Tiger is lost

[rafal]

The putts aren't dropping. End of story.

If he made putts he'd be back(tm) But he isn't and might not gonna.

Time will tell.

[bobfoster]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1330019005' post='4359061']
[b]All the commentary about Tiger requiring a different swing for injury reasons, is absolute nonsense.
[/b][/quote]


This may be one of the silliest comments I've ever heard (unless someone really hates Tiger). Every single pro on tour for more than a decade has made swing changes either because of injuries, or to avoid injuries. Jimenez (at 48 years old) beat Keegan Bradley today ... do you actually think he is using the same swing he did when he was 20?

What is "absolute nonense" is to believe that anyone on tour does NOT change swings over the years to keep their bodies healthy ...

[Dizz]

I heard there's gonna be a new book called "Where's Tiger?" Readers will be challenged to find a character named Tiger hidden in a group of people often times doing funny things. Tiger's distinctive red shirt, black pants and chipped tooth make him easier to recognize among impostors in the crowd.

[square]

Player's swings change from teenage years to 20's, 30's 40's etc... because their bodies may fill out, and most gain at least a little weight.
Tiger was a skinny teenager and once he hit his early and mid twenties the look of his swing naturally changed a bit due to the change in his physique.
That was fine since throughout the process Tiger adhered to the same time honored technique fundamentals which he learned as youngster.
It was only when Tiger started getting "instruction" from Hank Haney that he deviated from the classic fundamentals.And the move to Foley has taken Tiger further away from those fundamentals. This has put him in the "lost" state he is today.
Injury, or prevention of injury, has nothing to do with Tiger's current swing.
I've never heard of any player, certainly no highly skilled player with a good effective swing, who ever adopted a swing change for the sake of preventing injury. The idea is preposterous.

[quote name='bobfoster' timestamp='1330047244' post='4363129']


This may be one of the silliest comments I've ever heard (unless someone really hates Tiger). Every single pro on tour for more than a decade has made swing changes either because of injuries, or to avoid injuries. Jimenez (at 48 years old) beat Keegan Bradley today ... do you actually think he is using the same swing he did when he was 20?

What is "absolute nonense" is to believe that anyone on tour does NOT change swings over the years to keep their bodies healthy ...
[/quote]

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='J.W.' timestamp='1330048084' post='4363227']
I heard there's gonna be a new book called "Where's Tiger?" Readers will be challenged to find a character named Tiger hidden in a group of people often times doing funny things. Tiger's distinctive red shirt, black pants and chipped tooth make him easier to recognize among impostors in the crowd.
[/quote]

JW joining in on the comedy! I like it, well done sir!

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1330048693' post='4363309']
The term "level shoulder turn" is not to be taken literally. It is an expression traditional golf instructors use to convery the message that level is better than vertical shoulder turn. Level naturally promotes a correct pivot, weight shift.
For example, if you stand tall at attention and turn your shoulders to your right, you will notice your entire body has made a pivot (weight shift).
Obviously with a golf club in hand one cannot stand at attention. But adopting a correct posture promotes as level a shoulder turn as possible, and most naturally achieves correct pivot (weight shift).
In contrast, the stack and tilt nonsense has players bending over way too much at address, with the plane of their shoulders well forward of their knees. From this bad posture the only turn that can be made is a vertical one, dipping of the left shoulder down towards the ball. There is no pivot or weight shift. It's essentially a weak, ineffective, arms powered swing.

[/quote]

Whats your golf background square?

[Mizgoodie]

square, if you can't make a point without bashing a swing method just please stop, stack n tilt has won on tour, foley students have won on tour, as have countless other types of swings......... your are here bashing stack n tilt and foley,, just makes you look bad..... make a point without , name calling please.....

[Vindog]

square is Sean Foley trying to get a feel for his support.

[Mizgoodie]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1330048110' post='4363235']
Player's swings change from teenage years to 20's, 30's 40's etc... because their bodies may fill out, and most gain at least a little weight.
Tiger was a skinny teenager and once he hit his early and mid twenties the look of his swing naturally changed a bit due to the change in his physique.
That was fine since throughout the process Tiger adhered to the same time honored technique fundamentals which he learned as youngster.
It was only when Tiger started getting "instruction" from Hank Haney that he deviated from the classic fundamentals.And the move to Foley has taken Tiger further away from those fundamentals. This has put him in the "lost" state he is today.
Injury, or prevention of injury, has nothing to do with Tiger's current swing.
I've never heard of any player, certainly no highly skilled player with a good effective swing, who ever adopted a swing change for the sake of preventing injury. The idea is preposterous.

[quote name='bobfoster' timestamp='1330047244' post='4363129']



This may be one of the silliest comments I've ever heard (unless someone really hates Tiger). Every single pro on tour for more than a decade has made swing changes either because of injuries, or to avoid injuries. Jimenez (at 48 years old) beat Keegan Bradley today ... do you actually think he is using the same swing he did when he was 20?

What is "absolute nonense" is to believe that anyone on tour does NOT change swings over the years to keep their bodies healthy ...
[/quote]
[/quote]


i can't think of someone who changed it to prevent injury,, but like tiger i can name one that had to make adjustments in his swing to overcome injuries....... Hogan

[Dizz]

[quote name='square' timestamp='1330050718' post='4363577']
I don't carry a purse.

[quote name='Vindog' timestamp='1330050442' post='4363551']
square is Sean Foley trying to get a feel for his support.
[/quote]
[/quote]

That's an internet forum myth.

[Golfnutgalen]

Another frustrating week for Tiger fans, but there are signs of him getting better. First and foremost, his bunker play, both fairway and greenside, looks to be a million times better than the last two years. Secondly, he's hitting the ball long again, 350 for the longest drive on one of the holes and mid irons over 200 yards. The worst part of his game appears to be putting and chipping, that's the only area which needs serious work, especially chipping.

[masegolf1978]

How does he hit a draw with this new swing? It seems almost impossible from where he is at the top. I did see him hit a lay up mid-iron at abu dhabi that had a noticeable draw on it, but other than that, I can't remember the last time I saw him hit a draw, much less a hard draw/hook like Mickelson has been hitting lately to gain a bunch of distance.

Really miss the old tiger, the one that murdered three wood around the dog leg at 13 at Augusta with a hard draw.

I think he is good enough to win every now and then hitting a straight/fade shot every time, but I think his brilliance before was premised on his ability to hit all the shots.

[Golfnutgalen]

[quote name='masegolf1978' timestamp='1330055102' post='4364149']
How does he hit a draw with this new swing? It seems almost impossible from where he is at the top. I did see him hit a lay up mid-iron at abu dhabi that had a noticeable draw on it, but other than that, I can't remember the last time I saw him hit a draw, much less a hard draw/hook like Mickelson has been hitting lately to gain a bunch of distance.

Really miss the old tiger, the one that murdered three wood around the dog leg at 13 at Augusta with a hard draw.

I think he is good enough to win every now and then hitting a straight/fade shot every time, but I think his brilliance before was premised on his ability to hit all the shots.
[/quote]

He hit a beautiful draw 3-wood into the 330 yard (pin was back) drivable par-4 15th, however it was short and rolled off the front of the green.

[Smooth spin scott]

[quote name='Golfnutgalen' timestamp='1330055285' post='4364171']
[quote name='masegolf1978' timestamp='1330055102' post='4364149']
How does he hit a draw with this new swing? It seems almost impossible from where he is at the top. I did see him hit a lay up mid-iron at abu dhabi that had a noticeable draw on it, but other than that, I can't remember the last time I saw him hit a draw, much less a hard draw/hook like Mickelson has been hitting lately to gain a bunch of distance.

Really miss the old tiger, the one that murdered three wood around the dog leg at 13 at Augusta with a hard draw.

I think he is good enough to win every now and then hitting a straight/fade shot every time, but I think his brilliance before was premised on his ability to hit all the shots.
[/quote]

He hit a beautiful draw 3-wood into the 330 yard (pin was back) drivable par-4 15th, however it was short and rolled off the front of the green.
[/quote]


That 3 wood was vintage tiger! Riped low with a 15 yard draw 300+ yards. Just hit that shot all day or just hit the dang ball straight....I don't understand why hitting every shot with a cut is necessary. Comon Tiger lets get it going.

[DriveIt"N"3Putt]

[quote name='Golfnutgalen' timestamp='1330055285' post='4364171']
[quote name='masegolf1978' timestamp='1330055102' post='4364149']
How does he hit a draw with this new swing? It seems almost impossible from where he is at the top. I did see him hit a lay up mid-iron at abu dhabi that had a noticeable draw on it, but other than that, I can't remember the last time I saw him hit a draw, much less a hard draw/hook like Mickelson has been hitting lately to gain a bunch of distance.

Really miss the old tiger, the one that murdered three wood around the dog leg at 13 at Augusta with a hard draw.

I think he is good enough to win every now and then hitting a straight/fade shot every time, but I think his brilliance before was premised on his ability to hit all the shots.
[/quote]

He hit a beautiful draw 3-wood into the 330 yard (pin was back) drivable par-4 15th, however it was short and rolled off the front of the green.
[/quote]
He doesn't hit a draw even though a shot requires it. He wants to hit a power fade all the time. The times where he doesn't seem to be his stinger 3 woods that have a baby draw to them. Please hit more of these!

[masegolf1978]

[quote name='mysterymanmarty' timestamp='1330056773' post='4364361']
[quote name='Golfnutgalen' timestamp='1330055285' post='4364171']


He hit a beautiful draw 3-wood into the 330 yard (pin was back) drivable par-4 15th, however it was short and rolled off the front of the green.
[/quote]
He doesn't hit a draw even though a shot requires it. He wants to hit a power fade all the time. The times where he doesn't seem to be his stinger 3 woods that have a baby draw to them. Please hit more of these!
[/quote]

Just watching the DVR of the Watney match. He definitely hit a straight shot (appeared to be no fade/draw) 280 3 wood on 11, so I guess if he can do that consistently, he should be fine. Ha!
Seriously though, I guess that's why the lay up at Abu-Dhabi sticks out, in the sense that Tiger simply does not trust hitting a draw right now.

I feel like Dove Mountain illustrates this perfectly, in the sense that the hole will be dog-leg left and call for a draw, and Tiger will instead aim left of EVERYTHING (into the desert) and (try to) cut the ball back into the fairway.

Hope he gets it going again. I can't say I root for him, but I certainly don't room against him. And for what it's worth, I'm MUCH more likely to DVR when he's in the hunt!

[masegolf1978]

[quote name='Smooth spin scott' timestamp='1330056632' post='4364335']
[quote name='Golfnutgalen' timestamp='1330055285' post='4364171']


He hit a beautiful draw 3-wood into the 330 yard (pin was back) drivable par-4 15th, however it was short and rolled off the front of the green.
[/quote]


That 3 wood was vintage tiger! Riped low with a 15 yard draw 300+ yards. Just hit that shot all day or just hit the dang ball straight....I don't understand why hitting every shot with a cut is necessary. Comon Tiger lets get it going.
[/quote]

Ooops, my bad. I'll fast forward a bit and see it in about five minutes!

[mnplayer]

The man didn't hole the putts. Ball striking is there IMO. working the ball both ways, he's looks good, besides the putting.

[masegolf1978]

Just saw the draw on 15 (and the missed putt on 14). Have to agree, if he hits it tee to green like this, with better putting, he will be tough to beat. That said, he STILL seems uncomfortable hitting a draw. Even, the draw on 15 was more of a low rope hook at opposed to the towering tiger-high draw. I supposed I doth protest too much in the sense that he's still an incredible player.

It's funny how this site provides some introspection in the sense that I never felt like I was rooting for Tiger before, but I guess I really am. Guess I miss my highschool days when he was winning US Am's every year.

[rlonergan]

Put the Cameron back in the bag get rid of Foley and start getting some action. Game will come right around.

[kg92lefty]

he needs to be able to play a controlled draw instead of constantly hitting power fades. it may not help his score but it would be nice to see.

[DriveIt"N"3Putt]

[quote name='kg92lefty' timestamp='1330060748' post='4364749']
he needs to be able to play a controlled draw instead of constantly hitting power fades. it may not help his score but it would be nice to see.
[/quote]
I think it will help his scores, playing a fade that doesn't move enough he ends up in the deep rough. With his over the top practice swing if he closes the face to the path he's going left of left. Rose and mahan can hit it both ways, why can't tiger with Foleys method.

[slicktry]

Tiger HAD TO switch his swing. He has barely ANY cartilage left in his knees. Foley is a godsend in a few ways, mainly getting pressure off his left knee. Tigers swing is actually starting to look incredible. The swing is not the issue. Like others have posted in this thread, PUTTING, is what is dragging him down. PUTTING and nothing else. Tiger hit a 227 yd 7 iron in on one hole today and promptly missed the relatively short putt...

God Bless
Jer

[Rustynuts]

His ball striking is the issue! Every shot is a hold off fade, something the hands don't naturally want to do. Putting issues only show up when you hit it badly and need to make putts for par. In his day he hit a lot of greens and never had too many putts for par from more than a few feet.

[TheDarkOne]

Seeing the stinger again today was really something else, if he hit that on every "driver" hole, he would probably win multiple times each year.

That being said, his putting is at the lowest point i can remember ever in his career. Or maybe more accurately his putting when it matters. The putt he missed on the 18th today he could have made 100 times in a row just a few years ago.

I have made this point here before, and I will continue to as we have so many younger members who sadly have no sense of golf history, but this is far from unprecedented. If you look at virtually ever great player, the tell tale sign that the end of the professional career was close is when the putter dies. Palmer, Hogan, Seve, Watson, Norman, Faldo, Vijay, and the list goes on and on. It happens to different people at different times, but typically it hits the great players in their mid 30s. Also, if you view history as significant, not many ever came back to have significant wins after that. Sure they might get hot for a weekend or two, but once it goes it never comes back at the previous level.
Woods was a better putter than anyone I have ever seen, it was god like. He just couldn't miss and it allowed him to be sloppy in other areas like the driver. Now however, he has to be virtually perfect from tee to green to be competitive with the putter going south. AS time goes on I can see him winning a here and there, but it will never be like the peak, and it actually might even get worse.

In fairness however, Woods said in his post match interview yesterday that the putting stroke is "easy to fix."

[Slugsy]

It's his approach shots more than anything that's the issue, he's missing greens and getting nowhere near the hole that is putting pressure on his putting and chipping

[DriveIt"N"3Putt]

[quote name='TheDarkOne' timestamp='1330064027' post='4364955']
Seeing the stinger again today was really something else, if he hit that on every "driver" hole, he would probably win multiple times each year.

That being said, his putting is at the lowest point i can remember ever in his career. Or maybe more accurately his putting when it matters. The putt he missed on the 18th today he could have made 100 times in a row just a few years ago.

I have made this point here before, and I will continue to as we have so many younger members who sadly have no sense of golf history, but this is far from unprecedented. If you look at virtually ever great player, the tell tale sign that the end of the professional career was close is when the putter dies. Palmer, Hogan, Seve, Watson, Norman, Faldo, Vijay, and the list goes on and on. It happens to different people at different times, but typically it hits the great players in their mid 30s. Also, if you view history as significant, not many ever came back to have significant wins after that. Sure they might get hot for a weekend or two, but once it goes it never comes back at the previous level.
Woods was a better putter than anyone I have ever seen, it was god like. He just couldn't miss and it allowed him to be sloppy in other areas like the driver. Now however, he has to be virtually perfect from tee to green to be competitive with the putter going south. AS time goes on I can see him winning a here and there, but it will never be like the peak, and it actually might even get worse.

In fairness however, Woods said in his post match interview yesterday that the putting stroke is "easy to fix."
[/quote]
I hate to say I agree with you, but for the most part I do. I don't think tiger is at the point of no return with his putting. Hopefully it's like he says and it's fixed in a day, but that's saying it's the stroke. It's not the stroke it's in his head, he gets it closer to the hole from 45 feet than he does when he's 5 feet away. Tiger had 5 chances inside ten feet to get it going and he didn't. The putt on 18 was shameful.

[HCEG1]

There are no prizes for good swings and great ball-striking out there....

Tiger holed a disproportionately insane number of clutch putts throughout his dominant years, along with just about everything inside 10 feet he ever faced. That's not sustainable for anyone and was always going to come to an end

He's never been a good driver of the ball. Gary Player called him the worst driver of all the champion golfers because, with the possible exception of Seve, it's true. You get away with bad driving if you drain every 10 footer you face. If you don't, you start paying the price

[geesecougar2]

Tiger needs to go to the flowneck blade, like his putting coach Steve Stricker. It seems like most of the great putters in history have used putters with a lot of toe flow; he should hop on that bandwagon. He started to go in that direction with the heel shafted mallet, but it was too much of a departure. Trying to release the blade like he is, about 4.5 - 5 o'clock toe hang would work wonders for him I'm sure. Much better feel for distance control, but still with a bit of help to start the putt on line.

In the past, he was so good at the short par putts because his mentality was to ram them into the back of the cup, knowing he would make the comebacker if he missed. Well, it doesn't seem like he has that approach anymore, so he should alter the flatstick to accommodate this change.

[Eric S]

This game is all about 150 yards and in... his distance control is as poor as it's ever been and he's not making anything. Time to loose the method and get back to basics. He looks so mechanical now. We've all been through swing changes and its tough to not feel mechanical out there sometimes. When he was winning majors it looked like he was trying to get the ball in the hole and not trying to make the perfect swing. Just my opinion.