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Overwhelmed with fitting - thoughts/suggestions please?

 AlohaJoe ·  
AlohaJoeAlohaJoe Members  70WRX Points: 33Posts: 70 Bunkers
Joined:  in WRX Club Techs #1

If this gets long: the short of it is, I bought clubs w/ 105g (S) shafts and wonder if the shafts are too light for me. But how can I properly choose with limited cage time when it takes time to adjust, and I'm still regaining consistency?

I haven't been serious or consistent about golf in a very long time. Played in HS in the 1990's and regularly shot 80s. I played 3x last year, and last week decided to get serious with golf group, evaluation, clinic, practicing, new clubs, etc. Currently playing 'Bogey Golf' on average difficulty courses. Biggest problem is consistency - hitting thin/fat.

My Gamer: TA 845 SilverScot (1990s) with Tour Step (R) 130g shaft. I've never felt the shaft load, the feeling is harsh at times and it's tough to feel where I'm hitting on the face. Shots are straight, high, short. Common miss is slight pull (straight) left, less common is slight draw. My goal is a softer feel, modern look, and whatever distance comes with a new club. But most importantly just something that fits.

I made mistake of getting swing evaluation/lesson before getting a fitting, so on top of being rusty, I now have a different swing and my consistency is very bad. Twice I tried 105g (S) shafts in 2 different golf shops. Both times I was told immediately shaft was too light because of bad hits. 120g + gets me back under ball. My thought is that it takes time to adjust, and I'm rusty.

I go to fitting: Mizuno DNA (7i): 85, 5, 5, 5, 4. Measurements put club length in middle of range. Lie is slight toe down impact. Don't have TM specifics but my TAs are short (less than 150 carry) and miss 'the zone' in almost every category. Tech recommends #2 shaft which is PM 105 X. After a few bad hits he says shaft is too light (familiar?!) By end of evaluation, he likes 130g X but I don't, so we settle on KBS Tour S with Mizuno JPX HM or Forged (tech says stay away from Tour!). With basically every shaft and every game improvement club, my numbers are all in 'the zone', smash is 1.39, carry is 160-165, and spin at low end but in the blue and landing angle at upper end (high 40s) but in the blue.

I go look at used clubs and find 919 Tour w/ PM 105 S shaft, and compare to 919F with PX LZ 5.5 (Mizuno recommendation for 79mph COLD swing). I CRUSH 3 shots with Tour, feels great and I somehow feel like every shot is in SS but just off to toe side. I put tape on face, hit 7 more balls and find 6 all in the same spot - exactly where I felt! 1 mis-hit, again felt just where it was (low and toe). Then I hit Forge and am all over the place! Maybe more heel than toe. Looking at only good shots, I'm straighter and farther with Tour and the feel is good, so I buy it.

I play Saturday and 'my' feel is bad - where I am relative to ground and ball. Afterthought is it feels like club length is off. Can't hit 5i, missing thin/fat on short irons but they're straight and far when good contact. Clubs are stock length but long irons are longer than TA 845s, and the grips are ENORMOUS (thick). Now I wonder if I should have got GI club for sole thickness? Granted it rained before I played so course was soft. They forgot to give me grass seed so I think I was even more conscious about taking divots.

Back at store I have tech make 919F with KBS Tour S (the fitting recommendation) and it feels like a slow, heavy weight at the end of a noodle! I compare to my 919T and I can't hit either! But now I hate the 'game improvement' or low CG feel of the Forged! And maybe it seems like the 'softness' of the GI Forged masks a bit of feel?

So how do I pick a shaft/club? The hind sight says I should have waited until I was warmed up, but I already bought something and have a limited exchange period. Was 105g shaft a mistake? Was the Tour a mistake?

Thanks for reading! It was so much easier when it was just "regular of stiff"!

Posted:
«1
2

Comments

  • mizuno playermizuno player Mizuno player Members  1757WRX Points: 401Posts: 1,757 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #2

    My first question is. Was this a "box" store like Golf Galaxy, Dicks etc ..??

    If so I would find a reputable true fitter in your area. A good knowledge fitter can help you through this process.

    If it was a true fitter find another.
    If you read through a lot of similar threads and questions. Shaft length and weight are most important in a fitting. Once you find the right shaft for you then pick a club.

    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • ChipNRunChipNRun Members  2496WRX Points: 622Posts: 2,496 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Sep 5, 2019 #3

    On -, @AlohaJoe said:

    If this gets long: the short of it is, I bought clubs w/ 105g (S) shafts and wonder if the shafts are too light for me. But how can I properly choose with limited cage time when it takes time to adjust, and I'm still regaining consistency?

    I haven't been serious or consistent about golf in a very long time. ...

    My Gamer: TA 845 SilverScot (1990s) with Tour Step (R) 130g shaft. I've never felt the shaft load, the feeling is harsh at times and it's tough to feel where I'm hitting on the face...

    I go to fitting: Mizuno DNA (7i): 85, 5, 5, 5, 4. Measurements put club length in middle of range. Lie is slight toe down impact. Don't have TM specifics but my TAs are short (less than 150 carry) and miss 'the zone' in almost every category. Tech recommends #2 shaft which is PM 105 X. After a few bad hits he says shaft is too light (familiar?!) By end of evaluation, he likes 130g X but I don't, so we settle on KBS Tour S with Mizuno JPX HM or Forged (tech says stay away from Tour!). With basically every shaft and every game improvement club, my numbers are all in 'the zone', smash is 1.39, carry is 160-165, and spin at low end but in the blue and landing angle at upper end (high 40s) but in the blue.

    OK, let's try to be systematic in analyzing what happened. You have lots of data bits, but they are hard to convert into a pattern of information... So, fill us in...

    1. What is the model of irons you bought that have the 105 gr. stiff shafts (and what is the shaft model?) Are the clubs stock/standard length for the set?
    2. Did you get fitted for your legacy TA 845s? If so, has your height increased since you got them? This could influence ideas shaft length and lie angle.
    3. It seems like one of the Mizuno pair with the KBS Tour - Stiff may be what you need. The shaft is pretty much "middle earth" for the KBS shafts: mid-spin and mid-launch, weighs in at 120 grams (slightly heavier than average). You can increase spin if needed in a ball fitting.
    4. After a multi-year layoff from serious golf, give yourself time for your swing to reappear. Play wet ground, dry ground and look for patterns. Devote this first season to relearning the game.

    Also, what type of place gave you your fitting? You and the fitter seem to be on different planets.

    Posted:
    What's In The Bag *...

    Driver: Calla XR16 Pro 10.5° (set open) / Fuji Evolution II TS Speeder 665 R-flex 63 gr.
    FWs: Tour Edge XRail 4W + 7W / GraphiteDesign G60 R-flex 60 gr.
    or Calla Alpha 815, set 16° + 20° / Fuji Motore Speeder 665 R-flex 62 gr.
    Hybrid: Cobra FlyZ 3H 19° + 4H 22° / Matrix VLCT Altus Lite flex 73 gr.
    Irons: Tour Edge CB Pro Tungsten 4i - PW** / KBS Tour 90 R-flex 101 gr.
           4i refitted with SteelFiber 780 HLS Hybrid shaft R Flex 75 gr.
    Wedge: Calla MD3 48°/8.SS + 54°/12.WS + MD.PM 60°/10  | KBS Tour R-flex 110 gr.  | Note: MD4 58°/8.C-grind may replace MD/PM
    Putter: Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced) / 34" w. Ping Pistol PP60 grip (stock)
    Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag
    Ball: Calla SuperHot - orange
    * Either 7W or 3H left out, depending on course and season.
    ** Wedges: 46°and 48°are competing for bag space.
  • ChipNRunChipNRun Members  2496WRX Points: 622Posts: 2,496 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #4

    On -, @mizuno player said:

    My first question is. Was this a "box" store like Golf Galaxy, Dicks etc ..??

    First a clarification. Dick's flirts with being a "big box" store, but Golf Galaxy is a specialty retailer.

    And, finding a good fitter can be a challenge. I have found excellent fitters in small "custom" golf shops, as well as very poor fitters. I have found excellent fitters in golf specialty retailers, as well as very poor fitters. You have to know what to look for.

    Does the fitter listen to what you want, take baseline data from your current set. Or, does he or she push just one brand at you?

    One of the things you have to do is look on the wall of either type of shop. Do the fitters have training certificates from GolfWorks or the OEM training schools? If not, you'll get a hit-and-miss retail fitting rather than a thorough golf fitting.

    Posted:
    What's In The Bag *...

    Driver: Calla XR16 Pro 10.5° (set open) / Fuji Evolution II TS Speeder 665 R-flex 63 gr.
    FWs: Tour Edge XRail 4W + 7W / GraphiteDesign G60 R-flex 60 gr.
    or Calla Alpha 815, set 16° + 20° / Fuji Motore Speeder 665 R-flex 62 gr.
    Hybrid: Cobra FlyZ 3H 19° + 4H 22° / Matrix VLCT Altus Lite flex 73 gr.
    Irons: Tour Edge CB Pro Tungsten 4i - PW** / KBS Tour 90 R-flex 101 gr.
           4i refitted with SteelFiber 780 HLS Hybrid shaft R Flex 75 gr.
    Wedge: Calla MD3 48°/8.SS + 54°/12.WS + MD.PM 60°/10  | KBS Tour R-flex 110 gr.  | Note: MD4 58°/8.C-grind may replace MD/PM
    Putter: Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced) / 34" w. Ping Pistol PP60 grip (stock)
    Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag
    Ball: Calla SuperHot - orange
    * Either 7W or 3H left out, depending on course and season.
    ** Wedges: 46°and 48°are competing for bag space.
  • Oett11Oett11 Columbia MoMembers  156WRX Points: 44Handicap: 6.3Posts: 156 Fairways
    Joined:  #5

    I played the scots in the tour step stiff back in the early 2000's and just a few yrs ago got back into playing regularly, pulled the scots out for a few months till I got some new ones. I switched to a set of taylormade cb 2015 with kbs tour 120, it took a month or so to get used to the new shafts bc the feel and weight were noticably different. If i recall correctly the 845's standard played about an 1/2 inch shorter then the modern day length on most brands today so I got so used to playing clubs too short for me it took awhile to adjust to my proper length that i'm currently playing.

    Posted:

    Taylormade SIm 9* RIPx 75 S tipped .75
    Callaway Mavrik SZ 15* Rogue White 70x
    Mizuno clk 19* Tensei Pro white 90
    Wilson Staff Model 4-pw X100 ss1
    Wilson Staff Model 50/56
    Odssey Stroke Lab #3 35

  • AlohaJoeAlohaJoe Members  70WRX Points: 33Posts: 70 Bunkers
    Joined:  edited Sep 5, 2019 #6

    Thanks for responding to such a long post :)
    I went to a "Top 100" fitter - not at a box store. The focus was primarily on shafts - I hit the 919HM and several shafts, then when settled on KBS Tour Stiff we tried a few different heads. I don't disagree with the recommendation of 919HM and KBS Tour Stiff based on the data. But the fitting was all about what the tech thought was right, not so much what I wanted (I wanted to hit 919T and 919F, and try PX ~5.5.) Unfortunately it's the same in the golf shops - I ask for specific combos and get something different that the tech thinks is a better choice.

    Answers to above:
    1) JPX-919 Tour with Nippon ProModus 3 105 Stiff shaft. I checked 6i against stock and it matched in length.
    2) I didn't get fitted for the TAs. The club pro (in 1994) watched me swing and decided for me. I was fat then, about same height.
    3) I went back and tried 919F with KBS Tour (S) and it felt heavy, slow, and soft compared to my 919T, but I can go back and try again. Maybe that's what I should be feeling? It felt like a weight on the end of a string.
    4) Great advice - will do. I'm actually in a 5 week clinic so I can hone in on fundamentals. Just need to decide on what club/shaft to use.

    Posted:
  • Oett11Oett11 Columbia MoMembers  156WRX Points: 44Handicap: 6.3Posts: 156 Fairways
    Joined:  #7

    On -, @AlohaJoe said:

    Thanks for responding to such a long post :)
    I went to a "Top 100" fitter - not at a box store. The focus was primarily on shafts - I hit the 919HM and several shafts, then when settled on KBS Tour Stiff we tried a few different heads. I don't disagree with the recommendation of 919HM and KBS Tour Stiff based on the data. But the fitting was all about what the tech thought was right, not so much what I wanted (I wanted to hit 919T and 919F, and try PX ~5.5.) Unfortunately it's the same in the golf shops - I ask for specific combos and get something different that the tech thinks is a better choice.

    Answers to above:
    1) JPX-919 Tour with Nippon ProModus 3 105 Stiff shaft. I checked 6i against stock and it matched in length.
    2) I didn't get fitted for the TAs. The club pro (in 1994) watched me swing and decided for me. I was fat then, about same height.
    3) I went back and tried 919F with KBS Tour (S) and it felt heavy, slow, and soft compared to my 919T, but I can go back and try again. Maybe that's what I should be feeling? It felt like a weight on the end of a string.
    4) Great advice - will do. I'm actually in a 5 week clinic so I can hone in on fundamentals. Just need to decide on what club/shaft to use.

    This site is great source of information and theres plenty of it. Plenty of info on the kbs and the px shafts, search it out and find the shaft you feel best hitting. Good luck

    Posted:

    Taylormade SIm 9* RIPx 75 S tipped .75
    Callaway Mavrik SZ 15* Rogue White 70x
    Mizuno clk 19* Tensei Pro white 90
    Wilson Staff Model 4-pw X100 ss1
    Wilson Staff Model 50/56
    Odssey Stroke Lab #3 35

  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • phatchrisrulesphatchrisrules Southern Ontario, CanadaUnregistered  2130WRX Points: 395Handicap: 6.5Posts: 2,130 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #8

    On -, @AlohaJoe said:

    If this gets long: the short of it is, I bought clubs w/ 105g (S) shafts and wonder if the shafts are too light for me. But how can I properly choose with limited cage time when it takes time to adjust, and I'm still regaining consistency?

    I haven't been serious or consistent about golf in a very long time. Played in HS in the 1990's and regularly shot 80s. I played 3x last year, and last week decided to get serious with golf group, evaluation, clinic, practicing, new clubs, etc. Currently playing 'Bogey Golf' on average difficulty courses. Biggest problem is consistency - hitting thin/fat.

    My Gamer: TA 845 SilverScot (1990s) with Tour Step (R) 130g shaft. I've never felt the shaft load, the feeling is harsh at times and it's tough to feel where I'm hitting on the face. Shots are straight, high, short. Common miss is slight pull (straight) left, less common is slight draw. My goal is a softer feel, modern look, and whatever distance comes with a new club. But most importantly just something that fits.

    I made mistake of getting swing evaluation/lesson before getting a fitting, so on top of being rusty, I now have a different swing and my consistency is very bad. Twice I tried 105g (S) shafts in 2 different golf shops. Both times I was told immediately shaft was too light because of bad hits. 120g + gets me back under ball. My thought is that it takes time to adjust, and I'm rusty.

    I go to fitting: Mizuno DNA (7i): 85, 5, 5, 5, 4. Measurements put club length in middle of range. Lie is slight toe down impact. Don't have TM specifics but my TAs are short (less than 150 carry) and miss 'the zone' in almost every category. Tech recommends #2 shaft which is PM 105 X. After a few bad hits he says shaft is too light (familiar?!) By end of evaluation, he likes 130g X but I don't, so we settle on KBS Tour S with Mizuno JPX HM or Forged (tech says stay away from Tour!). With basically every shaft and every game improvement club, my numbers are all in 'the zone', smash is 1.39, carry is 160-165, and spin at low end but in the blue and landing angle at upper end (high 40s) but in the blue.

    I go look at used clubs and find 919 Tour w/ PM 105 S shaft, and compare to 919F with PX LZ 5.5 (Mizuno recommendation for 79mph COLD swing). I CRUSH 3 shots with Tour, feels great and I somehow feel like every shot is in SS but just off to toe side. I put tape on face, hit 7 more balls and find 6 all in the same spot - exactly where I felt! 1 mis-hit, again felt just where it was (low and toe). Then I hit Forge and am all over the place! Maybe more heel than toe. Looking at only good shots, I'm straighter and farther with Tour and the feel is good, so I buy it.

    I play Saturday and 'my' feel is bad - where I am relative to ground and ball. Afterthought is it feels like club length is off. Can't hit 5i, missing thin/fat on short irons but they're straight and far when good contact. Clubs are stock length but long irons are longer than TA 845s, and the grips are ENORMOUS (thick). Now I wonder if I should have got GI club for sole thickness? Granted it rained before I played so course was soft. They forgot to give me grass seed so I think I was even more conscious about taking divots.

    Back at store I have tech make 919F with KBS Tour S (the fitting recommendation) and it feels like a slow, heavy weight at the end of a noodle! I compare to my 919T and I can't hit either! But now I hate the 'game improvement' or low CG feel of the Forged! And maybe it seems like the 'softness' of the GI Forged masks a bit of feel?

    So how do I pick a shaft/club? The hind sight says I should have waited until I was warmed up, but I already bought something and have a limited exchange period. Was 105g shaft a mistake? Was the Tour a mistake?

    Thanks for reading! It was so much easier when it was just "regular of stiff"!

    Okay first things first. Under no circumstances should you be using 130X, so your fitter was dead wrong on even suggesting that. It's going to feel like rebar to you at your swing speed. I am a bit confused as your post jumps around a lot. You were fit for 919F or Hot Metal Pros and you walked out and went elsewhere and bought the 919T despite your fitter telling you not to because it was too much club, right? So why are you now questioning if the fit was right when you didn't listen to the fitter in the first place? You shoot in the high 80s to low 90s, there is no reason on Earth you should be using the same irons as the #1 player in the world (Koepka). It makes zero sense why this was even on your radar.

    Second, there is a huge difference between just hitting balls into a screen vs. actually playing golf where uneven lies occur, wind, ground conditions, pressure to pull off the shot, and penalty areas around the green (water, bunkers, tall grass). Golf is not played indoors on a screen, you need to realistically assess what you need right now. Equipment is expensive yes, but this isn't going to be the last set of irons you ever play, is it? If they aren't (and I suspect they aren't), then go out and buy some that fit your ability level. I totally 100000% agree with your fitter that you are into Hot Metals or 919F IF MIZUNO is what you want to stick with. You need some cup face technology, you need some low point protection, you need some wider soles to help get the ball up on thin shots, and you need some MOI when your swing is in the dumps for the day...all things that these two irons have that the 919T doesn't have. There's a laundry list of other OEM clubs that will also fit this bill that also halfway maintain a player's look at address (Apex CF19, P790/M5, Forged Tec Black, Z565, C300 Forged, T200, i500/G410).

    Do yourself a favour and return the 919T or try and recoup some loss on them. The shaft is only about 1/3rd the battle here...you are hitting the clubs bad not because of the shaft but because the head is completely wrong for you. With your speed, something in the 110-120g range isn't far off for what you need (PX/PX LZ 5.5, Modus 120, DG120, KBS Tour, KBS C-Taper Lite, AMT Tour Black, Oban CT115, True Temper Elevate Tour), and so on. There is again a laundry list of shafts here that will fit the bill to what you need but first things first is you need to dump those irons and get something more forgiving. I fail to see how this is at all back on the fitter as you went against their recommendations both on head and shaft weight. This is all on you.

    Posted:

    Taylormade R510TP - Speeder 757
    Sonartec NP-99 14* and 17* - NV Green 85
    Nickent Genex 3DX 21* - Dynamic Gold SL
    Titleist 660 4-P - Dynamic Gold
    Cleveland 54* and 59* - Dynamic Gold
    Scotty Cameron Teryllium

  • arobbins3arobbins3 MichiganMembers  165WRX Points: 104Handicap: 3.5Posts: 165 Fairways
    Joined:  #9

    To me it just sounds like new clubs, new swing and just need more time on the course. It sounds like you do not like the grips - get new ones? That could help immediately.

    Posted:

    Cobra SZ (9.5°) - Tour AD-DI 6s
    Cobra SZ (14.5°) - Atmos Blue 7s
    Titleist T-MB (3) - Modus 105s
    Miura Y-Grind Blades (4-PW) - Modus 105s
    Titleist Vokey SM8 (50-54-60°)
    Scotty Cameron 2020 Special Select Newport 2

  • North ButteNorth Butte Members  11965WRX Points: 1,712Posts: 11,965 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #10

    I think you need to chalk the whole thing up to having made a mistake and it not working out.

    If you're in the early stages of a swing overhaul, I don't care what the fitting True Believers might say. You don't want any part of trying to determine properly fitting clubs. At least not when you already have a set that's at least basically usable for you.

    But a lot of the rest of your comments brings up another point. Not everyone in the world can spend a hour or two hitting indoors off a mat and determine what's going to be the proper clubs for them in the real world. I personally cannot. You may not be a candidate for that whole process in the first place.

    But first, get your swing sorted before even attempting anything like that.

    Posted:
    “1lb beefstak, with
    1pt bitter beer
    every 6 hours.
    1 ten-mile walk every morning.
    1 bed at 11 sharp every night.
    And don't stuff your head with things you don't understand.” 
  • TommyjTommyj Members  750WRX Points: 262Posts: 750 Golden Tee
    Joined:  #11

    Fitter told you: i) PM 105X was too light; and ii) stay away from the 919T. You went with the 919T with the 105S, which is 6g lighter than the 105X, which you were told was too light. I also like your comment: "I don't disagree with the recommendation of 919HM and KBS Tour Stiff based on the data. But the fitting was all about what the tech thought was right, not so much what I wanted". And now you are struggling with what's in your bag.

    Maybe you might consider returning or selling the 919T's and going with something closer to the fitter's recommendation. I would think that Hot Metal Pro would be a better choice if you need forgiveness and prefer more of a players iron look. And regarding shaft flex, I don't see an X if you are in the zone with a 7 iron carry of 160-165.

    Posted:
  • phatchrisrulesphatchrisrules Southern Ontario, CanadaUnregistered  2130WRX Points: 395Handicap: 6.5Posts: 2,130 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  #12

    On -, @Tommyj said:

    Fitter told you: i) PM 105X was too light; and ii) stay away from the 919T. You went with the 919T with the 105S, which is 6g lighter than the 105X, which you were told was too light. I also like your comment: "I don't disagree with the recommendation of 919HM and KBS Tour Stiff based on the data. But the fitting was all about what the tech thought was right, not so much what I wanted". And now you are struggling with what's in your bag.

    Maybe you might consider returning or selling the 919T's and going with something closer to the fitter's recommendation. I would think that Hot Metal Pro would be a better choice if you need forgiveness and prefer more of a players iron look. And regarding shaft flex, I don't see an X if you are in the zone with a 7 iron carry of 160-165.

    Amen. /thread IMO.

    OP, not everyone is cut out to play blades/super small CBs. Sure they look good but look at the LPGA Tour. Name me one player who doesn't play an iron that has some forgiveness to it. It's going to be a bit of a stretch.

    Posted:

    Taylormade R510TP - Speeder 757
    Sonartec NP-99 14* and 17* - NV Green 85
    Nickent Genex 3DX 21* - Dynamic Gold SL
    Titleist 660 4-P - Dynamic Gold
    Cleveland 54* and 59* - Dynamic Gold
    Scotty Cameron Teryllium

  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
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  • RogerinNewZealandRogerinNewZealand Maungakeikei Auckland New ZealandMembers  2919WRX Points: 305Posts: 2,919 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #13

    Sounds a bit like me last week..first golf in 4 months..relearning..but the 120gram dgr300 are excellent.Try mp52 53 54 60 62 63 64 or most any Bridgestone CB J36 J38 J40.Too lite equals no flow and consistency.Just go play 4 rounds and loosen up.cheers!

    Posted:
    2020 18 July mid winterNZ

    Ping Rapture 2006 10.5
    Nike VrS 3wood
    Callaway Razr Edge5 wood


    MP100=33 9876 5/mp63

    54     RTX2
    60     RTX2

    ProPlatinum NewportTwo
    2002 325gram +8.NewGrip
    Dont hesitate to buy one!







  • AlohaJoeAlohaJoe Members  70WRX Points: 33Posts: 70 Bunkers
    Joined:  #14

    Thanks everyone for the logical and valid comments and perspectives.

    I didn't mean to make it 100% about the fitter - he just gave me enough reason to second-guess: I went in asking to hit forged CB (919F) for feel, and found out afterward he only shafted cast heads because forged feel was worth the cost! I had to ask go back and try the 919F afterward. It felt amazing and I hit it well, so the recommendation was either for performance, HM for price. If he shafted a forged head to begin with, I'd have taken the suggestion not to hit the Tours more seriously.

    I just don't get how someone can say 105g is too light, based on a few bad hits after warming up with 130g, and particularly when I'm finding my swing again.

    I'm eager to get into 'my' set of clubs so I can use and develop with them in my clinic. But maybe the best thing is to use what I have for now, develop swing and get used to longer shafts before making final decision.

    Posted:
  • TommyjTommyj Members  750WRX Points: 262Posts: 750 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Sep 5, 2019 #15

    I would stick with your TA's for the clinic and until you've had a chance to assimilate any swing changes. The TA's were one of the best clubs of their generation, they weren't too big, didn't have huge offset and the MPF was around 700, so decent forgiveness. Nothing wrong with the shaft either, probably some sort of TT Dynamic derivative. Heavy by today's standards, but its an R flex so it probably plays more like an R+ in a current lightweight steel shaft. If you can't feel that shaft loading then I'm not sure how you are going to feel anything more with a KBS Tour S and a PX 5.5 is going to be even worse.

    Be patient, get your swing in decent shape and then go get fit without having any preconceived ideas about what you want.

    Standard spec for the 1988 TA's was a 36.75" 7 iron and 35.5" wedge. So if your set is standard then its just slightly shorter than today's standard length, nothing to lose sleep over.

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  • DaveMacDaveMac ScotlandUnregistered  3214WRX Points: 203Handicap: 9Posts: 3,214 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #16

    Mizuno DNA (7i): 85, 5, 5, 5, 4.

    Latest software (just updated for the MP 20 release) has the following starting recommendation. (Dynamic Gold 120 S300, C Taper lite X and Project X LZ 5.5)
    The reason for the recommendations a moderately aggressive swing (Tempo 5) and a reasonably late release (Release factor 4). Aggression is tempered using heavier shafts and a late release usually responds well to a more tip stable profile.
    The Modus 105 X comes in at number 10 and the KBS S Taper S and Tour S come in at 5 and 6 respectively.
    These are your starting suggestions but with a little systematic testing you should find your preferred match.
    If you want the Modus 105 S to work, transition a little smoother, see if that helps.

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  • AlohaJoeAlohaJoe Members  70WRX Points: 33Posts: 70 Bunkers
    Joined:  edited Sep 5, 2019 #17

    I noticed that the 919T and 919F are listed as having the same D2 swing weight. The T comes stock with 120g and the F comes with 105g shaft. I basically compared these clubs with opposite shafts (used clubs, not from cart), so doesn't that mean swing weight was significantly altered? That would help explain such a huge perceived difference.

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  • DaveMacDaveMac ScotlandUnregistered  3214WRX Points: 203Handicap: 9Posts: 3,214 Titanium Tees
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    Always a bit of wiggle room (manufacturer’s tolerances) where swing weights are concerned but stock builds usually run pretty close to paper specs.

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  • AlohaJoeAlohaJoe Members  70WRX Points: 33Posts: 70 Bunkers
    Joined:  edited Sep 6, 2019 #19

    On -, @DaveMac said:

    Mizuno DNA (7i): 85, 5, 5, 5, 4.

    Latest software (just updated for the MP 20 release) has the following starting recommendation. (Dynamic Gold 120 S300, C Taper lite X and Project X LZ 5.5) ... The Modus 105 X comes in at number 10 and the KBS S Taper S and Tour S come in at 5 and 6 respectively.

    Interesting - seems to have changed a little.

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  • Pi5seekerPi5seeker Members  896WRX Points: 125Posts: 896 Golden Tee
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    On -, @DaveMac said:

    Mizuno DNA (7i): 85, 5, 5, 5, 4.

    Latest software (just updated for the MP 20 release) has the following starting recommendation. (Dynamic Gold 120 S300, C Taper lite X and Project X LZ 5.5)
    The reason for the recommendations a moderately aggressive swing (Tempo 5) and a reasonably late release (Release factor 4). Aggression is tempered using heavier shafts and a late release usually responds well to a more tip stable profile.
    The Modus 105 X comes in at number 10 and the KBS S Taper S and Tour S come in at 5 and 6 respectively.
    These are your starting suggestions but with a little systematic testing you should find your preferred match.
    If you want the Modus 105 S to work, transition a little smoother, see if that helps.

    Both DNA tests I did had different results. The newer software showed...

    1- X100 SS
    2- S300 HS
    3. C-Taper S
    Older software...
    1- KBS Tour S
    2- Modus 120X
    3- XP115 S

    I ended up going with the 5th best on the older software (don't remember where it was on the new) LZ 6.0 and couldn't be happier.

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11645WRX Points: 2,300Posts: 11,645 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Sep 6, 2019 #21

    If you want the set you bought to work better, we cant change shaft or heads, but can still make them work better....

    Shaft weight...simply add lead tape on the underside of the shaft heel to grip about the middle of the shaft. This way you can dial in what ever shaft weight you like to try off, "all else equal", so if feel of flex is good, and weight too low, it can be fixed with lead tape.

    Heads...try lead tape again, most places who does "fitting", only uses the heads they have at hand, they hardly ever try a different head weight, but it might make a HUGE difference for your impact so try 2-4 grams lead tape added to the heads.

    Lie angles, depending on how they was judged, they might be off from what you should play. That also has the potential to move impact, so make sure lie angles is right by using the ball marker test, NOT lie boards.

    If shaft weight tuning, head weight tuning and lie angle tuning cant make it for you, your choice of heads is not good for you, so try this tune up, it will no matter what help you to find the right shaft weight instead of guessing.

    '

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  • TommyjTommyj Members  750WRX Points: 262Posts: 750 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Sep 6, 2019 #22

    On -, @AlohaJoe said:

    I noticed that the 919T and 919F are listed as having the same D2 swing weight. The T comes stock with 120g and the F comes with 105g shaft. I basically compared these clubs with opposite shafts (used clubs, not from cart), so doesn't that mean swing weight was significantly altered? That would help explain such a huge perceived difference.

    Modus 120-S weighs 114g and 105-S is 106.5g (both untrimmed), so at most you would see 1 point difference in SW if the two shafts have the same balance point. More than likely given the tolerances in shaft and grip weights you'd get almost identical SW with the 105 and 120.

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  • North ButteNorth Butte Members  11965WRX Points: 1,712Posts: 11,965 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #23

    On -, @Tommyj said:

    On -, @AlohaJoe said:

    I noticed that the 919T and 919F are listed as having the same D2 swing weight. The T comes stock with 120g and the F comes with 105g shaft. I basically compared these clubs with opposite shafts (used clubs, not from cart), so doesn't that mean swing weight was significantly altered? That would help explain such a huge perceived difference.

    Modus 120-S weighs 114g and 105-S is 106.5g (both untrimmed), so at most you would see 1 point difference in SW if the two shafts have the same balance point. More than likely given the tolerances in shaft and grip weights you'd get almost identical SW with the 105 and 120.

    Nippon lists the 120-S balance point at 50.1 and the 105-S at 50.4 which are very similar. So unlikely much of a balance-point effect on SW between the two, less than a quarter point.

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11645WRX Points: 2,300Posts: 11,645 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #24

    On -, @North Butte said:

    On -, @Tommyj said:

    On -, @AlohaJoe said:

    I noticed that the 919T and 919F are listed as having the same D2 swing weight. The T comes stock with 120g and the F comes with 105g shaft. I basically compared these clubs with opposite shafts (used clubs, not from cart), so doesn't that mean swing weight was significantly altered? That would help explain such a huge perceived difference.

    Modus 120-S weighs 114g and 105-S is 106.5g (both untrimmed), so at most you would see 1 point difference in SW if the two shafts have the same balance point. More than likely given the tolerances in shaft and grip weights you'd get almost identical SW with the 105 and 120.

    Nippon lists the 120-S balance point at 50.1 and the 105-S at 50.4 which are very similar. So unlikely much of a balance-point effect on SW between the two, less than a quarter point.

    In my excel app, (weight and BP) the difference become 16 MOI points and for a #9 iron i did the run for, thats exactly 2 grams difference to head weight on that #9, and its 2.26 grams for 1 SWP at 36.00" so on the SW scale the return values should be 0.88 SWP as difference.

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  • AlohaJoeAlohaJoe Members  70WRX Points: 33Posts: 70 Bunkers
    Joined:  edited Sep 6, 2019 #25

    If there's a ~1 (0.88) SWP delta between shafts, then wouldn't a shaft swap double it between clubs? +0.88 to 919F (D2->D3) and -0.88 from 919T (D2->D1)? I'm new to all this so not sure what that would feel like.

    That said, I changed grips on 7i and it's a big difference! .60 shaft went from .60 midsize corded to .58 standard rubber. Slightly smaller finished diameter, 5g less weight in hands from grip specs. Statically (no swings yet) it "feels like" it moved center of mass from 1/4 way up the shaft, down closer to the head.

    Posted:
  • AlohaJoeAlohaJoe Members  70WRX Points: 33Posts: 70 Bunkers
    Joined:  #26

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    If you want the set you bought to work better, we cant change shaft or heads, but can still make them work better....

    Shaft weight...simply add lead tape on the underside of the shaft heel to grip about the middle of the shaft. This way you can dial in what ever shaft weight you like to try off, "all else equal", so if feel of flex is good, and weight too low, it can be fixed with lead tape.

    Heads...try lead tape again, most places who does "fitting", only uses the heads they have at hand, they hardly ever try a different head weight, but it might make a HUGE difference for your impact so try 2-4 grams lead tape added to the heads.

    If shaft weight tuning, head weight tuning and lie angle tuning cant make it for you, your choice of heads is not good for you, so try this tune up, it will no matter what help you to find the right shaft weight instead of guessing.

    '

    Thank you so much - I love this idea. So much easier (more time, less pressure) to figure out what I like. I'm glad I got the lighter heads and shafts, otherwise it wouldn't work!

    Posted:
  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11645WRX Points: 2,300Posts: 11,645 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Sep 7, 2019 #27

    On -, @AlohaJoe said:

    On -, @Howard Jones said:

    If you want the set you bought to work better, we cant change shaft or heads, but can still make them work better....

    Shaft weight...simply add lead tape on the underside of the shaft heel to grip about the middle of the shaft. This way you can dial in what ever shaft weight you like to try off, "all else equal", so if feel of flex is good, and weight too low, it can be fixed with lead tape.

    Heads...try lead tape again, most places who does "fitting", only uses the heads they have at hand, they hardly ever try a different head weight, but it might make a HUGE difference for your impact so try 2-4 grams lead tape added to the heads.

    If shaft weight tuning, head weight tuning and lie angle tuning cant make it for you, your choice of heads is not good for you, so try this tune up, it will no matter what help you to find the right shaft weight instead of guessing.

    '

    Thank you so much - I love this idea. So much easier (more time, less pressure) to figure out what I like. I'm glad I got the lighter heads and shafts, otherwise it wouldn't work!

    We can add weight this easy, but remove weight is not really a DIY option, so take your time, measure to find the middle of the shaft (about, most shafts is close to the center, MODUS a tad grip side with 0.25 to 3/8 above center, but it makes no difference here). Then measure the amount of leadtape needed (ex 10 grams = 38.1 cm). Mark the middle of the tape, and align with the MID shaft mark.

    Start with shaft weight, and when you have found something that feels right and improve impact pattern, start adding weight to the head. If it feels to heavy now, peel of some shaft weight, and keep head weight above starting point.

    We are messing with 3 parameters at once.
    Shaft weight - Head weight - Total weight, and they are all important, so when we feel its on the edge for Total weight, we must dial back on either shaft or head, so the job is to find Total weight, and how that weight shall be distributed between shaft and head to make the feel of balance and impact pattern we seek.

    If you have another player as helper, he can LOOK at you when you swing the club to judge Total weight and head weight resistance from your body-language, it never lies. IF Total wgt is over and beyon, WE the player dont always feel it, but the one who look at us swinging the club can SEE it....

    In transition, we want be able to start hip rotation as we should when the down swing starts. The player will "shoot his hips" target line, so its visible that he needs to use both power AND his body weight to "jump start" that club and make it move. Dial back until he can start hip rotation without too much "hips against the target", We all have some hip shooting, but its very visible when the player looses control of timing from the start of the swing.

    At the bottom of the swing, total weight pulls the club down against the ground, and we need some "pull" but not to much, then we have a fat one and make ground contact before the ball. To prevent that, we let the player take a one arm "back hand tennis stroke. Assist the club with the right hand to the top with 2 fingers only, but let the left arm alone swing the club from the top and down.

    If total weight is too high, the players left shoulder will "snap" around 7 o clock, we can clearly see that the shoulder dont have strength enough to prevent the club from hitting the ground, so at 7 o clock the shoulder snaps and the club goes deeper = fat shot.

    During play, this player will need to "hold back" the club using his right hand to prevent a fat shot, and that makes a drop of club speed from more grip pressure and a "not relaxed" right arm, so dont go over the point where the left arm alone can handle the club.

    Thats how we prevent both fat shots and loss of club speed, plus we dont mess up timing from a bad start on the top with a lack of hip rotation.

    If we navigate this way, and use feel, visual inspection of the swing, and impact pattern, we will make it right, so never mind "numbers", just go by "more or less" or "too little and too much", meaning use "the human scale" for judgement during trial and error. The other scales belongs to the works shop area, not the fitting area.

    When the "fitting club" is tuned up, its time for the work shop to measure specs and duplicate them to clubs we shall play.

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  • AlohaJoeAlohaJoe Members  70WRX Points: 33Posts: 70 Bunkers
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    Today I tried adding weight to the shaft. I started with 12g taped at the center of the shaft, which should make total 118g. Statically it felt similar to heavier shaft but didn’t feel right at all swinging. I figured a heavier shaft would have the weight spread out, so then I tried a few weights just below the grip, and same amount of weight same distance from opposite end of club. It was better, still didn’t feel right. Last thing I tried was 2g taped to the bottom of the shaft. It feels similar to 2g taped behind the club face. I like this better - I’m more aware of where the club head is during swing. After a few hits I try w/o tape, and first it felt worse. Then, I figured ‘slow down and see if I can feel club head weight.’ So I did, and I did! If I swing slower - at least backswing/transition slower, I can feel the head and can feel the shaft flex more through the swing. Somehow it makes the shaft feel softer?? Also ball seems to launch a little lower (which is better!) I played 9 at Ko’olina and shot OK. Some bad shots when thinking too much about slowing down, also some great shots.

    Not sure what to do at this point.

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11645WRX Points: 2,300Posts: 11,645 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #29

    You have to place the lead tape grip to head - along with the shafts direction, we cant add it on 1 or 2 spots, but distributed out from the center of the shaft, thats the only way to simulate a higher shaft weight and get the right feel of that.

    A quick tempo is solved with more head weight, but it want work unless total weight is right, so you most likely need added weight on both the shaft and the head, the job is to figure out how much on each and what total.

    If you have to focus on slowing down, you need more weight so you can swing as you feel like.

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  • AlohaJoeAlohaJoe Members  70WRX Points: 33Posts: 70 Bunkers
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    Thanks - taping the length of the shaft obviously makes much more sense. I don’t know what I read that confused me.

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  • Howard_JonesHoward_Jones Members  11645WRX Points: 2,300Posts: 11,645 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @AlohaJoe said:

    Thanks - taping the length of the shaft obviously makes much more sense. I don’t know what I read that confused me.

    My bad, i only wrote "Mark the middle of the tape, and align with the MID shaft mark."...but should have used other words and explained we have to use "head to grip direction" both ways from the approximate middle (or BP of the shaft)
    if it was only 2 grams, this dont matter, but when we add as much as 10 grams, it want feel the same as a 10 grams plus shaft unless we place the tape so weight is distributed against both head and grip like it would on a shaft.

    So, sorry for bad instructions from my side, the fault is mine, i know better, and should have expressed this more correct than i did, no wonder you did not make it.

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