Eliminating early extension - once and for all

[chrisgilly09]

Bend a 6 iron 6* flat and try early extending with it lol.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='davekzg' timestamp='1357143234' post='6153363']
i found this video and drill very interesting, ive ordered a couple of these to help with exercise anyway, what do Monte and others think? [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnRh387NpRw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnRh387NpRw[/url]
[/quote]

His shoulders turn too flat and that indirectly leads to the EE.

When he was on the pads, he eliminated hip movement all together in order to stay balanced and not EE as much. Watch how much less hip turn he has at impact on the pads (and how much he restricted them on backswing, which will give you some EE).

If he was more vertical on the shoulder turn, he would have more room to shallow on the way down and wouldn't EE.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1357144207' post='6153485']
Bend a 6 iron 6* flat and try early extending with it lol.
[/quote]

That was a funny visual.

[bmellisen]

[quote name='Llortamaisey' timestamp='1357138760' post='6152985']
[quote name='bmellisen' timestamp='1357134691' post='6152735']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1357134117' post='6152707']
[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1357132734' post='6152661']
Wow. I early extend, but I'm not sure it is bad enough a flaw to apply the time/effort described in this thread to fix. JMHO.
[/quote]

I have always wondered, but never read a single opinion on this (which is amazing since internet golf boards have opinions on everything). If, for whatever reason, a golfer had a permanent early extension, just what kinds of other compensations would be appropriate to minimize the negatives of the EE?

dave
[/quote]

A lot smarter people than me can answer this, but arent upright clubs supposed to help, and the draw biased drivers? I am not saying they worked, just isnt that the idea behind them?
[/quote]

I have suffered from EE all my life and while I'm not smarter than you, I can tell you that the people you speak of would conclude upright clubs would not help EE. The majority of the time, EE is caused by the golfer trying to flatten and shallow the club plane. An upright lie angle would exacerbate the hooks and blocks.

Since the biggest problem that EE causes is poor timing, I would say if someone wanted to compensate for permanent EE, the best way would be to practice their timing 40 hours per week.
[/quote]

I feel like this isnt correct. Someone EE, the club shaft is more vertical to the ground, making clubhead more toe down. Flattening the lie would just make it even more toe down. But i also believe that most people who early extend dont hit hooks, they hit slices. But that could just be the guys at the range i go to.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='bmellisen' timestamp='1357134691' post='6152735']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1357134117' post='6152707']
[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1357132734' post='6152661']
Wow. I early extend, but I'm not sure it is bad enough a flaw to apply the time/effort described in this thread to fix. JMHO.
[/quote]

I have always wondered, but never read a single opinion on this (which is amazing since internet golf boards have opinions on everything). If, for whatever reason, a golfer had a permanent early extension, just what kinds of other compensations would be appropriate to minimize the negatives of the EE?

dave
[/quote]

A lot smarter people than me can answer this, but arent upright clubs supposed to help, and the draw biased drivers? I am not saying they worked, just isnt that the idea behind them?
[/quote]

Seems reasonable that the average golfer with EE would 'require' a more upright lie than the same golfer without EE. But ultimately all this is saying is that all golfers should have clubs that fit their 'actual' impact position (and that, possibly, it is more likely that EE golfers will be playing ill-fitted clubs).

dave

ps. I am an EE golfer and wouldn't dream of playing a draw biased driver.

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Llortamaisey' timestamp='1357138760' post='6152985']
[quote name='bmellisen' timestamp='1357134691' post='6152735']
[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1357134117' post='6152707']
[quote name='DLiver' timestamp='1357132734' post='6152661']
Wow. I early extend, but I'm not sure it is bad enough a flaw to apply the time/effort described in this thread to fix. JMHO.
[/quote]

I have always wondered, but never read a single opinion on this (which is amazing since internet golf boards have opinions on everything). If, for whatever reason, a golfer had a permanent early extension, just what kinds of other compensations would be appropriate to minimize the negatives of the EE?

dave
[/quote]

A lot smarter people than me can answer this, but arent upright clubs supposed to help, and the draw biased drivers? I am not saying they worked, just isnt that the idea behind them?
[/quote]

I have suffered from EE all my life and while I'm not smarter than you, I can tell you that the people you speak of would conclude upright clubs would not help EE. The majority of the time, EE is caused by the golfer trying to flatten and shallow the club plane. An upright lie angle would exacerbate the hooks and blocks.

Since the biggest problem that EE causes is poor timing, I would say if someone wanted to compensate for permanent EE, the best way would be to practice their timing 40 hours per week.
[/quote]

I'm not sure that I would call just 'getting better at something' compensation. But I guess it might fall in that category.

I was thinking more along the lines of what I would tell a guy who was always going to swing over the top with an open clubface.

1) Aim right

2) Strong grip

3) A club with a closed faced (or just close it at address)

Then they at least have a shot at hitting a (straight) dead pull. Not the best solution, but better than swiping across the ball. And better than what our congress recently achieved

dave

[OspreyCI]

Sounds like too flat with hips and shoulders in the backswing are the main causes.

[russc1597187869]

Understanding what EE is
EE is nothing more than your butt going towards the target line during the downswing ,with weight moving toward your toes
There are a number of causes.First is potential fitness issues , especially flexibility issues with the hamstrings and glutes.Second is mistakes in the way that you bend to the ball resulting in a fore/aft balance that encourages weight moving towards the toes during the swing.Third is snatching the club too inside during the takeaway.Make a one piece takeaway.Third is failure to turn deep with your hips going back.Turning deep with your hips while creating width with your arms will create space for your arms going down.Failure to do both makes EE that much more likely.Too much lateral leg drive going down will only exacerbate any tendency towards EE

i am sure that i have left out a few contributing factors but those are the major ones
So if you want to eliminate EE you first need to make sure that your flexibility is adequate,then you need to be balanced fore/aft at setup ,then you need to create space for the arms during your backswing and last you need to watch out for excessive leg drive

[pokerlife]

I am the king of EE . Monte has told me i turn my shoulders wrong more than once but its easier said than done

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuwehPz3a-A"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuwehPz3a-A[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWJIqV1cNfk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWJIqV1cNfk[/url]

[pokerlife]

just recorded myself at a different angle almost standing straight up and i even early extend on the backswing standing. The rest of you guys should record yourself to and see if the issue is still there. Been painting the kitchen all day is the reason for the mess

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNLn34Imvzo[/media]

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357162872' post='6155355']
I am the king of EE . Monte has told me i turn my shoulders wrong more than once but its easier said than done

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuwehPz3a-A"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuwehPz3a-A[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWJIqV1cNfk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWJIqV1cNfk[/url]
[/quote]

Steep downswing. You need more lateral hip movement in transition so you won't pull the handle so hard and allow your right elbow to get in front of your right hip.

[DLiver]

[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357169902' post='6155997']
just recorded myself at a different angle almost standing straight up and i even early extend on the backswing standing. The rest of you guys should record yourself to and see if the issue is still there. Been painting the kitchen all day is the reason for the mess

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNLn34Imvzo[/media]
[/quote]

What mess?

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357169902' post='6155997']
just recorded myself at a different angle almost standing straight up and i even early extend on the backswing standing. The rest of you guys should record yourself to and see if the issue is still there. Been painting the kitchen all day is the reason for the mess

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNLn34Imvzo[/media]
[/quote]

Your right hip is flying towards where the ball would be. When people say "swing around your left leg" it causes people to do this. If you use your rear end to counter-weight the club head your right hip will not move toward the ball and will force your left hip to clear THEN you can turn around the left leg.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggLTM9bfD54[/media]

[HappyGolf]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1357154905' post='6154483']
Understanding what EE is
EE is nothing more than your butt going towards the target line during the downswing ,with weight moving toward your toes
[/quote]

So what happens if you maintain your tush line but back out of the shot with your head? Not EE?

[rok78]

By the nature of the term "EARLY extension" the problem is in matching up the rates you are extending versus the rotation and side bending of your spine. It's not that you don't want to extend, but that you're doing it too early compared to your rotation and right side bending (right shoulder to right hip).

You 100% cannot fix it by making fast motion swings. Changes only happen in drilling slow motion to fast motion and having body awareness. If you can't close your eyes and make a slow motion swing correctly then you won't be able to do it fast with your eyes open and the ball staring at you.

I don't know what the feel would be to you because I'm not in your body, but I would experiment with the opposite problem (no extension) until you find a middle ground by rotating and right side bending at a faster rate than the extension part.

One example would be to make slow motion swings while literally not let your right hip get any closer to the ball than it's position at the top of the backswing. This is an exaggeration of what would really happen and may help facilitate a change. Do this with your eyes closed and remember what it feels like and then exaggerate that feel as you increase speed.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1357181496' post='6157151']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1357154905' post='6154483']
Understanding what EE is
EE is nothing more than your butt going towards the target line during the downswing ,with weight moving toward your toes
[/quote]

So what happens if you maintain your tush line but back out of the shot with your head? Not EE?
[/quote]
If you maintain the tush line and back out with the head you will probably miss the ball.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1357181496' post='6157151']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1357154905' post='6154483']
Understanding what EE is
EE is nothing more than your butt going towards the target line during the downswing ,with weight moving toward your toes
[/quote]

So what happens if you maintain your tush line but back out of the shot with your head? Not EE?
[/quote]
that is an interesting question.how does this happen..You could raise the angle of your neck.you could change the angle. that you have bent to the ball.
any ways that you could think of?

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1357182671' post='6157271']
[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1357181496' post='6157151']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1357154905' post='6154483']
Understanding what EE is
EE is nothing more than your butt going towards the target line during the downswing ,with weight moving toward your toes
[/quote]

So what happens if you maintain your tush line but back out of the shot with your head? Not EE?
[/quote]
that is an interesting question.how does this happen..You could raise the angle of your neck.you could change the angle. that you have bent to the ball.
any ways that you could think of?
[/quote]

Tiger does it and has for a while. Sometimes it is EE and sometimes it isn't.

[HappyGolf]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1357182671' post='6157271']
[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1357181496' post='6157151']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1357154905' post='6154483']
Understanding what EE is
EE is nothing more than your butt going towards the target line during the downswing ,with weight moving toward your toes
[/quote]

So what happens if you maintain your tush line but back out of the shot with your head? Not EE?
[/quote]
that is an interesting question.how does this happen..You could raise the angle of your neck.you could change the angle. that you have bent to the ball.
any ways that you could think of?
[/quote]

Yes, I'm thinking along the lines of the 'hump the goat' look where the back of the neck raises/head backs out, and also that EE doesn't only happen in the downswing as you said, plenty raise up in the backswing as the left shoulder forces the head up... and not necessarily the pelvis forward (if you're shifting weight to your heels for example).

Just putting my thoughts out there for discussion.. typing out loud basically

I was trying to think how I would sum up EE in one sentence..... but haven't got there yet LOLOL

[kenwiggins11]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1357089954' post='6150785']
Early extension is an athletic move in an effort to shallow the club and get the path/ball more right. Fix the steepness and there is no need to early extend. I'd advise to get what feels deep and shallow coming down. Will feel like you'd hit big pushes. If you stall and stand up you'll dump everything and either hit a foot behind it or all but whiff. If you were deep and shallow you could "cover it" and keep turning to get clubhead out to the ball. You will actually feel like your arms are behind that stick, they won't be, and Id remove it as that's not helping your specific issue
[/quote]

Great topic on EE. Am I picturing what you mean by hands deep correctly? And deep and shallow in down swing. Trying to get a visual of what deep and shallow as you describe is.

[iteachgolf]

Bottom right would be deep and shallow. And look at his lower body. The opposite of early extension, sitting into ground more coming down

[kenwiggins11]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1357186034' post='6157697']
Bottom right would be deep and shallow. And look at his lower body. The opposite of early extension, sitting into ground more coming down
[/quote]

Perfect! Thank you I am extremely visual and feel based... Did not want to assume what correct is.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1357183791' post='6157403']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1357182671' post='6157271']
[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1357181496' post='6157151']
[quote name='russc' timestamp='1357154905' post='6154483']
Understanding what EE is
EE is nothing more than your butt going towards the target line during the downswing ,with weight moving toward your toes
[/quote]

So what happens if you maintain your tush line but back out of the shot with your head? Not EE?
[/quote]
that is an interesting question.how does this happen..You could raise the angle of your neck.you could change the angle. that you have bent to the ball.
any ways that you could think of?
[/quote]

Yes, I'm thinking along the lines of the 'hump the goat' look where the back of the neck raises/head backs out, and also that EE doesn't only happen in the downswing as you said, plenty raise up in the backswing as the left shoulder forces the head up... and not necessarily the pelvis forward (if you're shifting weight to your heels for example).

Just putting my thoughts out there for discussion.. typing out loud basically

I was trying to think how I would sum up EE in one sentence..... but haven't got there yet LOLOL
[/quote]
Setting up with your chin tucked and your shoulders really hunched over is probably a sure way to ensure rising up going back.i am sure that there are anumber of others

[Hstead]

I was hitting it sideways this fall and so I made a trip south to my teacher. I was hitting a lot of thin shots off of the toe. I wasn't taking much of a divot at all. Sure enough, I was backing out of the shot, my head was backing up three or four inches and my hips were going forward. I had never done this in my life. I had always had a very good lateral shift to my left side which prevented this. I foolishly took a lesson from a guy in Lexington KY that was highly rated by the golf magazines and he had me doing things I just knew were not good for me. He wanted me to make this big sway off of the ball and then just turn real hard and "stay behind it". I knew when he had me change to this move it was not for me, but I had grooved it enough unfortunately that it crept into my swing.

So, back to my old faithful coach, and sure enough I was doing exactly that, swaying off, staying back, and just spinning the hips causing an EE. He had me sork again on keeping the head still going back, making a good hip turn, then before I started down he had me bump left, then just drop the arms and rotate. One of the best things he had me do that really helped me visually was to stand in my address position with my head against the wall, make a back swing, and instead of just turning, he had me drive my left shoulder and left hip toward the wall, which would be the target line.

He made a baseball analogy that I was basically "stepping in the bucket" by pulling my left side off of the ball. Now I feel like my left shoulder goes toward the target and viola, EE is gone and I can hit the middle of the face again with the proper divot. Great drill and great image for me anyway.

[JPGolf FL]

Understanding what EE is

EE is nothing more than your butt going towards the target line during the downswing ,with weight moving toward your toes

 

So what happens if you maintain your tush line but back out of the shot with your head? Not EE?

that is an interesting question.how does this happen..You could raise the angle of your neck.you could change the angle. that you have bent to the ball.

any ways that you could think of?

 

Yes, I'm thinking along the lines of the 'hump the goat' look where the back of the neck raises/head backs out, and also that EE doesn't only happen in the downswing as you said, plenty raise up in the backswing as the left shoulder forces the head up... and not necessarily the pelvis forward (if you're shifting weight to your heels for example).

 

Just putting my thoughts out there for discussion.. typing out loud basically

 

I was trying to think how I would sum up EE in one sentence..... but haven't got there yet LOLOL :(

 

The look you are talking about in the neck and head is a direct reaction to the "hump" move where the pelvis humps toward the ball. Once the hump happens the only way to hit the ball is to raise up and EE. If someone made that move without the hump there is no way they would reach the ball. What part starts the chain reaction of EE is always up for discussion. IMO it starts with ones intention. If your target is the ball, it is very difficult to not goat hump. The subconscious is aiming at the ball so it extends to the ball. If your target is the target and you make a swing, it is much easier to maintain the tush line and not EE. This intention tells your subconscious to extend towards the target, not the ball.

make gifs

[Llortamaisey]

[quote name='bmellisen' timestamp='1357145939' post='6153641']
I feel like this isnt correct. Someone EE, the club shaft is more vertical to the ground, making clubhead more toe down. Flattening the lie would just make it even more toe down. But i also believe that most people who early extend dont hit hooks, they hit slices. But that could just be the guys at the range i go to.
[/quote]

Like I said, there are people on here a lot more intelligent on this subject than myself. There must be different kinds of EE. Obviously some of the teachers on here have seen it all and they would know better.

I can only relate to what I do and what I have seen on videos of my swing. I come in with a steep plane and have to early extend to shallow it out. Right before I hit the ball, my butt pushes in away from the tush line and my hands suck into my body and lower. This causes me to lower the handle and shallow out. If I didn't EE, I'd come in too steep and the handle would be too high. I usually play clubs 2 to 3 degrees flat because I hook/pull anything else.

[pokerlife]

Hey Sponge you will be hearing from my lawyer for that discriminating image you made of me humping the goat!
Haha its all good I actually noticed something today.. My head is tucked down at setup and my posture could use a little work. My backswing starts with me raising a little as my shoulders hit my head as soon as the takeaway starts.

[GeoffDickson]

Russc,

Here is a DTL of the new setup. There are 6 swings. I was not trying to do anything other than get the posture/setup correct, so happy if you keep the comments/feedback to just that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgKrriB3c14

I am feeling very good about the new setup. Thanks.

PS. Face on view will be up tomorrow.

[pokerlife]

Monte Im really working hard to get the correct shoulder turn.. This feels 100% different and it is pretty uncomfortable on my neck but i noticed the club finally looks correct in my takeaway and im not picking it up to the outside..

Really appreciate this thread and your advice .. Would you say my turn is the same, better or worse.


[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYjgjmnX6GE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYjgjmnX6GE[/url]

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357194704' post='6158441']
Hey Sponge you will be hearing from my lawyer for that discriminating image you made of me humping the goat!
Haha its all good I actually noticed something today.. My head is tucked down at setup and my posture could use a little work. My backswing starts with me raising a little as my shoulders hit my head as soon as the takeaway starts.
[/quote]
Ha, no harm intended PL. I used it as an illustration to show how being too focused on the ball will cause you to completely extend at the ball. You must swing through the ball, not at the ball.
BTW, the set up looks much better. The backswing looks a little steep to me. It really depends on what happeneds in your transition.