DeNinny's Blade vs CB Experiment and Data

[BrickDaFunk]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399576092' post='9258471']
[quote name='BrickDaFunk' timestamp='1399568229' post='9257543']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399549570' post='9255517']
Where is the data?
[/quote]

Last I checked...this is an Internet forum. Not quite Golf Digest. In your efforts to inject some constructive criticism, you fall wildly short to get the proper attention of us mortal folk due to your tact...you should first get off your narcissistic high horse and then attempt to communicate within the topic of discussion at a "human" level.

Sorry OP, couldn't help myself after what I read in Sean2's thread...nice write up, take care.

Edit: Startzel, should you choose to reply, you can certainly have the last word...you're welcome.
[/quote]
Thanks Brick and I don't see where Startzel is on a high horse here. I've clarified my definition of data in a separate response. I'm not a moderator but as the OP trying to maintain a civil debate, I want to mention I don't see any narcissism in this question. If he doesn't agree with that definition of data that's fine. I've provided full disclosure on my observations and admit this isn't a perfect experiment with perfect data (but I'll bet it's more than most others have experience with!).

What we need is three identical triplets. We give two of them my same setup. the third gets a set of SGIs with the same shafts and everything else. They then play their careers and we take statistics on all their scores with those clubs at all their varying skill levels. Finally then we can make some headway on this debate. Are there any golfwrx triplets out there willing to take this on?
[/quote]

With the topic at hand, I have a feeling where it's heading. Fool me once....

Again, I apologize...sent you a pm.

[cloozoe]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399576092' post='9258471']
What we need is three identical triplets. We give two of them my same setup. the third gets a set of SGIs with the same shafts and everything else. They then play their careers and we take statistics on all their scores with those clubs at all their varying skill levels. Finally then we can make some headway on this debate. Are there any golfwrx triplets out there willing to take this on?
[/quote]

Alas, there is no such thing as 'identical triplets'. The experiment will have to wait for human cloning.

[Startzel]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399575514' post='9258413']

But again using CBs at the professional level is not an absolute truth. If the benefit was absolute then there would be zero percent playing blades. I agree CBs in general will make the game easier for most golfers but for whatever magical reason there is a significant number of golfers, at all skill levels, that actually play worse with them. I'm in the camp that doesn't score any different (to any significance from my own personal data, however flawed.) What I don't understand is why you have issue with the statement about blades making the game easier? I never made the statement myself, but I don't tell those people they are wrong. I can say for a fact that my players CB irons did not make the game easier or harder [b]for me[/b], but I can certainly understand a [b]different opinion [/b]and/or [b]different experience[/b] by someone else. If you have personal proof that a blade made your game worse in a side by side comparison with an SGI or GI club, by all means please share it so another fellow reader can learn and consider not to get some blades. [/quote]

What are you trying to say with, the "Using CB at the tour level is not an absolutely truth." At no point have I argued all PGA pros use cavity back irons. Either 1) you don't understand the argument of 2) you're intentionally misrepresenting the argument.

There is no magical reason that a significant amount of golfers will play worse because of a CB iron. You're arguing that forgiveness will somehow make it harder? How is that possible? My shot went too straight on a mishit? My shot went too far with a mishit? At no point is that negative.

With all benefits there is eventually a diminishing return of benefit. A + golfer that plays on the PGA Tour very well may not need the benefit that a CB iron provides because his swing is so consistent and his misses are rarer. But at no point will a CB iron make these world class golfers worse, however there are benefits of a blade that a CB can't offer. That is why tour golfers still use blades because there are additional benefits that come with the club. Those players would still play at an elite level with a CB though.

Don't you see the difference? This thread is arguing that some of those tour players would play worse with a CB. It's just an absurd argument.A 9 handicap such as Sean or the other mid to high handicappers that have posted in the other thread are not good enough to not benefit from the added forgiveness. Nor are they going to be good enough to truly take advantages of the features that make a blade useful to a professional.

I understand it, at the end of the day it is human nature to want to be special. That's why nearly every post on the subject has referenced one of the following phrases:

"I'm the exception"
"I'm one of the rare few"
"I know I'm in the minority"


If you want to play blades because they look cool, go for it. Just don't spread the rumor that they're making you a better player when you're a mid handicap.

[fairwaysRoverated]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399576092' post='9258471']
[quote name='BrickDaFunk' timestamp='1399568229' post='9257543']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399549570' post='9255517']
Where is the data?
[/quote]

Last I checked...this is an Internet forum. Not quite Golf Digest. In your efforts to inject some constructive criticism, you fall wildly short to get the proper attention of us mortal folk due to your tact...you should first get off your narcissistic high horse and then attempt to communicate within the topic of discussion at a "human" level.

Sorry OP, couldn't help myself after what I read in Sean2's thread...nice write up, take care.

Edit: Startzel, should you choose to reply, you can certainly have the last word...you're welcome.
[/quote]
Thanks Brick and I don't see where Startzel is on a high horse here. I've clarified my definition of data in a separate response. I'm not a moderator but as the OP trying to maintain a civil debate, I want to mention I don't see any narcissism in this question. If he doesn't agree with that definition of data that's fine. I've provided full disclosure on my observations and admit this isn't a perfect experiment with perfect data (but I'll bet it's more than most others have experience with!).

What we need is three identical triplets. We give two of them my same setup. the third gets a set of SGIs with the same shafts and everything else. They then play their careers and we take statistics on all their scores with those clubs at all their varying skill levels. Finally then we can make some headway on this debate. Are there any golfwrx triplets out there willing to take this on?
[/quote]He said that due to some responses by Mr. Startzel in Sean2's last post regarding blades. It was a sore subject in that tread.

[fairwaysRoverated]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399577995' post='9258661']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399575514' post='9258413']
But again using CBs at the professional level is not an absolute truth. If the benefit was absolute then there would be zero percent playing blades. I agree CBs in general will make the game easier for most golfers but for whatever magical reason there is a significant number of golfers, at all skill levels, that actually play worse with them. I'm in the camp that doesn't score any different (to any significance from my own personal data, however flawed.) What I don't understand is why you have issue with the statement about blades making the game easier? I never made the statement myself, but I don't tell those people they are wrong. I can say for a fact that my players CB irons did not make the game easier or harder [b]for me[/b], but I can certainly understand a [b]different opinion [/b]and/or [b]different experience[/b] by someone else. If you have personal proof that a blade made your game worse in a side by side comparison with an SGI or GI club, by all means please share it so another fellow reader can learn and consider not to get some blades. [/quote]

What are you trying to say with, the "Using CB at the tour level is not an absolutely truth." At no point have I argued all PGA pros use cavity back irons. Either 1) you don't understand the argument of 2) you're intentionally misrepresenting the argument.

There is no magical reason that a significant amount of golfers will play worse because of a CB iron. You're arguing that forgiveness will somehow make it harder? How is that possible? My shot went too straight on a mishit? My shot went too far with a mishit? At no point is that negative.

With all benefits there is eventually a diminishing return of benefit. A + golfer that plays on the PGA Tour very well may not need the benefit that a CB iron provides because his swing is so consistent and his misses are rarer. But at no point will a CB iron make these world class golfers worse, however there are benefits of a blade that a CB can't offer. That is why tour golfers still use blades because there are additional benefits that come with the club. Those players would still play at an elite level with a CB though.

Don't you see the difference? This thread is arguing that some of those tour players would play worse with a CB. It's just an absurd argument.A 9 handicap such as Sean or the other mid to high handicappers that have posted in the other thread are not good enough to not benefit from the added forgiveness. Nor are they going to be good enough to truly take advantages of the features that make a blade useful to a professional.

I understand it, at the end of the day it is human nature to want to be special. That's why nearly every post on the subject has referenced one of the following phrases:

"I'm the exception"
"I'm one of the rare few"
"I know I'm in the minority"


If you want to play blades because they look cool, go for it. Just don't spread the rumor that they're making you a better player when you're a mid handicap.
[/quote]Oh boy, back on the merry go round.

[TJCDAS]

I am lost regarding the OP. The only advantage of the MP-60's is more forgiveness, anyone that has played these will also tell you they give just as much feedback as blades, with precision shotmaking and the same workability of blades.

The sweetspot for MB, CB and SGI are exactly the same and they all feel great when flushed. Mishits get a better result with GI and SGI clubs.

I play shovels G10 as my main set, I also play forged TP R7 from Taylormade Japan, the shovels feel just a good as the CB's, I shoot the same scores with both, but I play the R7s to be 5 yards shorter due to losing some extra distance on mishits compared to the Pings. Is one set better the the other no, would I become a better player if I only played the R7s, no.

If I played MB would I become a better player, no--played 20 years with blades, my game or swing neither improved or suffered when I changed to a GI CB.

I hit my g10's dramatically longer than my old MacGregor Tourney DX2s but the old 5 iron is basically the same as the modern 7 iron.




[u][i][b][color=#282828]"By far a blade is my preferred type of iron to play simply because there is no better feeling in golf than puring one." [/color][/b][/i][/u]

[fairwaysRoverated]

I think golf is so much more about the mental aspect of it than anything to do with what you actually have in your hands. Confidence and belief leads to no tention and a free mind which frees you up to hit good shots. Too much stuff going through your mind leads to indecision and tight muscles wich lead to bad shots. My local pro and coach is Rob Noel. He's a top 5 instructor in Louisiana and teaches some guys on the web.com tour and also a couple of them play a few tournaments on the PGA. I asked him this question when I started taking lessons. Waht level do I need to get to in order to play blades. He response was that anyone can play blades. It doesn't really matter. I then bought a set of MP69's and with the combination of practice and lesson started shooting the best scores of my life. I was hitting a ton of greens. Now, I realize it wasn't the blades that did this. It was the work and being coached by a good instructor, but the blades didn't hinder me from getting better which some would argue they should. The things that kept me from getting close to shotting par were the nerves of realising I had one hole to go to shoot below 80 or even par on the front nine. My putting was never really good and would cost me around 5 strokes a round. The equipment is just the tool, the mind and body are the machine that carry out the tasks at hand. Some machine are born more talented than others. Human beings can be capable of incredible feats. I don't see how anyone can put a limit on another human being without knowing them or their abilities.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='TJCDAS' timestamp='1399579245' post='9258803']
I am lost regarding the OP. The only advantage of the MP-60's is more forgiveness, anyone that has played these will also tell you they give just as much feedback as blades, with precision shotmaking and the same workability of blades.
[/quote]

That is exactly my conclusion: They did not give me as much feedback as the blades in my experience. They gave feedback, just not as much. Same goes for workability. The difference was slight but noticeable. Isn't this why other players like to use mixed sets with blades for the scoring irons? They are looking for that slight bit of superior workability and precision shotmaking. Every little bit counts to them, I guess.

I still work my MP-60s and try the same shots as I do with the blades. I simply just have to set up for more of a harder draw or fade as compared to my set up for a blade.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399577995' post='9258661']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399575514' post='9258413']
But again using CBs at the professional level is not an absolute truth. If the benefit was absolute then there would be zero percent playing blades. I agree CBs in general will make the game easier for most golfers but for whatever magical reason there is a significant number of golfers, at all skill levels, that actually play worse with them. I'm in the camp that doesn't score any different (to any significance from my own personal data, however flawed.) What I don't understand is why you have issue with the statement about blades making the game easier? I never made the statement myself, but I don't tell those people they are wrong. I can say for a fact that my players CB irons did not make the game easier or harder [b]for me[/b], but I can certainly understand a [b]different opinion [/b]and/or [b]different experience[/b] by someone else. If you have personal proof that a blade made your game worse in a side by side comparison with an SGI or GI club, by all means please share it so another fellow reader can learn and consider not to get some blades. [/quote]

What are you trying to say with, the "Using CB at the tour level is not an absolutely truth." At no point have I argued all PGA pros use cavity back irons. Either 1) you don't understand the argument of 2) you're intentionally misrepresenting the argument.

There is no magical reason that a significant amount of golfers will play worse because of a CB iron. You're arguing that forgiveness will somehow make it harder? How is that possible? My shot went too straight on a mishit? My shot went too far with a mishit? At no point is that negative.

With all benefits there is eventually a diminishing return of benefit. A + golfer that plays on the PGA Tour very well may not need the benefit that a CB iron provides because his swing is so consistent and his misses are rarer. But at no point will a CB iron make these world class golfers worse, however there are benefits of a blade that a CB can't offer. That is why tour golfers still use blades because there are additional benefits that come with the club. Those players would still play at an elite level with a CB though.

Don't you see the difference? This thread is arguing that some of those tour players would play worse with a CB. It's just an absurd argument.A 9 handicap such as Sean or the other mid to high handicappers that have posted in the other thread are not good enough to not benefit from the added forgiveness. Nor are they going to be good enough to truly take advantages of the features that make a blade useful to a professional.

I understand it, at the end of the day it is human nature to want to be special. That's why nearly every post on the subject has referenced one of the following phrases:

"I'm the exception"
"I'm one of the rare few"
"I know I'm in the minority"


If you want to play blades because they look cool, go for it. Just don't spread the rumor that they're making you a better player when you're a mid handicap.
[/quote]

If 100% of the tour used CBs, then it would be an absolute truth that CB clubs help you score better than blades is all I meant. Since they don't, then it's not.

Can you also please quote me on my alleged rumor that blades made me (or anyone) a better player? I don't recall ever typing that. I simply said that a blade and a CB made no difference to my scores and this was a consistent result when my handicap was 16 and also down to 7 for 7 years of playing serious golf. I also don't know where I ever stated that I play blades because they look cool.

Also looked back further and also never said a tour player would play worse with a CB. What I ultimately tried to respond to you on is that, assuming tour players play the club that allows them to score the lowest, 25% of them believe that the blade allows them to score the lowest. That is all. BTW, this is your same argument (I think...correct me if I am wrong) about why 75% play CBs. It's again a shade of grey regarding the benefit of a CB and scoring, not an absolute.

I know full well that by design a more forgiving sweetspot will allow more off center hits to result in a decent shot. What's not clear is whether or not the design differences have any significance or not in the real world at any level of golfer's skill to really matter. It's clear from the number of posters and vast their vast differences in opinions that one cannot make an absolute claim.

In regards to your comments about mid handicappers, do you have some side by side comparison data regarding Sean2's (or anyone else) scores with a SGI and a blade to prove your point? Do you have any real world data on this topic? You've made some strong comments about how you think that level is not good enough to take advantage of benefits and such. I'm wondering how you formed such an opinion and would be interested in the validity of it.

I'm also wondering where any of the phrases you mention are? I joke about calling myself special all the time. Where are all the normal people?

Lastly, I would politely ask that you read what I write thoroughly before responding. I have no issue with supporting my own claims but I am struggling with defending claims that I never made. I hope you can understand. I will try to do the same with your posts.

[govols]

I post this pic a good bit. If your blades look like this you're the man. If not forgive my inter webs skepticism.

 

 

[OspreyCI]

[quote name='cloozoe' timestamp='1399551536' post='9255629']
[i]"...[color=#282828]75% of the tour plays CBs..."[/color][/i]

A counterintuitive observation while begging the question of whether more "forgiving" clubs do or do not result in lower scores:

Forgiveness is [i]more[/i] important for a pro than it is for me.

If they mis-hit a shot slightly and it costs them 10 yards of distance/direction vs 5, it costs them money. It costs me nothing.

If I shoot an 85 but get a kick out of the aesthetics of my clubs, or extra enjoyment out of the feel of the well-struck shots, or the pleasure of occasionally shaping a shot [i]precisely[/i] the way I want to, might that not be more important to me than shooting an 80? I don't play competitively so why would I care? (rhetorical question; I don't).
[/quote]
Great post right there^^^^ couldn't agree more.

To the OP,
Wonderful write-up and enjoyed it. I have experienced my scores going up since I got the G25's (yes, shoot me down) and the G15's I tried before. I think I am just more comfortable with a players iron and really do like a well struck shot with a forged players iron much better.

Yes, glad to hear that your scores did not differ with either iron played.

[Mitchell]

This may or may not be a salient point, I will leave it up to the forum to decide, this is an observation from being a participant in this forum since nearly its inception- Does anyone recall an instance here in which a user of blade irons has felt it necessary to criticize club choice of cavity back user?

[govols]

[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399585663' post='9259525']
This may or may not be a salient point, I will leave it up to the forum to decide, this is an observation from being a participant in this forum since nearly its inception- Does anyone recall an instance here in which a user of blade irons has felt it necessary to criticize club choice of cavity back user?
[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with being critical or just flat out not believing something on a messageboard that is pretty far fetched to begin with. It's my opinion if you don't at least hit it dead solid every time then you have no business playing blades but I'm not buying them so play whatever. The thing is some post these threads looking for their own justification & to have their ego stroked. There are quite a few like minded in this regard. With nothing to back up anything you should expect skepticism & criticism that really doesn't make sense.

[Sean2]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399586751' post='9259617']
[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399585663' post='9259525']
This may or may not be a salient point, I will leave it up to the forum to decide, this is an observation from being a participant in this forum since nearly its inception- Does anyone recall an instance here in which a user of blade irons has felt it necessary to criticize club choice of cavity back user?
[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with being critical or just flat out not believing something on a messageboard that is pretty far fetched to begin with. It's my opinion if you don't at least hit it dead solid every time then you have no business playing blades but I'm not buying them so play whatever. The thing is some post these threads looking for their own justification & to have their ego stroked. There are quite a few like minded in this regard. With nothing to back up anything you should expect skepticism & criticism that really doesn't make sense.
[/quote]

So if a guy hits the occasional pull hook OB/hazard with GI's, but never does that with blades, though he doesn't hit the sweet spot every time, he should stay with the GI

The arrogance some of you people have is breathtaking. To think that everyone who plays a blade is because of ego. How narrow-minded can you get.

I like losing fewer golf balls. I like my misses to go straighter. I like my scores to drop. Perhaps you are one of those golfers that think that people should play the iron their HI indicates, regardless of the result. Brilliant.

ps: The only reason I think I might be hitting these irons better is that I finally have the correct shafts in them. I don't know.

If you, or Startzel, wants to purchase a set of SpeedBlades for me with my specs, and the shafts I currently have, I will test both head-to-head and give an honest assessment. If the SpeedBlades win, so be it. If not, there you go.

Either way, you and Startzel will get your answer, even though you already seems to have all of them.

[govols]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1399591678' post='9259983']
[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399586751' post='9259617']
[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399585663' post='9259525']
This may or may not be a salient point, I will leave it up to the forum to decide, this is an observation from being a participant in this forum since nearly its inception- Does anyone recall an instance here in which a user of blade irons has felt it necessary to criticize club choice of cavity back user?
[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with being critical or just flat out not believing something on a messageboard that is pretty far fetched to begin with. It's my opinion if you don't at least hit it dead solid every time then you have no business playing blades but I'm not buying them so play whatever. The thing is some post these threads looking for their own justification & to have their ego stroked. There are quite a few like minded in this regard. With nothing to back up anything you should expect skepticism & criticism that really doesn't make sense.
[/quote]

So if a guy hits the occasional pull hook OB/hazard with GI's, but never does that with blades, though he doesn't hit the sweet spot every time, he should stay with the GI?

The arrogance some of you people have is breathtaking. To think that everyone who plays a blade is because of ego. How narrow-minded can you get.

I like losing fewer golf balls. I like my misses to go straighter. I like my scores to drop. Perhaps you are one of those golfers that think that people should play the iron their HI indicates, regardless of the result. Brilliant.
[/quote]

No offense but what you say doesn't make sense & with no proof I don't believe it. The only other logical conclusion is you're so bad that it doesn't really matter what you use but I won't assume that. You say blades are more forgiving for you which doesn't make sense when there are pros that hit them dead sold in the center of the face every time & sometimes still struggle.

[Sean2]

There you go, proof has already been offered. It's YOUR choice not to believe it. What is the point of your continuing to post in this thread then?

So it doesn't make sense to YOU. That is YOUR problem. As I said, why continue to post. You can't grasp the reality of some people playing a blade better than a GI and finding them more forgiving.

Quit wasting our time with your doubts. It is what it is. We aren't lying. To suggest otherwise is highly offensive.

If you don't have anything useful to contribute to this thread, then don't contribute anything at all.

[fairwaysRoverated]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399592133' post='9260025']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1399591678' post='9259983']
[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399586751' post='9259617']
[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399585663' post='9259525']
This may or may not be a salient point, I will leave it up to the forum to decide, this is an observation from being a participant in this forum since nearly its inception- Does anyone recall an instance here in which a user of blade irons has felt it necessary to criticize club choice of cavity back user?
[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with being critical or just flat out not believing something on a messageboard that is pretty far fetched to begin with. It's my opinion if you don't at least hit it dead solid every time then you have no business playing blades but I'm not buying them so play whatever. The thing is some post these threads looking for their own justification & to have their ego stroked. There are quite a few like minded in this regard. With nothing to back up anything you should expect skepticism & criticism that really doesn't make sense.
[/quote]

So if a guy hits the occasional pull hook OB/hazard with GI's, but never does that with blades, though he doesn't hit the sweet spot every time, he should stay with the GI?

The arrogance some of you people have is breathtaking. To think that everyone who plays a blade is because of ego. How narrow-minded can you get.

I like losing fewer golf balls. I like my misses to go straighter. I like my scores to drop. Perhaps you are one of those golfers that think that people should play the iron their HI indicates, regardless of the result. Brilliant.
[/quote]

No offense but what you say doesn't make sense & with no proof I don't believe it. The only other logical conclusion is you're so bad that it doesn't really matter what you use but I won't assume that. You say blades are more forgiving for you which doesn't make sense when there are pros that hit them dead sold in the center of the face every time & sometimes still struggle.
[/quote]Talk about an extreme analogy. Why would we compare anything that we do to PROFESSIONAL golfers that play on the hardest courses under the wosrt conditions as far as fast greens and thick rough, and play way longer than anything we play on. There's absolutely no reason to compare the 2. Pros struggle because of those conditions, not the fact they have a blade in their hand. Why does Lee Westwood struggle with his I20's? Because of the course. You would think he'd win everything because he's playing a more forgiving club than the blade players.

[govols]

[quote name='fairwaysroverated' timestamp='1399593376' post='9260123']
[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399592133' post='9260025']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1399591678' post='9259983']
[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399586751' post='9259617']
[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399585663' post='9259525']
This may or may not be a salient point, I will leave it up to the forum to decide, this is an observation from being a participant in this forum since nearly its inception- Does anyone recall an instance here in which a user of blade irons has felt it necessary to criticize club choice of cavity back user?
[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with being critical or just flat out not believing something on a messageboard that is pretty far fetched to begin with. It's my opinion if you don't at least hit it dead solid every time then you have no business playing blades but I'm not buying them so play whatever. The thing is some post these threads looking for their own justification & to have their ego stroked. There are quite a few like minded in this regard. With nothing to back up anything you should expect skepticism & criticism that really doesn't make sense.
[/quote]

So if a guy hits the occasional pull hook OB/hazard with GI's, but never does that with blades, though he doesn't hit the sweet spot every time, he should stay with the GI?

The arrogance some of you people have is breathtaking. To think that everyone who plays a blade is because of ego. How narrow-minded can you get.

I like losing fewer golf balls. I like my misses to go straighter. I like my scores to drop. Perhaps you are one of those golfers that think that people should play the iron their HI indicates, regardless of the result. Brilliant.
[/quote]

No offense but what you say doesn't make sense & with no proof I don't believe it. The only other logical conclusion is you're so bad that it doesn't really matter what you use but I won't assume that. You say blades are more forgiving for you which doesn't make sense when there are pros that hit them dead sold in the center of the face every time & sometimes still struggle.
[/quote]Talk about an extreme analogy. Why would we compare anything that we do to PROFESSIONAL golfers that play on the hardest courses under the wosrt conditions as far as fast greens and thick rough, and play way longer than anything we play on. There's absolutely no reason to compare the 2. Pros struggle because of those conditions, not the fact they have a blade in their hand. Why does Lee Westwood struggle with his I20's? Because of the course. You would think he'd win everything because he's playing a more forgiving club than the blade players.
[/quote]

Yea & at the very least they hit the ball dead solid. I guess sometimes blades aren't as forgiving for them as y'all.

[fairwaysRoverated]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399593776' post='9260171']
[quote name='fairwaysroverated' timestamp='1399593376' post='9260123']
[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399592133' post='9260025']
[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1399591678' post='9259983']
[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399586751' post='9259617']
[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399585663' post='9259525']
This may or may not be a salient point, I will leave it up to the forum to decide, this is an observation from being a participant in this forum since nearly its inception- Does anyone recall an instance here in which a user of blade irons has felt it necessary to criticize club choice of cavity back user?
[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with being critical or just flat out not believing something on a messageboard that is pretty far fetched to begin with. It's my opinion if you don't at least hit it dead solid every time then you have no business playing blades but I'm not buying them so play whatever. The thing is some post these threads looking for their own justification & to have their ego stroked. There are quite a few like minded in this regard. With nothing to back up anything you should expect skepticism & criticism that really doesn't make sense.
[/quote]

So if a guy hits the occasional pull hook OB/hazard with GI's, but never does that with blades, though he doesn't hit the sweet spot every time, he should stay with the GI?

The arrogance some of you people have is breathtaking. To think that everyone who plays a blade is because of ego. How narrow-minded can you get.

I like losing fewer golf balls. I like my misses to go straighter. I like my scores to drop. Perhaps you are one of those golfers that think that people should play the iron their HI indicates, regardless of the result. Brilliant.
[/quote]

No offense but what you say doesn't make sense & with no proof I don't believe it. The only other logical conclusion is you're so bad that it doesn't really matter what you use but I won't assume that. You say blades are more forgiving for you which doesn't make sense when there are pros that hit them dead sold in the center of the face every time & sometimes still struggle.
[/quote]Talk about an extreme analogy. Why would we compare anything that we do to PROFESSIONAL golfers that play on the hardest courses under the wosrt conditions as far as fast greens and thick rough, and play way longer than anything we play on. There's absolutely no reason to compare the 2. Pros struggle because of those conditions, not the fact they have a blade in their hand. Why does Lee Westwood struggle with his I20's? Because of the course. You would think he'd win everything because he's playing a more forgiving club than the blade players.
[/quote]

Yea & at the very least they hit the ball dead solid. I guess sometimes blades aren't as forgiving for them as y'all.
[/quote]I don't play blades, I play pings. I just recently went to the Zurich here at home and followed a few guys around. I followed Keegan B, Matt Evert, and Charles Howell. Those guys were struggling and not hitting the ball solid. You can hear it, and also read their body language. I followed Ricky F, Billy Horsel, and I forget the other guys. You could here a big difference in the sound of the hit. Much more solid sound. I guess what I'm saying is those guys are human too. They don't always tear up the center of the club, but they know how to adjust depending on how they're hitting it that day. I'm telling ya, golf is more about mental focus and strength over what type of club your hitting. It's the mind. You CAN NOT act contrary to what you truly believe about yourself regardless of your ability, and on the other side if you truly believe you can do something you will.

[govols]

You're free to believe what you want. I've been to quite a few tour events myself.

[Mitchell]

The lack of civility in expression of differing opinions recently on this forum is not only disappointing, but contrary to principles upon which site was founded.

[Rock Chalk Jayhawk]

Well that escalated quickly. I'm shocked. Usually these blades vs CB threads go so well.

[topr]

Ya it's so adorable when someone starts a blade vs cavity back comparison thread and thinks it's going to be different because it was well intended.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='fairwaysroverated' timestamp='1399580388' post='9258933']
I think golf is so much more about the mental aspect of it than anything to do with what you actually have in your hands. Confidence and belief leads to no tention and a free mind which frees you up to hit good shots. Too much stuff going through your mind leads to indecision and tight muscles wich lead to bad shots. My local pro and coach is Rob Noel. He's a top 5 instructor in Louisiana and teaches some guys on the web.com tour and also a couple of them play a few tournaments on the PGA. I asked him this question when I started taking lessons. Waht level do I need to get to in order to play blades. He response was that anyone can play blades. It doesn't really matter. I then bought a set of MP69's and with the combination of practice and lesson started shooting the best scores of my life. I was hitting a ton of greens. Now, I realize it wasn't the blades that did this. It was the work and being coached by a good instructor, but the blades didn't hinder me from getting better which some would argue they should. The things that kept me from getting close to shotting par were the nerves of realising I had one hole to go to shoot below 80 or even par on the front nine. My putting was never really good and would cost me around 5 strokes a round. The equipment is just the tool, the mind and body are the machine that carry out the tasks at hand. Some machine are born more talented than others. Human beings can be capable of incredible feats. I don't see how anyone can put a limit on another human being without knowing them or their abilities.
[/quote]

Nice post overall and thanks for sharing the story about your instructor.

[quote name='OspreyCI' timestamp='1399584424' post='9259417']
Great post right there^^^^ couldn't agree more.

To the OP,
Wonderful write-up and enjoyed it. I have experienced my scores going up since I got the G25's (yes, shoot me down) and the G15's I tried before. I think I am just more comfortable with a players iron and really do like a well struck shot with a forged players iron much better.

Yes, glad to hear that your scores did not differ with either iron played.
[/quote]

Thanks for the kind words and I want people to enjoy it. It was fun to write up like a science report.

[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399585663' post='9259525']
This may or may not be a salient point, I will leave it up to the forum to decide, this is an observation from being a participant in this forum since nearly its inception- Does anyone recall an instance here in which a user of blade irons has felt it necessary to criticize club choice of cavity back user?
[/quote]

Mitchell as a veteran member here, do you really feel this question is going to illicit a constructive response? If you PM me I will give you my answer. With all due respect and IMHO this is not a salient point as it pertains to whether or not CBs help a golfer score better.

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399586751' post='9259617']
There's nothing wrong with being critical or just flat out not believing something on a messageboard that is pretty far fetched to begin with. It's my opinion if you don't at least hit it dead solid every time then you have no business playing blades but I'm not buying them so play whatever. The thing is some post these threads looking for their own justification & to have their ego stroked. There are quite a few like minded in this regard. With nothing to back up anything you should expect skepticism & criticism that really doesn't make sense.
[/quote]
I hope that I have not given anyone the impression that I need my ego stroked by creating this thread. I've simply written up how I've played golf for the last 7 years. I felt that my story was unique in that I had a very consistent set up (same shafts, grips, golf course etc), so I decided to share it for the benefit of this forum. As I've played this way over the years, I've read blade vs CB threads ad nauseum and a lot of them contain very opinionated and unsubstantiated comments on both sides. I wanted to have the discussion in this thread from as much of an objective perspective as possible.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='topr' timestamp='1399606162' post='9261349']
Ya it's so adorable when someone starts a blade vs cavity back comparison thread and thinks it's going to be different because it was well intended.
[/quote]

Well, I did say "futile" in my attempt. At least a few here enjoyed the story. I can take that if this is all it was worth.

[Geohans]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399553101' post='9255779']
[quote name='cloozoe' timestamp='1399551536' post='9255629']
[i]"...[color=#282828]75% of the tour plays CBs..."[/color][/i]

A counterintuitive observation while begging the question of whether more "forgiving" clubs do or do not result in lower scores:

Forgiveness is [i]more[/i] important for a pro than it is for me.

If they mis-hit a shot slightly and it costs them 10 yards of distance/direction vs 5, it costs them money. It costs me nothing.

If I shoot an 85 but get a kick out of the aesthetics of my clubs, or extra enjoyment out of the feel of the well-struck shots, or the pleasure of occasionally shaping a shot [i]precisely[/i] the way I want to, might that not be more important to me than shooting an 80? I don't play competitively so why would I care? (rhetorical question; I don't).
[/quote]

Absolutely, I don't believe anyone will disagree with this. If someone wants to play blades for enjoyment and shoot an 85 instead of an 80 I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

[b]I think the issue for me is that there are people arguing that blades make the game easier for them. That just isn't true, even for the best players in the world CBs are the preferred choice.[/b]
[/quote]


You see, this is so patently provably false that it has me scratching my head. Blades DO make the game easier for SOME people. We've shown that over and over in the last two threads. It makes it easier for SOME people to maintain their swing.

[Geohans]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399577995' post='9258661']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399575514' post='9258413']
But again using CBs at the professional level is not an absolute truth. If the benefit was absolute then there would be zero percent playing blades. I agree CBs in general will make the game easier for most golfers but for whatever magical reason there is a significant number of golfers, at all skill levels, that actually play worse with them. I'm in the camp that doesn't score any different (to any significance from my own personal data, however flawed.) What I don't understand is why you have issue with the statement about blades making the game easier? I never made the statement myself, but I don't tell those people they are wrong. I can say for a fact that my players CB irons did not make the game easier or harder [b]for me[/b], but I can certainly understand a [b]different opinion [/b]and/or [b]different experience[/b] by someone else. If you have personal proof that a blade made your game worse in a side by side comparison with an SGI or GI club, by all means please share it so another fellow reader can learn and consider not to get some blades. [/quote]

What are you trying to say with, the "Using CB at the tour level is not an absolutely truth." At no point have I argued all PGA pros use cavity back irons. Either 1) you don't understand the argument of 2) you're intentionally misrepresenting the argument.

There is no magical reason that a significant amount of golfers will play worse because of a CB iron. You're arguing that forgiveness will somehow make it harder? How is that possible? My shot went too straight on a mishit? My shot went too far with a mishit? At no point is that negative.

With all benefits there is eventually a diminishing return of benefit. A + golfer that plays on the PGA Tour very well may not need the benefit that a CB iron provides because his swing is so consistent and his misses are rarer. But at no point will a CB iron make these world class golfers worse, however there are benefits of a blade that a CB can't offer. That is why tour golfers still use blades because there are additional benefits that come with the club. Those players would still play at an elite level with a CB though.

Don't you see the difference? This thread is arguing that some of those tour players would play worse with a CB. It's just an absurd argument.A 9 handicap such as Sean or the other mid to high handicappers that have posted in the other thread are not good enough to not benefit from the added forgiveness. Nor are they going to be good enough to truly take advantages of the features that make a blade useful to a professional.

I understand it, at the end of the day it is human nature to want to be special. That's why nearly every post on the subject has referenced one of the following phrases:

"I'm the exception"
"I'm one of the rare few"
"I know I'm in the minority"


If you want to play blades because they look cool, go for it. Just don't spread the rumor that they're making you a better player when you're a mid handicap.
[/quote]


So many false assumptions here. I started playing blades at a 16hc; 8 months later I was a 6, and yes the blades helped. Traditional COG location, relatively slender sole, offset approaching practical zero; these things all helped my game.

Please note I did not say they would help everyone-- altho Bobby Clampett and Charles Howell III have said as much.

So those reading these threads who have never spent time with blades because you read Mr. Star's posts-- which seem to be based on the assumption that every human golfer will respond the same way Iron Byron responds-- please put those posts in the context of their self-evident own falseness.

The result of "forgiveness" is not simply "My shot went straighter." The effect of whacky COGs and super offset can be profoundly negative on a human golfer, irrespective of what they may do to the numbers on a spreadsheet from an Iron Byron session.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Geohans' timestamp='1399611889' post='9261623']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399553101' post='9255779']
[quote name='cloozoe' timestamp='1399551536' post='9255629']
[i]"...[color=#282828]75% of the tour plays CBs..."[/color][/i]

A counterintuitive observation while begging the question of whether more "forgiving" clubs do or do not result in lower scores:

Forgiveness is [i]more[/i] important for a pro than it is for me.

If they mis-hit a shot slightly and it costs them 10 yards of distance/direction vs 5, it costs them money. It costs me nothing.

If I shoot an 85 but get a kick out of the aesthetics of my clubs, or extra enjoyment out of the feel of the well-struck shots, or the pleasure of occasionally shaping a shot [i]precisely[/i] the way I want to, might that not be more important to me than shooting an 80? I don't play competitively so why would I care? (rhetorical question; I don't).
[/quote]

Absolutely, I don't believe anyone will disagree with this. If someone wants to play blades for enjoyment and shoot an 85 instead of an 80 I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

[b]I think the issue for me is that there are people arguing that blades make the game easier for them. That just isn't true, even for the best players in the world CBs are the preferred choice.[/b]
[/quote]


You see, this is so patently provably false that it has me scratching my head. Blades DO make the game easier for SOME people. We've shown that over and over in the last two threads. It makes it easier for SOME people to maintain their swing.
[/quote]

Given that I've convinced myself that blades did not make the game easier or harder for me, with my personal experience, I can see how there may be some people that find blades are no problem and no different than any other club and in fact are the perfect club for their game to score the best.

It is my unsubstantiated opinion that these people are likely the type that work very hard on their swing, regardless of skill level, and are more of a feel oriented type rather than technical learner. Also they may be the type that take a very zen like attitude to the game, the type that don't give a F^(% about score or result and just go at the ball. It's just a guess...

[Geohans]

Mr. Star, why don't you start a thread listing all the elements of "forgiveness." Then show why all players would benefit from having more of all of these elements.

I can explain (and did) how and why my traditional club heads helped my game and my swing. Explain why this cannot be true, and that I must be a fool or a liar.

Back it up with some numbers. We got numbers from Titleist on yards lost on off center hits; show us why based on those numbers anyone would choose to play the AP2s, which clearly lose more yards and are less forgiving than AP1s.

Do it in your own thread- not in a thread where a guy actually tried to do a real "experiment" (not scientific but more than what you've provided).

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Geohans' timestamp='1399613110' post='9261665']
Do it in your own thread- not in a thread where a guy actually tried to do a real "experiment" (not scientific but more than what you've provided).
[/quote]
My real motivation to do this was simply to have a backup and forgiving set to my mp-67s. I am pseudo OCD so I made sure the mp-60s were set up exactly like the 67s so that I could switch back and forth between them without too much change in feel. I really did learn there is a difference in feel and workability between the two. There are other posters that claim the two clubs types are the same and nearly equivalent but I can tell you from hundreds of rounds playing both sets that there are significant yet subtle differences between the two.

I'm not trying to convince myself this is true either. I love both sets for what they provide me. I get my forgiving 60s and my precision 67s and I freely change up between them based on my mood. I've intentionally tried to switch to the 60s when I had a bad ballstriking day with my 67s and found that the "help" from the 60s was for naught when my swing was bad. When my swing was "on" I would always want the 67s because the much superior feel and a little better control.

If I were really intending this to be an experiment I would have gone full bore enginerd into it. Complete stats taken with each iron number and type for every round and shot played. Means, sigmas, probability distribution curves, the works. Design of Experiments at its best.