Why Golfers Who Shoot 85 to 100 Need Custom Fitting MORE than Golfers Who Shoot Under 80

[TomWishon]

(I originally posted this over on the EQUIPMENT forum - but realized that it needs to be posted here in this sub forum for sure.)

 

After reading about the 1,000th comment on this forum about custom fitting not being of value unless you can break 80, I have to step in and set the record straight because I think I will throw up if I read one more post from someone who says a golfer has to be able to break 80 to benefit from custom fitting.

 

The #1 Myth about custom fitting is to think you have to be a good golfer to benefit from custom fitting. Without question, THE TRUTH IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE. In general, golfers who shoot between the low to mid 80s and the high 90s benefit more, and benefit more immediately from professional clubfitting than do golfers who break 80 consistently or play close to scratch. I'm not saying golfers who break 80 do not benefit from fitting - I am saying those who shoot between the 80s and 100 benefit MORE and benefit more immediately from proper fitting.

 

And please - this is not a case of "Tom's just trying to push his agenda". I work in the custom design and custom clubfitting research end of the business because I choose to - because long ago I learned how much professional, full specs custom fitting can do to help a huge number of average golfers play a little to even a lot better and enjoy this great game much more. I have had opportunities to do what I do for a few of the big OEM companies and I was honored they were interested. But I have chosen to work in the custom side of the industry it is where I can learn the most about golf club performance, and because I know it is where I can do the most to potentially help golfers find golf equipment that will allow them to have the most chance of playing to the best of their ability.

 

Yes, without question there is a point at which a golfer is not good enough to benefit from custom fitting and needs lessons before they need to be custom fit. In general, that point is when a male golfer consistently shoots over 105 or a woman shoots over 120. However, for such golfers, having clubs to learn with in which the woods are much shorter in length than what is sold off the rack, clubs which are lighter, more flexible, with more "loft and CG friendly" set makeups and grips that fit the hands comfortably has been proven to shorten the learning curve to achieve a little better swing characteristics a little easier and sooner.

 

One very big reason custom fitting works better for average golfers is because today's off the rack standard club specs make it more difficult for less athletically inclined golfers to learn proper swing characteristics. Woods are much too long for less skilled golfers to control. Lofts are too low. Irons are too heavy. Off the rack set makeups are populated with too many clubs that are unhittable for the less athletically gifted people who want to play this game (3w, 3i, 4i, 5i) . And these are just a few of the ways that off the rack clubs get in the way of average golfers being able to play better.

 

A big reason good players are good is because they are more athletically blessed with respect to their neuro-muscular control and repetitive fine motor skills. Those talents good players were born with have allowed them to learn proper swing fundamentals, learn them faster and easier, and to be able to more easily adjust their swing to equipment that might not be the perfect fit for their size, strength, athletic ability and swing characteristics.

 

Most good players choose to get custom fit because so much of what makes you a good player also has to do with reacting to a specific FEEL you have acquired for golf clubs. You can feel the difference between clubs that fit and ones that don't, and your confidence and consistency will benefit from being properly fit.

 

It's not the same way with the golfers who shoot in the 80s to 100. Golfers at this level make swing mistakes because their golf athletic abilities are not as good - but they typically make roughly the SAME SWING MISTAKES. They are what we term as "consistently inconsistent." Yes, they can vary in the severity of their swing mistakes - a moderate slicer can let one go anywhere between 10 and 30+ yards of slice. But slicers rarely hook the ball and hookers rarely slice the ball. Low ball hitters rarely hit the ball too high and vice versa. Sure, we all make the occasional "double cross" and miss it both directions but not all the time.

 

Professional full specs custom fitting is designed to offset and reduce the poor shotmaking effects of such "consistently inconsistent" swing errors. Shorter driver and wood lengths make it easier to reduce the severity of the over the top, outside in move and hit the ball more on center, more often. Face angle changes offset the number of degrees a golfer may leave the face open or closed at impact. Loft changes allow the best launch angle and trajectory to be achieved for low to medium to high swing speeds, with downward to level to upward angles of attack.

 

Different total weights and different swingweights are chosen to match the strength and swing tempo tendencies of golfers from weak/smooth all the way up to strong and fast so that the swing can be more consistent and more repeatable. And on and on for situations to help average golfers reduce the severity of their swing mistakes.

 

Remember, golf is never about hitting all the shots perfect or developing the perfect swing. It is a matter of "making better misses" and missing fewer shots. Proper fitting is designed to help do that and do it more for those of us who make more moderate swing errors.

 

Professional fitting will not magically put any golfer on the first tee of the US Open. But it darn sure can do one, several or sometimes all of the following for golfers who shoot between the 80s and 100 : add 10 yds off the tee, turn a 25-35 yd slice into a 10-15 yd fade, hit 3-4 more fairways and 3-4 more greens per round, get closer to the green so the up and down percentage can increase, hit 20-40% more shots on center or not as far off center and allow a lesson to sink in and become habit a little sooner or a little easier.

 

Add wedge and putter fitting to the mix and it's not uncommon for the 80s to 100 shooter to get the ball up and down 2-3 more times a round and get around in 3 to 5 fewer putts per round.

 

Add it all up and this is why average golfers do tend to get more visible and more overnight game improvement from professional custom fitting than will low handicappers.

 

Without question, the #1 Truth about clubfitting is that a much greater number of average golfers will see a higher level of game improvement from professional clubfitting than will lower handicappers.

 

TOM

[20something]

Does this go with the advice you gave once about putting a piece of lead tape on a wedge, two pieces on a 9I, 3 pieces on an 8I, 4 pieces on a 7I and so on until you have a 4I with 7 pieces of lead tape on it to help with swing weight?

[TomWishon]

[quote name='20something' timestamp='1338985559' post='5039992']
Does this go with the advice you gave once about putting a piece of lead tape on a wedge, two pieces on a 9I, 3 pieces on an 8I, 4 pieces on a 7I and so on until you have a 4I with 7 pieces of lead tape on it to help with swing weight?
[/quote]

I am sorry but I do not recall saying anything like this. I must not have said whatever it was about head weight as clearly as I should of so you must have misunderstood me.

The only thing I can think of that we talk about with respect to varying the headweight in a progressibe upward manner is the concept of MOI matching of the clubs in a set to each other, done as an alternative to swingweight matching. But in MOI matching of a set of irons, that is somewhat similar to making the swingweights in a set go up progressively by a 0.5 swingweight point increment of increase per club, but done as you go down through the set from long iron to the wedges.

What my post here is talking about is getting all 13 key fitting specs on all clubs fit accurately to each golfers individual, unique combination of size, strength, athletic ability and swing characteristics so they can have the greatest chance to play to the best of their ability.

TOM

[Large David Hammer]

Just wanted to say thanks for boiling this down so thoroughly, clearly and LOGICALLY. Anyone who cuts through the hyperbole around here is a candidate for sainthood! Really appreciate this post. Passing the link to numerous golf buddies right now.

[Smash Factors]

I totally agree that a fitting will only improve any golfers game, but It's important to take a golf lesson first and then get fitted for clubs.

The last thing you wanna do is take a lousy posture and setup into a fitting, and then have clubs fitted according to your lousy setup.

Make sure the fundamentals are all in check, THEN get fitted.

[eagleface]

I got to say, getting fitted at Callaway was the best think I ever did. Irons with shafts that fit my swing speed really helped my game. i posted my best two rounds yet this year with those razr tours with rifled shafts. Also have had some great rounds with scores ruined by double par blow up holes. Fitting is completely worth it, it just takes time to find a good fitter.

[LumpyPockets]

I prefer a 44 inch driver shaft but none of the OEMs make one.

[zombiejpw]

I apologize for who I offend, but I think you're full of s#!t. While starting in the mid 110's with my Calaway clones and after two years with my name brand FITTED Ping irons have only taken me to the mid 90s. After roughly 20 rounds a year, 40 rounds total after two years and a practice range membership I highly doubt I'd be in a different place with my Ping than with my Calaway clones. I dropped 20 strokes my first year then got fitted and not a single Fn dropped stroke this year. I fall into the group that is tired of wasting time and not getting any better. Fitted or not, I question the significance at my level.

[iH83Putting]

I don't think he was aiming that post at someone that plays 20 times a year.........

[24vince]

[quote name='zombiejpw' timestamp='1346729839' post='5582195']
I apologize for who I offend, but I think you're full of s#!t. While starting in the mid 110's with my Calaway clones and after two years with my name brand FITTED Ping irons have only taken me to the mid 90s. After roughly 20 rounds a year, 40 rounds total after two years and a practice range membership I highly doubt I'd be in a different place with my Ping than with my Calaway clones. I dropped 20 strokes my first year then got fitted and not a single Fn dropped stroke this year. I fall into the group that is tired of wasting time and not getting any better. Fitted or not, I question the significance at my level.
[/quote]

You say you were "FITTED" but to what level, Tom is talking about a professional fitting that takes a look at many different aspects (tom says 13), I will argue most people dont know what a "real" fitting is its not the 20min you spend with the rep at your local big box store, or local course nor is it free....Its takes time and costs money.

I thought I've been playing fitted clubs for the last 10yrs(after all I was told I was being fitted) My most recent (and 1st real) iron fitting took just over 2hrs, I returned month later for a woods fitting and that was over 1hr....I payed the PGA pro each time for the cost of the fitting, even though I ordered clubs thru him (How could you take up 3-4hrs of his time fitting me for free?)

Did it make a differnce???? (i'm Tom's 80's shooter) My handicap has dropped, my average score has dropped, My dispersion patern is much better....Most importantly my confidence is way up

Maybe you were properly fit, maybe not....I will argue for those who have been, Tom's post is dead on

[myspinonit]

[quote name='zombiejpw' timestamp='1346729839' post='5582195']
I apologize for who I offend, but I think you're full of s#!t. While starting in the mid 110's with my Calaway clones and after two years with my name brand FITTED Ping irons have only taken me to the mid 90s. After roughly 20 rounds a year, 40 rounds total after two years and a practice range membership I highly doubt I'd be in a different place with my Ping than with my Calaway clones. I dropped 20 strokes my first year then got fitted and not a single Fn dropped stroke this year. I fall into the group that is tired of wasting time and not getting any better. Fitted or not, I question the significance at my level.
[/quote]

I think that mostly the point Tom and others are trying to make is that being fitted for a brand (like a set of Pings) is different than being properly "fitted", THEN finding what club characteristics work for you.

I'm a high 80's -low 90's (gearing to get consistently in low 80's) who has learned a lot and improved my game and equipment choices by sticking around golfwrx.

Fitting this year (that I might not have done without golfwrx) helped my game scores and enjoyment, put me into clubs and shafts I didn't even know existed and the choices he helped me make removed the thumb arthritis pain that was threatening to make me stop completely.

And I found from the fitting- and results confirmed since- that I was a "picker" not a "digger", so I had kept buying the wrong "game improvement" irons previously.

That said, the fitter wasn't bang on for fairway wood and hybrid shafts- too flexible- and these have been changed. It is possible that practice and dedication improved my swing so the firmer shafts are now better for me. I've also since shortened and reweighted my driver a tad that has helped me too; wouldn't have tried that without golfwrx or Tom's comments.

I also accept it is not possible improve further without lessons (and it can take a few tries to find the coach best suited for the individual).

As well as range work, [b] especially[/b] educated [b]short game[/b] practice (a lot) with a putter and other short game clubs suited for the individual and the courses regularly played. Wishon has said that proper putter fitting is the most neglected but the most important club for improvement as the average golfer hits over 40 percent of shots with it.


I think it also is important to accept that after all that, shooting mid-90's, one is still probably in the top 10 percent of golfers. Improvement past that range also depends on physical ability, focus and course management. Course management goes along with what Tom Wishon commented about "making better misses". The right equipment WITH the right shot choices suited for your ability and characteristics and where you usually play is part of that.

[akiracornell]

[quote name='zombiejpw' timestamp='1346729839' post='5582195']
I apologize for who I offend, but I think you're full of s#!t. While starting in the mid 110's with my Calaway clones and after two years with my name brand FITTED Ping irons have only taken me to the mid 90s. After roughly 20 rounds a year, 40 rounds total after two years and a practice range membership I highly doubt I'd be in a different place with my Ping than with my Calaway clones. I dropped 20 strokes my first year then got fitted and not a single Fn dropped stroke this year. I fall into the group that is tired of wasting time and not getting any better. Fitted or not, I question the significance at my level.
[/quote]

[akiracornell]

[quote name='zombiejpw' timestamp='1346729839' post='5582195']
I apologize for who I offend, but I think you're full of s#!t. While starting in the mid 110's with my Calaway clones and after two years with my name brand FITTED Ping irons have only taken me to the mid 90s. After roughly 20 rounds a year, 40 rounds total after two years and a practice range membership I highly doubt I'd be in a different place with my Ping than with my Calaway clones. I dropped 20 strokes my first year then got fitted and not a single Fn dropped stroke this year. I fall into the group that is tired of wasting time and not getting any better. Fitted or not, I question the significance at my level.
[/quote]
I agree with the both in a sense. 10 handicap and a 28 handcp are two different leagues. But i can say this. Im currently shoot all over the 80's low and high. As i am a poorboy i built a set iron by iron. Some off ebay. Its a mixed mizuno set. I had all the shafts matched. I had all the lies bent. Later after a few rounds i felt somthing was wrong with my 6 iron. It was fading about 10 yards while all my other irons felt pretty straight. I went and had it checked and it was bent 2* more flat than the others. My instinct told me even at address it looked off. So i do believe it makes a difference. Later down the rode i started to feel my 7 iron was kinda light. I would lose it in the swing compared to the others. It also threw my tempo off. I later found out the swing weight was 4-5 points lower because when it was shafted, a swing weight was pulled out of the head.. so yes i do believe it does make a difference. maybe not as much to a 20+ hcap because there is still alot other inconsistancies.
I can say transitioning from the 90's to the 80's wasnt only in consistant ball striking; but more putting and chipping. If you cant chip it close enough to 1 putt, you cant save par. Then also long putts will also save par with bad chips. But dont get me wrong; fairways, greens, and 2 putts make easier pars.

[golfschnell]

My game greatly improved after a professional fitting from callaway years ago. I had already spent the money and time for a couple of years with a good quality PGA professional and lots of practice which enabled me to develop a repeatable swing. The fitting then worked worked great particularly in my irons which are 3 degrees up. The lessons and practice got me down to about a 10 handicap. the fitting and more practice and lessons a few times a year got me down to low single digits. However, I don't think fitting would have had nearly such a dramatic impact before I developed a repeatable golf swing, in fact it may have been detrimental to my progress.

[MCRatliff]

[quote name='zombiejpw' timestamp='1346729839' post='5582195']
I apologize for who I offend, but I think you're full of s#!t. While starting in the mid 110's with my Calaway clones and after two years with my name brand FITTED Ping irons have only taken me to the mid 90s. After roughly 20 rounds a year, 40 rounds total after two years and a practice range membership I highly doubt I'd be in a different place with my Ping than with my Calaway clones. I dropped 20 strokes my first year then got fitted and not a single Fn dropped stroke this year. I fall into the group that is tired of wasting time and not getting any better. Fitted or not, I question the significance at my level.
[/quote]

I don't think you're going to get better just by getting fitted. You have to dedicate a lot of time and effort to becoming a good golfer. Getting fitted will make it easier to utilize your potential, I think, but it doesn't mean lower scores. You still have to hit the shots.

[596]

First, I agree with Tom. A low capper can hit just about anything put in thier hands. While a high capper will benefit from a club that is built to their swing.

Here's the difference. A low capper is there for a number of reasons.
1. Tons of golf and practice per week
2. Last but not least - Hand eye coordination, body coordination, genetics and physical ability

What I'm getting at is not everyone has the physical ability to play golf well. Even though they practice and play alot, this will not always mean shooting low 70's, ever!! Golf is a sport, you can't just pick a sport and be great at it, even with a ton of practice. There are other factors then just your "want". Why do you think some people are better then others with less practice and time golfing? As one of the people that are not "gifted" in golf, you are much better off and will benefit from a pro fitting more then a guy that can hit with a broom stick further then your driver.

[golfschnell]

While you make some valid points fitting will not help anyone much if they do not have a repeatable golf swing. Its like trying to custom fit a suit for someone like Oprah whose weight changes by 60 pounds every month, it will fit only part of the time. Now if the chop has at least tried some lessons and practices and can at least make the same over the top slice move over and over again then a closed faced driver with a softer tip shaft will help him hit the ball a bit straighter. If his swing is different every time the money is MUCH better off spent with a good qualified PGA instructor.

I play off a 3 handicap resulting from digging it out of the dirt. good lessons, and quality fitted equipment. I am blessed with decent health and the time and means to play a buttload of golf, not blessed with the ability to hit a golf ball with a broom stick however.

[crapula]

I had a fitting from one of Tom's recommended fitters about 4 months ago. I spent over $2000 on range balls, rounds, and gas (that's not counting the money I spent on the set of clubs). I have been back to the fitter 5 times. I still do not like my clubs and since the guy lives an hour away, I will not return. I even returned the entire first set of irons I was so dissatisfied (which took me a month of emailing him and the manufacturer). My avg score increased by 10 shots after the custom set, my fir went down 25% and my gir went down 20% (I played 10 rounds with the clubs and hit over 1000 balls at the range).

I could write a book about how bad my fitting experience was.

I would rather have a club that feels amazing and gives me less than optimal numbers than a club that feels like trash and gives me optimal numbers. I don't care about reducing my spin rate by 200rpms or increasing my launch angle by 1 degree. Give me a club that feels good and gives me confidence.

There is so much information on the internet about fitting clubs that with a little research anyone can get enough information to go buy used clubs. That is the way I used to do it, hit used clubs at a retail store until there was a set there that matched what I wanted.


[b]The best part about my custom fitting is that I went from shooting under 80 to shooting over 85, so I actually need a fitting more now than I did before. [/b]

[timeless]

[quote name='crapula' timestamp='1347564330' post='5635419']
I had a fitting from one of Tom's recommended fitters about 4 months ago. I spent over $2000 on range balls, rounds, and gas (that's not counting the money I spent on the set of clubs). I have been back to the fitter 5 times. I still do not like my clubs and since the guy lives an hour away, I will not return. I even returned the entire first set of irons I was so dissatisfied (which took me a month of emailing him and the manufacturer). My avg score increased by 10 shots after the custom set, my fir went down 25% and my gir went down 20% (I played 10 rounds with the clubs and hit over 1000 balls at the range).

I could write a book about how bad my fitting experience was.

I would rather have a club that feels amazing and gives me less than optimal numbers than a club that feels like trash and gives me optimal numbers. I don't care about reducing my spin rate by 200rpms or increasing my launch angle by 1 degree. Give me a club that feels good and gives me confidence.

There is so much information on the internet about fitting clubs that with a little research anyone can get enough information to go buy used clubs. That is the way I used to do it, hit used clubs at a retail store until there was a set there that matched what I wanted.


[b]The best part about my custom fitting is that I went from shooting under 80 to shooting over 85, so I actually need a fitting more now than I did before. [/b]
[/quote]

So who was your fitter so I know not to go there?

[MizzyMan]

I didn't read all the posts but I think he's right. Most pretty good players have a pretty good idea what they need. Whether it be the flex of the shaft, a low or high-launch shaft, lie angles, etc. They know if something is off, such as a 6-iron that's a couple of degrees flat. And I think average players just want something that will work for a basic stock, try-to-hit-it-straight swing. The best shaft, length, lie etc. to pull off a basic shot reasonably consistently. Good players are wasting their time getting fitted for irons without taking them out and hitting them on a course or a good range IMO.

[misterlau]

Can you clarify (in a general sense) the type of player you are talking about? For example, we can classify players based on their handicap or what they shoot, but obviously not everyone who is at the same level on paper is taking the same exact path to those final scores. Also, how do you factor in experience? Would you make the same recommendations for a 15 h/c that has been playing for 2 years and putting in the practice to lower his scores as you would for a 15 h/c that has played for 20 years and has been a 15 h/c for like 10 years, but only plays weekends and doesn't practice?

I guess I'm trying to get a better idea of the audience you would recommend this advice for. And if your strategy for the two above types of players is different, I'd be interested in what both of them would be.