Greatest male player ever

[isaacbm]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381534628' post='7989393']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1381507334' post='7987209']
[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381503473' post='7986779']
Just off the top of my head I looked at the 1981 US Ryder Cup team. Please, give me a break. We will never have teams with that much talent again.
[/quote]

Really? Look at the euro team. Bet there's 5 guys on it you've never heard of. At the time of playing, not one player on the team had ever won a major. Nice COMPETITION!!
[/quote]

I was not looking at the Euro Team that booted Seve anyway. The point was 49 majors and Lietzke.
[/quote]they didn't actually have that many majors at the time of playing....
This years team in fact had almost as many majors at the time of playing...
This presidents cup had 33 majors between all the players. The 81 Ryder cup had 36 majors between all of the players

The problem with comparing eras is that Jack didn't compete against all of those greats for his entire career. And we have the benefit of seeing the fruition of all of their careers. A lot if tigers comp are not finished yet.

[tstephen]

Ok - we will never see The US Team with that many greats again with 33 major titles. Everyone on this thread keeps talking world-wide greatness of players today. Truth is, international players are more inconsistent than Americans and that shows with their lone victory in The President's Cup.

[gusmahler]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381594313' post='7991797']
Ok - we will never see The US Team with that many greats again with 33 major titles. Everyone on this thread keeps talking world-wide greatness of players today. Truth is, international players are more inconsistent than Americans and that shows with their lone victory in The President's Cup.
[/quote]And the Euros have won 10 of the last 14 Ryder Cups. Maybe the Euros are stronger than the "International" team?

[nochct1]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381594313' post='7991797']
Ok - we will never see The US Team with that many greats again with 33 major titles. Everyone on this thread keeps talking world-wide greatness of players today. Truth is, international players are more inconsistent than Americans and that shows with their lone victory in The President's Cup.
[/quote]

In jacks day there weren't enough good players competing to even have both a Ryder cup and presidents cup.

[tstephen]

[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1381608681' post='7992351']
[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381594313' post='7991797']
Ok - we will never see The US Team with that many greats again with 33 major titles. Everyone on this thread keeps talking world-wide greatness of players today. Truth is, international players are more inconsistent than Americans and that shows with their lone victory in The President's Cup.
[/quote]

In jacks day there weren't enough good players competing to even have both a Ryder cup and presidents cup.
[/quote]

They're pretty much the same US teams ace.

Good come back. Wow, another really knowledgeable Tiger fan. The International Teams from the 60's, 70's, & early 80's would not have done much worse than 1 win. Player, Charles, De Vicenzo, Thompson, Aoki, Nagle, Devlin, Marsh, Crampton, Ozaki Bros, Nakajima, Graham, Knudson, Norman, Newton, and others would have won at least 1.

Speaking of international players, looks like Vijay is having an easier go of it on the regular tour now having tried his luck on The Champions Tour.

[nochct1]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381613765' post='7992561']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1381608681' post='7992351']
[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381594313' post='7991797']
Ok - we will never see The US Team with that many greats again with 33 major titles. Everyone on this thread keeps talking world-wide greatness of players today. Truth is, international players are more inconsistent than Americans and that shows with their lone victory in The President's Cup.
[/quote]

In jacks day there weren't enough good players competing to even have both a Ryder cup and presidents cup.
[/quote]

They're pretty much the same US teams ace.

Good come back. Wow, another really knowledgeable Tiger fan. The International Teams from the 60's, 70's, & early 80's would not have done much worse than 1 win. Player, Charles, De Vicenzo, Thompson, Aoki, Nagle, Devlin, Marsh, Crampton, Ozaki Bros, Nakajima, Graham, Knudson, Norman, Newton, and others would have won at least 1.

Speaking of international players, looks like Vijay is having an easier go of it on the regular tour now having tried his luck on a The Champions Tour.
[/quote]

Player and Norman on the same team? Do you think the pga your was global during jacks 25 year career?

Do you actually believe any of the stuff that you write?

[tstephen]

Never said they would be dominant, but would win at least once.

I did say 60's, 70's, and early 80's, too.

So yes, Player in the 60's and 70's

And Greg Norman in the early 80's

Maybe Moe Norman in the 60's

Player could more than hold his own in the early 80's from a guy that does not care any more for Player than for Tiger.

[tstephen]

[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1381635390' post='7993817']
[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381613765' post='7992561']
[quote name='nochct1' timestamp='1381608681' post='7992351']
[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381594313' post='7991797']
Ok - we will never see The US Team with that many greats again with 33 major titles. Everyone on this thread keeps talking world-wide greatness of players today. Truth is, international players are more inconsistent than Americans and that shows with their lone victory in The President's Cup.
[/quote]

In jacks day there weren't enough good players competing to even have both a Ryder cup and presidents cup.
[/quote]

They're pretty much the same US teams ace.

Good come back. Wow, another really knowledgeable Tiger fan. The International Teams from the 60's, 70's, & early 80's would not have done much worse than 1 win. Player, Charles, De Vicenzo, Thompson, Aoki, Nagle, Devlin, Marsh, Crampton, Ozaki Bros, Nakajima, Graham, Knudson, Norman, Newton, and others would have won at least 1.

Speaking of international players, looks like Vijay is having an easier go of it on the regular tour now having tried his luck on a The Champions Tour.
[/quote]

Player and Norman on the same team? Do you think the pga your was global during jacks 25 year career?

Do you actually believe any of the stuff that you write?
[/quote]

Nice 2nd question. Is that English? I think I would answer it -YES.

[JustTheTips]

Euros are stronger than the americans much less the international team. Golf is still a niche game in most of the world. The International team right now is pretty much a bunch of aussies and south africans with a few other guys. In 10 years I expect a wave of Chinese (Look at the 16 years olds) and South Koreans to make the events more competitive.

[quote name='gusmahler' timestamp='1381598928' post='7991987']
[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381594313' post='7991797']
Ok - we will never see The US Team with that many greats again with 33 major titles. Everyone on this thread keeps talking world-wide greatness of players today. Truth is, international players are more inconsistent than Americans and that shows with their lone victory in The President's Cup.
[/quote]And the Euros have won 10 of the last 14 Ryder Cups. Maybe the Euros are stronger than the "International" team?
[/quote]

[gusmahler]

[quote name='JustTheTips' timestamp='1381762188' post='7999099']
Euros are stronger than the americans much less the international team. Golf is still a niche game in most of the world. The International team right now is pretty much a bunch of aussies and south africans with a few other guys. In 10 years I expect a wave of Chinese (Look at the 16 years olds) and South Koreans to make the events more competitive.

[quote name='gusmahler' timestamp='1381598928' post='7991987']
[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381594313' post='7991797']
Ok - we will never see The US Team with that many greats again with 33 major titles. Everyone on this thread keeps talking world-wide greatness of players today. Truth is, international players are more inconsistent than Americans and that shows with their lone victory in The President's Cup.
[/quote]And the Euros have won 10 of the last 14 Ryder Cups. Maybe the Euros are stronger than the "International" team?
[/quote]
[/quote]
Yes, this is known to everyone apparently except tstephen. The point people are making isn't that "International" players, as defined by the President's Cup, are stronger than they were in Jack's day, but that [b]non-American[/b] players are stronger today than Jack's day.

[tstephen]

I guess we can thank Tiger for our stellar performance at The Ryder Cups.

And we can thank Seve for the re-birth of The Euros.
Seve's 1st major win was in 1979, 7 years before Jack's last.

1979 to 1995 - The Masters, The Open, The PGA by foreign players = 25 wins.

1996 to 2012 - For those 3 majors by foreigners = 20. So 25 to 20 older time span.

In those same years for The US Open 8 - 2 for more the recent span.
So even with the overwhelming recent US Open wins by foreigners, the grand total
in majors has only increased 1 player from the time Jack still won 3 of his 18 majors.

1926 to 1993 only 3 foreign US Open wins.
10 of the last 20 wins by foreign players.
The US Open is only place in golf that reflects stronger foreign competition in Tiger's era.

I could have just said The Euros are better sports and more supportive of one another, too!

[gusmahler]

We're talking about primes here. I think even the most rabid Jack fan would admit that 1979 to 1995 was not Jack's prime.

From 1996 to 2012, Tiger won 74 tournaments.
From 1979 to 1995, Jack won 5 tournaments.

[Frankie Lob Wedge]

[quote name='gusmahler' timestamp='1381809455' post='8003057']
We're talking about primes here. I think even the most rabid Jack fan would admit that 1979 to 1995 was not Jack's prime.

From 1996 to 2012, Tiger won 74 tournaments.
From 1979 to 1995, Jack won 5 tournaments.
[/quote]

Jack had a bum hip and did not have modern medicine like Tiger does. Ditto Ben Hogan who's body was destroyed in a nightmarish car crash with a Greyhound bus.

[gusmahler]

Interesting, but completely irrelevant.

I'm talking about tstephen trying to prove that non-Americans were stronger in Jack's prime than they are in Tiger's prime by using data that's not from Jack's prime.

[tstephen]

Jack's prime Player and Thompson
Tiger's prime Vijay and Ernie

My buddy Brock would rank the 2 greats from Jack's prime higher.

[sefus12]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381859991' post='8005601']
Jack's prime Player and Thompson
Tiger's prime Vijay and Ernie

My buddy Brock would rank the 2 greats from Jack's prime higher.
[/quote]

That's neat and all but the main point MANY on here are making is that the field as a whole are stronger and more people are capable of winning. Last I checked, neither Tiger or Jack played in tourneys with only 2 other players in them...

[Frankie Lob Wedge]

One guy who might have really given Jack a run for his money was Tony Lema.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Lema

The saddest story in golf along with Payne Stewart and maybe one or two others. He was a Marine and a made in the hard way.

[tstephen]

The foreign players of Seve's era were world #1s and won multiple majors unlike those of Tiger's era.

Jack played against players that won majors and more majors. Hence, Jack's 19 major 2nds.

[beast400]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381867389' post='8006217']
The foreign players of Seve's era were world #1s and won multiple majors unlike those of Tiger's era.

Jack played against players that won majors and more majors. Hence, Jack's 19 major 2nds.
[/quote]im just going out on a limb here and say that is probably because the competition wasn't as strong were average players can win multiple majors in jacks era. now with tigers era the players are a lot better hence it is tougher for golfers to win multiple majors. its not rocket science to figure that out, but you seem like your having a hard to grasping that concept.

[tstephen]

The harder concept for you to grasp is the inconsistency of the players today. Tiger said it of himself just after his final round in The Tour Championship. Sad thing is that Tiger is the most consistent. Sadder still is that he does not realize that his consistency is only the best because of Torrey, Bay Hill, Muirfield Village, and Firestone.

Rory plays his best he wins........Played well once this year
Tiger plays his best he wins........Home course & Casey help
Phil plays his best he wins..........Phil is The Man at majors

Maybe when
Dufner plays his best he wins......2014 another major or 2
Adam plays his best he wins.......2014 another major or 2

Stricker was the most consistent this year without a win
Stenson was the best ball striker and he prevailed with $10 mill


This looks like 6 guys to me competing for the whole enchilada.

So I left out Rose, Kuchar, and Sneds. Hopefully, they will surprise me but I doubt it.

[tstephen]

[quote name='Frankie Lob Wedge' timestamp='1381864613' post='8005947']
One guy who might have really given Jack a run for his money was Tony Lema.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Lema

The saddest story in golf along with Payne Stewart and maybe one or two others. He was a Marine and a made in the hard way.
[/quote]

Jack finished 2nd to Lema at The 1964 Open. Miller and Venturi were from SF too but Lema might have been the best.

Jack's 37 top two's in majors is golf's greatest record. Nobody else is close. The guys he lost to were greats of the game including 3 great foreign players Seve, Player, and DiVicenzo. Not to mention that 10 of his 19 2nds were at the hands of Palmer, Trevino, and Watson. The other 6 players Jack finished 2nd behind were Sutton, Miller, Lema, Nichols, Marr, and Coody. The 6 players Tiger has finished 2nd behind were Zack, Angel, Beam, Yang, Michael, and Trevor all from the current incredibly great era of so many great golfers that I would easily pick the latter 6 of Jack's era over them any day of the week x 2 on Sunday. Tiger finished 2nd to Sutton as well at The Players "be the right one today."

[sefus12]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381893980' post='8008641']
The harder concept for you to grasp is the inconsistency of the players today. Tiger said it of himself just after his final round in The Tour Championship. Sad thing is that Tiger is the most consistent. Sadder still is that he does not realize that his consistency is only the best because of Torrey, Bay Hill, Muirfield Village, and Firestone.

Rory plays his best he wins........Played well once this year
Tiger plays his best he wins........Home course & Casey help
Phil plays his best he wins..........Phil is The Man at majors

Maybe when
Dufner plays his best he wins......2014 another major or 2
Adam plays his best he wins.......2014 another major or 2

Stricker was the most consistent this year without a win
Stenson was the best ball striker and he prevailed with $10 mill


This looks like 6 guys to me competing for the whole enchilada.

So I left out Rose, Kuchar, and Sneds. Hopefully, they will surprise me but I doubt it.
[/quote]

Wow.

We all know you're "grasping at straws" with some of your arguments (i'm being nice with that one), but saying there are maybe 6 guys that are "competing for the whole enchilada" shows you really don't understand the deeper field thing. There are stats to show that there are more players today capable of winning (I pointed them out earlier... you conveniently didn't respond). That means, when more players are capable of winning, there are going to be less guys that dominate. There are still players that will win when they are playing their "A" games, but now days one of the best player's "B" game likely won't be good enough to beat a middle-of-the-pack player's "A" game. If you can't understand that, which it's quite apparent you can't, there's not much of a reason to continue trying to convince you.

[rjp322]

Leaves out one of the 4 guys that won a major this year. Typical tstephen fashion. God how are you guys still responding to this delusional person

[gusmahler]

[quote name='rjp322' timestamp='1381936371' post='8010117']
Leaves out one of the 4 guys that won a major this year. Typical tstephen fashion. God how are you guys still responding to this delusional person
[/quote]I'm basically treating his posts as a "point out the glaring flaw in logic" puzzle.

[fowlerscousin]

Tiger is the most dominant player in the modern era, and he isnt even one of the top 5 ball strikers! According to a recent wrx thread, thats how good he is.

[tstephen]

Tiger's putting and short have been the inconsistent part of his game this year. And his driving sucks. He did pass Jack in his top 10 finishes in majors. Oh yeah, his top 10's finally passed Jack's top 2's(38-37).

Who will have the best 2014, Ricky(not Barnes) or Rory? Will either of them have more than the 5 top 10's they had in 2013?

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='fowlerscousin' timestamp='1381942514' post='8010751']
Tiger is the most dominant player in the modern era, and he isnt even one of the top 5 ball strikers! According to a recent wrx thread, thats how good he is.
[/quote]

Tiger is a horrible ball striker

Look at his AoA and his P5.

If only golf was played on Trackman...

[tstephen]

He looked a little embarrassed about the -5 with the driver. Was that the low cut or the high left pop-up?

[bscinstnct]

Stay tuned

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kInrDtEU9pU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[gusmahler]

[quote name='tstephen' timestamp='1381867389' post='8006217']
The foreign players of Seve's era were world #1s and won multiple majors unlike those of Tiger's era.
[/quote]Apparently, you've never heard of Rory McIlroy or Vijay Singh.

And why are you talking about Seve's era anyway? I thought Jack was the Greatest?