Tiger is lost

[triplebogeyblues]

Once the OP used the word "fraud", I knew immediately he had an agenda.

Next.

[bobfoster]

[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1329964521' post='4354991']
Butch did a great job with him. Haney did a great job with him. Foley is doing a great job with him.

Why he keeps changing, I don't truly know, but clearly HE thinks he needs to get better.
[/quote]


I think his recent changes have as much to do with maintaining health as they do with getting better.

Truth is, golf is unusual ... not many other sports where a pro can play until nearly 50. Most of the best in the world have changed their swings multiple times over the course of their careers. They simply have to ... because the body itself changes. Tiger has actually changed slightly less than the norm IMO ...

[swbyps]

[quote name='eroc' timestamp='1329958402' post='4354201']
[quote name='TigerStrong' timestamp='1329957355' post='4354073']
Tiger is trying to be perfect...golf is not perfect
[/quote]

This is exactly what I have always thought. He's trying to be able to hit any shot at any time, and while he got as close as anyone ever from 3 wood to wedge, he has never been able to do it with the 45.25 inch driver. When you add in the impact of balls that don't curve as much, it makes it even harder to work the modern driver on command.

I don't think it's possible, not even Hogan could have done it. You've gotta make exaggerated moves in your swing from shot to shot that take you out of the corridor of success and introduce erratic misses into the equation, moves that none of the past greats had to make. He's holding himself to antiquated standards that are totally unattainable in the modern game.

I think he should simplify his shot selection with the driver, just go to a high launch low spin power fade. With his command of the long and mid irons, and considering that he hits them further than almost anyone out there, he doesn't need the occasional huge drive to win. I think as he gets older and less explosive with every year, the simplification will come naturally and he will get a 2nd (or 3rd, or 4th) wind. At that point, he will admit that he regrets not simplifying sooner, and lost a few years chasing perfection.
[/quote]

I like your thoughts here. I too believe he's chasing perfection. Not only that, but he seems to go about it as if its attainable. This of course is the essence of the drive that got him to where he is. At this point in his career he may very well need to reassess his approach as you suggested. The problem is...he knows no other way to do it. Its going to be difficult for him to change that aspect of his approach. Tiger wants to have EVERY shot in his bag. In his mind, he would probably view scaling back as a vulnerability or weakness in his game. Tiger aint havin none of that!

[H.A. Kerr]

[quote name='deasy55' timestamp='1329956262' post='4353913']
[quote name='TheMackDaddy' timestamp='1329955479' post='4353783']
Until you win 14 majors, don't tell Tiger how to play the game of golf.
[/quote]


By this logic only Jack is allowed have an opinion on Tiger's game
[/quote]

Boy, would these boards be a peaceful place if that were canon.

[svccmember]

I don't get Tiger backing off on so many shots, its strange and I wonder if he will add a Keegan hop to his pre shot routine.

Tiger putting with a line on his ball is strange as well. You take the best putter in the game and change his stroke and approach to putting?

I watched the 2005 Masters Highlights on the GolfChannel the other night. He was struggling but there were flat out moments of brilliance (Chip in on 16) and DeMarco knew he still wouldn't beat Tiger.

I don't see the aggressiveness, ferocity, and killer instinct in the "new" Tiger. Where is the swagger? The match today was more about who played worse rather than who played better. To be frank I like watching McIlroy more than the new Tiger, and wish the Tiger circa 2000 was still around.

I don't see him beating Watney tomorrow.

[BNich0622]

Not playing too bad for someone that is "Lost."

[triplebogeyblues]

[quote name='svccmember' timestamp='1329968299' post='4355527']
I don't see him beating Watney tomorrow.
[/quote]

It is easy to say that after watching golf today, but tomorrow is a different day.

[DevilGolfer]

[quote name='svccmember' timestamp='1329968299' post='4355527']
I don't get Tiger backing off on so many shots, its strange and I wonder if he will add a Keegan hop to his pre shot routine.

Tiger putting with a line on his ball is strange as well. You take the best putter in the game and change his stroke and approach to putting?

I watched the 2005 Masters Highlights on the GolfChannel the other night. He was struggling but there were flat out moments of brilliance (Chip in on 16) and DeMarco knew he still wouldn't beat Tiger.

I don't see the aggressiveness, ferocity, and killer instinct in the "new" Tiger. Where is the swagger? The match today was more about who played worse rather than who played better. To be frank I like watching McIlroy more than the new Tiger, and wish the Tiger circa 2000 was still around.

I don't see him beating Watney tomorrow.
[/quote]
Tiger Was plenty aggressive today. He hit a 3 wood from 270 and hit it 280. He took driver three times when he could have gone down to three wood after his opponent hit it into the cacti. He took two or three aggressive swings out of the cacti. He played a shot left handed. How does any of that equate not being aggressive?

As far as the line goes on his ball, he's ALWAYS putted with a line on his ball.

[bobfoster]

[quote name='DevilGolfer' timestamp='1329970411' post='4355837']
[quote name='svccmember' timestamp='1329968299' post='4355527']
I don't get Tiger backing off on so many shots, its strange and I wonder if he will add a Keegan hop to his pre shot routine.

Tiger putting with a line on his ball is strange as well. You take the best putter in the game and change his stroke and approach to putting?

I watched the 2005 Masters Highlights on the GolfChannel the other night. He was struggling but there were flat out moments of brilliance (Chip in on 16) and DeMarco knew he still wouldn't beat Tiger.

I don't see the aggressiveness, ferocity, and killer instinct in the "new" Tiger. Where is the swagger? The match today was more about who played worse rather than who played better. To be frank I like watching McIlroy more than the new Tiger, and wish the Tiger circa 2000 was still around.

I don't see him beating Watney tomorrow.
[/quote]
Tiger Was plenty aggressive today. He hit a 3 wood from 270 and hit it 280. He took driver three times when he could have gone down to three wood after his opponent hit it into the cacti. He took two or three aggressive swings out of the cacti. He played a shot left handed. How does any of that equate not being aggressive?

As far as the line goes on his ball, he's ALWAYS putted with a line on his ball.
[/quote]

Yes ... Tiger is (IMO) backing off swings because he is in the middle of a swing change. He is still overthinking things ... the new swing has not yet completely gelled. But I think a few more tourneys and he may amaze everyone. He still has the mental attitrude of a winner ...

[Sing Golfer]

Golf is a game where we are all constantly searching for a way to improve.

Does a 40 year old 15 handicapper on this forum say "you know...I am happy with my swing and shooting 82-90 most rounds, I think I'll just stick with what I've got." ? Perhaps there is one or two, but the vast majority are sitting there thinking of how that can get to single figures.

Personally, I've been sitting at 2 for a year, trying very hard to get to scratch. Almost everyone is on a constant path of seeking improvement. Just because you are one of the best golfers of all time (I think the best, but we can leave those arguments for numerous other threads) doesn't mean you lose that little voice inside your head that says you can get better.

Does Arnie think he can be better next week than he was 50 years ago - of course not. Does he think he can be better than he was last week - he sure does.

Tiger, despite his record is looking to improve, simple as that and as we all know, improvement is not linear.

Deep down inside, when Tiger is thinking about golf sitting in his plane and gazing out the window does he think he'll be back to the form of 2000?

Who knows. I suspect he knows he mostly won't get back there again. However I am sure he is thinking about Jack's record and how to get there in a body that has had numerous major injuries, and Foley's swing is a step in the right direction.

[square]

The only thing "amazing" about Tiger's near term performance is going to be the high scores he shoots.
As for mental attitude, he had a winner's attitude because he was winning consistently from age 7 to age 30. That attitude is mostly gone now because he abandoned the fundamental foundation which built his swing. Now he is lost.
Tiger absolutely must lose the fraud "instructor" Foley, stop this stack and tilt junk , or he is destined for mediocre Tour play, at best.
Additional Major victories? Not a chance unless he goes back to sound fundamental golf technique.




[quote name='bobfoster' timestamp='1329970707' post='4355883']
But I think a few more tourneys and he may amaze everyone. He still has the mental attitrude of a winner ...
[/quote]

[square]

Butch Harmon truly knows golf and is a capable instructor.
When Tiger first started seeing Harmon, about age 15, Harmon mostly just reinforced the textbook fundamentals which Tiger's junior golf instructor had taught him. And just as important Harmon shared with Tiger good knowledge about club selection, lines of play , learning specialty shots etc...
Haney is not in a class with Harmon for understanding the golf swing and the game. Haney is like too many "name" instructors, along with Jim McClean and Ledbetter, businessmen who promoted themselves , selling an image.
Foley is a charlatan pushing an "alternative method" which absolutely does not work. But it's different, and sometimes "non traditional" is an easy sale. I can see a desperate hack willing to buy and try anything which may possibly help their terrible game. But Tiger jumping into that pool is a shocker.

[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1329964521' post='4354991']
Butch did a great job with him. Haney did a great job with him. Foley is doing a great job with him.

Why he keeps changing, I don't truly know, but clearly HE thinks he needs to get better.
[/quote]

[H.A. Kerr]

I don't get it, square.

You obviously didn't make this post for the sake of discussion. I neither strongly disagree nor agree with your premise, but from my vantage point (and based on your responses) you're either only looking for:

1) Someone who disagrees to pick a fight with, or

2) A bunch of "+1" and "This!" to collect in your virtual pocket for vindication of your steadfast opinion.

Neither of these are worth a fart in the wind for a quality message board discussion. Either engage the detractors of your opinion in some sort of discussion/persuasion/anything or just stop it. You're not only just flogging your same ingrained, inflexible agenda over and over, ad nauseum, you're eating up bandwidth.

Either make it a discussion, or start the topic with the premise of "Here's the one agenda I'm going to repeat over and over, regardless what anyone offers as thoughtful discourse. Fair warning"

[moonshine]

It just seems, in a simple way from watching, TW is wide of his target all too often. Whatever it is these days, it is truly not the same as it once was. Getting it back may be the goal, but the guy is missing his target by a wide margin...especially approach shots. He takes so much time and uses great effort for some marginal results. It must be exhausting for sure.

[farmer]

He needs to ditch Foley and sign up with Amy Yang's teacher. Now there's a swing.

[bobfoster]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1329971711' post='4356001']
The only thing "amazing" about Tiger's near term performance is going to be the high scores he shoots.
As for mental attitude, he had a winner's attitude because he was winning consistently from age 7 to age 30. That attitude is mostly gone now because he abandoned the fundamental foundation which built his swing. Now he is lost.
Tiger absolutely must lose the fraud "instructor" Foley, stop this stack and tilt junk , or he is destined for mediocre Tour play, at best.
Additional Major victories? Not a chance unless he goes back to sound fundamental golf technique.

[quote name='bobfoster' timestamp='1329970707' post='4355883']
But I think a few more tourneys and he may amaze everyone. He still has the mental attitrude of a winner ...
[/quote]
[/quote]


Well ... I suppose we'll see, won't we. He made the choice to go with Foley ... for (probably) a lot of complicated reasons. And the fact is ... he is not exactly a dumb guy. In fact, he has the reputation for having studied the "fundamentals" of the golf swing at levels few golfers in history have.

Sorry to say this (and I'm being respectful) ... but the opinions of amateurs on internet discussion boards are pretty much meaningless next to the decision making processes of a guy that is close to one of the best that has ever played the game.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='H.A. Kerr' timestamp='1329972858' post='4356137']
I don't get it, square.

You obviously didn't make this post for the sake of discussion. I neither strongly disagree nor agree with your premise, but from my vantage point (and based on your responses) you're either only looking for:

1) Someone who disagrees to pick a fight with, or

2) A bunch of "+1" and "This!" to collect in your virtual pocket for vindication of your steadfast opinion.

Neither of these are worth a fart in the wind for a quality message board discussion. Either engage the detractors of your opinion in some sort of discussion/persuasion/anything or just stop it. You're not only just flogging your same ingrained, inflexible agenda over and over, ad nauseum, you're eating up bandwidth.

Either make it a discussion, or start the topic with the premise of "Here's the one agenda I'm going to repeat over and over, regardless what anyone offers as thoughtful discourse. Fair warning"
[/quote]

great post. i don't even disagree with Square but clearly it would be a waste of time to try to talk with him.

[square]

That's what makes this an interesting topic of discussion. Tiger's stunning mistake in the direction he has taken his game game.
As a golf fan who has followed Tiger's career since he was 14 years old, seeing him play some junior golf , amateur, and collegiate events live, I know how be built his golf game. I know what his technique was as a youngester and during the first ten years of his pro career. That technique worked for him. It is absolutely stunning that Tiger is now abandoning the technique fundamentals which he used to make his career.
I can guarantee you Jack Nicklaus and Tom Watson are shaking their heads after seeing that Tiger has bought into a nonsensical alternative swing technique method.

[quote name='bobfoster' timestamp='1329974341' post='4356285']

Sorry to say this (and I'm being respectful) ... but the opinions of amateurs on internet discussion boards are pretty much meaningless next to the decision making processes of a guy that is close to one of the best that has ever played the game.
[/quote]

[jons1]

oh, heck, i'll stir the pot some more.

Can anyone explain to me how any swing change Tiger has made has helped his health, be it the left knee or otherwise?

I'm just saying, I don't see how anything he's done over the years has done anything to help alleviate left knee strain, beyond just swinging under more control. In fact, his newest iteration, I would think puts even more strain on it since you try to keep your weight left, and go even further left. I would think the more he stays off it the better.

Can anyone explain how Haneys concept helped his knee, and how Foleys concept helps his knee more then Haney's. I guess I don't get it.

And the whole leg snap thing, I just find it hard to believe that Butch Harmon would teach Tiger to intentionally straighten his left leg really hard until locked, and being up on his toes (heel off the ground), to hit a drive. Something tells me, that was all Tiger and his engrained tendency. He seemed to always swing way too hard at the ball, and his body paid the price.

[MrParr1Noid]

This topic hasn't ever had a point nor a purpose. Topics such as this one are more geared toward the few for their entertainment, and mostly exclude the general membership.

Everyone here wants to be the the soothsayer, the predictor of the future...There are even those who think they know more about the professional golfer than the golfer himself. Do any here really believe that?

Either get this back to the topic or it's closed. On thin ice here.

Thank You

[square]

For years Tiger was into running lots of miles, for exercise. He also did weight training. This is the stuff that likely caused injuries, rather than anything to do with swinging a golf club.

[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1329976609' post='4356497']
oh, heck, i'll stir the pot some more.

Can anyone explain to me how any swing change Tiger has made has helped his health, be it the left knee or otherwise?

I'm just saying, I don't see how anything he's done over the years has done anything to help alleviate left knee strain, beyond just swinging under more control. In fact, his newest iteration, I would think puts even more strain on it since you try to keep your weight left, and go even further left. I would think the more he stays off it the better.

Can anyone explain how Haneys concept helped his knee, and how Foleys concept helps his knee more then Haney's. I guess I don't get it.

And the whole leg snap thing, I just find it hard to believe that Butch Harmon would teach Tiger to intentionally straighten his left leg really hard until locked, and being up on his toes (heel off the ground), to hit a drive. Something tells me, that was all Tiger and his engrained tendency. He seemed to always swing way too hard at the ball, and his body paid the price.
[/quote]

[TheDarkOne]

I've never been a fan of Foley, especially the way he has single handily destroyed Woods short game, but his over all approach isn't that bad....for the right player.
The problem I see with his relationship with Woods comes down to the essence of his robotic mechanical swing direction and it's application to someone like Woods who IMO was a tremendous "feel," player. You can see Woods constantly fighting himself to stay in the box Foley wants him to be in, his photo points in the swing, and become a human iron byron. This is never who Woods was. Woods at his best played on emotion and was able to conjure shots and swings that were purely products of the imagination, and he was the best at doing this since Seve. Foley has taken all this away.
Now some people I believe just don't like Foley or Woods and base a lot of their opinion on that. In fact most see Foley as a golf version of the creepy guy with the video camera from Mulholland Drive. I believe that Foley and Woods are both compotent on their own, but a terrible combination. It would be preferable for Woods to go off on his own and develop a swing by himself. He's won 14 majors and he's capable of doing this. He doesn't need a teacher.

[asualum]

[quote name='TheMackDaddy' timestamp='1329955479' post='4353783']
Until you win 14 majors, don't tell Tiger how to play the game of golf.
[/quote]

I stood behind the 18th green today at Dove Mountain and watched Tiger put his approach shot into the bunker, virtually assuring all of us that we'd being watching extra holes. Then he gently lifted that sand shot onto the green and drilled the putt, winning the match. The point: whether you like Tiger or not (I'm not a fan), his talent is immense and no matter how many swing coaches he goes through, Tiger is still Tiger. His will to win never diminishes.

[starsail85]

I wish people would stop saying, not that im a tiger fan... Seriously, your not going to get punished and judged either way,give it a rest

I still say hes on track.

Ever watched other pros on their slightly off days?

[Yepyukon]

I like Tiger's new swing but I am still iffy about his ability to dominate again until I start seeing him hit controlled draws to go along with his fade/power slice. There were a few times today that a draw was the correct choice but he played a fade instead (even the announcers were commenting on it). I am just not sold that he is "there" yet with his swing.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1329980209' post='4356735']
I wish people would stop saying, not that im a tiger fan... Seriously, your not going to get punished and judged either way,give it a rest

I still say hes on track.

Ever watched other pros on their slightly off days?
[/quote]

[size=7]THRILLHOUSE IS A TIGER FAN![/size]

[sefus12]

[quote name='TheDarkOne' timestamp='1329977958' post='4356625']
I've never been a fan of Foley, especially the way he has single handily destroyed Woods short game, but his over all approach isn't that bad....for the right player.
The problem I see with his relationship with Woods comes down to the essence of his robotic mechanical swing direction and it's application to someone like Woods who IMO was a tremendous "feel," player. You can see Woods constantly fighting himself to stay in the box Foley wants him to be in, his photo points in the swing, and become a human iron byron. This is never who Woods was. Woods at his best played on emotion and was able to conjure shots and swings that were purely products of the imagination, and he was the best at doing this since Seve. Foley has taken all this away.
Now some people I believe just don't like Foley or Woods and base a lot of their opinion on that. In fact most see Foley as a golf version of the creepy guy with the video camera from Mulholland Drive. I believe that Foley and Woods are both compotent on their own, but a terrible combination. It would be preferable for Woods to go off on his own and develop a swing by himself. He's won 14 majors and he's capable of doing this. He doesn't need a teacher.
[/quote]

TDO, I really like what you just said. Tiger has said many times he likes playing shots, being able to move it both ways when needed. This is how he's played golf for a long time and it made a lot of great results. I'm not going to say that the swing can't work as Tiger has hit a lot of great shots, but I do think Tiger is still having a hard time trusting the new swing while trying to work shots like he has in the past. I do think he wins again, though I think it's more dependent on his short game coming around at this point. Once the confidence is back, I think he'll start producing (though his last four or five starts haven't exactly been bad).

[tElihu]

I don't know about his swing, but to me it seems he is now putting from a more slumped posture, with his hands lower as well. I seem to recall when he was at his best, he stood very tall over the ball and let his hands and arms just hang from his shoulders. If I recall correctly, when he went off in Augusta in 97, his dad gave him a putting tip to stand taller.

Probably nothing (could be that it just looks that way since he's older and bigger, so he doesn't look as tall), but that's what it looked like to me when watching him recently.

[brentk14]

His swing isn't the 2000 Tiger swing, and never will be again. He was younger, more flexible, and more explosive then. Saying you wish he went back to that, in my opinion, is like saying we wish Brooke Shields looked like she did when she was in her 20's. Not gonna happen, but current version isn't too bad to look at for either of them.
I'd also have to say (I might be wrong here...so correct me if I am) but if you look at his last 8 stroke play tournament rounds, he's had 6 pretty solid days. Didn't finish the tournaments off like he should, and that is why he is winless this year. I can't say that is a lost swing.

[asualum]

[quote name='mizunostaffer' timestamp='1329980209' post='4356735']
I wish people would stop saying, not that im a tiger fan... Seriously, your not going to get punished and judged either way,give it a rest

I still say hes on track.

Ever watched other pros on their slightly off days?
[/quote]

I said it because it actually does mean something. It's easy for someone who's a fan to make a pro-Tiger statement. I'm not a Tiger fan and really don't care to watch him but even I can concede that the guy's talent and will to win are still there. No one's worried about being punished, just about being transparent when making a point.