Game Golf tracking system (merged)

[PapaJohick]

The things people find to complain about haha. It's a small red disc at the end of the club. Just funny to me as once I buzz the club I never see it again until the next shot.

[Colby327]

I ran into an unusual problem this past weekend. The course I was at was using its smaller temporary/winter greens. They're real greens, just smaller and not as nice... After the round is where I ran into the problem. GG wouldn't recognize GIRs even when I manually selected it and moved the pin. It would either let me move the pin the to temp green, or put "on the green", but not both. So basically it either affects my putting stats for the round or GIRs.

Not a big deal, since how many courses actually have smaller winter/temp greens anyway. But it was still a little disappointing.

Other than that small issue, I've been very impressed and happy with the $120 purchase. The data can be very enlightening.

[gripandrip]

My wife got me this system for Christmas. I got out for a round on the 27th, and was very pleased with the data and statistics collected. As it was pretty cold, drives were a little disappointing in distance, but overall stats were great. It showed a few of my quirks in just 18 holes, and confirmed some concerns I had, but never bothered to complete stats to understand. Can't wait to get in more rounds. But with January quickly approaching, I'm thinking I'll have to wait until March...

[WhiZ]

[quote name='minteq' timestamp='1419881825' post='10656185']
Anyone know it this is on sale anywhere? I see it for $199, looking for a deal, thanks.
[/quote]

Pray for another Amazon lightning deal? $120 for this was pretty sweet.

You might find one on ebay with shipping for $180 or so - I never saw anything lower than that.

WhiZ

[tommy89]

[quote name='Papa Johick' timestamp='1419882811' post='10656245']
The things people find to complain about haha. It's a small red disc at the end of the club. Just funny to me as once I buzz the club I never see it again until the next shot.
[/quote]

Not everyone cares about the small details. I do

[PapaJohick]

And that's fine just seems silly (to me) on something that doesn't matter. I am very detail oriented when it matters or comes to work or my hobbies but if it's something so small that is providing me a service easier than me doing it myself than I'm fine with it. Everyone can have his or her opinion.

Hit em well if you are able to do so. If not, stay warm and hope you don't go crazy with no golf

[jlt73]

[quote name='minteq' timestamp='1419881825' post='10656185']
Anyone know it this is on sale anywhere? I see it for $199, looking for a deal, thanks.
[/quote]

I bought one and have found that it won't stay in my pure pro standard grips. I haven't even used it for one round I'm thinking of just getting rid of it for $130. Pm me if you are interested.

[PaulBoy]

[quote name='tommy89' timestamp='1419807327' post='10652619']
Added all my clubs yesterday. Unit should arrive early in the week. No 3 iron tag so it looks like i use a star one. Wouldn't it make sense to of made the grip tags black and not red so they don't stand out so much?
[/quote]
You could always change all your grips to match your GG tags? - All red grips or maybe something more subtle like this?
Paul

[attachment=2551059:LamkinCrosslineACESm.jpg]

[larrybud]

[quote name='dcmidnight' timestamp='1419471028' post='10639329']
Alright, so how are these stats supposed to work? I've seen a couple like this that have not exactly added up correctly.

For example, I have 4 shots into the green with this particular club. 1/4 shots looks like its in the 15 yard circle 1/4 is left and 1/4 is short - shouldnt that other shot be counted as well? My two rounds were both marked as include in the stats and everything else about them looks OK.

Shouldnt these add up to 100%?
[attachment=2545881:info.jpg]
[/quote]

There definitely is something amiss with the stats.

It is certainly possible for the numbers to add up to more than 100% since if something is short AND right, it would be counted in each of those categories, but there's no way it should add to up to less than 100%. It seems to be ignoring that one shot which is just barely short/left of the circle.

In looking at my approach numbers, same thing is happening. Huh, never really noticed it before! Definitely a bug in the calculation. I'll open a ticket with them.

[dcmidnight]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1419955947' post='10660209']
There definitely is something amiss with the stats.

It is certainly possible for the numbers to add up to more than 100% since if something is short AND right, it would be counted in each of those categories, but there's no way it should add to up to less than 100%. It seems to be ignoring that one shot which is just barely short/left of the circle.

In looking at my approach numbers, same thing is happening. Huh, never really noticed it before! Definitely a bug in the calculation. I'll open a ticket with them.
[/quote]

^^

This is my issue. I get that they could add up to more but its absurd to think they would add up to less.

[techjunkee]

Personally I like the tags, and telling people about the device when they see it on my clubs or the unit on my belt. And with that, here's my shameless plug:

http://articles.gamegolf.com/article/shot-of-the-week-winner-december-30th-john-porter

[Dan Drake]

Has anyone tied this in with a "strokes gained" Mark Broadie approach? Any ideas about how that would be easiest to do?

[techjunkee]

[quote name='Dan Drake' timestamp='1420062997' post='10667311']
Has anyone tied this in with a "strokes gained" Mark Broadie approach? Any ideas about how that would be easiest to do?
[/quote]

This is such a general question, what are you trying to do?

Mark Broadie believes you can score lower if you hit it farther. His Tee to Green approach only makes sense if you are already a tour caliber putter. Not sure how you would "tie this in" with the GAMEGolf unit.

[techjunkee]

Strokes gained is such a specific stat to tournament play. You would have to calculate every shot on every course against a mean (tour average, or slope rating, etc.) like they do on tour.

Example: What takes a 15 handicap to get up and down from 125yds is not close to what it takes a 5 handicap.

The concept is great and I like your idea.

In theory you could use the data to compare against yourself in previous rounds of the same course?

[AntLockyer]

[quote name='techjunkee' timestamp='1420066300' post='10667571']
Strokes gained is such a specific stat to tournament play.
[/quote]

I don't think that is the case. They have the data to be able to calculate it for a handicap range in the same way they are for the other stuff in the compare section of insights.

Every shot from 125 yards in the fairway will have an average hole out rate. You will either be above or below that rate.

[THenman]

From reading his book; strokes gained is a way to find where ones weaknesses are. With the data it's a way to compare to tour level play (albeit different course and conditions.)
All you need is distance to pin and where the shot starts from and finishes. I'd think you could at least get some of the data from gamegolf and a decent est. for any missing data. Problem is GPS and pin position. Both can cause a bit of inaccuracy ion the putting numbers but then his book gives a table with numbers that are rounded anyhow and with gaps between them...

I got a gamegolf for Christmas and I'm looking forward to using both it and strokes gained this year. I'll laser if needed for the strokes gained...

[techjunkee]

[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1420068575' post='10667761']
[quote name='techjunkee' timestamp='1420066300' post='10667571']
Strokes gained is such a specific stat to tournament play.
[/quote]

I don't think that is the case. They have the data to be able to calculate it for a handicap range in the same way they are for the other stuff in the compare section of insights.

Every shot from 125 yards in the fairway will have an average hole out rate. You will either be above or below that rate.
[/quote]

Compared to what; yourself? A tour player? Course slope?

Since 2009 the PGA tour stats for strokes gained are specific to tournament play and calculated based on the field. I'm sure they also keep such a stat for season totals as well.

Surely the principles can be applied but would need to be grossly adjusted to each players handicap. Whereas an 18 handicap player would get an extra stroke for all holes so where would you add that stroke? There is no exact science to it, that is why the PGA uses it on a level for tournament play specifically.

[techjunkee]

[quote name='THenman' timestamp='1420070310' post='10667877']
From reading his book; strokes gained is a way to find where ones weaknesses are. With the data it's a way to compare to tour level play (albeit different course and conditions.)
All you need is distance to pin and where the shot starts from and finishes. I'd think you could at least get some of the data from gamegolf and a decent est. for any missing data. Problem is GPS and pin position. Both can cause a bit of inaccuracy ion the putting numbers but then his book gives a table with numbers that are rounded anyhow and with gaps between them...

I got a gamegolf for Christmas and I'm looking forward to using both it and strokes gained this year. I'll laser if needed for the strokes gained...
[/quote]

I keep a strokes gained stat of my own with distance to pin for putting: 1st putt, 2nd putt, and albeit....3rd putt sometimes ;-)

These and other notes I keep in the comments section of each round I post on GAMEGolf. That is one of the most amazing features I love about the app integration. You can literally bring a record of previous rounds out for play without the need of notebooks and old scorecards.

[THenman]

[quote name='techjunkee' timestamp='1420070402' post='10667887']
[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1420068575' post='10667761']
[quote name='techjunkee' timestamp='1420066300' post='10667571']
Strokes gained is such a specific stat to tournament play.
[/quote]

I don't think that is the case. They have the data to be able to calculate it for a handicap range in the same way they are for the other stuff in the compare section of insights.

Every shot from 125 yards in the fairway will have an average hole out rate. You will either be above or below that rate.
[/quote]

Compared to what; yourself? A tour player? Course slope?

Since 2009 the PGA tour stats for strokes gained are specific to tournament play and calculated based on the field. I'm sure they also keep such a stat for season totals as well.

Surely the principles can be applied but would need to be grossly adjusted to each players handicap. Whereas an 18 handicap player would get an extra stroke for all holes so where would you add that stroke? There is no exact science to it, that is why the PGA uses it on a level for tournament play specifically.
[/quote]

Not really.
Par 4 400 yds. 3.99
Tee shot 200 in rough 3.42
2nd leaves 45 yrd. fairway 2.62
3rd leaves 40ft. putt 2.06
4th leaves 3ft putt 1.04
5th in hole

Player lost .43 off the tee
.2 on second shot
.44 on pitch
gained .02 on first putt
gained .04 on 2nd putt

Losing 1.01 overall on the hole. If typical it showes he should work on his driving and wedges while his putting is good. Iron play would be something for after driving and wedges.

[THenman]

[quote name='techjunkee' timestamp='1420070402' post='10667887']
There is no exact science to it, that is why the PGA uses it on a level for tournament play specifically.
[/quote]

Actually Brodie started it with information from amateurs... It's easy for the PGA Tour to use it since they track distances for every shot played. Hence more stats and a nice baseline for "par" golf. Nothing wrong with a baseline after all a base line is what is used for a handicap with course ratings and slope.

[techjunkee]

My guess is that there isn't enough course information specific to each shot (lie/obstruction) in order for it to be accurate. Some data is there to loosely calculate your own stat for sure.

I think if there was a way to identify these variables for every shot in 2 separate categories it would work:

Off the Tee[list=1]
[*]Distance
[*]Fairway
[*]Rough/Lie
[*]Obstruction/Lie
[*]Sand/Lie
[/list]
Around the green[list=1]
[*]Pitching/Chipping/Lie
[*]Distance 1st putt
[*]Distance 2nd putt
[*]Distance 3rd putt
[/list]

Unfortunately that might be outside the limitations of this device.

[AntLockyer]

[quote name='techjunkee' timestamp='1420070402' post='10667887']
Compared to what; yourself? A tour player? Course slope?

Since 2009 the PGA tour stats for strokes gained are specific to tournament play and calculated based on the field. I'm sure they also keep such a stat for season totals as well.

Surely the principles can be applied but would need to be grossly adjusted to each players handicap. Whereas an 18 handicap player would get an extra stroke for all holes so where would you add that stroke? There is no exact science to it, that is why the PGA uses it on a level for tournament play specifically.
[/quote]

If you gave me all the game golf data I could give you a strokes gained result for every shot you played against any group you liked.

When you go into insights now and click compare it will pick the average score group you fit into. They are sufficiently wide to provide decent averages.

None of this needs to be course specific, that in my opinion is not a relevant piece of data to use (and I don't believe Brodie does either).

Simply put if someone is 120 yards out in the fairway it will on average take them n number of shots. n for the PGA tour = 2.85, n for a 90s shooter will obviously be higher but easily calculated form the data.

[larrybud]

[quote name='THenman' timestamp='1420071091' post='10667917']
Not really.
Par 4 400 yds. 3.99
Tee shot 200 in rough 3.42
2nd leaves 45 yrd. fairway 2.62
3rd leaves 40ft. putt 2.06
4th leaves 3ft putt 1.04
5th in hole

Player lost .43 off the tee
.2 on second shot
.44 on pitch
gained .02 on first putt
gained .04 on 2nd putt

Losing 1.01 overall on the hole. If typical it showes he should work on his driving and wedges while his putting is good. Iron play would be something for after driving and wedges.
[/quote]

You're not understanding how it works, though. On tour, Strokes Gained is relative to other players (not relative to par, relative to the average score on the hole) so you can determine your weakness vs everyone else. All you're doing is comparing one of your shots to all of your other shots, which doesn't really mean anything. For example, if you hit every driver 250 down the middle every single time, your strokes gained for that shot would ALWAYS be 0.00.

[THenman]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1420120638' post='10669551']
[quote name='THenman' timestamp='1420071091' post='10667917']
Not really.
Par 4 400 yds. 3.99
Tee shot 200 in rough 3.42
2nd leaves 45 yrd. fairway 2.62
3rd leaves 40ft. putt 2.06
4th leaves 3ft putt 1.04
5th in hole

Player lost .43 off the tee
.2 on second shot
.44 on pitch
gained .02 on first putt
gained .04 on 2nd putt

Losing 1.01 overall on the hole. If typical it showes he should work on his driving and wedges while his putting is good. Iron play would be something for after driving and wedges.
[/quote]

You're not understanding how it works, though. On tour, Strokes Gained is relative to other players (not relative to par, relative to the average score on the hole) so you can determine your weakness vs everyone else. All you're doing is comparing one of your shots to all of your other shots, which doesn't really mean anything. For example, if you hit every driver 250 down the middle every single time, your strokes gained for that shot would ALWAYS be 0.00.
[/quote]

Odd how this is EXACTLY like some of his examples in "Every Shot Counts"; but hey what does he know about it... Also the numbers came from the table in the book with the exception that I had to interpolate one of them. Yes it compares to other players, yes tour averages are used, yes for rankings data is course normalized on tour, still with all those things it can be used by any skill level to tell you what are your strength and weaknesses. After multiple rounds one can group the data to see how driving, different approach shots, recovery shots, etc. compare to tour averages and see where they need to work on things.

GG from what I've seen of the stats and what I know of GPS should give one a reasonable chance to get the data except perhaps for putting where GPS accuracy (error) becomes a problem. Still distance to pin, start condition (tee, fairway, etc.), end condition, end distance to pin are all needed to get to strokes Gained. It would not be a hard add-on for GG IF pin location is input on the course. It however might be a costly add-on if they have to pay for it's use.

Also from his table that 250yrd in the fairway tee shot? On a 400yrd hole it gains about .06 and on a 440yrd hole it loses about .05 ...

[TimAZ]

I'll leave the debate about the value of "shots gained" to people smarter than me, but I did purchase Game Golf hoping to explore the approach a little bit more to decide for myself. I manually kept the necessary stats for a few rounds and plugged them into the spreadsheet that a GolfWRX user posted, and thought that GG would be a natural fit. However, the GG website does not provide the necessary data, at least in an obvious way. For each stroke, it shows the distance the ball traveled, but it doesn't provide the distance remaining to the pin. I suspect that with a little ingenuity and/or effort you could tease the data out, but I haven't looked any closer at it yet. I did put in a request for the "distance remaining" to be displayed, but of course there are a lot of feature requests out there.

Is there anyone who is able to glean the data necessary for Shots Gained for your rounds from the Game Golf website? I'm wondering if maybe I just missed something.

Oh, and I'll chime in on the customer service stuff. I played my first Game Golf round on the Saturday after Thanksgiving and it had a couple of holes out of order at my local course, which has a weird layout. I submitted a ticket and the issue was fixed very early Monday morning--about 2:30 am Arizona time on the Monday after Thanksgiving, so I was thrilled.

Tim

[larrybud]

[quote name='THenman' timestamp='1420126878' post='10669885']
[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1420120638' post='10669551']
[quote name='THenman' timestamp='1420071091' post='10667917']
Not really.
Par 4 400 yds. 3.99
Tee shot 200 in rough 3.42
2nd leaves 45 yrd. fairway 2.62
3rd leaves 40ft. putt 2.06
4th leaves 3ft putt 1.04
5th in hole

Player lost .43 off the tee
.2 on second shot
.44 on pitch
gained .02 on first putt
gained .04 on 2nd putt

Losing 1.01 overall on the hole. If typical it showes he should work on his driving and wedges while his putting is good. Iron play would be something for after driving and wedges.
[/quote]

You're not understanding how it works, though. On tour, Strokes Gained is relative to other players (not relative to par, relative to the average score on the hole) so you can determine your weakness vs everyone else. All you're doing is comparing one of your shots to all of your other shots, which doesn't really mean anything. For example, if you hit every driver 250 down the middle every single time, your strokes gained for that shot would ALWAYS be 0.00.
[/quote]

Odd how this is EXACTLY like some of his examples in "Every Shot Counts"; but hey what does he know about it... Also the numbers came from the table in the book with the exception that I had to interpolate one of them. Yes it compares to other players, yes tour averages are used, yes for rankings data is course normalized on tour, still with all those things it can be used by any skill level to tell you what are your strength and weaknesses. After multiple rounds one can group the data to see how driving, different approach shots, recovery shots, etc. compare to tour averages and see where they need to work on things.

Also from his table that 250yrd in the fairway tee shot? On a 400yrd hole it gains about .06 and on a 440yrd hole it loses about .05 ...
[/quote]

I've read the book a number of times. He's comparing players to other players. When you say it gains about ".06", what he's talking about is gaining .06 on *the field*. But in our case (unless you're on tour), there is no "field". I guess you could look up what a particular shot you made would be relative to tour players, but you're comparing against static numbers in a chart.

On tour, the numbers are dynamic. The number of shots it takes to hole out from a given distance is constantly changing. Meaning you may average the same # of shots for a given distance from one season to another, and in one year you might gain shots on the field, and the next lost shots to the field, because the average of the other players got better.

[THenman]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1420169984' post='10672767']
[quote name='THenman' timestamp='1420126878' post='10669885']
[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1420120638' post='10669551']
[quote name='THenman' timestamp='1420071091' post='10667917']
Not really.
Par 4 400 yds. 3.99
Tee shot 200 in rough 3.42
2nd leaves 45 yrd. fairway 2.62
3rd leaves 40ft. putt 2.06
4th leaves 3ft putt 1.04
5th in hole

Player lost .43 off the tee
.2 on second shot
.44 on pitch
gained .02 on first putt
gained .04 on 2nd putt

Losing 1.01 overall on the hole. If typical it showes he should work on his driving and wedges while his putting is good. Iron play would be something for after driving and wedges.
[/quote]

You're not understanding how it works, though. On tour, Strokes Gained is relative to other players (not relative to par, relative to the average score on the hole) so you can determine your weakness vs everyone else. All you're doing is comparing one of your shots to all of your other shots, which doesn't really mean anything. For example, if you hit every driver 250 down the middle every single time, your strokes gained for that shot would ALWAYS be 0.00.
[/quote]

Odd how this is EXACTLY like some of his examples in "Every Shot Counts"; but hey what does he know about it... Also the numbers came from the table in the book with the exception that I had to interpolate one of them. Yes it compares to other players, yes tour averages are used, yes for rankings data is course normalized on tour, still with all those things it can be used by any skill level to tell you what are your strength and weaknesses. After multiple rounds one can group the data to see how driving, different approach shots, recovery shots, etc. compare to tour averages and see where they need to work on things.

Also from his table that 250yrd in the fairway tee shot? On a 400yrd hole it gains about .06 and on a 440yrd hole it loses about .05 ...
[/quote]

I've read the book a number of times. He's comparing players to other players. When you say it gains about ".06", what he's talking about is gaining .06 on *the field*. But in our case (unless you're on tour), there is no "field". I guess you could look up what a particular shot you made would be relative to tour players, but you're comparing against static numbers in a chart.

On tour, the numbers are dynamic. The number of shots it takes to hole out from a given distance is constantly changing. Meaning you may average the same # of shots for a given distance from one season to another, and in one year you might gain shots on the field, and the next lost shots to the field, because the average of the other players got better.
[/quote]

"Every Shot Counts" "Using the revolutionary strokes gained approach to improve your golf performance and strategy" by Mark Brodie

So Larry you saying the cover is not correct?

Or how about: "[i]Every Shot Counts[/i] explains the idea behind strokes gained. The book also gives results for a whole family of strokes gained stats that allow both pros and amateurs to analyze skill in driving, approach shots, short game, and putting." (This is quoted from the intro. page xix )

[b]Anyhow it's a simple coding system that highlights game problem areas[/b] like the example I gave. In it the player needs to work on driving and chipping if those are typical numbers. Strokes gained simply gives a baseline to compare oneself to. That baseline is about an average tour pro; due in part to data that is available and also since it makes sense to compare to the best or close to it. Brodie does go to lengths to show the limits of the the system but that doers not mean it's not helpful to most players. Sure a tour pro gets more from it but the average Joe can see what to work on in his game with it. Sure courses vary so things may change if one plays a different course or just under different conditions but the system will average things out. (When using a coding system the baseline is not really important but it's shape is. Hence using data from the pro tour is one acceptable approach. It's also important to know what the baseline is to interpret the coded data.)

The system can and is used like you point out on tour. That however is just one way it can be used! It's not limited to that single use. It's just like course ratings and slopes are changing all the time and that does not mean handicaps are worthless. Or how weather makes a course harder or easier but one's handicap is not adjusted for the weather.

Anyhow that's way to much on Brodie in a GG thread for my taste. For GG to implement they only need pin location accurate perhaps from an extra tap at the cup. Then since they have the GPS cords. for pin and start of each shot they can get beginning distance to pin for each shot. (If I understand the already have fairway, rough, tee, and sand for each shot.) To actually get strokes gained they might well have to pay a license fee.

[AntLockyer]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1420169984' post='10672767']But in our case (unless you're on tour), there is no "field".
[/quote]

There is a field it is every other user of Game golf split into whatever scoring bands you like. Want to compare yourself against par shooters and see where you lose strokes etc.

TimAZ post a link to your request I'll support it.

[QEight]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1420169984' post='10672767']
I guess you could look up what a particular shot you made would be relative to tour players, but you're comparing against static numbers in a chart.
[/quote]

And what would be wrong with that, it would just be called "strokes gained on static numbers in a chart"? As you said, many times there is no field to play against. But you could create a "fantasy fourball" with TW, Sergio, your average round and yourself. Then you could compare each shot against your FC numbers. It could be interesting to hit a shot and gain on tour pro, or better your average. And all this shot by shot. Not like after 95 shots decide that you were 25 shots worse than TW, but actually know where you lost the shots, and all this in real time.

[QEight]

[quote name='tommy89' timestamp='1419891818' post='10656997']
[quote name='Papa Johick' timestamp='1419882811' post='10656245']
The things people find to complain about haha. It's a small red disc at the end of the club. Just funny to me as once I buzz the club I never see it again until the next shot.
[/quote]

Not everyone cares about the small details. I do
[/quote]

Buy black spray paint. And use it.