Eliminating early extension - once and for all

[iteachgolf]

By turning. The arms are really only moving from the center of your body to the right side of your body. The rest of the depth is created by turning and the face you stand to the side of the ball. If you create the depth by having your arms move behind you it's trouble. If arms got to same place but did so by making a deeper turn the arms would beach more in front of you. I think people misinterpret depth and how much the arms move inward in relation to the body and how much of that is created by turning.

Setup in your posture with arms hanging at your side. Fold right arm vertically 90* (think FSU chop). Now turn 90* and add left arm as if you're holding a club and look in a mirror. Now think about how little the right arm is moving to get to that position.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='swanry30' timestamp='1358115565' post='6221357']
What is the relation of the right elbow and right hip at the top of the swing? It is still possible to take hands deep into the bs keeping the club on plane. From what I'm understanding - the elbow can't get lost too deep and run off causing the club to go across the line. Obviously the arms shouldn't work away on the bs. So how do the hands to in without going behind?
[/quote]

That is why the transition is so important. If you restricted the hip turn in the backswing, spin them out in transition, or poor shift, the elbow has no time or room to get in front.

Deep hip turn, good shift in transition. Here are two videos that will help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW9ZCeA19vs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HmT4LN--3g&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[GeoffDickson]

[quote name='kenwiggins11' timestamp='1358113981' post='6221239']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1358113330' post='6221177']
Elbow leading the hands and in front of right hip. Think side arm pitch
[/quote]
One other question. Side arm pitch on bs correct?
[/quote]
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1358114620' post='6221281']
Side arm pitch as in elbow leading hands and elbow in front of right hip
[/quote]

During the downswing.
Iteach refers to side arm pitch...others refer to skimming a stone across a pond. Same thing.

[GeoffDickson]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1358114620' post='6221281']
Side arm pitch as in elbow leading hands and elbow in front of right hip
[/quote]

Elbow leading the hands = lightbulb moment. Thanks Iteach.

Just shadow golfing in the office at the moment and this makes a massive difference to getting the shaft more shallow.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1358095779' post='6219913']
The reason people can do it in practice swings and not full swings has zero to do with a hit impulse or any other bs. Most early extend because they have to, if they didn't they'd shank it. The reason it changes with a ball is because they actually have to make contact. In a practice swing that doesn't early extend I'm betting the clubhead is further away at impact than it was at address. You can't shank grass though so you won't standup.
[/quote]
If this were true wouldn't it be as simple as a ball position issue? So you don't think a hit impulse could get one in a position to where they must EE to make contact? Not being confrontational btw, just asking .

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='thesponge' timestamp='1358120550' post='6221773']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1358095779' post='6219913']
The reason people can do it in practice swings and not full swings has zero to do with a hit impulse or any other bs. Most early extend because they have to, if they didn't they'd shank it. The reason it changes with a ball is because they actually have to make contact. In a practice swing that doesn't early extend I'm betting the clubhead is further away at impact than it was at address. You can't shank grass though so you won't standup.
[/quote]
If this were true wouldn't it be as simple as a ball position issue? So you don't think a hit impulse could get one in a position to where they must EE to make contact? Not being confrontational btw, just asking .
[/quote]
No it's not a ball position issue at all. It's not a hit issue. It's a fact that they'd miss the ball entirely or shank it. The EE is what actually allows them to play golf. It's not a hit impulse but an athletic move to be able to make contact. It's a reaction. Get rid of the need for EE and the EE will no longer happen. Create a scenario where you need to regain flexion and stay in flexion in order to make contact and goodbye EE. Again EE is an effect never a direct cause. You'll never fix it by trying to treat it directly, you have to treat the cause.

[bogeypro]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1358116592' post='6221433']
[quote name='swanry30' timestamp='1358115565' post='6221357']
What is the relation of the right elbow and right hip at the top of the swing? It is still possible to take hands deep into the bs keeping the club on plane. From what I'm understanding - the elbow can't get lost too deep and run off causing the club to go across the line. Obviously the arms shouldn't work away on the bs. So how do the hands to in without going behind?
[/quote]

That is why the transition is so important. If you restricted the hip turn in the backswing, spin them out in transition, or poor shift, the elbow has no time or room to get in front.

Deep hip turn, good shift in transition. Here are two videos that will help.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW9ZCeA19vs&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/media]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HmT4LN--3g&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/media]
[/quote]

of all the stuff discussed and stickied on this forum, the bump, dump, turn video should be the very first and only one. That is what I am preaching! It is simple and easy to understand. Too many people want to overcomplicate the golf swing.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1358122009' post='6221893']
[quote name='thesponge' timestamp='1358120550' post='6221773']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1358095779' post='6219913']
The reason people can do it in practice swings and not full swings has zero to do with a hit impulse or any other bs. Most early extend because they have to, if they didn't they'd shank it. The reason it changes with a ball is because they actually have to make contact. In a practice swing that doesn't early extend I'm betting the clubhead is further away at impact than it was at address. You can't shank grass though so you won't standup.
[/quote]
If this were true wouldn't it be as simple as a ball position issue? So you don't think a hit impulse could get one in a position to where they must EE to make contact? Not being confrontational btw, just asking .
[/quote]
Get rid of the need for EE and the EE will no longer happen.
[/quote]
Completely agree. But the way I see it, a hit impulse can create the need for EE. A hit impulse can get the club and body going in all kinds of wrong directions, leading to EE. I didn't mean the hit impulse itself caused EE.

[J13]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1358122009' post='6221893']
[quote name='thesponge' timestamp='1358120550' post='6221773']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1358095779' post='6219913']
The reason people can do it in practice swings and not full swings has zero to do with a hit impulse or any other bs. Most early extend because they have to, if they didn't they'd shank it. The reason it changes with a ball is because they actually have to make contact. In a practice swing that doesn't early extend I'm betting the clubhead is further away at impact than it was at address. You can't shank grass though so you won't standup.
[/quote]
If this were true wouldn't it be as simple as a ball position issue? So you don't think a hit impulse could get one in a position to where they must EE to make contact? Not being confrontational btw, just asking .
[/quote]
Get rid of the need for EE and the EE will no longer happen. Create a scenario where you need to regain flexion and stay in flexion in order to make contact and goodbye EE. Again EE is an effect never a direct cause. You'll never fix it by trying to treat it directly, you have to treat the cause.
[/quote]

And there it is. Great advice Dan. On point brotha

[HappyGolf]

This is my lame effort of a video.....

Feel free to disagree...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRbN73hoZKQ

[ALIF]

[quote name='thesponge' timestamp='1357179006' post='6156865']
[quote name='pokerlife' timestamp='1357169902' post='6155997']
just recorded myself at a different angle almost standing straight up and i even early extend on the backswing standing. The rest of you guys should record yourself to and see if the issue is still there. Been painting the kitchen all day is the reason for the mess

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNLn34Imvzo[/media]
[/quote]

Your right hip is flying towards where the ball would be. When people say "swing around your left leg" it causes people to do this. If you use your rear end to counter-weight the club head your right hip will not move toward the ball and will force your left hip to clear THEN you can turn around the left leg.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggLTM9bfD54[/media]
[/quote]

This Shawn Clement video was what finally made the lightbulb click for me. Of course b/c of Monte's videos my finger was already on the switch:). EE is like iteach stated "an athletic move to allow you to hit the ball". If the body doesn't get out of the way, the arms will crash into it. EE is a compensatory mechanism to allow the body to clear out of the way of the arms. The best way to do this is explained by the video.

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1358122009' post='6221893']
[quote name='thesponge' timestamp='1358120550' post='6221773']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1358095779' post='6219913']
The reason people can do it in practice swings and not full swings has zero to do with a hit impulse or any other bs. Most early extend because they have to, if they didn't they'd shank it. The reason it changes with a ball is because they actually have to make contact. In a practice swing that doesn't early extend I'm betting the clubhead is further away at impact than it was at address. You can't shank grass though so you won't standup.
[/quote]
If this were true wouldn't it be as simple as a ball position issue? So you don't think a hit impulse could get one in a position to where they must EE to make contact? Not being confrontational btw, just asking .
[/quote]
No it's not a ball position issue at all. It's not a hit issue. It's a fact that they'd miss the ball entirely or shank it. The EE is what actually allows them to play golf. It's not a hit impulse but an athletic move to be able to make contact. It's a reaction. Get rid of the need for EE and the EE will no longer happen. Create a scenario where you need to regain flexion and stay in flexion in order to make contact and goodbye EE. Again EE is an effect never a direct cause. You'll never fix it by trying to treat it directly, you have to treat the cause.
[/quote]

Thanks again iteach for your help with this swing issue, you nailed it on my EE problem.

[GeoffDickson]

I went out for twilight game last night with two swing thoughts: 1) full shoulder turn 2) more weight on heels at address. The seed for the latter was planted by a poster on this thread last week. Video highlighted that at top of backswing I roll/lean forward towards ball....is it any wonder I end up with EE after getting steep?

...anyways i fired a 2 under par round (off the front tees).

Moral of the story: big shoulder turn and more weight on heels at address.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

another video that i believe helps eliminate ee. a lot of talk about the left hip and obviously that is key, but this video helps with another thought. for me, trying to bump and turn the left hip worked on the range but would slowly get back to old habits while playing, and the focus on the right shoulder under the chin was helpful.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHNGzkxtBjw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHNGzkxtBjw[/url]

[kurlin]

[media=420x315]http://youtu.be/sgRjCoG6r3Y[/media]
[media=420x315]http://youtu.be/-x5rukG2Pzc[/media]





This is after three days of work. Worked on more balance, deeper hip turn, and reintroduce more of a shift in the transition.


I'm still not sure how to shallow out the plane anymore.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='kurlin' timestamp='1358311967' post='6237583']
[media=420x315]http://youtu.be/sgRjCoG6r3Y[/media]
[media=420x315]http://youtu.be/-x5rukG2Pzc[/media]





This is after three days of work. Worked on more balance, deeper hip turn, and reintroduce more of a shift in the transition.


I'm still not sure how to shallow out the plane anymore.
[/quote]

That's not bad at all. The sequence is just a hair off. You have to resist the hit impulse and allow the shift to happen first. You pull the club to the ball first.

I try to tell people to be more patient in the transition. It's not pausing, it's just how you initiate the downswing.

It's not an easy thing to do and probably what separates good players from great players at each level of of.

[RIVER RAT]

I like the way this guy explains WHY we early extend in the downswing....it has help me tremendously.....

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un_DJ977sMc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un_DJ977sMc[/url]

[OspreyCI]

[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1358128006' post='6222565']
This is my lame effort of a video.....

Feel free to disagree...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRbN73hoZKQ
[/quote]
Stack and Tilt spine angle right?

[Dave D]

[quote name='RIVER RAT' timestamp='1358388219' post='6242899']
I like the way this guy explains WHY we early extend in the downswing....it has help me tremendously.....

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un_DJ977sMc[/media]
[/quote]
i like the way he explains this and this way of describing it i understand better than shift the weight and turn the hips, if i feel i shift my actual weight to the front foot, my upper body goes too then ive got to EE in order not to hit a foot behind it and try and get some sort of trajectory on it

[pokerlife]

Little update..
Tried bumping the hips like Monte talks about and had some of the best ball striking ever tonight. Something i notice is if i bump the left hip to fast or hard i tend to hit the ball thin..
When I hit it solid it feels as if im bumping the left hip very slow and about 4 inches.. Also once I feel the bump the ball is all ready gone i dont really see where i have time to apply the hands and arms .. Is that normal? Here is the best shot i hit all night .



[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4riK0q8QJCU[/media]

[pokerlife]

Hmm i think i just realized what you mean by i turn my shoulders incorrect Monte. I notice mine run into my head so i just watched a video of Jim Furik hitting a driver and i can really see how the shoulders go under the head and the left shoulder goes more down then around!

will get some new video tomorrow !

[RIVER RAT]

All those struggling with EE should take heart...even the G.O.A.T humped dat goat:

[CrisPy3]

Just to clarify and elaborate on Dan's (iteach) point about right elbow position, pitch, etc. Here's a video that will get anyone and everyone into the perfect position with their elbows at the top...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI5OZ9SgaCU&list=UU01DzXmqZvrd6nuVZpUa9hg&index=26

And notice how the golfer is "turning the corner" (as Dan mentioned) in his follow through... and [b]NOT early extending. [/b]

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='RIVER RAT' timestamp='1358540510' post='6255017']
All those struggling with EE should take heart...even the G.O.A.T humped dat goat:
[/quote]

I think we are onto something here, maybe EE is a good thing, haha

[GeoffDickson]

I was just exploring the full capabilities of Ubersense and was able to produce this image of my swing at address and impact.

[Braveone]

I've been struggling with EE because of my steep plane. I don't think I'm OTT just steep and I've been told if I learn to shallow my downswing path I should be able to remove the EE.
I am guilty of "pulling the handle" and could do with being a little closer to the ball.
I think I have an idea of what I need to do but any suggestions would be great.

Here's my swing at the moment, I filmed this thinking everything was ok as my striking is quite good. Only on playback did I notice the EE.

What do you guys think?

http://youtu.be/ZLO-5bMp7ZM

[Gurks]

Hey folks,

Been following this thread over the past few weeks since I've also set eliminating EE as my main goal before the season starts again here in spring.

I've found this tip on left knee rotation to be very effective:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfP2nXKcSHg[/media]

I start rotating the left knee towards the target before my backswing finishes then keep it moving back - this takes care of the 'bump' step in Monte's bump/dump/turn solution. As the left knee moves further back, the dump happens with it - then it's just a case of turning everything through together, making sure the right shoulder is turning under the chin. Monte's advice about resisting the urge to hit at the top of the backswing and delay until the left side has cleared a bit is a good thought.

My ball striking has improved hugely and ball flight (previously too low for my liking, especially with long irons) is now much higher due to staying down and behind the ball at impact.

Hope this helps - good luck!

[oliversax]

I've been following this thread for a while now, since I've been an EE practitioner for 20 years. LOL. I"ve taken a myriad of lessons and no one has really addressed the problem directly. I've views at the great tips posted here, but none of them seem to fix my EE.

I wholly believe that EE is a result of some other swing flaws and I cannot fix it directly with out fixing the 'cause' of EE in the 1st place.

A bit about me, I'm a 5 hdcp'er but extremely erratic, I can lose up to 10 balls/round. thus I can shoot in the 70s or 100s, depending on how my timing is that day. My usual ball flight is a draw or pull draw, my misses tend to be 'the hook from hell' or shanks/heel hits.

My swing flaws seem to be:
- taking the club back too fast
- closing the club face at the top by bowing and twisting my wrist in a weird way
- crossing the line at the top

So by trying not hook it off the planet, I do these compensating moves to shallow out the club at impact:
- EE/goat hump
- Sliding my hips towards the target too much
- Extending my wrist angle to where the club much more upright at impact than at address (hands much farther from body at impact than at address)

Here are the videos of my swing:
DTL
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBZGcrnMZw4[/media]

Face on
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrSBSg2tnNA[/media]

I have a tendency to adjust to the club pretty well, for example, I can hit a 13* driver and a 8.5* driver the same height. Same with a 6i and 9i. So if I go to the root cause, which is a bad backswing, I'm hoping to fix my downswing and eliminating EE.

So here are my questions to those of you who have successfully fixed your EE:
- How long did it take you to fix it?
- Did it improve your ball striking, more GIR?
- Did the changes stick or do you revert back to your old 'goat humping' ways from time to time?
- We all have good days and bad days, are the bad days better than before you fixed your EE?

Thanks to all the helpful posts here, as I'm looking for my 'magic bullet' to kill my EE once and for all.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='oliversax' timestamp='1358954783' post='6282463']
I've been following this thread for a while now, since I've been an EE practitioner for 20 years. LOL. I"ve taken a myriad of lessons and no one has really addressed the problem directly. I've views at the great tips posted here, but none of them seem to fix my EE.

I wholly believe that EE is a result of some other swing flaws and I cannot fix it directly with out fixing the 'cause' of EE in the 1st place.

A bit about me, I'm a 5 hdcp'er but extremely erratic, I can lose up to 10 balls/round. thus I can shoot in the 70s or 100s, depending on how my timing is that day. My usual ball flight is a draw or pull draw, my misses tend to be 'the hook from hell' or shanks/heel hits.

My swing flaws seem to be:
- taking the club back too fast
- closing the club face at the top by bowing and twisting my wrist in a weird way
- crossing the line at the top

So by trying not hook it off the planet, I do these compensating moves to shallow out the club at impact:
- EE/goat hump
- Sliding my hips towards the target too much
- Extending my wrist angle to where the club much more upright at impact than at address (hands much farther from body at impact than at address)


I have a tendency to adjust to the club pretty well, for example, I can hit a 13* driver and a 8.5* driver the same height. Same with a 6i and 9i. So if I go to the root cause, which is a bad backswing, I'm hoping to fix my downswing and eliminating EE.

So here are my questions to those of you who have successfully fixed your EE:
- How long did it take you to fix it?
- Did it improve your ball striking, more GIR?
- Did the changes stick or do you revert back to your old 'goat humping' ways from time to time?
- We all have good days and bad days, are the bad days better than before you fixed your EE?

Thanks to all the helpful posts here, as I'm looking for my 'magic bullet' to kill my EE once and for all.
[/quote]

Good looking swing. Dont see the major EE, but You are steepening the shaft in transition. When you shift you need to let the head fall. In the DTL video, you want the butt of the club to not point so far inside the ball.

In this video, what I say about the right elbow would pertain to your left. This movement will help you shallow the club even though you don't hit a slice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woyBu5MOu04&sns=em

[sonofagunn]

Monte, in that video you are talking about a cure for a pull-slice - but if someone needs to shallow their club in transition but currently hit pushes and hooks, are they going to make it worse, or is there are different piece that will also have to change?