The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

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  • WILDTHINGWILDTHING Banned Posts: 621 ✭✭


    No on your last question.



    First question, some of the 3D systems miss the asi, certainly. At least the really important part of zero independent upper arm motion (across mid-line laterally - not upper arm rotation) in the shoulder sockets during Release until just after impact. I discussed this issue in depth in my Module Five Part B video on the Release. This is the most counter-intuitive aspect of the golf swing, imo. 3D systems will no doubt evolve and improve. Hogan understood this and told it to Weiskopf, who shared it with me at the 1977 PGA championship at Pebble. "Super-Connection" is the term for this.



    Ryke effect is nothing new - just an old concept re-packaged.



    Yes - there is forearm roll in the Release, counter-clockwise. What I call the "small circle" inside the "big circle" of the Pivot.



    As long as the arm roll happens with at least some wrist ****, it has an effect on clubhead path and angle of attack, ie moves path leftwards and steepens the angle of attack. Once the wrist **** is done, then no more effect on path and angle of attack.




    Many thanks for the reply Jim
  • Travis DuckroTravis Duckro Members Posts: 291 ✭✭
    Jim,



    Does the takeway start with the push away or the shoulder turn? Sorry for the basic question.



    Thanks,

    Travis
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭


    Jim,



    Does the takeway start with the push away or the shoulder turn? Sorry for the basic question.



    Thanks,

    Travis




    Depends on the way the student I am working with is doing takeaway. In the ideal or "model" - pivot of core and torso, arm pushaway and start of wrists c0cking and hinging all start at the same moment in time and are blended together into one seamless motion. But often I have some students intend to start with one of those three before the other two, if they are already struggling with poor blending. But for some students starting with core/torso pivot first and then a micro-second later the arms and wrists action works really well.



    Most folks when first hearing about the ASI way overdo the arm pushaway and start the arms way early, with the result that the plane of the shaft is too outside and too steep.
  • Travis DuckroTravis Duckro Members Posts: 291 ✭✭



    Jim,



    Does the takeway start with the push away or the shoulder turn? Sorry for the basic question.



    Thanks,

    Travis




    Depends on the way the student I am working with is doing takeaway. In the ideal or "model" - pivot of core and torso, arm pushaway and start of wrists c0cking and hinging all start at the same moment in time and are blended together into one seamless motion. But often I have some students intend to start with one of those three before the other two, if they are already struggling with poor blending. But for some students starting with core/torso pivot first and then a micro-second later the arms and wrists action works really well.



    Most folks when first hearing about the ASI way overdo the arm pushaway and start the arms way early, with the result that the plane of the shaft is too outside and too steep.




    Thank you so much. Would it be wrong to say that the shoulders start the pivot into the core into the arm and wrist action? That's how I am understanding this. In my current swing my thought is to start by rotating the left shoulder around the core, getting the weight into the back heel then planting into the left ball of foot to start the downswing.



    BTW, I'm sure its answered in the 139 pages here so I apologize for any duplication.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭




    Jim,



    Does the takeway start with the push away or the shoulder turn? Sorry for the basic question.



    Thanks,

    Travis




    Depends on the way the student I am working with is doing takeaway. In the ideal or "model" - pivot of core and torso, arm pushaway and start of wrists c0cking and hinging all start at the same moment in time and are blended together into one seamless motion. But often I have some students intend to start with one of those three before the other two, if they are already struggling with poor blending. But for some students starting with core/torso pivot first and then a micro-second later the arms and wrists action works really well.



    Most folks when first hearing about the ASI way overdo the arm pushaway and start the arms way early, with the result that the plane of the shaft is too outside and too steep.




    Thank you so much. Would it be wrong to say that the shoulders start the pivot into the core into the arm and wrist action? That's how I am understanding this. In my current swing my thought is to start by rotating the left shoulder around the core, getting the weight into the back heel then planting into the left ball of foot to start the downswing.



    BTW, I'm sure its answered in the 139 pages here so I apologize for any duplication.




    Not "shoulders" the way most folks understand that word. Core is your belly, both front and side abs, and lower back, including glutes. Torso and chest and shoulder girdle are kind of synonymous in golf instruction. Core starts first - in any athletic motion - then torso, then hips. Core and Torso basically pull the hips around if you are reasonably fit and younger than age 60 or so. As you get older you will need to actively engage the hips to get them to rotate.



    Belly button rotating/shifting is the core first move, then torso/s girdle picks up the beat, then hips are pulled around from momentum of the core and torso rotation.



    BUT - it is not just rotation. There is also left side bend and moving from hip flexion into extension to some degree - a little on a driver and a lot on an L wedge.



    Not ball of left on Transition, it is already there at the Top. More into middle of left foot toe to heel, then left heel as downswing gets closer to impact.
  • Travis DuckroTravis Duckro Members Posts: 291 ✭✭
    edited Jun 13, 2018 #4207





    Jim,



    Does the takeway start with the push away or the shoulder turn? Sorry for the basic question.



    Thanks,

    Travis




    Depends on the way the student I am working with is doing takeaway. In the ideal or "model" - pivot of core and torso, arm pushaway and start of wrists c0cking and hinging all start at the same moment in time and are blended together into one seamless motion. But often I have some students intend to start with one of those three before the other two, if they are already struggling with poor blending. But for some students starting with core/torso pivot first and then a micro-second later the arms and wrists action works really well.



    Most folks when first hearing about the ASI way overdo the arm pushaway and start the arms way early, with the result that the plane of the shaft is too outside and too steep.




    Thank you so much. Would it be wrong to say that the shoulders start the pivot into the core into the arm and wrist action? That's how I am understanding this. In my current swing my thought is to start by rotating the left shoulder around the core, getting the weight into the back heel then planting into the left ball of foot to start the downswing.



    BTW, I'm sure its answered in the 139 pages here so I apologize for any duplication.




    Not "shoulders" the way most folks understand that word. Core is your belly, both front and side abs, and lower back, including glutes. Torso and chest and shoulder girdle are kind of synonymous in golf instruction. Core starts first - in any athletic motion - then torso, then hips. Core and Torso basically pull the hips around if you are reasonably fit and younger than age 60 or so. As you get older you will need to actively engage the hips to get them to rotate.



    Belly button rotating/shifting is the core first move, then torso/s girdle picks up the beat, then hips are pulled around from momentum of the core and torso rotation.



    BUT - it is not just rotation. There is also left side bend and moving from hip flexion into extension to some degree - a little on a driver and a lot on an L wedge.



    Not ball of left on Transition, it is already there at the Top. More into middle of left foot toe to heel, then left heel as downswing gets closer to impact.




    This is immensely helpful, the swing thought I have as I transition to the down swing is to "bump" down into the left ball of foot, linearly moving down the targets line into impact. By going into the middle and finishing on the left heel I'm guessing its promoting more of a rotational movement.



    Is getting the weight to the back right heel a bad swing thought in the upswing? I'm of the opinion that the Balance video you released will be good for me, will be purchasing.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭






    Jim,



    Does the takeway start with the push away or the shoulder turn? Sorry for the basic question.



    Thanks,

    Travis




    Depends on the way the student I am working with is doing takeaway. In the ideal or "model" - pivot of core and torso, arm pushaway and start of wrists c0cking and hinging all start at the same moment in time and are blended together into one seamless motion. But often I have some students intend to start with one of those three before the other two, if they are already struggling with poor blending. But for some students starting with core/torso pivot first and then a micro-second later the arms and wrists action works really well.



    Most folks when first hearing about the ASI way overdo the arm pushaway and start the arms way early, with the result that the plane of the shaft is too outside and too steep.




    Thank you so much. Would it be wrong to say that the shoulders start the pivot into the core into the arm and wrist action? That's how I am understanding this. In my current swing my thought is to start by rotating the left shoulder around the core, getting the weight into the back heel then planting into the left ball of foot to start the downswing.



    BTW, I'm sure its answered in the 139 pages here so I apologize for any duplication.




    Not "shoulders" the way most folks understand that word. Core is your belly, both front and side abs, and lower back, including glutes. Torso and chest and shoulder girdle are kind of synonymous in golf instruction. Core starts first - in any athletic motion - then torso, then hips. Core and Torso basically pull the hips around if you are reasonably fit and younger than age 60 or so. As you get older you will need to actively engage the hips to get them to rotate.



    Belly button rotating/shifting is the core first move, then torso/s girdle picks up the beat, then hips are pulled around from momentum of the core and torso rotation.



    BUT - it is not just rotation. There is also left side bend and moving from hip flexion into extension to some degree - a little on a driver and a lot on an L wedge.



    Not ball of left on Transition, it is already there at the Top. More into middle of left foot toe to heel, then left heel as downswing gets closer to impact.




    This is immensely helpful, the swing thought I have as I transition to the down swing is to "bump" down into the left ball of foot, linearly moving down the targets line into impact. By going into the middle and finishing on the left heel I'm guessing its promoting more of a rotational movement.



    Is getting the weight to the back right heel a bad swing thought in the upswing? I'm of the opinion that the Balance video you released will be good for me, will be purchasing.




    In the ideal model swing, the pressure does indeed go to the right heel, ie a "rotational weight shift" as opposed to a lateral sway kind of weight shift, which causes loss of Balance. Feels very coiled up in right hip, leg, knee and foot.



    Yes on your first insight. Hip girdle laterally shift straight "west" towards target and NOT "northwest" which can lead to early extension and loss of posture. Later stage of Transition it shifts to the "southwest" or left heel.
  • RobDMBRobDMB Members Posts: 385 ✭✭
    Interested in learning more about this - trying it. Best to start with the book or a certain video?
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  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    RobDMB wrote:


    Interested in learning more about this - trying it. Best to start with the book or a certain video?




    If you are mainly interested in the ASI concept and drills, then buy the video, Module Two on the ASI.



    E-book covers every single fundamental of the modern golf swing, plus a ton of info on how to learn and practice effectively.
  • FourTopsFourTops Banned Posts: 1,676 ✭✭
    Kiwi2 wrote:

    juststeve wrote:


    Kiwi2:



    You wrote:



    If we isolate the arm action from the pivot, they initially move at a 45 degree angle to the chest towards the

    target line until, for a right handed golfer, the right arm reaches waist

    high.



    Is that what you meant to say?



    Steve




    Yes.



    The pivot action is being disregarded here. The explanation relates to the arms independently. It is the only way I am aware of that the illusion can be explained. That is to isolate the arm movement.



    Jim prefers the term move away rather than takeaway. In his model there is no independent arm action in the first part of this movement. The term move away implies a body motion. The belly is used to initiate the backswing after a rebound from what he calls the bump. The arms don’t come into it yet. There is no pushing away of the arms at that stage. The arms will move however as a result of connection of the left arm. The independent arm motion kicks in when the hands reach the right hand side of the right leg .



    The explanation was not describing the takeaway or backswing.




    I think I agree...these things can be hard to explain in a paragraph. The takeaway is coordinated with the torso and arms? If that's what he's saying I agree. This would **** an arm-only back swing and promote weight xfer to the inside of the right foot.
  • getitdailygetitdaily Members Posts: 2,440 ✭✭
    Holy crap! I read a lot of this thread many weeks ago and couldn't grasp the concept. I'm a low single digit handicap and have always struggled with an inside, under the plane takeaway. I never lacked for turn in the backswing. But my shoulders always rotated flat. In the early 2000s I worked with a very good instructor who helped me with a straight back takeaway for about 2 feet and then work the club up with right elbow bend, all combined with limited hip rotation early. This worked really well but if my tempo was off I would set the club up late and get too much around. When i was able to hit balls 5 days a week i had much more consistent tempo.



    To combat this, I moved to a fade last year to get steeper on the way back. Things were good until early March when the steeper backswing got too steep and started to get a bit disconnected...think too much lift in relation to turn.



    Well, in my never ending endeavor to find out how my right elbow controlled my success, I stumbled on 2 things - Omar uresti's swing trigger and a video explaining how the arms simply move up and down (like chopping wood) as the body turns. I took that philosophy to the range yesterday...



    Turn and lift...no funky business with the hands, wrists, right elbow hinge, keeping the right shoulder high, etc. Just turn and lift.



    I think something g that works generally works right away or it's not a good fix. Using the feeling of lifting my arms up, literally feeling like they lift up in front of me WHILE I turned, rotated, etc...pure crisp contact, ball started dead on line and feel left or right depending on my hand path.



    I believe I now understand that the arms don't move around the body. I've always thought that was what they did. I need more time with this feeling, but wow, completely seems to have simplified what I've struggled with for years.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    getitdaily wrote:


    Holy crap! I read a lot of this thread many weeks ago and couldn't grasp the concept. I'm a low single digit handicap and have always struggled with an inside, under the plane takeaway. I never lacked for turn in the backswing. But my shoulders always rotated flat. In the early 2000s I worked with a very good instructor who helped me with a straight back takeaway for about 2 feet and then work the club up with right elbow bend, all combined with limited hip rotation early. This worked really well but if my tempo was off I would set the club up late and get too much around. When i was able to hit balls 5 days a week i had much more consistent tempo.



    To combat this, I moved to a fade last year to get steeper on the way back. Things were good until early March when the steeper backswing got too steep and started to get a bit disconnected...think too much lift in relation to turn.



    Well, in my never ending endeavor to find out how my right elbow controlled my success, I stumbled on 2 things - Omar uresti's swing trigger and a video explaining how the arms simply move up and down (like chopping wood) as the body turns. I took that philosophy to the range yesterday...



    Turn and lift...no funky business with the hands, wrists, right elbow hinge, keeping the right shoulder high, etc. Just turn and lift.



    I think something g that works generally works right away or it's not a good fix. Using the feeling of lifting my arms up, literally feeling like they lift up in front of me WHILE I turned, rotated, etc...pure crisp contact, ball started dead on line and feel left or right depending on my hand path.



    I believe I now understand that the arms don't move around the body. I've always thought that was what they did. I need more time with this feeling, but wow, completely seems to have simplified what I've struggled with for years.




    Great to hear about your ballstriking improvement, G. Your report is fairly typical of a golfer who gets the first glimpse of insight into the ASI concept.



    Think of it like this. You have Rotors and Levers in the golf swing. Pivot of hips, core and torso are Rotors, and right elbow, upper arms in the shoulder sockets and both wrists are the Levers.



    Rotors move the Levers in the vortex 3D shape motion, mainly away from and towards the Target in the horizontal dimension, but also a little bit in the up/down dimension and the away from the chest/toward the chest dimension or width.



    Levers move themselves on the backswing with slight upper arms in sockets pushaway motion, right elbow folding to 75-90 degrees and wrists c0cking/hinging. Most of this independent Lever motion is in the up/down dimension and the width dimension, and only a tiny bit in the horizontal dimension.



    Golfers under the spell of the ASI get this backwards and they "see" the pros arms moving themselves mostly in the horizontal dimension around the body. They do not "see" reality which is the V shape arm motion in front of the chest - mainly up/down.



    Blending the up/down with the "around" or circular motion of the Pivot is the key to understanding the ASI application.
  • getitdailygetitdaily Members Posts: 2,440 ✭✭

    getitdaily wrote:


    Holy crap! I read a lot of this thread many weeks ago and couldn't grasp the concept. I'm a low single digit handicap and have always struggled with an inside, under the plane takeaway. I never lacked for turn in the backswing. But my shoulders always rotated flat. In the early 2000s I worked with a very good instructor who helped me with a straight back takeaway for about 2 feet and then work the club up with right elbow bend, all combined with limited hip rotation early. This worked really well but if my tempo was off I would set the club up late and get too much around. When i was able to hit balls 5 days a week i had much more consistent tempo.



    To combat this, I moved to a fade last year to get steeper on the way back. Things were good until early March when the steeper backswing got too steep and started to get a bit disconnected...think too much lift in relation to turn.



    Well, in my never ending endeavor to find out how my right elbow controlled my success, I stumbled on 2 things - Omar uresti's swing trigger and a video explaining how the arms simply move up and down (like chopping wood) as the body turns. I took that philosophy to the range yesterday...



    Turn and lift...no funky business with the hands, wrists, right elbow hinge, keeping the right shoulder high, etc. Just turn and lift.



    I think something g that works generally works right away or it's not a good fix. Using the feeling of lifting my arms up, literally feeling like they lift up in front of me WHILE I turned, rotated, etc...pure crisp contact, ball started dead on line and feel left or right depending on my hand path.



    I believe I now understand that the arms don't move around the body. I've always thought that was what they did. I need more time with this feeling, but wow, completely seems to have simplified what I've struggled with for years.




    Great to hear about your ballstriking improvement, G. Your report is fairly typical of a golfer who gets the first glimpse of insight into the ASI concept.



    Think of it like this. You have Rotors and Levers in the golf swing. Pivot of hips, core and torso are Rotors, and right elbow, upper arms in the shoulder sockets and both wrists are the Levers.



    Rotors move the Levers in the vortex 3D shape motion, mainly away from and towards the Target in the horizontal dimension, but also a little bit in the up/down dimension and the away from the chest/toward the chest dimension or width.



    Levers move themselves on the backswing with slight upper arms in sockets pushaway motion, right elbow folding to 75-90 degrees and wrists c0cking/hinging. Most of this independent Lever motion is in the up/down dimension and the width dimension, and only a tiny bit in the horizontal dimension.



    Golfers under the spell of the ASI get this backwards and they "see" the pros arms moving themselves mostly in the horizontal dimension around the body. They do not "see" reality which is the V shape arm motion in front of the chest - mainly up/down.



    Blending the up/down with the "around" or circular motion of the Pivot is the key to understanding the ASI application.




    It's like a light bulb came on. No more worrying about arm, wrist, elbow sequencing. Just turn and lift and the right elbow sets itself.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    getitdaily wrote:


    getitdaily wrote:


    Holy crap! I read a lot of this thread many weeks ago and couldn't grasp the concept. I'm a low single digit handicap and have always struggled with an inside, under the plane takeaway. I never lacked for turn in the backswing. But my shoulders always rotated flat. In the early 2000s I worked with a very good instructor who helped me with a straight back takeaway for about 2 feet and then work the club up with right elbow bend, all combined with limited hip rotation early. This worked really well but if my tempo was off I would set the club up late and get too much around. When i was able to hit balls 5 days a week i had much more consistent tempo.



    To combat this, I moved to a fade last year to get steeper on the way back. Things were good until early March when the steeper backswing got too steep and started to get a bit disconnected...think too much lift in relation to turn.



    Well, in my never ending endeavor to find out how my right elbow controlled my success, I stumbled on 2 things - Omar uresti's swing trigger and a video explaining how the arms simply move up and down (like chopping wood) as the body turns. I took that philosophy to the range yesterday...



    Turn and lift...no funky business with the hands, wrists, right elbow hinge, keeping the right shoulder high, etc. Just turn and lift.



    I think something g that works generally works right away or it's not a good fix. Using the feeling of lifting my arms up, literally feeling like they lift up in front of me WHILE I turned, rotated, etc...pure crisp contact, ball started dead on line and feel left or right depending on my hand path.



    I believe I now understand that the arms don't move around the body. I've always thought that was what they did. I need more time with this feeling, but wow, completely seems to have simplified what I've struggled with for years.




    Great to hear about your ballstriking improvement, G. Your report is fairly typical of a golfer who gets the first glimpse of insight into the ASI concept.



    Think of it like this. You have Rotors and Levers in the golf swing. Pivot of hips, core and torso are Rotors, and right elbow, upper arms in the shoulder sockets and both wrists are the Levers.



    Rotors move the Levers in the vortex 3D shape motion, mainly away from and towards the Target in the horizontal dimension, but also a little bit in the up/down dimension and the away from the chest/toward the chest dimension or width.



    Levers move themselves on the backswing with slight upper arms in sockets pushaway motion, right elbow folding to 75-90 degrees and wrists c0cking/hinging. Most of this independent Lever motion is in the up/down dimension and the width dimension, and only a tiny bit in the horizontal dimension.



    Golfers under the spell of the ASI get this backwards and they "see" the pros arms moving themselves mostly in the horizontal dimension around the body. They do not "see" reality which is the V shape arm motion in front of the chest - mainly up/down.



    Blending the up/down with the "around" or circular motion of the Pivot is the key to understanding the ASI application.




    It's like a light bulb came on. No more worrying about arm, wrist, elbow sequencing. Just turn and lift and the right elbow sets itself.




    Great! To make that up motion even more repeatable and consistent, do not use upper arm muscles to lift the arms. Right elbow bend will lift them automatically. And there is an automatic switch for that right elbow bending too - sideways pressure on arms for Triangle along with stretch/extension arm pressure of Triangle will cause that elbow to fold WITHOUT USING THE BICEPS as you push away 4-8" on the 45 degree angle.



    So - assuming your grip is correct and your Setup and Aim - a lot of the backswing Lever mechanics is greatly simplified by mastering the arm pushaway with good Triangle pressures. That little bit of independent muscle powered arm motion is the ONLY muscle powered arm motion that you need in a good golf swing.



    Wrists do require you to use wrist muscles to set the two wrists angles, and once learned, those muscles fire to set the wrists same time as upper arm pushaway.
  • getitdailygetitdaily Members Posts: 2,440 ✭✭
    edited Jun 24, 2018 #4216
    In the past I have done a preset drill where I take the club back with my arms and hands. Now I take the club up, in front of me, to about waist high then bring the club down and do that same motion but I start rotating as my very first move. It does feel like my arms move away at an angle. I don't consciously use any muscles, I just kind of pull up on the handle with the hands and wrists while letting my right elbow just do what it naturally wants to do. It feels a bit awkward but on video it's glorious. The shaft works up the inside of my right forearm. At the top, my hands are pretty close to centered over my right shoulder. If this lightbulb moment allows me to finally embrace the turn I generate then I'll be in heaven. I've never lacked for turn or width. But they always worked against me since my arms always tried to get inside.



    Here are a few snapshots...this is turn and lift for me.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    getitdaily wrote:


    In the past I have done a preset drill where I take the club back with my arms and hands. Now I take the club up, in front of me, to about waist high then bring the club down and do that same motion but I start rotating as my very first move. It does feel like my arms move away at an angle. I don't consciously use any muscles, I just kind of pull up on the handle with the hands and wrists while letting my right elbow just do what it naturally wants to do. It feels a bit awkward but on video it's glorious. The shaft works up the inside of my right forearm. At the top, my hands are pretty close to centered over my right shoulder. If this lightbulb moment allows me to finally embrace the turn I generate then I'll be in heaven. I've never lacked for turn or width. But they always worked against me since my arms always tried to get inside.



    Here are a few snapshots...this is turn and lift for me.




    That looks fine as far a shaft angle, might be a tad to0 steep in second pic. But takeaway is perfect position.



    Certainly need to **** wrists both up and backwards to flatten left wrist.



    Checkpoint on Triangle pressures is at the top if you take left hand off grip quickly, right elbow should straighten.
  • getitdailygetitdaily Members Posts: 2,440 ✭✭

    getitdaily wrote:


    In the past I have done a preset drill where I take the club back with my arms and hands. Now I take the club up, in front of me, to about waist high then bring the club down and do that same motion but I start rotating as my very first move. It does feel like my arms move away at an angle. I don't consciously use any muscles, I just kind of pull up on the handle with the hands and wrists while letting my right elbow just do what it naturally wants to do. It feels a bit awkward but on video it's glorious. The shaft works up the inside of my right forearm. At the top, my hands are pretty close to centered over my right shoulder. If this lightbulb moment allows me to finally embrace the turn I generate then I'll be in heaven. I've never lacked for turn or width. But they always worked against me since my arms always tried to get inside.



    Here are a few snapshots...this is turn and lift for me.




    That looks fine as far a shaft angle, might be a tad to0 steep in second pic. But takeaway is perfect position.



    Certainly need to **** wrists both up and backwards to flatten left wrist.



    Checkpoint on Triangle pressures is at the top if you take left hand off grip quickly, right elbow should straighten.




    Yeah yesterday was the first I gave this a go and I was experimenting with where my hand path goes. I have been taking the club outside the address shaft plane to hit a fade for the last year. I believe I need to get my hand path just a bit more down the line or slightly inside the first 2 feet. I get shallower going back but that was obviously a position I didn't want to be in before. A few more range sessions and I should have it dialed in.



    Really appreciate you taking the time to reply. I'll keep you updated on progress.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    getitdaily wrote:


    getitdaily wrote:


    In the past I have done a preset drill where I take the club back with my arms and hands. Now I take the club up, in front of me, to about waist high then bring the club down and do that same motion but I start rotating as my very first move. It does feel like my arms move away at an angle. I don't consciously use any muscles, I just kind of pull up on the handle with the hands and wrists while letting my right elbow just do what it naturally wants to do. It feels a bit awkward but on video it's glorious. The shaft works up the inside of my right forearm. At the top, my hands are pretty close to centered over my right shoulder. If this lightbulb moment allows me to finally embrace the turn I generate then I'll be in heaven. I've never lacked for turn or width. But they always worked against me since my arms always tried to get inside.



    Here are a few snapshots...this is turn and lift for me.




    That looks fine as far a shaft angle, might be a tad to0 steep in second pic. But takeaway is perfect position.



    Certainly need to **** wrists both up and backwards to flatten left wrist.



    Checkpoint on Triangle pressures is at the top if you take left hand off grip quickly, right elbow should straighten.




    Yeah yesterday was the first I gave this a go and I was experimenting with where my hand path goes. I have been taking the club outside the address shaft plane to hit a fade for the last year. I believe I need to get my hand path just a bit more down the line or slightly inside the first 2 feet. I get shallower going back but that was obviously a position I didn't want to be in before. A few more range sessions and I should have it dialed in.



    Really appreciate you taking the time to reply. I'll keep you updated on progress.




    Most folks new to asi concept go from way inside the plane with independent arm motion to outside the plane. They think this is a swing "method" that has to do with an outside plane takeaway.....which is not at all what I teach.



    When you blend pivot with arm pushaway and wrist action, shaft tracks back on plane perfectly. Not outside at all.



    Hand Path in the swing I teach is either straight back along the toe line during takeaway and then it arcs to the inside for second half of backswing, or a hand path during takeaway that arcs back very slightly to the inside by end of takeaway.



    Clubhead moves in an arc immediately during takeaway, ie an inside arc.
  • getitdailygetitdaily Members Posts: 2,440 ✭✭

    getitdaily wrote:


    getitdaily wrote:


    In the past I have done a preset drill where I take the club back with my arms and hands. Now I take the club up, in front of me, to about waist high then bring the club down and do that same motion but I start rotating as my very first move. It does feel like my arms move away at an angle. I don't consciously use any muscles, I just kind of pull up on the handle with the hands and wrists while letting my right elbow just do what it naturally wants to do. It feels a bit awkward but on video it's glorious. The shaft works up the inside of my right forearm. At the top, my hands are pretty close to centered over my right shoulder. If this lightbulb moment allows me to finally embrace the turn I generate then I'll be in heaven. I've never lacked for turn or width. But they always worked against me since my arms always tried to get inside.



    Here are a few snapshots...this is turn and lift for me.




    That looks fine as far a shaft angle, might be a tad to0 steep in second pic. But takeaway is perfect position.



    Certainly need to **** wrists both up and backwards to flatten left wrist.



    Checkpoint on Triangle pressures is at the top if you take left hand off grip quickly, right elbow should straighten.




    Yeah yesterday was the first I gave this a go and I was experimenting with where my hand path goes. I have been taking the club outside the address shaft plane to hit a fade for the last year. I believe I need to get my hand path just a bit more down the line or slightly inside the first 2 feet. I get shallower going back but that was obviously a position I didn't want to be in before. A few more range sessions and I should have it dialed in.



    Really appreciate you taking the time to reply. I'll keep you updated on progress.




    Most folks new to asi concept go from way inside the plane with independent arm motion to outside the plane. They think this is a swing "method" that has to do with an outside plane takeaway.....which is not at all what I teach.



    When you blend pivot with arm pushaway and wrist action, shaft tracks back on plane perfectly. Not outside at all.



    Hand Path in the swing I teach is either straight back along the toe line during takeaway and then it arcs to the inside for second half of backswing, or a hand path during takeaway that arcs back very slightly to the inside by end of takeaway.



    Clubhead moves in an arc immediately during takeaway, ie an inside arc.




    Yeah, I could tell that I was too steep when I didn't allow the turn to pull my hands in while my arms went up. That's what I have to play with. Should be easy to get to. Hands were inside for 27 years, only outside for the last year.
  • getitdailygetitdaily Members Posts: 2,440 ✭✭
    Range feedback today. For me, I have to feel like my backswing initiates with the lift more than the turn. Even though i felt like i was lifting enough, turn was dominating and the club was working under. When i started with the lift then i get clean crisp contact and straighter flight.



    I have to rotate much faster/harder in the downswing than before. If I don't then this new backswing feel/move gets me really trapping the ball in a bad way. When I rotate hard through then I get my beautiful baby fade.
  • NikeGolferTXNikeGolferTX Members Posts: 327 ✭✭
    Jim,



    So I was watching one of your videos on youtube about getting early right bend.

    The issue I have is a straight right arm at impact probably from turning the shoulders too much.

    But overall I try to refrain from using the arms at all. I love it.



    I played around with getting right bend early while maintaining pelvic tilt and now my left hip is forcing itself out of the way and tush line is maintained.

    All good stuff.



    The right arm seems to be going external all on it's own.



    Are these normal results for getting early right bend?



    It almost feels like I'm leaving my torso behind without letting my lower body slide. Super weird feeling.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭


    Jim,



    So I was watching one of your videos on youtube about getting early right bend.

    The issue I have is a straight right arm at impact probably from turning the shoulders too much.

    But overall I try to refrain from using the arms at all. I love it.



    I played around with getting right bend early while maintaining pelvic tilt and now my left hip is forcing itself out of the way and tush line is maintained.

    All good stuff.



    The right arm seems to be going external all on it's own.



    Are these normal results for getting early right bend?



    It almost feels like I'm leaving my torso behind without letting my lower body slide. Super weird feeling.




    Yes to your questions. Tilt Switch and continued right side bend do tend to create a good Transition move with some natural shaft flattening.
  • WILDTHINGWILDTHING Banned Posts: 621 ✭✭
    edited Jul 6, 2018 #4224
    Jim -Unsure if this question has already been answered in this massive poster thread , but in your opinion , does the rear wrist dorsi-flex as in Martin Hall's demonstration (see images below) or does it just radial deviate or is it a bit of both? Just wondering if the way people perceive wrist movement in the golf swing is also a type of illusion.



    WristHinges.jpg
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    WILDTHING wrote:


    Jim -Unsure if this question has already been answered in this massive poster thread , but in your opinion , does the rear wrist dorsi-flex as in Martin Hall's demonstration (see images below) or does it just radial deviate or is it a bit of both? Just wondering if the way people perceive wrist movement in the golf swing is also a type of illusion.



    WristHinges.jpg




    Yes this issue has already been discussed here. Called the Wrist Illusion.



    Both wrists **** upwards, right wrist also hinges backwards towards the forearm.



    It is a blend of both actions simultaneously in the swing model that I teach.
  • WILDTHINGWILDTHING Banned Posts: 621 ✭✭

    WILDTHING wrote:


    Jim -Unsure if this question has already been answered in this massive poster thread , but in your opinion , does the rear wrist dorsi-flex as in Martin Hall's demonstration (see images below) or does it just radial deviate or is it a bit of both? Just wondering if the way people perceive wrist movement in the golf swing is also a type of illusion.



    WristHinges.jpg




    Yes this issue has already been discussed here. Called the Wrist Illusion.



    Both wrists **** upwards, right wrist also hinges backwards towards the forearm.



    It is a blend of both actions simultaneously in the swing model that I teach.




    Many thanks Jim
  • Tanner25Tanner25 Members Posts: 6,219 ✭✭
    Does anyone use the ASI just for the backswing? That seems easiest to master. If so, what do you do on the downswing? Hip bump or just go!
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    Tanner25 wrote:


    Does anyone use the ASI just for the backswing? That seems easiest to master. If so, what do you do on the downswing? Hip bump or just go!




    Tanner - its not that simple. ASI is not a technique or method. It is a description about a powerful optical illusion that feeds the minds of golfers into a belief that the arms should swing around the body, both back and forward swings.



    And you do not "do this" kind of information.



    The implications of the ASI for the forward swing is mainly this - in the model swing, you do not move the arms with the arm muscles. Pivot momentum moves the arms down, out and forward - with a little assist from gravity.
  • Tanner25Tanner25 Members Posts: 6,219 ✭✭
    edited Jul 7, 2018 #4229

    Tanner25 wrote:


    Does anyone use the ASI just for the backswing? That seems easiest to master. If so, what do you do on the downswing? Hip bump or just go!




    Tanner - its not that simple. ASI is not a technique or method. It is a description about a powerful optical illusion that feeds the minds of golfers into a belief that the arms should swing around the body, both back and forward swings.



    And you do not "do this" kind of information.



    The implications of the ASI for the forward swing is mainly this - in the model swing, you do not move the arms with the arm muscles. Pivot momentum moves the arms down, out and forward - with a little assist from gravity.




    Got it Jim. Thank you. I would love to think about the forward swing in that matter (pivot [background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]momentum[/background]) and take away the idea of swinging with the hands/arms with the intent of hitting the ball.
  • GoStarsGoStars Members Posts: 447 ✭✭
    Jim, I own several of the excellent videos and have been working on the swing model for some time.



    A problem I’m experiencing is I’m not pivoting in such a way that my wrist angles unload. I don’t think I’m holding on. I’m definitely trying to tilt switch but .. for lack of a better word my turn feels too level and I don’t get the club down to the ground/ball well enough.



    I believe it’s possible that I’m unwinding in such a way that only my tilt switch is lowering the club. Does that make sense? That my turn going back is part of what brings the club up, but it’s not reciprocated on the way down?



    I hope my explanation is clear enough.
  • Jim WaldronJim Waldron Balance Point Golf Schools Sponsors Posts: 3,214 ✭✭
    GoStars wrote:


    Jim, I own several of the excellent videos and have been working on the swing model for some time.



    A problem I’m experiencing is I’m not pivoting in such a way that my wrist angles unload. I don’t think I’m holding on. I’m definitely trying to tilt switch but .. for lack of a better word my turn feels too level and I don’t get the club down to the ground/ball well enough.



    I believe it’s possible that I’m unwinding in such a way that only my tilt switch is lowering the club. Does that make sense? That my turn going back is part of what brings the club up, but it’s not reciprocated on the way down?



    I hope my explanation is clear enough.




    Yes - that is certainly possible, although easy to view your question in several different ways.



    OTT by definition is too much around not enough down. You need both Tilt to the right and rotation to lower the hands/arms.



    More likely is that you are simply not proficient yet at doing the Tilt Switch and continued right tilting for almost the whole rest of the swing.



    Pivot momentum is more than enough force to open the wrist angles. You are either pivoting really slowly or holding on way too tight or both.



    Only way to know for sure is to do a remote webcam lesson with me which includes analysis of your golf swing video.

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