DeNinny's Blade vs CB Experiment and Data

[Startzel]

[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399748589' post='9269367']
Startzel, the response was regarding a logical explanation as to why certain players with a certain miss may find blades relatively forgiving. In answer to your question, the arbitrary assignment of handicap numbers as a correlation between ability to play blades further complicates discussion unnecessarily. The choice should be made based upon types of misses and resultant dispersion. I am not, nor have I ever, recommended that blades are the best fit for everyone, especially not players with a wider dispersion pattern across the clubface.
[/quote]

Sure, but vertical misses are going to be a sign of a very skilled player, correct?As for your assessment that handicaps are arbitrary assignments. Are handicaps not used to the industry standard for judging a player's ability?

[Startzel]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1399709660' post='9267711']
I explained in my thread while they were more forgiving for me. Then the thought police intervened and told me how wrong I was. Imagine how grateful I was to learn that even though I was the one who did the experimenting, who went through the experience, that I was wrong...corrected by people who did not know one thing about me, my game, or my swing. Yes, their approach was very scientific.
[/quote]

Your example of forgiveness was that your mishits went straight and short.That doesn't even make sense. The most common argument for using blades is that it allows you to shape your shots and GI prevent you from putting the spin on the ball to do so.If you're slicing the ball with a GI iron(your example instead of it going long and right out of play) surely you're going to be putting the sidespin on the same shot with a blade, no?

[bladehunter]

In theory they are, but they can hardly be used as a end all be all guide to iron fitting. A handicap designation is made up of so many variables in one persons game and slope of course played etc I cant see how it is much more than a loose guideline to help in the iron fitting process.

[bladehunter]

If your mishit is thin generally it is straight and short. Thin shot with some GI irons with heavier perimeter weighting would result in longer "skulled" shots....thin shot with a MB tends to be straight and "dead" not straight and "hot"


edit ...above is experience of mine, may not be same for everyone

[DeNinny]

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1399765550' post='9270361']
In theory they are, but they can hardly be used as a end all be all guide to iron fitting. A handicap designation is made up of so many variables in one persons game and slope of course played etc I cant see how it is much more than a loose guideline to help in the iron fitting process.
[/quote]

And further I think the handicap system purpose should simply be for creating an equal playing field in a tournament, in theory, but that is all. The fact that it has, through marketing hype, become the rating system for what iron type you should play is simply that: marketing hype.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399765309' post='9270341']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1399709660' post='9267711']
I explained in my thread while they were more forgiving for me. Then the thought police intervened and told me how wrong I was. Imagine how grateful I was to learn that even though I was the one who did the experimenting, who went through the experience, that I was wrong...corrected by people who did not know one thing about me, my game, or my swing. Yes, their approach was very scientific.
[/quote]

Your example of forgiveness was that your mishits went straight and short.That doesn't even make sense. The most common argument for using blades is that it allows you to shape your shots and GI prevent you from putting the spin on the ball to do so.If you're slicing the ball with a GI iron(your example instead of it going long and right out of play) surely you're going to be putting the sidespin on the same shot with a blade, no?
[/quote]

Have you seen the results I get? Well, I have. They. Go. Straighter.

You don't have to like the answer, but there it is.

[Mitchell]

Did not refer to handicaps as arbitrary, rather your choice of a handicap designation as a guideline in making determination as to suitability to play a particular type of club when there are many other factors to consider reflects a very limited view. Players of the same or similar handicap can arrive at that number in many different ways, hence my statement that using handicap as a guideline complicates discussion. I have very carefully and logically explained very specific instances which I was referring to and explained those situations do not apply to those outside a particular demographic. Your refusal to accept that such a demographic exists and assume that all are arguing against your points, reflects an argumentative nature that is not productive to civil discourse and which I choose not to cater towards.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399768418' post='9270585']
Did not refer to handicaps as arbitrary, rather your choice of a handicap designation as a guideline in making determination as to suitability to play a particular type of club when there are many other factors to consider reflects a very limited view. Players of the same or similar handicap can arrive at that number in many different ways, hence my statement that using handicap as a guideline complicates discussion. I have very carefully and logically explained very specific instances which I was referring to and explained those situations do not apply to those outside a particular demographic. Your refusal to accept that such a demographic exists and assume that all are arguing against your points, reflects an argumentative nature that is not productive to civil discourse and which I choose not to cater towards.
[/quote]

Very eloquently written. Bravo. To paraphrase: handicaps are not the absolute (there's that word again) in determination of what iron one should play and, in my own opinion with my limited "experiment" to back this up, what iron is the best for your handicap level to score the lowest.

The manufacturers know this. That is why they only show limited data like Iron Byron's results and then that is extrapolated to the entire golf population pool with all the variables like body type and swing type, and then standardized to a handicap range. And then finally to whether or not it's the best club for you to score with (editorial: are you kidding me?). As an engineer (chemical) it is difficult for me to take the leap in faith on that one coming from iron Byron and maybe a limited pool of actual golfers from a test facility on a perfect lie driving range. Sorry but to ask again: where's the real world data?

[Startzel]

[quote name=%26amp%3B%2339%3BMitchell%26amp%3B%2339%3B timestamp='1399768418' post='9270585']Did not refer to handicaps as arbitrary, rather your choice of a handicap designation as a guideline in making determination as to suitability to play a particular type of club when there are many other factors to consider reflects a very limited view. Players of the same or similar handicap can arrive at that number in many different ways, hence my statement that using handicap as a guideline complicates discussion. I have very carefully and logically explained very specific instances which I was referring to and explained those situations do not apply to those outside a particular demographic. Your refusal to accept that such a demographic exists and assume that all are arguing against your points, reflects an argumentative nature that is not productive to civil discourse and which I choose not to cater towards.
[/quote]Where did I refuse to accept that such a demographic existed? Your untruthful assertions reflection a dishonest nature that is not productive to civil discourse.

I stated a 9-15 handicap is not capable of being in the vertical miss only demographic. Do you believe a 9 handicap is capable of only having vertical misses? I find it hard to believe anyone on here fits within the constraints of your demographic.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399772189' post='9270931']
[quote name=%26amp%3B%2339%3BMitchell%26amp%3B%2339%3B timestamp='1399768418' post='9270585']Did not refer to handicaps as arbitrary, rather your choice of a handicap designation as a guideline in making determination as to suitability to play a particular type of club when there are many other factors to consider reflects a very limited view. Players of the same or similar handicap can arrive at that number in many different ways, hence my statement that using handicap as a guideline complicates discussion. I have very carefully and logically explained very specific instances which I was referring to and explained those situations do not apply to those outside a particular demographic. Your refusal to accept that such a demographic exists and assume that all are arguing against your points, reflects an argumentative nature that is not productive to civil discourse and which I choose not to cater towards.
[/quote]Where did I refuse to accept that such a demographic existed? Your untruthful assertions reflection a dishonest nature that is not productive to civil discourse.

I stated a 9-15 handicap is not capable of being in the vertical miss only demographic. Do you believe a 9 handicap is capable of only having vertical misses? I find it hard to believe anyone on here fits within the constraints of your demographic.
[/quote]

Startzel I don't quite remember the civil discourse being discussed as an absolute on [b]only[/b] having vertical misses as you have asked. I believe your original question was the direction a 9-15 generally misses. Did you not mean this?

I also did not see where Mitchell ever stated only. In the future could you please post and quote his statement so that we can continue this civil discourse more efficiently?

[Startzel]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399772693' post='9270967']
[quote name=%26amp%3B%2339%3BStartzel%26amp%3B%2339%3B timestamp='1399772189' post='9270931']
[quote name=%2526amp%253B%252339%253BMitchell%2526amp%253B%252339%253B timestamp='1399768418' post='9270585']Did not refer to handicaps as arbitrary, rather your choice of a handicap designation as a guideline in making determination as to suitability to play a particular type of club when there are many other factors to consider reflects a very limited view. Players of the same or similar handicap can arrive at that number in many different ways, hence my statement that using handicap as a guideline complicates discussion. I have very carefully and logically explained very specific instances which I was referring to and explained those situations do not apply to those outside a particular demographic. Your refusal to accept that such a demographic exists and assume that all are arguing against your points, reflects an argumentative nature that is not productive to civil discourse and which I choose not to cater towards.
[/quote]Where did I refuse to accept that such a demographic existed? Your untruthful assertions reflection a dishonest nature that is not productive to civil discourse.

I stated a 9-15 handicap is not capable of being in the vertical miss only demographic. Do you believe a 9 handicap is capable of only having vertical misses? I find it hard to believe anyone on here fits within the constraints of your demographic.
[/quote]

Startzel I don't quite remember the civil discourse being discussed as an absolute on [b]only[/b] having vertical misses as you have asked. I believe your original question was the direction a 9-15 generally misses. Did you not mean this?

I also did not see where Mitchell ever stated only. In the future could you please post and quote his statement so that we can continue this civil discourse more efficiently?
[/quote]

Fair enough, I will rephrase. Do you believe a 9-15 handicap is capable of generally missing vertically?

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399773080' post='9270995']
Fair enough, I will rephrase. Do you believe a 9-15 handicap is capable of generally missing vertically?
[/quote]

Yes. I am definitely one of them and, incidentally, didn't I answer this question in a direct response to you, with quotes, earlier today?

[Mitchell]

Never referenced the term only as do not believe that absolutes and assumptions are a proper way to make determination as to suitability of use of particular type of club. Further clarification of consistency of my position regarding this point is readily available by re-reading portion following asterisk in post #104 and last sentence of post #113. Those that miss frequently across a wider portion of the clubface, irrespective of handicap, are obviously not going to be best served by using a club that is not designed to compensate for that miss. If you need further clarification of this position and can do so without personal insults contrary to spirit of the forum, feel free to ask and I will gladly respond in an equally respectful manner.

[DeNinny]

Ok All. I'm going to bow out of my own thread now. I've said literally everything I have to say about the blades vs CB debate and so have nothing left to share in regards to personal knowledge and opinion on the matter. It is what it is and take it or leave it. If my perspective changes in the future I will certainly come back to this thread and update you all.

To the participants I want to thank you all very much for sharing your own opinions and I have learned from conversing with all of you. It's been a fun experiment for me seeing how passionate some of you are on this topic and subliminally pushing you to be more objective in your thinking. I hope it worked.

Hit 'em Straight,
DeNinny

[Startzel]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399773477' post='9271037']
[quote name=%26amp%3B%2339%3BStartzel%26amp%3B%2339%3B timestamp='1399773080' post='9270995']
Fair enough, I will rephrase. Do you believe a 9-15 handicap is capable of generally missing vertically?
[/quote]

Yes. I am definitely one of them and, incidentally, didn't I answer this question in a direct response to you, with quotes, earlier today?
[/quote]

Can you post a picture of your forged clubs so we can see the face wear pattern?

[Startzel]

[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399774924' post='9271195']
If you need further clarification of this position and can do so without personal insults contrary to spirit of the forum,
[/quote]

It would have nice if you had left the insults at the door. I will never understand why posters are so quick to throw out an insult, but then get their feelings hurt whens someone uses sarcasm to mock their insult.

[fairwaysRoverated]

It seems like there's 2 different sides to this thing. Some people seem to be saying that they hit blades better, not that they are more forgiving. Which would lead to it being a mental thing. Others are saying people are saying blades are more forgiving than CB's. I think everyone here can obviously understand that CB, GI and SGI are more forgiving than blades, BUT some people have more confidence with a blade in their hand due to the results when they hit it. A CB, GI, SGI WILL hit the ball higher in the air regardless of where you hit it on the face, further, and to a degree straighter (unless the face isn't square) than a blade.

[bladehunter]

pot meet kettle..... at what point in the handicap do you believe only a vertical miss exists? I do not believe that ONLY a vertical miss exists in any one. At least I have not met that person yet nor have I watched them on TV.

[Startzel]

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1399780025' post='9271695']
pot meet kettle..... at what point in the handicap do you believe only a vertical miss exists? I do not believe that ONLY a vertical miss exists in any one. At least I have not met that person yet nor have I watched them on TV.
[/quote]

I have no idea at what point players even get to vertical misses more than horizontal misses. You and I are roughly the same handicap and when I miss it tends to be hitting one off the toe. I rarely miss vertically. Maybe the pros are good enough to rarely miss on the toe or heel side?

[bladehunter]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399778059' post='9271551']
Ok All. I'm going to bow out of my own thread now. I've said literally everything I have to say about the blades vs CB debate and so have nothing left to share in regards to personal knowledge and opinion on the matter. It is what it is and take it or leave it. If my perspective changes in the future I will certainly come back to this thread and update you all.

To the participants I want to thank you all very much for sharing your own opinions and I have learned from conversing with all of you. It's been a fun experiment for me seeing how passionate some of you are on this topic and subliminally pushing you to be more objective in your thinking. I hope it worked.

Hit 'em Straight,
DeNinny
[/quote]



I wouldn't let Him or her run you out of your own thread.. That is exactly the reaction that is wanted. There is absolutely no reason to throw in the towel and accept someone elses 3rd hand opinion as fact or concede to it because of irritation. I have found that when you meet someone who likes to talk but has nothing to say the best way to combat them is by asking them questions they do not want to answer . It usually makes things go quiet pretty quickly. Which is why I asked the questions I did earlier. You noticed there was no post until well after the direction of the subject was changed, yes?

[MikeG]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399576092' post='9258471']
[quote name='BrickDaFunk' timestamp='1399568229' post='9257543']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399549570' post='9255517']
Where is the data?
[/quote]

Last I checked...this is an Internet forum. Not quite Golf Digest. In your efforts to inject some constructive criticism, you fall wildly short to get the proper attention of us mortal folk due to your tact...you should first get off your narcissistic high horse and then attempt to communicate within the topic of discussion at a "human" level.

Sorry OP, couldn't help myself after what I read in Sean2's thread...nice write up, take care.

Edit: Startzel, should you choose to reply, you can certainly have the last word...you're welcome.
[/quote]
Thanks Brick and I don't see where Startzel is on a high horse here. I've clarified my definition of data in a separate response. I'm not a moderator but as the OP trying to maintain a civil debate, I want to mention I don't see any narcissism in this question. If he doesn't agree with that definition of data that's fine. I've provided full disclosure on my observations and admit this isn't a perfect experiment with perfect data (but I'll bet it's more than most others have experience with!).

What we need is three identical triplets. We give two of them my same setup. the third gets a set of SGIs with the same shafts and everything else. They then play their careers and we take statistics on all their scores with those clubs at all their varying skill levels. Finally then we can make some headway on this debate. Are there any golfwrx triplets out there willing to take this on?
[/quote]
I'm not a triplet, but I have an evil twin, but that's another story for another time.

As an open minded, inquisitive type I'm up for this. I'll alternate my '73 Apex irons with SGIs. I'm an erratic ballstriker, mostly use player CBs, and don't play tournament golf, so my schedule is pretty open. I normally play Sat/Sun at my home course and hit the range once or twice a week.

For you big brains out there, I'll need conditions for the test, specifically sample size and data to record.

And let's keep this easy on my wallet, so if anyone can recommend a set of used SGIs (since all of us handicap players have no business playing anything but SGIs) for under $400 I'd appreciate it. FWIW, the Apex 4s feel light and launch very high for me, so I won't need to find anything exotic to match those shafts in an SGI set.

[Mitchell]

Nor do I believe that a vertical miss ONLY exists in any player and have stated so here ad nauseam. My point was simply that many better players have a propensity to miss more frequently in the vertical dimension and less frequently in the horizontal. This may explain why some players find a certain perception of forgiveness in a blade design. Also clearly stated that those who miss across a wider portion of clubface would be better served by using a club designed to compensate for this type of miss. This has been my only point throughout this thread and my feeling at this point is further participation in discussion on my part on this point would be counterproductive. So let's return topic to subject previously brought up but not explored extensively , except by Isaac-

Startzel or anyone else, care to share any personal experiences with both club types, and why you came to conclusion one or the other suits your game/preferences and any correlation to scoring?

[isaacbm]

Here's a question: How much do you guys believe the cavity back part of a sgi is helping? I feel like it's the sole grind and the extra weight in the bottom of the club. Does anyone remember the Hogan Radial iron? that seems to me to be the perfect "forgiving" club. It had a huge sole but was a "blade" for all intensive purposes.

I just feel that if you're missing the middle by an inch, nothing is going to help. A lot of help can be achieved by bevelling the leading edge though. Also, much easier to get the ball in the air with more weight at the bottom of a club.

I've played every variety of iron made and have 20 sets at home right now. I like to switch back and forth for fun but I've never really seen a difference in score from one set to another. I do see a small difference in "forgiveness", just not score.

Why do we believe that having a more forgiving club will automatically translate to lower scores?

[Mitchell]

Isaacbm- Definitely following your thinking in regards to bounce and sole grind being relevant factors that need consideration, that is one of the reasons that I still play 962b irons, the triple grind sole. Hogan radials are a great example of a "blade-like" profile that plays with a significant amount of forgiveness. If you also look at some well-regarded "player'" cavities, some may be well thought of for sole grind/bounce configuration as much as for forgiveness offered by slight cavity (ex: Maxfli Revolution black dot, Cobra SS forged, Mizuno JPX 825 pro, Callaway X-prototype) . Another factor to consider!

[DeNinny]

To All,
I could not help myself and come back for just one more post due to such an excellent question from Startzel. Since this thread is rather long now and not all of you and new readers may have read everything, and as the OP wanting this debate to continue efficiently, I ask that in continuing to converse with Startzel you first read all of his previous posts and see to that your own questions are sufficiently answered. Throughout this thread he seems to ignore your own questions and yet persist with his own. If you don't want to read back, let me highlight one thing: He has yet to answer the basic question that is core to the spirit of this thread which is can he provide his own real world experience and "data" as I defined it, comparing a MB club and a CB/GI club side by side, with no other variables, that clearly showed the CB/GI club allowed him to score better? Don't you think that is fair? Instead the conversation with him steers toward the forgiveness route which is not the purpose of this thread.

Carry on...

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399778770' post='9271617']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399773477' post='9271037']
[quote name=%26amp%3B%2339%3BStartzel%26amp%3B%2339%3B timestamp='1399773080' post='9270995']
Fair enough, I will rephrase. Do you believe a 9-15 handicap is capable of generally missing vertically?
[/quote]

Yes. I am definitely one of them and, incidentally, didn't I answer this question in a direct response to you, with quotes, earlier today?
[/quote]

Can you post a picture of your forged clubs so we can see the face wear pattern?
[/quote]
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399778770' post='9271617']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399773477' post='9271037']
[quote name=%26amp%3B%2339%3BStartzel%26amp%3B%2339%3B timestamp='1399773080' post='9270995']
Fair enough, I will rephrase. Do you believe a 9-15 handicap is capable of generally missing vertically?
[/quote]

Yes. I am definitely one of them and, incidentally, didn't I answer this question in a direct response to you, with quotes, earlier today?
[/quote]

Can you post a picture of your forged clubs so we can see the face wear pattern?
[/quote]

Thank you again for such an excellent question Startzel! "Par for the course", if you will, no? I'm sure as such a valuable contributor to this thread thus far, you thought it through thoroughly before writing it, didn't you? You knew that in asking it would be in the spirit of understanding what real proof is out there that a CB/GI club allows one to score their lowest, for which, I might remind, you have been asked several times and, let me point out, you have yet to answer, right? You also know that you are the resident expert with all the credentials in the world on what the wear pattern of a vertical miss club looks like and what a horizontal one does, because you have real world data and maybe hundreds of examples of both and people consult with you frequently on the matter, and that you would be able advise me properly one what my own miss really was because I cannot possibly know from my own real world observation (there's that phrase again), correct? No need to answer, just curious.

My answer is no.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399808442' post='9272451']
To All,
I could not help myself and come back for just one more post due to such an excellent question from Startzel. Since this thread is rather long now and not all of you and new readers may have read everything, and as the OP wanting this debate to continue efficiently, I ask that in continuing to converse with Startzel you first read all of his previous posts and see to that your own questions are sufficiently answered. Throughout this thread he seems to ignore your own questions and yet persist with his own. If you don't want to read back, let me highlight one thing: He has yet to answer the basic question that is core to the spirit of this thread which is can he provide his own real world experience and "data" as I defined it, comparing a MB club and a CB/GI club side by side, with no other variables, that clearly showed the CB/GI club allowed him to score better? Don't you think that is fair? Instead the conversation with him steers toward the forgiveness route which is not the purpose of this thread.

Carry on...

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399778770' post='9271617']
[size=6][b]Can you post a picture of your forged clubs so we can see the face wear pattern?[/b][/size]
[/quote]
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399778770' post='9271617']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399773477' post='9271037']
[quote name=%26amp%3B%2339%3BStartzel%26amp%3B%2339%3B timestamp='1399773080' post='9270995']
Fair enough, I will rephrase. Do you believe a 9-15 handicap is capable of generally missing vertically?
[/quote]

Yes. I am definitely one of them and, incidentally, didn't I answer this question in a direct response to you, with quotes, earlier today?
[/quote]

[size=6][b]Can you post a picture of your forged clubs so we can see the face wear pattern?[/b][/size]
[/quote]

Thank you again for such an excellent question Startzel! "Par for the course", if you will, no? I'm sure as such a valuable contributor to this thread thus far, you thought it through thoroughly before writing it, didn't you? You knew that in asking it would be in the spirit of understanding what real proof is out there that a CB/GI club allows one to score their lowest, for which, I might remind, you have been asked several times and, let me point out, you have yet to answer, right? You also know that you are the resident expert with all the credentials in the world on what the wear pattern of a vertical miss club looks like and what a horizontal one does, because you have real world data and maybe hundreds of examples of both and people consult with you frequently on the matter, and that you would be able advise me properly one what my own miss really was because I cannot possibly know from my own real world observation (there's that phrase again), correct? No need to answer, just curious.

[size=6][b]My answer is no.[/b][/size]
[/quote]

[bladehunter]

pics of what?

[DeNinny]

gopherguts welcome back to the thread! I'm so glad you have found it productive enough to come back now after such an eloquently written and productive post as per your original I have gladly reposted below. Isn't it ironic that you would waste even more of your time and use more cyber ink to make a comment about something that was a waste of your own time? Isn't it even more ironic that you have come back several pages later? If that's not ironic, then isn't the fact that you took the trouble to use emoticons even somewhat ironic? Just a little bit?

Please continue posting. I love reading your insights and real world experiences on the subject that blades will not allow you to score the best. It's entertaining at the least.

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399661572' post='9264585']
[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1399656738' post='9264159']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399654559' post='9263981']
[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1399653897' post='9263919']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399652306' post='9263775']
[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1399651285' post='9263669']
I wouldn't have thought the difference between the MP67 and the MP60 was worth more than a shot a round for a single figure handicapper anyway. MP60 aren't exactly G25s
[/quote]

Nor were there any differences (in score) when I was a 16 index.
[/quote]

What I mean to say is there is hardly any difference between the 2 clubs. I'm surprised you are surprised.
[/quote]
Mizuno is clearly marketing the two types for different skill levels.
[/quote]

2 different SKILL levels. Yes, but only very slightly.

The guys that said they were apples to apples is a lot closer to being accurate than your post is to having any value other than to hear yourself "talk".

There's another 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

What a waste of cyber ink,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
[/quote]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and maybe it will save someone else some time reading all of my malarkey, if they trust your opinion, but to clarify, I've stated my reasons for posting this thread in my original and subsequent posts. None of which have anything to do with wanting to hear myself "talk". I have been a member of this excellent forum for years now because there are still contributors that want to constructively share information, and[b] I post with the intent to either share my own personal opinion and experience* or to jest with another member[/b]. That is my only motivation for posting here on any topic. You can believe this or not.

*I thought one of the purposes of this forum was to have some insight on another's playing experiences if they are ever in doubt about something (their swing, club choice, where to golf, etc) and when I was one of those people in my decision to purchase a set of blades when my handicap was clearly not in the recommended range, I sought the opinions of others here. Since that benefitted me tremendously, seeing the very diverse opinions (and not much facts) on the matter, I was hoping my post would help someone else on the fence. I wouldn't care what they purchased in the end. Even in this thread I am not trying to convince anyone to play blades or CBs. I'm simply sharing my information that may be contrary to some else's. It is clearly different than some other's but there are also a few posters here that it is similar to.
[/quote]

[gopherguts]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399778059' post='9271551'] [size=6][b]Ok All. I'm going to bow out of my own thread now.[/b][/size] I've said literally everything I have to say about the blades vs CB debate and so have nothing left to share in regards to personal knowledge and opinion on the matter. [/quote]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399808442' post='9272451'] [size=6][b]To All, I could not help myself[/b][/size] and come back for [size=6][b]just one more post[/b][/size] due to such an excellent question from Startzel. [/quote]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399817144' post='9272923'] gopherguts welcome back to the thread! I'm so glad you have found it productive enough to come back now after such an eloquently written and productive post as per your original I have gladly reposted below. Isn't it ironic that you would waste even more of your time and use more cyber ink to make a comment about something that was a waste of your own time? Isn't it even more ironic that you have come back several pages later? If that's not ironic, then isn't the fact that you took the trouble to use emoticons even somewhat ironic? Just a little bit? Please continue posting. I love reading your insights and real world experiences on the subject that blades will not allow you to score the best. It's entertaining at the least. [/quote]

Well, I think that despite the pros and cons of posters' points of view here in this thread I think we can all agree you offered ZERO data.

And then you ask others for it ?

And when asked for visible proof of what you say which, unlike the "data" you seek IS readily available, the answer is simply "No".

What to think, what to think ?

I've got an idea. You don't back up anything so,,,,,,,,

Why not just stick to your word ?

Then again, you couldn't "prove" your point. So why would anyone expect you to stick to your word ?

[DeNinny]

To All,
Once again, an insightful poster such as gopherguts, who, I might add, has come back twice now to this thread to contribute absolutely nothing toward moving the subject forward. It's a shame the thread keeps steering away from the main topic which is real world experience that justify one's position that a blade or a CB is better for scoring your lowest. Instead people want to know what my miss pattern looks like? How will that help move the topic forward?

I came back to ask your assistance to keep moving the conversation forward towards the original goal of this post and to call out posters such as gopherguts and Swartzel. They seem to be avoiding the purpose of this thread.

Once again I thank those that have shared their real world experience on this matter. I will continue to monitor this thread as I am still enjoying the comments by some.

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1399813119' post='9272683']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399808442' post='9272451']
To All,
I could not help myself and come back for just one more post due to such an excellent question from Startzel. Since this thread is rather long now and not all of you and new readers may have read everything, and as the OP wanting this debate to continue efficiently, I ask that in continuing to converse with Startzel you first read all of his previous posts and see to that your own questions are sufficiently answered. Throughout this thread he seems to ignore your own questions and yet persist with his own. If you don't want to read back, let me highlight one thing: He has yet to answer the basic question that is core to the spirit of this thread which is can he provide his own real world experience and "data" as I defined it, comparing a MB club and a CB/GI club side by side, with no other variables, that clearly showed the CB/GI club allowed him to score better? Don't you think that is fair? Instead the conversation with him steers toward the forgiveness route which is not the purpose of this thread.

Carry on...

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399778770' post='9271617']
Can you post a picture of your forged clubs so we can see the face wear pattern?
[/quote]
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399778770' post='9271617']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399773477' post='9271037']
[quote name=%26amp%3B%2339%3BStartzel%26amp%3B%2339%3B timestamp='1399773080' post='9270995']
Fair enough, I will rephrase. Do you believe a 9-15 handicap is capable of generally missing vertically?
[/quote]

Yes. I am definitely one of them and, incidentally, didn't I answer this question in a direct response to you, with quotes, earlier today?
[/quote]

Can you post a picture of your forged clubs so we can see the face wear pattern?
[/quote]

Thank you again for such an excellent question Startzel! "Par for the course", if you will, no? I'm sure as such a valuable contributor to this thread thus far, you thought it through thoroughly before writing it, didn't you? You knew that in asking it would be in the spirit of understanding what real proof is out there that a CB/GI club allows one to score their lowest, for which, I might remind, you have been asked several times and, let me point out, you have yet to answer, right? You also know that you are the resident expert with all the credentials in the world on what the wear pattern of a vertical miss club looks like and what a horizontal one does, because you have real world data and maybe hundreds of examples of both and people consult with you frequently on the matter, and that you would be able advise me properly one what my own miss really was because I cannot possibly know from my own real world observation (there's that phrase again), correct? No need to answer, just curious.

My answer is no.
[/quote]




[/quote]

You further posts in this thread are worthless without providing your own insight and real world experience as to why you feel so strongly CB/GI clubs are the best for scoring the lowest. My position is clear: There's no absolute answer. See also my previous post regarding your irony. Thank you for sharing your opinion.