Eliminating early extension - once and for all

[CallawayLefty]

[quote name='596' timestamp='1357249091' post='6162375']
[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1357247846' post='6162249']
But here's the thing 596 (and by the way, I generally agree with you about picking and choosing advice/feels/etc.), people tend to get stuck at a certain level when their naturally repeatable swing doesn't do the things they need it to do. I've seen duffers repeat the hell out of a weak slice and shoot 100, but I wouldn't just concede that that's how they need to play the game on an ongoing basis. I would consider my own swing to be very repeatable in that I'm sure about 90% of my swings look exactly the same in all material respects. But unfortunately with the goat hump and associated flip, that you're basically repeating the same motions every time doesn't mean that you won't still have wild inconsistency in your shots. If all I ever faced was a 5 yard hook or something, I probably wouldn't worry about it. But when you EE, you can block it, hook it, sh*t you can even throw the hosel on one every now and again. And I do believe (at least in my head, not always in my actual practice method) that you can't just go change something in one range session. A real change is going to take months and months and months, up to years. What if somebody told you that all of a sudden you had to start driving your car in reverse all the time. Do you think you'd get the hang of it in 1 hour of driving around town?

Again, I agree with your point that you should be careful what quick fixes you apply to your own swing. [b]But I definitely disagree that this stuff is all just worthless and you need to stick with your natural move (at least if you care to play better than you currently do).[/b]
[/quote]

See bold above.....I didn't say it was all worthless. For some poeple it is all as good as gold. Definately good for a med to high cap who wants to be better. As for a low cap......yes indeed it can help, but if you are like me....57 years old, playing for 4 years , 3 index.....repeatable boos boos in the swing, I'm not sure its worth it to change something that will take effect and become natural when I turn 60. All I'm trying to get across is for some it works, for some it won't matter and you have to take into account the players physical abilities. It all depends on you, your swing, your place in the game and the place of the game in your life.

CallawayLefty - I guess it all depends on how far ones compensations can become repeatable. Obviously mine can be very repeatable.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I think it also depends on what you want out of the game. I'm a 3 handicap as well, and while you seem pretty content there, all I see when I play are all the reasons I'm not a +3 handicap. When I get to that level, I might call it good enough and just let my faults and other sleeping dogs lie, but until then, I'm going to keep cracking away at it.

[Cwebb]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1357144207' post='6153485']
Bend a 6 iron 6* flat and try early extending with it lol.
[/quote]

Yeah, if someone is in their ideal address position and their clubs are sitting well toe up,....it can actually promote coming up and out and early extension. Something "relatively flatter" with a swing approach that is aiming to brush the heel side of the sole through impact, will promote the opposite

[aimleft]

My club steepends tremendously in transition. From this position I have no choice but to EE to try and catch up. I have tried to work on this in slow motion by having the FEEL that my back stay facing the target and allows the trail arm to reconnect better to the torso. The problem is that my legs are soo accustomed to pushing off the ground ( powerful hump) that I end up with the opposite fault of getting too far underplane.

Anyone have any drills of feels that can help to keep the club in the deep/shallow position that iteach referened above in the downswing? Will the rest of the body synch it self in the downswing if the club is on a proper plane in transition?

This seems like a big FEEL vs REAL when you are used to getting really steep on the downswing. Anything else will FEEL like you are really flat.

[pokerlife]

Range was closed today to cold .. I think i have it though .. Hips working much better

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a932frJ0wY

[HappyGolf]

[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357349933' post='6170503']
Range was closed today to cold .. I think i have it though .. Hips working much better

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a932frJ0wY[/media]
[/quote]

Your butt is lined up with that black filing cabinet behind you...... watch where your tush line is at impact (stop the vid at impact).

[OspreyCI]

I guess easier said than felt..

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1357359387' post='6171355']
[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357349933' post='6170503']
Range was closed today to cold .. I think i have it though .. Hips working much better

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a932frJ0wY[/media]
[/quote]

Your butt is lined up with that black filing cabinet behind you...... watch where your tush line is at impact (stop the vid at impact).
[/quote]
Sure you lost your tush line a little but that is wayyyy better. Now you are SWINGING! There are some other issues going on but forget that for now. Just ingrain tha feel of swinging and be prepared to fight reverting back to the hit instinct once you introduce a ball to the equation. You should not even try to hit a ball just yet. Make a ton of swings a day like that for a week or so. Start to imagine there is a ball there and simply allow it to be in the way when you swing. Once you do get to the range, ignore where the ball goes for the first few sessions. The most important thing is to not revert back to whacking at the ball. Ball position is key for this as it needs to be in the correct position so you can just swing and let it be in the right position to get pounded with the club. Be careful not to let your focus attach to the ball. Your focus is out in front of the ball where you are swinging. You are LOOKING at the ball but your focus is towards the target. Kinda like climbing stairs, you are looking at each step but your focus is out in front of you where you are going. Keep at it.

[pokerlife]

Thanks for the encouraging words Sponge.. I finally understand how the arms do nothing! All those Shawn Clement videos make sense now about how the arms are just dead weight being swung.
Still have to apply it with a ball but I should be able to handle that. Biggest feel for me that is new is applying force with left heel while back is still facing the target and letting the arms just kinda hover

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357370402' post='6171945']

Biggest feel for me that is new is applying force with left heel while back is still facing the target.
[/quote]
Bingo

[HappyGolf]

[quote name='thesponge' timestamp='1357363964' post='6171711']
Sure you lost your tush line a little but that is wayyyy better.
[/quote]

I agree that it's much better but wanted you aware that it's still happening.

Here's a thing... try this drill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySwyKwsWL0k

[b]THEN[/b] try it with your [b]hands in your pockets[/b] and just imagine you have the club across your chest like that and try to 'hit' the ball. It makes you more aware what's happening with your pelvis as you take the arms out of the equation... (note: it's [b]really hard[/b] to make a full turn without your shoulders 'rounding out'). You should feel your right hip going backwards and the left coming forwards, the right leg straightens On the downswing you can feel your hands wanting to keep your pelvis back.

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357284868' post='6165613']
Is a reason for early extension maybe caused from not getting the weight to the front leg?
At impact i feel like i have 60% of the weight on my front foot.. Is that not correct? I am swinging from the top before i transfer any weight.
[/quote]

No you should have more weight on the right foot at impact.
That is the main reason for your EE that your not moving[b] laterally enough[/b] which allows the pelvis to get where its suppose to.
or else the right pelvis has nothing to rotate around as it gets stuck and you loose the kinetic chain showing up as EE.
After impact there is more weight on the left foot indicating a proper transfer.

Montes analysis is correct.
I just add that your first move get you stuck and steep as you should move the left pelvis/stomach muscles laterally first then your chain will work.
and loosen up that grip of yours a bit also helps.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1357405185' post='6173077']
[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357284868' post='6165613']
Is a reason for early extension maybe caused from not getting the weight to the front leg?
At impact i feel like i have 60% of the weight on my front foot.. Is that not correct? I am swinging from the top before i transfer any weight.
[/quote]

No you should have more weight on the right foot at impact.
That is the main reason for your EE that your not moving[b] laterally enough[/b] which allows the pelvis to get where its suppose to.
or else the right pelvis has nothing to rotate around as it gets stuck and you loose the kinetic chain showing up as EE.
After impact there is more weight on the left foot indicating a proper transfer.

Montes analysis is correct.
I just add that your first move get you stuck and steep as you should move the left pelvis/stomach muscles laterally first then your chain will work.
and loosen up that grip of yours a bit also helps.
[/quote]
FYI..... My advice and floppers advice are non-compatible.

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357349933' post='6170503']
Range was closed today to cold .. I think i have it though .. Hips working much better

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a932frJ0wY[/media]
[/quote]

yea your still EE, thats why its so hard to get rid of without a camera, I never feel like Im EE but the camera shows different. You EE the same way I do in this video, hips move like this / even though it doesnt feel like it. Its the reason my shots have always started right, I then started closing the face on the way back like zach johnson

[pokerlife]

Every time I try the lateral move people talk about my left hip slides out from under me and the club would just come flopping through with no power.
I hold the club very loose all ready Flopper also not sure how you can tell my grip pressure from a video

How is your progress going Geoff? This is your thread and i don't want to overshadow you . Did you ever get the face on video?

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357418869' post='6174043']
Every time I try the lateral move people talk about my left hip slides out from under me and the club would just come flopping through with no power.
I hold the club very loose all ready Flopper also not sure how you can tell my grip pressure from a video

How is your progress going Geoff? This is your thread and i don't want to overshadow you . Did you ever get the face on video?
[/quote]

You are probably letting the upper body move laterally too and not getting any tilt at impact.

[RBImGuy]

[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357418869' post='6174043']
Every time I try the lateral move people talk about my left hip slides out from under me and the club would just come flopping through with no power.
I hold the club very loose all ready Flopper also not sure how you can tell my grip pressure from a video


[/quote]
if your sequence is out of order which it has to be to EE.
you need to compensate to much during the action and since your get out of time before impact you cant be loose in your grip or you hit it out of the planet. (I have as far never found any amatuer or pro having had to loose a grip)
to get the sequence working you listen to Monte nor any of the other guys since if there is anyone here who knows his stuff its him.
to have proper sequence working you need to understand what the body has to do and by far Monte can give such advice.

if you move the pelvis left and the upper body swing center isnt kept stable you wont have power nor able to correct the sequence due to your shifting the timing all the time.
built in flaws and compensations means you have trained your perception that some things has to happen for your swing to be as it is, and changing that wont work until you understand what you need to do and you havent as far done that.
(Monte is spot on again on that with his observation)

How the swing should feel when doing it right your missing out on and you rely on older perceptions.
Monte can correct those.
I personally find that people are taught wrong swing mechanics so its become an issue to fix and correct all the time, just ask Monte on that swingcrack stuff.
My instruction set been applied to 77 year old and 12 year old kids and it works better than their PGA style trainers. The 77 year old had seen 5 previous golf trainers this year.

I havent seen Monte being wrong about his observations yet but a few others are not so fortunate.
just my observation.

[WHC888]

[size=4][color=#000000]My score suffered big time this past summer because of EE, other than driver and putter, I was shanking every single club in my bag on the course or on the range. Confidence was no where to be found when I stood over the ball with iron in hand (long or short).[/color]

[color=#000000]Thanks to Monte, he gave me few pointers base on what he was seeing in my swing video. [/color]

[color=#000000]First video was my swing back in the summer 2012.[/color][/size]

[url="http://youtu.be/mxiD96nPGws"]http://youtu.be/mxiD96nPGws[/url]

[size=4][color=#000000]Second video was just a few days ago.[/color][/size]

[url="http://youtu.be/q1LhvUI_Rv8"]http://youtu.be/q1LhvUI_Rv8[/url]

[size=4][color=#000000]I think I made some improvement, what do you guys think? Anything else I could work on?[/color]

[color=#000000]Score definitely improved toward the end of 2012, and I can’t wait for the weather to warm up to have a killer season in 2013.[/color]

[color=#000000]Thanks Monte[/color][/size]

[MK7Golf21]

It doesnt look like you EE in any of those swings, old or new. The old one on the backswing you did go behind the tush line a little bit but then on the downswing you went back right on the tush line. No EE. It looks like you were shanking because you swung so in to out. A simple drill of putting something behind the ball like a cardboard box so that if you did swing in to out, you would hit the box with the club. Anyway here is the old swing at impact, as you can see, no EE but you did pull your head back to swing really in to out.
[attachment=1477467:guy1.jpg]

And here is the new swing at impact, No EE.

[attachment=1477469:guy2.jpg]

It looks like you arent swinging as in to out so it looks better. The video quality isnt all that great and I can't see the shaft on the downswing when going through the frames so I can't tell if its too steep or on plane now but it seems to look ok. How are your shots?

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1357434894' post='6175333']
to get the sequence working you listen to Monte nor any of the other guys since if there is anyone here who knows his stuff its him.
to have proper sequence working you need to understand what the body has to do and by far Monte can give such advice.

(Monte is spot on again on that with his observation)


I havent seen Monte being wrong about his observations yet but a few others are not so fortunate.
[/quote]


To whom it may concern, All previous posts can be searched and reviewed. Its a good idea to be consistent.


[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1342183644' post='5267526']
Like for example Monte who started to listen to the wrong people and then couldnt play.
[/quote]

[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1352997697' post='5938391']
I see monte scheinblum a really long hitter that was world champion in long driving and a nationwide player level went the modern swing route and ruined his swing, game and mental health along the way
[/quote]

[quote name='flopper' timestamp='1353348077' post='5954029']
[quote name='vision541' timestamp='1353344666' post='5953803']
Just curious ...which instructors have you found that satisfy your criteria...
[/quote]
They are all basically clueless.
Monte for example demonstrate here the hip turn.(youtube clip)
No power, two forces to balance and its not the hip that turns its the pelvis.
Now, Monte can hit it long, he won a world title 20 years ago the tube video at bottom.
He also is caught in the perception game where he discovers new things every week.
[/quote]

[WHC888]

It doesnt look like you EE in any of those swings, old or new. The old one on the backswing you did go behind the tush line a little bit but then on the downswing you went back right on the tush line. No EE. It looks like you were shanking because you swung so in to out. A simple drill of putting something behind the ball like a cardboard box so that if you did swing in to out, you would hit the box with the club. Anyway here is the old swing at impact, as you can see, no EE but you did pull your head back to swing really in to out.

 

And here is the new swing at impact, No EE.

 

It looks like you arent swinging as in to out so it looks better. The video quality isnt all that great and I can't see the shaft on the downswing when going through the frames so I can't tell if its too steep or on plane now but it seems to look ok. How are your shots?

 

OLD

 

NEW

 

Most of the time miss left, stock shot would be push draw.

[pokerlife]

Had a chance to goto the range Today and tried getting to the left side before swinging while the arms just drop.

Hit everything pretty good and pretty much the same distance as always but noticed my divots were longer and skinny . Not sure if that means i had the club coming in shallower and less steep no clue, Anyways here is a couple swings ..
Also this older friend of mine who used to own a driving range says that i have the club super laid off in the backswing and that could be part of the reason my sequence isnt correct


[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILIgNVWsKLA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILIgNVWsKLA[/url]

[MK7Golf21]

It doesnt look like you EE in any of those swings, old or new. The old one on the backswing you did go behind the tush line a little bit but then on the downswing you went back right on the tush line. No EE. It looks like you were shanking because you swung so in to out. A simple drill of putting something behind the ball like a cardboard box so that if you did swing in to out, you would hit the box with the club. Anyway here is the old swing at impact, as you can see, no EE but you did pull your head back to swing really in to out.

 

And here is the new swing at impact, No EE.

 

It looks like you arent swinging as in to out so it looks better. The video quality isnt all that great and I can't see the shaft on the downswing when going through the frames so I can't tell if its too steep or on plane now but it seems to look ok. How are your shots?

 

 

Most of the time miss left, stock shot would be push draw.

 

It doesnt look that bad to me but Im not an instructor. It would be helpful if you had a better video camera for this, need a few more frames on the downswing to see the plane.

 

btw, is that in your garage?

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357444331' post='6176149']
Had a chance to goto the range Today and tried getting to the left side before swinging while the arms just drop.

Hit everything pretty good and pretty much the same distance as always but noticed my divots were longer and skinny . Not sure if that means i had the club coming in shallower and less steep no clue, Anyways here is a couple swings ..
Also this older friend of mine who used to own a driving range says that i have the club super laid off in the backswing and that could be part of the reason my sequence isnt correct


[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILIgNVWsKLA[/media]
[/quote]

Swing looks better but you are still lusting for the goat!! Iwould seriously consider not hitting balls for a little while until you ingrain the feel of SWINGING!!!! Pay very close attention when shawn talks about the right hip remaining in place and forcing the left hip to turn.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggLTM9bfD54[/media]

As Monte says "get the left hip far from the ball in the down swing"...... The only way to do this is if the right hip stays put and forces it back. Otherwise the left hip stays where it is at the top of the swing and the right flys to the ball.

[pokerlife]

Was just checking my setup and everything out in the mirror and noticed my left knee is bent a little more than my right knee..
Guess what Im doing in my setup lol

Im bending from the waist slightly to the left to face the ball. Lol feel like a complete HACK! Once i setup proper the takeaway feels 100% different and my shoulder and hip turn is also different haha.. Probably explains a lot of my problems i hope ..

[Jon Robert]

2011 PGA show This was addressed in The Titleist Body Swing Connection seminar. It tells you why you do it and the 3 things required to allow for not doing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bk06DErc3rc

[aimleft]

The term early extension implies that there is in fact extension of the pelvis through impact. At the top of the backswing, the hips are in an extended state (less hip tilt vs impact). This is especially true for those with a centralized pivot on the backswing. What most would call EE is actually the result of the hips not going into their original flexion during the transition.


The 2nd issue discussed in the TPI video above (separation of upper and lower body) is the key to getting the hips back into flexion. The swing thought of crushing a can in the transition is often thrown about. I wonder how many people have actually tried to crush a can? When I tried it (not as easy as I thought) I immediately realized that the amount of pressure you have to exert will both slide the hip toward the target but also rotate them back to square and cause the hips to go into flexion.

Maybe some instructors can chime in with some info about how to get the hips into flexion on the DS and at what point one should actually start to extend through the shot.

[GeoffDickson]

[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357418869' post='6174043']
How is your progress going Geoff? This is your thread and i don't want to overshadow you . Did you ever get the face on video?
[/quote]

If it was just about me, I would not have shared my summary of Monte's advice. I am thrilled that others are getting some value out of this thread.

My swing has improved [u][i][b]alot [/b][/i][/u]already: I hit par for the first time in my life on the weekend (I am currently a 6 handicap). I had to sink this birdie putt on 18 to get back to even:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UpTaOfIUUE


A big thanks to Monte and Russc (for his advice/suggestions on stance).

Here is a face-on video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ham0FWgH0AQ


Here is a summary pf where my thinking is at:
1. My hips are OK (but not yet optimal).
2. My shoulder rotation can get too flat*, especially as the club gets longer. I hooked ALOT of drives on the weekend.
3 Lateral shift OK (but not yet optimal), but need to improve the extent to which the upper body stays back.
4. My biggest improvement will come from improve the 'dump' part of bump, dump and turn. I think I am too much of a hurry to hit the ball

* I did an interesting experiment/comparison last week. in the lounge room, I could get my shoulder turn to about 40* (at top of backswing) . Every backswing was above plane. In the practice nets, my shoulder plane was 30* and my backswing was always under plane. NOwithshading measurement/parralelax errors, it would appear that a key for getting a good backswing is a steep shoulder turn.

It seems that following formula applies to me: Flat shoulder turn = inside takeaway = death

[MonteScheinblum]

First time shooting par. What a great day. Seeing the excitement of that putt sneaking in the side door was great. Couldn't even keep your hat on.

No you have first time breaking par and first time in the 60's...or you could kill two birds with one stone.

Then you could write a blog post for me.

"How to transition from sexually assaulting goats to shooting in the 60's"...by Geoff Dickson

Sounds like the title of a best seller...whoever came up with goat humping sure is one sick individual...lol.

[ALIF]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1357530257' post='6181553']
First time shooting par. What a great day. Seeing the excitement of that putt sneaking in the side door was great. Couldn't even keep your hat on.

No you have first time breaking par and first time in the 60's...or you could kill two birds with one stone.

Then you could write a blog post for me.

"How to transition from sexually assaulting goats to shooting in the 60's"...by Geoff Dickson

Sounds like the title of a best seller...whoever came up with goat humping sure is one sick individual...lol.
[/quote]

I'm just laughing to death after reading the title of that new best-seller!

[GeoffDickson]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1357530257' post='6181553']

"How to transition from sexually assaulting goats to shooting in the 60's"...by Geoff Dickson

[/quote]

For the first time ever, the smile on my face is bigger than the goat's.