Brandel reappears on Golf Channel

[farmer]

Jamboy, excellent post. Kelly, BC is not an employee of TW, nor is TW a client of the GC. There was an incident years ago where some talking head said something critical of Greg Norman, Who then dispatched some of his "people" to visit the offending party. Tiger refused to talk to Peter Kostis because of a perceived slight. If you can't stand the limelight, get out of the limelight.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='tbowles411' timestamp='1383239738' post='8084090']
I'm retired military and am now in a private company. I've pretty much seen it all; high ranking officials down to the lowest worker bee. I've seen hard working and brilliant people who can't keep their pants up or legs closed and wrong their spouses. But that doesn't mean they deserve public scorn when they do their job even though we don't like it. Are there whispers? Sure. But not outright indignation or even anger because it doesn't affect any one of us personally. As long as they do their jobs, it's none of our business. People may hate that fact or even disagree, but like I said, I've seen it all, and nothing much surprises me anymore.

But back to the initial issue, people can't get over the fact that BC simply was wrong to call him a cheater with nothing more than an opinion backing him up. He's free to say it, but when all hell is unleashed, he had to expect a response. It wasn't angry, but "as a matter of fact."
[/quote]

My experience in the work world, matches yours.

I've run into a LOT of people whom I wouldn't want to have as an in-law...or would want to have anything to do with once I leave work. But they do their jobs, and realize that their personal lives are none of my business....and as long as it doesn't affect their work, it needs to stay NONE of my business. Even with some whom I consider to be marginally ethical, I don't go assassinating their character unless I've got concrete evidence to back it up.

Bottomline, is that BC wasn't even making a principled stand here. Had this been a one-time incident, I might have been willing to give him that benefit-of-the-doubt. But this is just the lastest in a PERSISTENT pattern on his part to position himself as the "next Johnny Miller" among analysts. To increase his public profile at Woods' expense. However, if you make a habit of "working the line", you had better be ready to deal with what happens when you cross.

BC deliberately kicked over a hornet's nest....and now ne need to deal with the swarm.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1383240682' post='8084184']


....and I'm saying that if you followed most professionals around with cameras and microphones (and delved into their personal lives) you would see that the behavior you are railing against really isn't all that uncommon.

No, drama necessary.

Just a reality-check.
[/quote]

Well, short of following those people around in the manner you suggest (which seems a bit beneath most folks) I am going to go by the behavior I see before me.

[nbg352]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1383240457' post='8084154']


No, he missed my point entirely, as did you. Hold on though, while I spell it out...
[/quote]
I got your point. I happen to agree with his.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Jamboy72' timestamp='1383240756' post='8084188']


Insinuating that Tiger cheated (if you agree/believe that BC did that) is where he jumped the shark -
And b/c of his approach, we're losing the valid story here which is that Tiger had, in the course of less than a full season, 4 distinct rules issues. Does that means he intended to break the rules? We'll never know. Intention is impossible to prove with 100% certainty -

What we can say is that Tiger has been "cavalier" with the rules and as such there is sufficient reason for people to question this, major media included.
[/quote]

No, there isn't "sufficient reason". Not by anyone who understand the concept of "sampling error"...and is willing to look at the situation rationally and fairly.

But then that is not the motive of the rock-throwers, who are simply on the lookout for any opportunity to troll in Woods' direction.

As one poster put it, what we most likely have here is a player who doesn't know the intricacies of the rules as well as he THINKS he does...and needs to rely more on rules officials. Simple problem. Simple fix.

[kemau]

[quote name='deasy55' timestamp='1383233833' post='8083560']
The funniest thing is that he had to apologise for his comments about Tiger, when what he said about Vijay in it was far more out of line.
[/quote]

i brought this up in the other thread.....WAY out of bounds with his comments

[Body_Visions]

[quote name='QMany' timestamp='1383186283' post='8081568']
Brandel's entire gig and popularity, if you can even call it that, has been solely based upon his irrational criticism of Tiger Woods. He could get away from BS swing analysis, he should have stuck to that. Instead, he accused a professional golfer of the cardinal golf sin. He finally crossed the line. He had it coming. He has no one to blame but himself.



Tiger didn't say it, but I believe he wants Brandel gone. The guy has an obvious vendetta. It is not unbiased analysis or constructive criticism. Can you blame Tiger?
[/quote]

I have liked Brandel from the beginning, and others must have as well, or he wouldn't have been around this long.

Does anyone that doesn't agree with him, or bow at his feet at every opportunity need to be fired as well? Maybe his vendetta is just that he doesn't like the way he treats the game and others. I think many would agree with that.

It is obvious that anyone who dares to question anything about him is an enemy and can't be tolerated.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1383241298' post='8084234']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1383240457' post='8084154']

No, he missed my point entirely, as did you. Hold on though, while I spell it out...
[/quote]
I got your point. I happen to agree with his.
[/quote]

Fair enough. See the irony?

[Body_Visions]

[quote name='TheMackDaddy' timestamp='1383201896' post='8082300']
[b]Hate to play the Devils advocate, but Rory and Tiger are friends, so even if Rory feels Tiger may have cheated, he would never say it. He couldn't say it because the media would overwhelm him. He was obligated to say this or nothing at all about the issue.[/b]
[/quote]

Of course he would say that. He has a contract to worry about as well, so would never say anything bad.

[eagle1997]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1383241034' post='8084216']
[quote]

i don't have a problem saying it, so no worries. what's your answer?
[/quote]

You write like I owe you something...well, fair is fair.

You guys are getting hung up on a single point that I made, and are missing that in the earlier post I noted a [u]collection[/u] of behaviors that suggest TO ME that Woods is not quite the honorable person you would like me to think he is. The adultery is a fraction of the point. I wouldn't have brought it up again, but for the interest you have all shown. I don't mind explaining my opinion to you, if it is that important. I hadn't thought so...
[/quote]

sorry if it comes across that way - definitely unintended - you don't owe me squat. you've made some interesting points, and i was just looking for more info. i'm not trying to instigate or play 'gotcha!' or anything of the sort. if you don't want to reply to this post, that's fine by me.

basically, i am just curious as to your definition of honor, and how that applies across business and personal endeavors. does this standard apply to other golfers? people in the military? anyone and everyone?

personally, i think tiger is a horrible husband. tiger yells, curses in front of kids and on tv, and often acts surly around the media. not nice, for sure.
but does any of that that mean he is a dishonorable golfer?

[kellygreen]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1383241281' post='8084232']

Well, short of following those people around in the manner you suggest (which seems a bit beneath most folks) I am going to go by the behavior I see before me.
[/quote]

Perception is not Reality....because what you see often isn't the whole picture, or (worse) is just what that person wants you to see.

I've worked with people who are silky-smooth and oh-so-personable with patients and their families....but are shameless tyrants towards anyone who works for them, obnoxious to anyone who works with them....and treats their spouse like a concubine. I wouldn't let them treat one of my dogs.

OTOH, I've also worked with people who were terrible spouses....cheated shamelessly on them...but were such caring and ethical docs with their patients that I wouldn't have hesitated to let them take care of a family member. Even if I wouldn't have wanted them for an in-law.

We are all imperfect. The only question is in what area of our lives...to what degree we are...and whether we are honest with oursleves and others about it.

[stuckntx]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1383241034' post='8084216']


You write like I owe you something...well, fair is fair.

You guys are getting hung up on a single point that I made, and are missing that in the earlier post I noted a [u]collection[/u] of behaviors that suggest TO ME that Woods is not quite the honorable person you would like me to think he is. The adultery is a fraction of the point. I wouldn't have brought it up again, but for the interest you have all shown. I don't mind explaining my opinion to you, if it is that important. I hadn't thought so...
[/quote]

It really very clear.. you don't like the guy.

Here is a question. Can you name every PGA tour player who has had a rules violation in the last year? Would you insinuate that they were all cheaters?

TW has had one incident that should raise an eyebrow...the ball oscillating. Other than that, the infractions were non issues and happen all the time on tour.

What I find funny is people still idolize a guy like Michael Jordan. Many opposing players felt like he pushed the rules and got away with it because of who he was. He was also a serial philanderer. Same can be said of many other revered public figures. Some of whom were famous golfers. Can you imagine some of your sacred golfers not being who we believe them to be? Well, its a fact, many bent the rules and, shall we say, liked the ladies. Here is the difference, the media then didn't have a camera shoved up their butts 24/7. Those that did know about these players escapades kept it quiet. They kind of liked being friends with a famous athlete.

Bottom line is that their is an obvious irrational dislike for TW. I don't know where it comes from, but we can speculate quite a number of things.

[Body_Visions]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1383222298' post='8082744']

That's the problem.

Many people get a bit fuzzy about the difference between what is fact...and what is opinion.

The only "fact" here is that Tiger had four incidents where outside agencies called him on rules violations. (Given how much he is on camera, I'm frankly suprised it doesn't happen more often). He was penalized for all four of those infractions.

[b][size=5][color=#ff0000]Exactly. The fact that there happened to be four in one year gives many reason, and the right, to believe something weird is happening.[/color][/size][/b]

Everything else beyond that is OPINION. Whether Tiger should have called the penalty on himself in the last sitaution..."just to be sure" and "protect the field" is open to legitimate debate. Whether the Master's Rules Committee should have waved the DQ penalty for signing an incorrect score card is opent to legitimate debate.

[b][size=5][color=#ff0000]Agreed. I fully believe number one should have happened, and in the case of number two, the dq would have happened with anyone else, but both are opinions, no matter how strongly I feel about them.[/color][/size][/b]

But some of the stuff going on here is baseless character assassination. That is more about venting the irrational hostility that many feel towards Woods. Like the business about the drop at Sawgrass.


Chamblee was out of line, beacause there is no basis by which to reasonably accuse Woods of intentionally cheating...and levelling such an accusation has the possibility of doing permanent damage to Woods' repuation and his marketability in the endorsement arena.

[b][size=5][color=#ff0000]All this is opinion. I think what he said was justified, and certainly wish he wouldn't have backed down.[/color][/size][/b]


Which is why Woods' camp has been putting out some not-very-subtle warnings to Chamblee---and those involved with him---that a libel suit was an option that was on-the-table, if the matter was not dealt with to their satisfaction.

[color=#ff0000][b][size=5]I don't even know where to begin here. Absolutely ridiculous is all I can say about it. If he didn't have a history like he does regarding anyone that dares to question him, I might give it some thought.[/size][/b][/color]

Chamblee gets paid to be an on-course analyst. In accusing Woods of being a "cheater" he was out-of-bounds, and beyond the pale.

[b][size=5][color=#ff0000]Opinion, just like everything else after your first paragraph.[/color][/size][/b]


[/quote]

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Body_Visions' timestamp='1383241964' post='8084286']


I have liked Brandel from the beginning, and others must have as well, or he wouldn't have been around this long.

Does anyone that doesn't agree with him, or bow at his feet at every opportunity need to be fired as well? Maybe his vendetta is just that he doesn't like the way he treats the game and others. I think many would agree with that.

It is obvious that anyone who dares to question anything about him is an enemy and can't be tolerated.
[/quote]

1. People like Howard Stern too. No one ever went broke by underestimating their audience or by appealing to the lowest-common denominator.

2. There's no vendetta. If there WAS one, I might actually have more respect for BC. But this is a calculated move on BC's part to position himself as another Johnny Miller. As the "analyst who isn't afraid to tell it like it is even if it makes the pros look bad."

But what BC is too stupid and too arrogant to realize is that the pros HATE it when JM does it. They just put up with it because JM is (at the end of the day) very knowledgeable about the game, makes it clear that he just as critical of himself and his own life, and is highly respected for he has accomplished in the game. [b][i]The benefit-of-the-doubt that these guys extend to JM, in no-way-shape-or-form translates down to a washed-up journeyman player who isn't as knowledgable about the game, or as respected by his peers as he thinks he is. [/i][/b]

Something he didn't realize until he finally crossed the line, and the subject of his unprofessional rant did the professional equivalent of knocking him on his *ss.

Only to look around and find out that nobody (in the profession) was going to be coming to his defense.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Body_Visions' timestamp='1383242369' post='8084322']
Of course he would say that. He has a contract to worry about as well, so would never say anything bad.
[/quote]

Circular argument.

[nbg352]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1383242031' post='8084294']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1383241298' post='8084234']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1383240457' post='8084154']
No, he missed my point entirely, as did you. Hold on though, while I spell it out...
[/quote]
I got your point. I happen to agree with his.
[/quote]

Fair enough. See the irony?
[/quote]
I am ever hopeful that you are indeed as honourable as you seem to be. It's understandable that you wish others to mirror your idea of honor. We just have different views of what distinguishes honor from dishonor.
Generally speaking, life has taught me, to be suspicious of those who claim to be honourable men. too many of them use the word to hide themselves behind while they live ignobly, beneath the radar. I'm happy to share a beer with a man who strives for honour in his life and acts responsibly when he fails. As all honourable men must, on occasion, inevitably do .

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Body_Visions' timestamp='1383243252' post='8084384']
[b][size=5][color=#ff0000].[/color][/size][/b]






Chamblee gets paid to be an on-course analyst. In accusing Woods of being a "cheater" he was out-of-bounds, and beyond the pale.

[b][size=5][color=#ff0000]Opinion, just like everything else after your first paragraph.[/color][/size][/b]



[/quote]

Yes, but not all opinions are created equal.

Because some opions are based on things that can be objectively demonstrated.

While others are based upon hypocrisy, speculation, and double-standards.

But we are all still entitled to our opinions, whatever their foundation.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='stuckntx' timestamp='1383242866' post='8084354']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1383241034' post='8084216']
[quote]

i don't have a problem saying it, so no worries. what's your answer?
[/quote]

You write like I owe you something...well, fair is fair.

You guys are getting hung up on a single point that I made, and are missing that in the earlier post I noted a [u]collection[/u] of behaviors that suggest TO ME that Woods is not quite the honorable person you would like me to think he is. The adultery is a fraction of the point. I wouldn't have brought it up again, but for the interest you have all shown. I don't mind explaining my opinion to you, if it is that important. I hadn't thought so...
[/quote]

It really very clear.. you don't like the guy.

Here is a question. Can you name every PGA tour player who has had a rules violation in the last year? Would you insinuate that they were all cheaters?

TW has had one incident that should raise an eyebrow...the ball oscillating. Other than that, the infractions were non issues and happen all the time on tour.

What I find funny is people still idolize a guy like Michael Jordan. Many opposing players felt like he pushed the rules and got away with it because of who he was. He was also a serial philanderer. Same can be said of many other revered public figures. Some of whom were famous golfers. Can you imagine some of your sacred golfers not being who we believe them to be? Well, its a fact, many bent the rules and, shall we say, liked the ladies. Here is the difference, the media then didn't have a camera shoved up their butts 24/7. Those that did know about these players escapades kept it quiet. They kind of liked being friends with a famous athlete.

Bottom line is that their is an obvious irrational dislike for TW. I don't know where it comes from, but we can speculate quite a number of things.
[/quote]

Oh I know EXACTLY where it comes from.

[nbg352]

[quote name='Body_Visions' timestamp='1383243252' post='8084384']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1383222298' post='8082744']
[quote name='SurfinTurf' timestamp='1383171665' post='8080390']
[i][b]What does "sincere" or "vendetta" have to do with a journalist stating the truth[/b][/i].

Tiger was cavalier with the rules. Won't be the last time either.
[/quote]

That's the problem.

Many people get a bit fuzzy about the difference between what is fact...and what is opinion.

The only "fact" here is that Tiger had four incidents where outside agencies called him on rules violations. (Given how much he is on camera, I'm frankly suprised it doesn't happen more often). He was penalized for all four of those infractions.

[b][size=5][color=#ff0000]Exactly. The fact that there happened to be four in one year gives many reason, and the right, to believe something weird is happening.[/color][/size][/b]

Everything else beyond that is OPINION. Whether Tiger should have called the penalty on himself in the last sitaution..."just to be sure" and "protect the field" is open to legitimate debate. Whether the Master's Rules Committee should have waved the DQ penalty for signing an incorrect score card is opent to legitimate debate.

[b][size=5][color=#ff0000]Agreed. I fully believe number one should have happened, and in the case of number two, the dq would have happened with anyone else, but both are opinions, no matter how strongly I feel about them.[/color][/size][/b]

But some of the stuff going on here is baseless character assassination. That is more about venting the irrational hostility that many feel towards Woods. Like the business about the drop at Sawgrass.


Chamblee was out of line, beacause there is no basis by which to reasonably accuse Woods of intentionally cheating...and levelling such an accusation has the possibility of doing permanent damage to Woods' repuation and his marketability in the endorsement arena.

[b][size=5][color=#ff0000]All this is opinion. I think what he said was justified, and certainly wish he wouldn't have backed down.[/color][/size][/b]


Which is why Woods' camp has been putting out some not-very-subtle warnings to Chamblee---and those involved with him---that a libel suit was an option that was on-the-table, if the matter was not dealt with to their satisfaction.

[color=#ff0000][b][size=5]I don't even know where to begin here. Absolutely ridiculous is all I can say about it. If he didn't have a history like he does regarding anyone that dares to question him, I might give it some thought.[/size][/b][/color]

Chamblee gets paid to be an on-course analyst. In accusing Woods of being a "cheater" he was out-of-bounds, and beyond the pale.

[b][size=5][color=#ff0000]Opinion, just like everything else after your first paragraph.[/color][/size][/b]


[/quote]
[/quote]
Well, I'm convinced. But then, I'm always cowed by the guy whose opinion is offered up in bold red.
I must say though, that with all that color, I was expecting something of substance. But all I saw was red.......

[tembolo1284]

Kelly where does it come from? Is it racism? Envy?

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1383243511' post='8084402']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1383242031' post='8084294']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1383241298' post='8084234']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1383240457' post='8084154']
No, he missed my point entirely, as did you. Hold on though, while I spell it out...
[/quote]
I got your point. I happen to agree with his.
[/quote]

Fair enough. See the irony?
[/quote]
I am ever hopeful that you are indeed as honourable as you seem to be. It's understandable that you wish others to mirror your idea of honor. We just have different views of what distinguishes honor from dishonor.
Generally speaking, life has taught me, to be suspicious of those who claim to be honourable men. too many of them use the word to hide themselves behind while they live ignobly, beneath the radar. I'm happy to share a beer with a man who strives for honour in his life and acts responsibly when he fails. As all honourable men must, on occasion, inevitably do .
[/quote]

I'm not so honorable I must admit. I eat bacon all the time...even during Lent. What do I win?

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1383241337' post='8084236']


No, there isn't "sufficient reason". Not by anyone who understand the concept of "sampling error"...and is willing to look at the situation rationally and fairly.

But then that is not the motive of the rock-throwers, who are simply on the lookout for any opportunity to troll in Woods' direction.

As one poster put it, what we most likely have here is a player who doesn't know the intricacies of the rules as well as he THINKS he does...and needs to rely more on rules officials. Simple problem. Simple fix.
[/quote]

Hogwash...If it were any other player, the masses would have no issue discussing this issue ad naseum....We aren't talking about one instance...we're talking about 4...I'm sorry, but 4 instances of shady rules type behavior is enough for anyone to question - It's not that hard to play by the rules (for most) - But playing by the rules, hasn't always been Tiger's strong suit -

It's not throwing rocks or "trolling" when Tiger has brought this ENTIRELY on himself. He broke the rules....and at least with 2 of the 4, there weren't any "intricacies" - They are rules I expect my high school golf team to know...it's not that hard....

Once again, TW misbehaved...got caught and instead of mann-ing up and dealing with it, his fragile ego has to deflect....

[Body_Visions]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1383243845' post='8084448']

[b]Well, I'm convinced. But then, I'm always cowed by the guy whose opinion is offered up in bold red.
I must say though, that with all that color, I was expecting something of substance. But all I saw was red.......[/b]
[/quote]


And you also didn't see me critisize anyone here in my red comments. I wanted to answer each paragraph individually, and didn't know a better way to do it. Anything else?

[Body_Visions]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1383243399' post='8084390']
[quote name='Body_Visions' timestamp='1383242369' post='8084322']
Of course he would say that. He has a contract to worry about as well, so would never say anything bad.
[/quote]

Circular argument.
[/quote]

It was more of a joke, although there might be some truth behind it.

[golfer]

[quote name='kemau' timestamp='1383241900' post='8084278']
[quote name='deasy55' timestamp='1383233833' post='8083560']
The funniest thing is that he had to apologise for his comments about Tiger, when what he said about Vijay in it was [s]far more[/s] out of line.
[/quote]

i brought this up in the other thread.....WAY out of bounds with his comments
[/quote]


I fixed that for you deasy55. Chamblee's comments about Vijay were "out of bounds" and personal. The next time Vijay comes in contact with Brandel, he may threaten to kick is butt!

[kellygreen]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1383243511' post='8084402']
I am ever hopeful that you are indeed as honourable as you seem to be. It's understandable that you wish others to mirror your idea of honor. We just have different views of what distinguishes honor from dishonor.
Generally speaking, [i][b]life has taught me, to be suspicious of those who claim to be honourable men. too many of them use the word to hide themselves behind while they live ignobly, beneath the radar. I'm happy to share a beer with a man who strives for honour in his life and acts responsibly when he fails. As all honourable men must, on occasion, inevitably do .[/b][/i]
[/quote]

"[i]Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault;
And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it.
Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest, —
[b]For Brutus is an honorable man;
So are they all, all honorable men[/b], —
[u]Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me[/u]:
[b]But Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honorable man.[/b] [/i]

[i]----[/i]Mark Antony's eulogy. [i]Julius Caesar, [/i]Act II


[i]Have patience with all things, but chiefly have patience with yourself. Do not lose courage in considering your own imperfections, but instantly set about remedying them—every day begin the task anew[/i].

— [i]Saint Francis de Sales, bishop of Geneva (1567-1622)[/i]

[i]Fall seven times. Stand up eight.[/i]

[i]---Japanese proverb. [/i]

[golfer]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1383244071' post='8084464']
Kelly where does it come from? Is it racism? Envy?
[/quote]

Although many will provide other reasons for their dislike, it starts with "racism", moves to "envy" and ends with "racism".

[kellygreen]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1383244071' post='8084464']
Kelly where does it come from? Is it racism? Envy?
[/quote]

Both and more.

For some it is racial. For others it is class-based resentment. For other still it is cultural. Others still it is generational. For some, it is just the resentment and envy that all "greatness" or "success" generates. Especially if people feel that it has come too easily or too abundantly.

For many, it is a witches brew of more than one at at time.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='golfer' timestamp='1383244524' post='8084522']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1383244071' post='8084464']
Kelly where does it come from? Is it racism? Envy?
[/quote]

Although many will provide other reasons for their dislike, it starts with "racism", moves to "envy" and ends with "racism".
[/quote]

Oh there are plenty of [i]rationalizations[/i] out there for the dislike.... Rationalizations that fall apart pretty quickly when closely examined. But there are more reasons behind it than simply racism and envy...though those are a part of the overall mix out there.

[eagle1997]

[quote name='golfer' timestamp='1383244524' post='8084522']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1383244071' post='8084464']
Kelly where does it come from? Is it racism? Envy?
[/quote]

Although many will provide other reasons for their dislike, it starts with "racism", moves to "envy" and ends with "racism".
[/quote]

that's too broad a brush IMHO. i have to allow for gray, seeing as how my own feelings regarding TW have sine-waved over time.