feel that Glen Nager's comments are somewhat disappointing; until now, I felt that some sort of official stated opinion, if not an actual decision, was imminent. Now, it seems like they are lining up a bunch of excuses for not doing anything in the near future.

On the plus side, based on their view of what does and does not constitute birfurcation, maybe some solution, which bans belly and long putters for the pros, but allows them for amateurs is still possible.
[/quote]

Peter, Glen Nager is opposed to bifurcation, not for it. Read my post regarding the grooves issue. In the near future, the rules regarding grooves will affect us all, equally.

[3_Jack_Par]

[quote name='idriveahonda' timestamp='1329344591' post='4293399']
That was in regards to a lot of the old R series TaylorMades (510TP especially).

It was a broad statement. It's just funny that some of the stuff people say has no warrant.

My information regarding "GOOD" drivers was outdated, but still applies up-to just a couple years ago.
[/quote]

First, only one particular type of R510 TP is non-conforming -- do you know that this is the one people were using and claiming it as the holy grail of drivers, or were they just using the legal version of it (the one with the scoring lines in the center)? Second, what facts do you have to back up that "probably a GOOD majority of those opposed to the anchoring of the belly putter, are playing illegal drivers per the CC rules"? This seems like a pretty tenuous argument.

For the record, I'm indifferent as to whether anchoring should be legal. I'm just against the use of strawmen in arguments.

[Peter K.]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1329377344' post='4297657']
I think I answered this a little ways back, Peter. Temporary bifurcation in this particular instance, with reason.
[/quote]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1329377618' post='4297669']
Peter, Glen Nager is opposed to bifurcation, not for it. Read my post regarding the grooves issue. In the near future, the rules regarding grooves will affect us all, equally.
[/quote]

Warren,

I did read your post(s), but I just don't agree that the groove rule's status "counts" as temporary and/or not bifurcation. IMO, 2024 isn't really the "near" future; I've stocked up on wedges and will be legally posting handicap scores while using them for many years to come. Many others, however, will have to use CC wedges because they didn't stock up (or wanted to play CC/couldn't stock up/whatever). Of course, the professionals and all others participating in tournaments, which apply the CoC, also have to use CC wedges. Geez, it's really TRI-furcation! (j/k)

Regarding Mr. Nager's feelings about bifurcation, I fully understood that; I was saying that since he doesn't consider the groove rule bifurcated, that he might still be able to live with some sort of ban that "looks like" bifurcation to some/many/most.

[nbg352]

[quote name='Peter K.' timestamp='1329445578' post='4304741']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1329377344' post='4297657']
I think I answered this a little ways back, Peter. Temporary bifurcation in this particular instance, with reason.
[/quote]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1329377618' post='4297669']
Peter, Glen Nager is opposed to bifurcation, not for it. Read my post regarding the grooves issue. In the near future, the rules regarding grooves will affect us all, equally.
[/quote]

Warren,

I did read your post(s), but I just don't agree that the groove rule's status "counts" as temporary and/or not bifurcation. IMO, 2024 isn't really the "near" future; I've stocked up on wedges and will be legally posting handicap scores while using them for many years to come. Many others, however, will have to use CC wedges because they didn't stock up (or wanted to play CC/couldn't stock up/whatever). Of course, the professionals and all others participating in tournaments, which apply the CoC, also have to use CC wedges. Geez, it's really TRI-furcation! (j/k)
Regarding Mr. Nager's feelings about bifurcation, I fully understood that; I was saying that since he doesn't consider the groove rule bifurcated, that he might still be able to live with some sort of ban that "looks like" bifurcation to some/many/most.
[/quote]
Peter, I'm not sure that the average ( count me in) amateur is able to stock up on non-conforming but still legal wedges. But, I hear ya, buddy, I hear ya. I just hope that the amateurs you play with in a couple of years, you know the ones that have to have the latest in marketing.....Vokey era 2014, par example, don't look at you in too odd a way as you set up to your 2011 Cleveland CG15's....especially since it's well known by the USGA, that those CG15's provide you, you amateur you, with little or no apparent advantage. I'm not poking fun, I just think that the USGA knows that the amateur sector of golf will self regulate, in order to mirror the professional sector. Ergo, no bifurcation. This wouldn't be the first time that peer pressure was applied to make sure that compliance to the new norm was achieved almost seamlessly.

[Peter K.]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1329455454' post='4306051']

Peter, I'm not sure that the average ( count me in) amateur is able to stock up on non-conforming but still legal wedges. But, I hear ya, buddy, I hear ya. I just hope that the amateurs you play with in a couple of years, you know the ones that have to have the latest in marketing.....Vokey era 2014, par example, don't look at you in too odd a way as you set up to your 2011 Cleveland CG15's....especially since it's well known by the USGA, that those CG15's provide you, you amateur you, with little or no apparent advantage. I'm not poking fun, I just think that the USGA knows that the amateur sector of golf will self regulate, in order to mirror the professional sector. Ergo, no bifurcation. This wouldn't be the first time that peer pressure was applied to make sure that compliance to the new norm was achieved almost seamlessly.
[/quote]

Warren,

You are a true gentleman; thanks for keeping it civil and allowing yourself to see the ground common to us, while right in the middle of discussing an issue, of which we seem to be at opposite ends. And I agree that I may be the one called "cheater" and the like someday; I just hate how the groove rule was implemented, start to finish, ideologically to technologically.

Maybe I'll become a good enough golfer someday to be required to use CC wedges, then I'll sell my stash to the highest bidder(s).

[nbg352]

[quote name='Peter K.' timestamp='1329584053' post='4316725']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1329455454' post='4306051']
Peter, I'm not sure that the average ( count me in) amateur is able to stock up on non-conforming but still legal wedges. But, I hear ya, buddy, I hear ya. I just hope that the amateurs you play with in a couple of years, you know the ones that have to have the latest in marketing.....Vokey era 2014, par example, don't look at you in too odd a way as you set up to your 2011 Cleveland CG15's....especially since it's well known by the USGA, that those CG15's provide you, you amateur you, with little or no apparent advantage. I'm not poking fun, I just think that the USGA knows that the amateur sector of golf will self regulate, in order to mirror the professional sector. Ergo, no bifurcation. This wouldn't be the first time that peer pressure was applied to make sure that compliance to the new norm was achieved almost seamlessly.
[/quote]

Warren,

You are a true gentleman; thanks for keeping it civil and allowing yourself to see the ground common to us, while right in the middle of discussing an issue, of which we seem to be at opposite ends. And I agree that I may be the one called "cheater" and the like someday; I just hate how the groove rule was implemented, start to finish, ideologically to technologically.

Maybe I'll become a good enough golfer someday to be required to use CC wedges, then I'll sell my stash to the highest bidder(s).
[/quote]
....
Peter, no-one can call you a cheater for using conforming, non-conforming tools. At least not until they become simply non-conforming.
Sigh..... This no bifurcation thing has me confused......

[nuhusky41]

[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1328562905' post='4224837']
[quote name='Breaker999' timestamp='1328562481' post='4224783']
[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1328562154' post='4224737']
Why bifurcation? It's the same game is it not? Just different levels of play. One set of rules should cover the game at any level. Just like every other sport out there.
[/quote]

No. Wooden bats and aluminum bats in baseball.
[/quote]
Are they swung in a different manner?
[/quote]

As someone who knows baseball, Yes, they are swung differently. You don't have to have as good of swing mechanics to swing an aluminum bat. It covers very many flaws in a swing.

[jmygolf]

I have found this also. I still find that it isnt automatic to take a long or belly putter HEAD back on a straight, consistent path because it is still a hands controlled stroke, for some. I think that it will come down to the argument that it is an advantage to some, not all. That is just one issue with the USGA's problems in trying to ban them.
BUT I HAVE A QUESTION - help me out there. I think of the bifurcation question, and I know one of the USGA problems with allowing both rules is that it is very difficult to enforce compared to other sports (different size balls in basketball and soccer, 3 pt lines, soccer net sizes, etc). They feel the different tees gives enough difference on every course. Granted this is a limited argument.
BUT AGAIN HELP. What other sport out there has rules on HOW you perform the task at hand? I am asking a legit question because I dont know. You are allowed to hit a return in tennis between your legs, and that doesnt seem to be natural (esp for us guys! OUCH). But do other sports have rules on HOW you swing or throw or pass or whatever? Golf is the only one I know of but I think that is an important distinction if we are going to compare with other sports. Do they mandate TECHNIQUE? I'd like to know from people who really know the other rules. The equipment and playing fields and rules of play are mandated, but technique?
Logically, the side saddle putting style seems a huge advantage cuz you are facing the target and moving your arm along your side directly toward the target. If more people used that, wouldnt that be banned? Yes, the USGA has discussed this for many years, but I know for a fact through their testing center staff that it was not a priority at all, at least as of 2009. So why now? Same reason as why Snead's style became a big deal quickly. It got success and attention. That is why the USGA is looking at it now.
I personally have an issue with banning technique. If it is open to everyone to try, then it is a personal decision. Is it against the spirit of the game? I am not sure. That line has been blurred for decades now.



[quote name='indyvai' timestamp='1328575017' post='4226367']
Taking the hands out is a bit of a overstatement. You still grip the club with both hands... and it takes a different skill to perform a repetive stroke regardless. Some people find it easier... some don't.

So draw bias drivers should be banned because they make poor drivers better just by equipment change alone?
[/quote]

[golfnut-2X]

did haas just win the tournament today with a belly putter? same guy that won the tour championship / fedex cup? Perhaps its a reaction to this.

sportscaster mentioined that the short putters seem to improve putts for short ones but the worst lag putters on the stats are anchored putters - didn't see the stats myself but heard it today.