Manual de la Torre Method

upanddownupanddown Members Posts: 492 ClubWRX
Anyone out there currently using this method? I just finished watching the video and its scary simple and seems to make a lot of sense...
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Comments

  • parmarkparmark Parmark Members Posts: 1,402 ✭✭
    There have been a few other threads about how effective this is for some, and a few threads about some personal experiences with MDLT himself up in Milwaukee, who makes himself available for lessons. You might want to search around here for some of those and find some good information. Good luck with it, love the book.
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,771 ✭✭
    Manny taught me to swing the golf club, from scratch, in the late 60's and has been my mentor virtually ever since. He took me from literally never had hit a golf ball to a plus handicap at Milwaukee Country Club by the end of my second summer of very intense work. You can't do better than MDLT.



    Steve
  • atpopeatpope Members Posts: 15 ✭✭
    I haven't had the pleasure to visit Mr. De la Torre in person, but thanks to several readings of the iBooks version of his book, Steve's postings on the forum, and watching his appearance on Golf Academy Live, I have adopted his method.



    I agree it is scary simple, but it is built on a solid concept and to quote the man himself "There is nothing wrong if you do it right".



    Thank you Steve for introducing me to Manny, and I agree, You can't do better.
  • 3eagles183eagles18 Members Posts: 915 ✭✭
    edited Apr 24, 2014 #5
    The book, Understanding the Golf Swing, is better than the DVD. But, they complement each other, and I have watched and read many times.



    I prefer Swing the Handle by Eddie Merrins. Methods are somewhat similar; Merrins is forearms back and forearms through. DLT is hands back and forearms through. Both are simple. Stay in balance and let the club do the work.
  • The PearlThe Pearl Members Posts: 1,958 ✭✭
    OP,



    There are several threads that have some wonderful information about MDLT's method. I have adopted his principles and have been to MCC for three lessons. The book is a must read and also John Hayes has a paperback book about his time spent watching MDLT teach.
  • Jersey golferJersey golfer Members Posts: 446 ✭✭
    3eagles18 wrote:


    The book, Understanding the Golf Swing, is better than the DVD. But, they complement each other, and I have watched and read many times.



    I prefer Swing the Handle by Eddie Merrins. Methods are somewhat similar; Merrins is forearms back and forearms through. DLT is hands back and forearms through. Both are simple. Stay in balance and let the club do the work.




    Actually, Mr. de la Torre is very strict about the hands taking the club back and the arms swinging the club forward. He is quick to point out that his definition of arms is that area from the elbow to the shoulder and NOT the forearms.
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,771 ✭✭
    edited Apr 24, 2014 #8

    3eagles18 wrote:


    The book, Understanding the Golf Swing, is better than the DVD. But, they complement each other, and I have watched and read many times.



    I prefer Swing the Handle by Eddie Merrins. Methods are somewhat similar; Merrins is forearms back and forearms through. DLT is hands back and forearms through. Both are simple. Stay in balance and let the club do the work.




    Actually, Mr. de la Torre is very strict about the hands taking the club back and the arms swinging the club forward. He is quick to point out that his definition of arms is that area from the elbow to the shoulder and NOT the forearms.




    Jersey is correct and the point he is making is a major one. When you swing back with the hands as Manny teaches you will find yourself coiled at the top with the left arm extended, the right are bent at the elbow approximately 90 degrees, and the wrists cocked. When you swing forward as you should with the arms (upper arms) you will find the arm and wrist positions are retained well into the forward swing to be unleashed through the ball. If you swing forward with the hands or forearms that will not naturally be the case. So, if you covet the retained lag position, swing the whole club forward, with the arms, in one continuous motion, in the direction of the target and lag will be yours.



    Steve
  • 3eagles183eagles18 Members Posts: 915 ✭✭
    edited Apr 24, 2014 #9
    Suggest you search for posts by juststeve. You will receive a wealth of first-hand information. I feel that the key to DLT method is "one continuous motion" as stated by just steve.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • 3eagles183eagles18 Members Posts: 915 ✭✭
    I stand corrected.
  • bdcavabdcava bdcava Members Posts: 601 ✭✭
    Great method! I highly recommend the book.
  • upanddownupanddown Members Posts: 492 ClubWRX
    juststeve wrote:


    3eagles18 wrote:


    The book, Understanding the Golf Swing, is better than the DVD. But, they complement each other, and I have watched and read many times.



    I prefer Swing the Handle by Eddie Merrins. Methods are somewhat similar; Merrins is forearms back and forearms through. DLT is hands back and forearms through. Both are simple. Stay in balance and let the club do the work.




    Actually, Mr. de la Torre is very strict about the hands taking the club back and the arms swinging the club forward. He is quick to point out that his definition of arms is that area from the elbow to the shoulder and NOT the forearms.




    Jersey is correct and the point he is making is a major one. When you swing back with the hands as Manny teaches you will find yourself coiled at the top with the left arm extended, the right are bent at the elbow approximately 90 degrees, and the wrists cocked. When you swing forward as you should with the arms (upper arms) you will find the arm and wrist positions are retained well into the forward swing to be unleashed through the ball. If you swing forward with the hands or forearms that will not naturally be the case. So, if you covet the retained lag position, swing the whole club forward, with the arms, in one continuous motion, in the direction of the target and lag will be yours.



    Steve




    Thanks Steve.. I was curious about why the hands back and not the arms both ways.. I'm going to get the book and give it a try in a live round. Just messing around with pitch shots in the yard today and I could see that if you swing to the target (and do it correctly) you would never come over the top..
  • turtlekcturtlekc 1995 MN PGA WisconsinClubWRX Posts: 12,779 ClubWRX
    juststeve wrote:


    Manny taught me to swing the golf club, from scratch, in the late 60's and has been my mentor virtually ever since. He took me from literally never had hit a golf ball to a plus handicap at Milwaukee Country Club by the end of my second summer of very intense work. You can't do better than MDLT.



    Steve




    Steve, are you old enough to have known Harvey Ott? That maybe sounded wrong, please don't take it the wrong way...



    Kevin
    I could be wrong
    I've been wrong before
    I'll be wrong again
  • 1puttEagle1puttEagle Members Posts: 33
    atpope, thanks for the Golf Channel link. Somehow, I had never found that before.
  • The PearlThe Pearl Members Posts: 1,958 ✭✭
    upanddown wrote:

    juststeve wrote:


    3eagles18 wrote:


    The book, Understanding the Golf Swing, is better than the DVD. But, they complement each other, and I have watched and read many times.



    I prefer Swing the Handle by Eddie Merrins. Methods are somewhat similar; Merrins is forearms back and forearms through. DLT is hands back and forearms through. Both are simple. Stay in balance and let the club do the work.




    Actually, Mr. de la Torre is very strict about the hands taking the club back and the arms swinging the club forward. He is quick to point out that his definition of arms is that area from the elbow to the shoulder and NOT the forearms.




    Jersey is correct and the point he is making is a major one. When you swing back with the hands as Manny teaches you will find yourself coiled at the top with the left arm extended, the right are bent at the elbow approximately 90 degrees, and the wrists cocked. When you swing forward as you should with the arms (upper arms) you will find the arm and wrist positions are retained well into the forward swing to be unleashed through the ball. If you swing forward with the hands or forearms that will not naturally be the case. So, if you covet the retained lag position, swing the whole club forward, with the arms, in one continuous motion, in the direction of the target and lag will be yours.



    Steve




    Thanks Steve.. I was curious about why the hands back and not the arms both ways.. I'm going to get the book and give it a try in a live round. Just messing around with pitch shots in the yard today and I could see that if you swing to the target (and do it correctly) you would never come over the top..




    When I took my lessons he had me hit dozens and dozens of 1/2 and 3/4 wedges and than the same with the 7 iron. One aspect of MDLT's teachings that becomes significantly more obvious when you take a lesson in person is the attention to the mental aspect of swinging the club. Remember that the only thing that counts is the target and the club. No positions, no mental energy expended on trying to get the body to perform. One thing, at least in my opinion and Steve may disagree, is that Manuel is very specific with his words, both in the book and when taking a lesson, however, be careful of taking everything too literally. The more I pursue his method and reread the book and lesson notes, I realize that he is very specific with his methodology, not so that your goal is necessarily to execute with precision, but rather to present a clear mental picture of what you trying to do. I know that may sound confusing, but at least for me, it has been a revelation and freed me from complicating what is already a pretty streamlined approach to golf.
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,771 ✭✭
    Pearl:



    I don't disagree with you at all. Manny is trying to answer for his student the most important question of all. What do I need to do with the club to make the ball fly a predictable distance in the direction of the target? My observation is the vast majority of golfers, even those who have been coached by fine teachers, can't answer that question. They will be able to tell you all sorts of things about how they are trying to move their weight, or turn their hips, or trigger the downswing, but as Manny has already told you, those things don't matter. All that matters is what you do with the club.



    Manny uses precise terminology because he wants his students to know what to do with the club. What he want's them to do is a specific thing. It is not to swipe at the ball, pull push or lever the club, it is to swing the club, (swing having a particular meaniny) in the direction of the target. Many times I've heard him ask a student this series of questions. Manny: Do you know what to do? Student: Yes. Manny: when you do it does it work? Student:Yes. Manny: The continue to practice that until you do it better and more consistently. Only is a student answers a question with No is it necessary to check the swing to see what is going wrong. The diagnosis is always that the student is not really doing what they intend to do.



    You have had if I recall 3 lessons with Manny. Based on that you know what to do with the club. You can have a thousand more lessons and what to do with the club won't change. Correct is correct. He may help you actually do what you're trying to do, or to do it better, but what you are trying to do shouldn't change.



    That is why understand the principle is so important. You can't move the club the right way unless you know what the right way is. Manny gives his students the key to the right way puzzle.



    Steve
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,771 ✭✭
    upanddown wrote:

    juststeve wrote:


    3eagles18 wrote:


    The book, Understanding the Golf Swing, is better than the DVD. But, they complement each other, and I have watched and read many times.



    I prefer Swing the Handle by Eddie Merrins. Methods are somewhat similar; Merrins is forearms back and forearms through. DLT is hands back and forearms through. Both are simple. Stay in balance and let the club do the work.




    Actually, Mr. de la Torre is very strict about the hands taking the club back and the arms swinging the club forward. He is quick to point out that his definition of arms is that area from the elbow to the shoulder and NOT the forearms.




    Jersey is correct and the point he is making is a major one. When you swing back with the hands as Manny teaches you will find yourself coiled at the top with the left arm extended, the right are bent at the elbow approximately 90 degrees, and the wrists cocked. When you swing forward as you should with the arms (upper arms) you will find the arm and wrist positions are retained well into the forward swing to be unleashed through the ball. If you swing forward with the hands or forearms that will not naturally be the case. So, if you covet the retained lag position, swing the whole club forward, with the arms, in one continuous motion, in the direction of the target and lag will be yours.



    Steve




    Thanks Steve.. I was curious about why the hands back and not the arms both ways.. I'm going to get the book and give it a try in a live round. Just messing around with pitch shots in the yard today and I could see that if you swing to the target (and do it correctly) you would never come over the top..




    **** of a question and one I've never asked Manny. Why not arms both ways? Obviously we can't get the club over our right shoulder unless there is involvement of the arms so what's the story with that.



    I can only tell you my experience. When I allow myself to focus on the arms on the way back I feel it moves me off the ball. Too much weight goes to the right and I have to find a way to get it to the left side. Unnecessary complication. When I focus on my hands going back I arrive coiled and centered at the top of the back swing. My weight gets to the left side in the forward swing purely as a reaction. Simpler is better.



    Steve
  • The PearlThe Pearl Members Posts: 1,958 ✭✭
    edited Apr 25, 2014 #18
    juststeve wrote:


    Pearl:



    I don't disagree with you at all. Manny is trying to answer for his student the most important question of all. What do I need to do with the club to make the ball fly a predictable distance in the direction of the target? My observation is the vast majority of golfers, even those who have been coached by fine teachers, can't answer that question. They will be able to tell you all sorts of things about how they are trying to move their weight, or turn their hips, or trigger the downswing, but as Manny has already told you, those things don't matter. All that matters is what you do with the club.



    Manny uses precise terminology because he wants his students to know what to do with the club. What he want's them to do is a specific thing. It is not to swipe at the ball, pull push or lever the club, it is to swing the club, (swing having a particular meaniny) in the direction of the target. Many times I've heard him ask a student this series of questions. Manny: Do you know what to do? Student: Yes. Manny: when you do it does it work? Student:Yes. Manny: The continue to practice that until you do it better and more consistently. Only is a student answers a question with No is it necessary to check the swing to see what is going wrong. The diagnosis is always that the student is not really doing what they intend to do.



    You have had if I recall 3 lessons with Manny. Based on that you know what to do with the club. You can have a thousand more lessons and what to do with the club won't change. Correct is correct. He may help you actually do what you're trying to do, or to do it better, but what you are trying to do shouldn't change.



    That is why understand the principle is so important. You can't move the club the right way unless you know what the right way is. Manny gives his students the key to the right way puzzle.



    Steve




    Exactly. A lesson with MDLT is quite an experience, but there is no magic fairy dust he sprinkles on you when you step on the lesson tee. It is all in the book and the instruction is a very precise exercise in applying the principles in the book. There is no tinkering or winging it. There is no "try this" or "try that" or " your doing this, don't do that, do this" going on.



    The biggest leap, which took me a very long time to conquer was to completely focus on the club. For me, it is if I don't exist other than being the vehicle used to swing the club to the target. A very interesting mental image he suggested to me was during my swing to picture the target and picture the movement of the club throughout the entire swing toward the target. Notice there is no reference to the ball. This sounds odd, but I often use this mental practice at home. You can just relax and visualize how the club is supposed to move in the golf swing.



    Listen, he can tell you what you do wrong instantly. He had me pegged in about 6, 1/2 swing pitch shots. I have a very active upper body and I throw the club at the ball. Most teachers would tell you what you are doing wrong and commence to trying correct it. Manuel does not tell you what you do wrong. After having the usual discussion of "what you are trying to do", he phrased it something like this ..."Your intention is to hit at the ball with your upper body, I want your intention to be to swing the club to the target."
  • ericpaul2ericpaul2 Members Posts: 74
    JustSteve and Pearl,



    What do you think of Steve Stricker's swing in relation to MDLT's teaching? To me, his swing has that look and feel....simple, uncomplicated, very little timing required, just swing back and swing forward with no apparent effort to hold lag, or manipulate the handle or clubhead separately from the rest of the club. I find it hard to believe its a coincidence that he has lived most of his life within 2 hours of Milwaukee.
  • Sean2Sean2 #TheWRX (Callaway Trip) Members Posts: 30,826 ✭✭
    juststeve wrote:


    Manny taught me to swing the golf club, from scratch, in the late 60's and has been my mentor virtually ever since. He took me from literally never had hit a golf ball to a plus handicap at Milwaukee Country Club by the end of my second summer of very intense work. You can't do better than MDLT.



    Steve




    Steve, when I looked at the top teachers in the world in Golf Digest I got a real laugh. Here you got all these guys with their $500, $300 mega dollars an hour, and there is Manny at $80 an hour. :-)
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  • The PearlThe Pearl Members Posts: 1,958 ✭✭
    ericpaul2 wrote:


    JustSteve and Pearl,



    What do you think of Steve Stricker's swing in relation to MDLT's teaching? To me, his swing has that look and feel....simple, uncomplicated, very little timing required, just swing back and swing forward with no apparent effort to hold lag, or manipulate the handle or clubhead separately from the rest of the club. I find it hard to believe its a coincidence that he has lived most of his life within 2 hours of Milwaukee.




    I actually asked this question. Good call, he told me that he thought Stricker swung as close to his method as anybody. He also mentioned that he thought Tom Watson had the best swing of the modern players. He did not say if he worked or crossed path with Stricker in terms of instruction. I know that he did give Moe Norman a lesson. I also think JustSteve played with Manny and Moe once.
  • ericpaul2ericpaul2 Members Posts: 74
    I just find it interesting that the pro that most epitomizes MDLT's concept for the swing also happens to live in the same state, yet I've never heard the two discussed in the same breath/article/post.



    To me, anecdotally we should learn a lesson from Stricker. Maintain a simple swing and there's very little to go wrong. He takes weeks off from competition and then immediately returns to form when needed. I'm not saying there's no practice required, but simple means consistency and confidence.
  • Sean2Sean2 #TheWRX (Callaway Trip) Members Posts: 30,826 ✭✭
    I really like Mr. Stricker's swing. Sometimes we get a thread about whose swing would you like to have. Me? I would take his. :-)
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  • ericpaul2ericpaul2 Members Posts: 74
    A little research and I think it's impossible that there wasn't some influence. Manuel and Dennis Tiziani were both very active in WPGA, they must have known each other relatively well. Dennis Tiziani, in addition to being the golf coach at UW for years, is also Stricker's father-in-law and, at the very least, a swing adviser if not all out swing coach. On top of that, Manuel, Tiziani, and Stricker all have their names on records and past champions lists all over Wisconsin.
  • RBImGuyRBImGuy Banned Posts: 2,248
    Sean2 wrote:


    I really like Mr. Stricker's swing. Sometimes we get a thread about whose swing would you like to have. Me? I would take his. :-)




    I assume Stricker might disagree you taking his swing from him.

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  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,771 ✭✭
    It would be very difficult for a Wisconsin Golfer to grow up without being influenced to some extent by Manuel de la Torre. He is a looming presence in Wisconsin Golf. That said I would be interested in knowing from Stricker himself how he believes his swing is powered. Does he power it with his arms allowing his body to respond, or does he move his arms with his pivot? In a swing as well coordinated as his it is very hard to tell just by looking.



    Steve
  • RBImGuyRBImGuy Banned Posts: 2,248
    juststeve wrote:


    Does he power it with his arms allowing his body to respond, or does he move his arms with his pivot? In a swing as well coordinated as his it is very hard to tell just by looking.



    Steve


    Pivot driven allowing his body to respond to arms falling.

    He does that really well.
    Knows the secret to the golf swing to own it.
    300+ yards and 4% dispersion for unmatched accuracy
    Golf God
  • juststevejuststeve Members Posts: 4,771 ✭✭
    RBImGuy wrote:

    juststeve wrote:


    Does he power it with his arms allowing his body to respond, or does he move his arms with his pivot? In a swing as well coordinated as his it is very hard to tell just by looking.



    Steve


    Pivot driven allowing his body to respond to arms falling.

    He does that really well.




    And you know that how? Could be true but experience teaches me that well done the MDLT swing is hard to distinguish from the body driven swing. I love to hear Stricker say what he's doing.



    Steve.
  • ericpaul2ericpaul2 Members Posts: 74
    I have to say it is hard to determine without asking the golfer, but I think generally pivot driven swings appear to show more "effort" with the body than Sticker shows. I don't see any great effort like I see with a Dustin Johnson or Tiger Woods. That's not an absolute though. Certainly there's some contribution.



    Still, here is a quote from the Golf Digest swing sequence article:



    "Tiziani says Stricker's armsy action is more reliable under pressure."
  • RBImGuyRBImGuy Banned Posts: 2,248
    juststeve wrote:

    RBImGuy wrote:

    juststeve wrote:


    Does he power it with his arms allowing his body to respond, or does he move his arms with his pivot? In a swing as well coordinated as his it is very hard to tell just by looking.



    Steve


    Pivot driven allowing his body to respond to arms falling.

    He does that really well.




    And you know that how? Could be true but experience teaches me that well done the MDLT swing is hard to distinguish from the body driven swing. I love to hear Stricker say what he's doing.



    Steve.




    You can see that on what muscles activate in what order as he swings and how the sequence fire and how much effort is applied in the firing.

    If he didnt do that his sequence would be different.

    Even if you asked him he wouldnt have a clue what he does when he swings.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w33kppJ5Mas
    Knows the secret to the golf swing to own it.
    300+ yards and 4% dispersion for unmatched accuracy
    Golf God
  • ericpaul2ericpaul2 Members Posts: 74
    MDLT does not disagree with the generally accepted sequence of movement. He also is not implying that is model swing should look like a rank beginner trying to keep their body still and swing just their arms.



    What he does say though is that the golfer's muscles will respond to the golfer's intended concept of the golf swing. If the golfer's mind is "in the club" with the intention of swinging the whole club towards the target (in his book he talks about everything rotating at the same speed - club head, shaft, and handle), then the correct body movements will be made more consistently. He absolutely states that consciously holding lag or trying to "hit late" is not going to result in the best result in a repeatable fashion. That's what we see in Stricker's swing...no intention to time a release of wrist ****, just letting that lag be a result of the speed of the swing. Now, whether he is trying to add some "effort" with the body is a totally different question.



    In my mind, his practice swings look powered almost completely by the arms, while the full swing looks more as if the whole body is engaged, as opposed to many pros who look like the practice swing is all body, no arms (the old glove under the armpit swing).

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