Check list to decide if LCP is needed

[2bGood]

Hi All,

Has anyone developed a check list to decide if Lift Clean and Place needs implemented?

 

Our course tends to overuse LCP for reasons not I tend to not find appropriate, so I would like to formalize the decision making process a bit more.

[Sawgrass]

I have no formal list, but let me start you off by saying that a local rule like LCP should not be implemented after play has begun, particularly in stroke play, so the wise Committee will implement this LR based on the prediction that it will become necessary later in the day even when conditions do not yet warrant.

[SNIPERBBB]

If the mowers cant get out and its cart path only are the main ones. I dont know when our course will ever get off LCP this year as they cant hardly get the mowers that are working out and it keeps raining. Our rough is worse than what the pro's will be facing at at the PGA and US Open combined.

[2bGood]

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> If the mowers cant get out and its cart path only are the main ones. I dont know when our course will ever get off LCP this year as they cant hardly get the mowers that are working out and it keeps raining. Our rough is worse than what the pro's will be facing at at the PGA and US Open combined.

 

Interesting you say this as the governing bodies specifically suggest preferred lies should not be used in the rough. I can see at time why it should be, but often courses seem to put in place only because the rough is tough to hit out of not for truly legitimate reasons like the mowers can't cut the rough.

[QEight]

> @2bGood said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > If the mowers cant get out and its cart path only are the main ones. I dont know when our course will ever get off LCP this year as they cant hardly get the mowers that are working out and it keeps raining. Our rough is worse than what the pro's will be facing at at the PGA and US Open combined.

>

> Interesting you say this as the governing bodies specifically suggest preferred lies should not be used in the rough. I can see at time why it should be, but often courses seem to put in place only because the rough is tough to hit out of not for truly legitimate reasons like the mowers can't cut the rough.

 

I bet he did not mean LCP in rough, but about the conditions being such that even the rough has grown heavily.

[sui generis]

Here's one Temporary Local Rule that seems to work:

 

**_TLR 1 - Until further notice, play the ball “down” except on those holes where, due to wet conditions, "Cart Path Only" restrictions are mandated.

 

On holes where “Cart Path Only” is in effect, players may play "lift, clean and place within one club-length, not nearer the hole” in those parts of the general area cut to fairway height or less._**

[GoTime]

My club isn't often CPO but of if I hit 14 fairways I'd normally have 14 mud balls to some extent. Ball doesn't usually plug, but goes into the turf about 1.5 inches the will pop back out, and end up 6-8 inches behind the ball mark. I pick up and clean my ball nearly every hole. Not going to be punished for hitting fairways with mud balls, and the resulting handicap if I were to play it down would not be an accurate representation of my skill level. If it's obvious I dont need to clean the ball I wont, but that's unusual.

[Newby]

Are there two different rules being debated here? LCR and LCP (is that CPO?).

 

 

[sui generis]

> @Newby said:

> Are there two different rules being debated here? LCR and LCP (is that CPO?).

>

>

 

I thought you would! LCR isn't well known elsewhere. Bumper sticker Rules say LCP.

[2bGood]

The debate has gone south a bit from what I was looking for. I was talking about a process a committee can you to decide of preferred lies is needed. I live in a region where winter rules get used, but it used far too much.

[HitEmTrue]

> @Newby said:

> Are there two different rules being debated here? LCR and LCP (is that CPO?).

>

 

Cart path only

 

 

[SNIPERBBB]

Model local rules 8e E-2. Can't copy from app annoyingly

[Halebopp]

From the Rules concerning Preferred Lies:

 

When occasional local abnormal conditions might interfere with fair play, the affected parts of the course can be defined as ground under repair. But adverse conditions such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can sometimes damage the course or prevent use of heavy mowing equipment.

 

When such conditions are widespread on the course, the Committee can choose to adopt a Local Rule for "preferred lies" (also known as "winter rules") to allow fair play or help protect the fairway. Such a Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as conditions allow.

[Mr. Bean]

> @2bGood said:

> The debate has gone south a bit from what I was looking for. I was talking about a process a committee can you to decide of preferred lies is needed. I live in a region where winter rules get used, but it used far too much.

 

Used too much? What kind of problems are you encountering? Slow play?

[Mr. Bean]

> @Halebopp said:

> From the Rules concerning Preferred Lies:

>

> When occasional local abnormal conditions might interfere with fair play, the affected parts of the course can be defined as ground under repair. But adverse conditions such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can sometimes damage the course or prevent use of heavy mowing equipment.

>

> When such conditions are widespread on the course, the Committee can choose to adopt a Local Rule for "preferred lies" (also known as "winter rules") to allow fair play or help protect the fairway. **Such a Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as conditions allow.**

 

I guess 2beGood is looking for some guidance on the bolded.

[Deceptively Short]

Very strange that the suggestion from the rules says LCP is to ‘protect the fairway’, as the opposite is true. If LCP is in place then golfers tend to move their ball from a poor or bare part of the fairway and place it where grass growth is good then proceed to damage this ‘good’ bit of fairway. If you want to protect fairways go back to playing the ball ‘down’ as soon as possible.

[Newby]

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> Very strange that the suggestion from the rules says LCP is to ‘protect the fairway’, as the opposite is true. If LCP is in place then golfers tend to move their ball from a poor or bare part of the fairway and place it where grass growth is good then proceed to damage this ‘good’ bit of fairway. If you want to protect fairways go back to playing the ball ‘down’ as soon as possible.

 

In this case they mean protecting the fairway from machinery damage rather than players but your point is well made. Which is why fairway mats are becoming more prevalent in the UK.

[Mr. Bean]

> @Newby said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > Very strange that the suggestion from the rules says LCP is to ‘protect the fairway’, as the opposite is true. If LCP is in place then golfers tend to move their ball from a poor or bare part of the fairway and place it where grass growth is good then proceed to damage this ‘good’ bit of fairway. If you want to protect fairways go back to playing the ball ‘down’ as soon as possible.

>

> In this case they mean protecting the fairway from machinery damage rather than players but your point is well made. Which is why fairway mats are becoming more prevalent in the UK.

 

It is not quite clear to me how a LCP could protect the fairways from machinery damage. Can you shed some light there?

[Newby]

Not really, other than it was badly worded and thought out.

[farmer]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > Very strange that the suggestion from the rules says LCP is to ‘protect the fairway’, as the opposite is true. If LCP is in place then golfers tend to move their ball from a poor or bare part of the fairway and place it where grass growth is good then proceed to damage this ‘good’ bit of fairway. If you want to protect fairways go back to playing the ball ‘down’ as soon as possible.

> >

> > In this case they mean protecting the fairway from machinery damage rather than players but your point is well made. Which is why fairway mats are becoming more prevalent in the UK.

>

> It is not quite clear to me how a LCP could protect the fairways from machinery damage. Can you shed some light there?

 

If it's so wet that machinery would leave tracks, or bog into really wet areas. Courses would avoid putting out the mowers, LCP would allow for relatively normal play.

[Newby]

That's what I got wrong. The machinery doesn't protect the course but LCP gives relief from the damage. However, LCP may well cause damage to the spot on which the ball is placed (ie divot holes which are more likely on wet fairways than hard baked dry).

[Halebopp]

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> Very strange that the suggestion from the rules says LCP is to ‘protect the fairway’, as the opposite is true. If LCP is in place then golfers tend to move their ball from a poor or bare part of the fairway and place it where grass growth is good then proceed to damage this ‘good’ bit of fairway. If you want to protect fairways go back to playing the ball ‘down’ as soon as possible.

 

I've understood taking divots from bald patches is really bad for the grass and the damaged area will really struggle to recover whereas an already healthy patch will recover quite quickly.

 

Bean, sure but in case 2bgood hasn't seen any guidance at all, even that bit might be useful. The "How to conduct a competition" manual by the USGA says LCP could be used when "fairway is unsatisfactory".

[Deceptively Short]

I certainly know that our Head Greenkeeper would much prefer that sand/soil/seed divot mix would be better added to a bare patch that has been hacked by a club than hoping that a pristine bit of turf will regrow when (hopefully) replaced after being torn out by a golf shot.

[SNIPERBBB]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > Very strange that the suggestion from the rules says LCP is to ‘protect the fairway’, as the opposite is true. If LCP is in place then golfers tend to move their ball from a poor or bare part of the fairway and place it where grass growth is good then proceed to damage this ‘good’ bit of fairway. If you want to protect fairways go back to playing the ball ‘down’ as soon as possible.

>

> I've understood taking divots from bald patches is really bad for the grass and the damaged area will really struggle to recover whereas an already healthy patch will recover quite quickly.

>

> Bean, sure but in case 2bgood hasn't seen any guidance at all, even that bit might be useful. The "How to conduct a competition" manual by the USGA says LCP could be used when "fairway is unsatisfactory".

 

That's dependent on the grass type is.

 

If you're having mudballs in the fairway on most or every hole, time for LCR/P. Random mudballs, that's golf.

[Malvern]

OP, guess you are looking for some type of checklist, not sure that is doable. I would identify a number (2-3) of low lying areas of the course where a LCP/LCR rule would likely need to be in place in adverse conditions. If those areas are then deemed suitable for play, no rule in place. At least the membership would be aware of the determination rather than just a "finger in the air" approach.

Reading between the lines, it appears you are tiring of "ball in hand". We use a mud ball rule, LCR through the general area, whilst its open to some abuse, less so than others.

 

[2bGood]

Interesting chat so far. As some have guessed I tend to think 'preferred lies' stays in place way too long after the end of winter at our course. It stays in place not due to weather, or course damage or 'unfair' playing conditions, but rather because in spring the grass tends to be so healthy that the rough is very juicy and lush, and even when cut short is a challenge for players the lack decent power to hit out of. We literally play preferred lies because our course is too healthy. Bonkers.

 

Anyhow I was hoping to develop a check list to determine if preferred lies is needed. Something like:

-Are mowers unable to access all parts of course?

-Are there substantial areas of fairway that are damaged?

- Is snow or ice still on the course?

- Are fairways sufficiently water logged to regularly cause balls to accumulate mud?

-others?

 

And if the answer is not to all the above (an other I have missed) then it is clear preferred lies should not be in place.

[Mr. Bean]

> @2bGood said:

> Interesting chat so far. As some have guessed I tend to think 'preferred lies' stays in place way too long after the end of winter at our course. It stays in place not due to weather, or course damage or 'unfair' playing conditions, but rather because in spring the grass tends to be so healthy that the rough is very juicy and lush, and even when cut short is a challenge for players the lack decent power to hit out of. We literally play preferred lies because our course is too healthy. Bonkers.

>

> Anyhow I was hoping to develop a check list to determine if preferred lies is needed. Something like:

> -Are mowers unable to access all parts of course?

> -Are there substantial areas of fairway that are damaged?

> - Is snow or ice still on the course?

> - Are fairways sufficiently water logged to regularly cause balls to accumulate mud?

> -others?

>

> And if the answer is **not to all the above** (an other I have missed) then it is clear preferred lies should not be in place.

 

'Not to ALL the above' ? Really??

 

IMO LCP is there to reduce the factor of luck.

[rogolf]

> @"Mr. Bean" said:

> > @2bGood said:

> > Interesting chat so far. As some have guessed I tend to think 'preferred lies' stays in place way too long after the end of winter at our course. It stays in place not due to weather, or course damage or 'unfair' playing conditions, but rather because in spring the grass tends to be so healthy that the rough is very juicy and lush, and even when cut short is a challenge for players the lack decent power to hit out of. We literally play preferred lies because our course is too healthy. Bonkers.

> >

> > Anyhow I was hoping to develop a check list to determine if preferred lies is needed. Something like:

> > -Are mowers unable to access all parts of course?

> > -Are there substantial areas of fairway that are damaged?

> > - Is snow or ice still on the course?

> > - Are fairways sufficiently water logged to regularly cause balls to accumulate mud?

> > -others?

> >

> > And if the answer is **not to all the above** (an other I have missed) then it is clear preferred lies should not be in place.

>

> 'Not to ALL the above' ? Really??

>

> IMO LCP is there to reduce the factor of luck.

 

Is your opinion consistent with that of the ruling bodies:

**E-3 Preferred Lies**

**Purpose.** When occasional local abnormal conditions might interfere with fair play, the affected parts of the course can be defined as ground under repair. But adverse conditions such as heavy snows, spring thaws, prolonged rains or extreme heat can sometimes damage the course or prevent use of heavy mowing equipment.

When such conditions are widespread on the course, the Committee can choose to adopt a Local Rule for “preferred lies” (also known as “winter rules”) to allow fair play or help protect the fairway. Such a Local Rule should be withdrawn as soon as conditions allow.

The use of this Local Rule outside the fairway in the general area is not recommended as it may result in a player receiving free relief from areas where a ball might otherwise be unplayable (such as in areas of bushes or trees).

It is not authorised to implement this Local Rule once play has begun for a stroke-play round. Doing so would allow players who have more holes to play the advantage of using it for a longer period of time. The Local Rule could be implemented once a match has begun between the play of two holes as opponents have an equal benefit.

For guidance on when and how this Local Rule may be used in order for scores to be submitted for handicapping purposes (including the size of the relief area and if it may only be used in the fairway), consult the rules or recommendations contained within the Handicap System operating in the local jurisdiction.

[Roadking2003]

> @2bGood said:

> Hi All,

> Has anyone developed a check list to decide if Lift Clean and Place needs implemented?

>

> Our course tends to overuse LCP for reasons not I tend to not find appropriate, so I would like to formalize the decision making process a bit more.

 

Our rule is quite simple; if the course says it's so wet that they implement cart path only, we use LCP. Otherwise, no LCP.

[RickK]

One of my tournament leagues employs this rule. If the round starts with carts off the path, you play the ball down the entire round letting USGA Rules of Golf dictate any relief you may get from casual water or abnormal course conditions. If the round starts and it is CPO, then the entire round is play as LCP, actually it is LCR (Lift Clean and Replace). It is totally a factor of how the round starts. Makes no difference if CPO changes during the round. However round starts, that is how it finishes.