PGA of America moving to Frisco (Dallas)

[Bob Cat]

@Soloman1

 

I do agree with your assessment but can you expound on "...strong-arming golf courses to hire members only"?

[Openwater22]

Hum...ironically we bought a condo on the 10th fairway of the PSL Ryder course in July. I can second that when we joined the club they told us the learning center was to be moved to the now 10th fairway and there’s a new tee being prepared right by our balcony for the par 3. I can also second the learning center land is worth way more as lots for houses. Who’d want to live literally right by I-95 is beyond me but the lots will sell.

 

We love it there by the way. Play\practice, ride bikes, swim, Pickle Ball, restaurants within 10 minutes, everyone is very nice. Start missing it on the drive back to the airport. Oh...th wife just tells me when got an email on the move last weekend, “you moron”. I’ll try to find it and see if there’s anything to add.

The good news is you don’t own a condo in the first building closest to the current tee boxes. Those people will definitely be harmed by the move. I have not seen the exact plans, but I would suspect people going to the Dye course will be routed on the cart path in front of your condo along with people now teeing off from that location.

Route to the Dye course will not utilize the existing Ryder #10 cart path or any part of a rerouted cart path to access new tee boxes. Plans have not been finalized, but creating a dedicated cart lane within the access road the the maintenance bldgs is one option being considered.

The condo units closest to the existing tee box will see a considerable increase in people traffic. The current cart path to the north range and Dye course, including the fencing and vegetation will be removed to allow for additional tee line, short game area.

[mgholda]

Hum...ironically we bought a condo on the 10th fairway of the PSL Ryder course in July. I can second that when we joined the club they told us the learning center was to be moved to the now 10th fairway and there’s a new tee being prepared right by our balcony for the par 3. I can also second the learning center land is worth way more as lots for houses. Who’d want to live literally right by I-95 is beyond me but the lots will sell.

 

We love it there by the way. Play\practice, ride bikes, swim, Pickle Ball, restaurants within 10 minutes, everyone is very nice. Start missing it on the drive back to the airport. Oh...th wife just tells me when got an email on the move last weekend, “you moron”. I’ll try to find it and see if there’s anything to add.

The good news is you don’t own a condo in the first building closest to the current tee boxes. Those people will definitely be harmed by the move. I have not seen the exact plans, but I would suspect people going to the Dye course will be routed on the cart path in front of your condo along with people now teeing off from that location.

Route to the Dye course will not utilize the existing Ryder #10 cart path or any part of a rerouted cart path to access new tee boxes. Plans have not been finalized, but creating a dedicated cart lane within the access road the the maintenance bldgs is one option being considered.

The condo units closest to the existing tee box will see a considerable increase in people traffic. The current cart path to the north range and Dye course, including the fencing and vegetation will be removed to allow for additional tee line, short game area.

Creating a dedicated cart lane and using the maintenance road would make more sense. I forgot about that road, but that would also allow access to the north end of the range.

[MountainGoat]

@Soloman1

 

I do agree with your assessment but can you expound on "...strong-arming golf courses to hire members only"?

 

I agree...that's an interesting question. It's becoming less clear to my why a golf course needs a PGA professional any more than a bowling alley needs a PBA professional. At the city-owned course near me, the head pro is prohibited from giving lessons during work hours. At my course, they don't sell clubs any more, and the repairs are given to one of the members who does them as a side business. The clubhouse sells clothing and takes greens fees. Why do you need a PGA professional for that?

[CheckJV]

@Soloman1

 

I do agree with your assessment but can you expound on "...strong-arming golf courses to hire members only"?

 

I agree...that's an interesting question. It's becoming less clear to my why a golf course needs a PGA professional any more than a bowling alley needs a PBA professional. At the city-owned course near me, the head pro is prohibited from giving lessons during work hours. At my course, they don't sell clubs any more, and the repairs are given to one of the members who does them as a side business. The clubhouse sells clothing and takes greens fees. Why do you need a PGA professional for that?

 

Anyone can Cut hair or Prepare tax returns but I prefer someone trained to do that work. Better end product. Same for a PGA Professional running a golf club. My personal preference.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob Cat]

I'm just curious as to what leverage the PGAoA has to "strong-arm" a club? Not trying to call you out, Soloman1 - I'm just curious.

[MountainGoat]

I'm just curious as to what leverage the PGAoA has to "strong-arm" a club? Not trying to call you out, Soloman1 - I'm just curious.

 

CheckJV's comments (above) notwithstanding, that was my question, too. I'm imaging that back in the day, equipment manufacturers might not put product into a facility that wasn't PGA run, but that clearly isn't the case anymore. Same with clothing. You can buy all that stuff everywhere. Repairs are outsourced. What's the PGA's real leverage?

[BIG STU]

It’s a union. That’s all. The old apprentice system was set up to feed members with wide-eyed, cheap labor.

 

But in the old days (40+ years ago) the average earnings of a golf pro was just below lawyers in the US. The pros owned the shop, got a piece of carts, pull carts, range balls, clothes, plus repairs and club sales/repair.

 

All name brand golf clubs were green grass only, so only pros could sell golf clubs, except for department store brands.

 

Golf course management companies (e.g. America Golf) took away the shops and pros income was slashed.

Club companies started selling to off course shops.

The Internet changed everything.

People stopped playing golf.

Courses started closing.

 

The apprentice system is still in place, but hasn’t kept pace with the change in society.

 

It’s still just a union, strong-arming golf courses to hire members only.

 

Are there good, professional members? Of course. Are there not-so-good members? Of course, just like any job.

 

It’s still just a highly politicized, old-fashioned union and not some altruistic organization. That’s not meant as a negative comment, the PGA is what it is, a union.

I can remember when they opened up the first "big box" golf store in our area selling what had been previously described as "green grass" or " Pro line only" equipment. I can remember my old man and several of his friends around the same age and experience stated that it was the end of the golf business as they knew it for the course pro. My old man retired a year later pulled up stakes and moved to Eastern NC and lived out his remaining years hunting in the winter and BSing and playing in small card games.

[BIG STU]

@Soloman1

 

I do agree with your assessment but can you expound on "...strong-arming golf courses to hire members only"?

 

I agree...that's an interesting question. It's becoming less clear to my why a golf course needs a PGA professional any more than a bowling alley needs a PBA professional. At the city-owned course near me, the head pro is prohibited from giving lessons during work hours. At my course, they don't sell clubs any more, and the repairs are given to one of the members who does them as a side business. The clubhouse sells clothing and takes greens fees. Why do you need a PGA professional for that?

It is becoming SOP around here with these large corporate golf groups owning multiple courses not to employ PGAoA members. I talked to one of the top tier managers a while back about that he himself a former PGAoA member. Corporate does not seem to see any advantage to employing them. Now I do know that a lot of the courses employ some of the guys in the PGM program. But now one of the big PGM schools is shutting down here so I wonder what the courses here will do for cheap help in the future. I can see maybe the advantage of an private club keeping a PGAoA pro on staff.

[Roadking2003]

@Soloman1

 

I do agree with your assessment but can you expound on "...strong-arming golf courses to hire members only"?

 

I agree...that's an interesting question. It's becoming less clear to my why a golf course needs a PGA professional any more than a bowling alley needs a PBA professional. At the city-owned course near me, the head pro is prohibited from giving lessons during work hours. At my course, they don't sell clubs any more, and the repairs are given to one of the members who does them as a side business. The clubhouse sells clothing and takes greens fees. Why do you need a PGA professional for that?

 

I doubt that there is a law requiring courses to be run by a PGA Professional. So, they must be CHOOSING to do so. And that's fine with me.

 

I'm sure there are many very good club managers who are not PGA Professionals.

[Roadking2003]

@Soloman1

 

I do agree with your assessment but can you expound on "...strong-arming golf courses to hire members only"?

 

I agree...that's an interesting question. It's becoming less clear to my why a golf course needs a PGA professional any more than a bowling alley needs a PBA professional. At the city-owned course near me, the head pro is prohibited from giving lessons during work hours. At my course, they don't sell clubs any more, and the repairs are given to one of the members who does them as a side business. The clubhouse sells clothing and takes greens fees. Why do you need a PGA professional for that?

 

Anyone can Cut hair or Prepare tax returns but I prefer someone trained to do that work. Better end product. Same for a PGA Professional running a golf club. My personal preference.

 

You can be trained without being a PGA member.

[Matt J]

Seems awfully cold in Dallas for year round golf. Must be saving them a boat load.

[MountainGoat]

 

I doubt that there is a law requiring courses to be run by a PGA Professional. So, they must be CHOOSING to do so. And that's fine with me.

 

 

Of course not. The question is whether there are any market forces or other points of leverage that make it advantageous for a course to be run by a PGA pro. If the PGAoA is basically a union, then it needs to have some kind of leverage over the marketplace in order to provide any benefits for its members. If it has no such leverage, then it's nothing. In the old days, you couldn't get golf product into your clubhouse if it wasn't run by a PGA pro. That's pretty strong leverage, but that leverage no longer exists. You can buy golf products anywhere. All that seems to be left for PGAoA is the allure of becoming a PGA pro. In that respect, they're just selling certifications, which may be valueless.

[Bob Cat]

I wonder how much weight a Class A carries when searching for a college coaching position?

[youraway2]

Seems to me if I was recruiting a professional person to operate and manage my course, I'd seek an individual who has business management and budgeting skills, and one with a strong background in agronomy, turf management. I see tons of mismanagement and waste at many courses. A well experienced PGAoA professional may have these skills after many years, but for me to bring on a person to run my business, they better have a paper and the skills to hit the road running. They better know the difference between pre-emerge and post-emerge, and know how to oversee a fleet of maintenance equipment and how to budget and forecast replacements. So they not only have to run the operation, but have the skills to provide knowledgeable oversight and guidance to maintenance. Yep, cost money and most likely well spent.

[BNGL]

Seems to me if I was recruiting a professional person to operate and manage my course, I'd seek an individual who has business management and budgeting skills, and one with a strong background in agronomy, turf management. I see tons of mismanagement and waste at many courses. A well experienced PGAoA professional may have these skills after many years, but for me to bring on a person to run my business, they better have a paper and the skills to hit the road running. They better know the difference between pre-emerge and post-emerge, and know how to oversee a fleet of maintenance equipment and how to budget and forecast replacements. So they not only have to run the operation, but have the skills to provide knowledgeable oversight and guidance to maintenance. Yep, cost money and most likely well spent.

 

Why would you want that if you were running a course?

[Soloman1]

I think there was a little too much hyperbole in “strong-arming.” I apologize for that. Perhaps things have changes, but local sections would threaten to hold back participation in any programs sponsored by the PGA. They would coerce sites to be “Reognized PGA Facilites,” which they still do. I carries no weight, but they’ve been successful in cultivating the image that the PGA has some high level requirements for membership.

 

They used to require members to have good character and credit, now I have customers who are PGA members, who are deabeats, same deadbeat PGA members of UK, Europe and Asia. The PGA apparently doesn’t care anymore. You can be a thief, but still be a member.

 

The PGA used to require that members could not interview at a facility that wasn’t a “recognized” facility. They would require that all contracts for employment had to be submitted to the local office for approval before the member accepted the job.

 

The education programs within the PGA on management are pretty simplistic. The programs on instruction are archaic and limited also.

 

In other parts of the world, business people with degrees in business run golf courses. Golf pros are there for instruction only. You can become a PGA of America member without any degree at all. I don’t think all employment requires a degree, but taking a few courses in golf shop operations isn’t much background to run a golf course.

 

How can you operate a business if you can’t even read a P&L?

 

I think having a PGA is better than not having one, but it’s my opinion that it’s too much image and not much substance. It’s an incredibly old fashioned group of people who think strutting around with a blue blazer and a patch is enough.

[gvogel]

I wonder how much weight a Class A carries when searching for a college coaching position?

 

Some high school coaches get certified by the United States Golf Teachers Federation, which takes about a week.

 

I assume that some college coaches get by with the same certification.