DeNinny's Blade vs CB Experiment and Data

[govols]

Some people sure are touchy. It's like they need validation to play a certain club. Play what you want & make whatever claims you want but nobody has to actually believe it especially with the "rationale" provided. A club with some offset, a cavity, thicker sole, a low cog,.....what's that produce? A club that glides on the turf, that produces a higher & straighter ball flight with forgiveness on miss hits. Yea I can see how blades would be more forgiving for the mid-high handicapper. It's not on my dime so who cares.

[HiSpeed48]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399614522' post='9261721']
Some people sure are touchy. It's like they need validation to play a certain club. Play what you want & make whatever claims you want but nobody has to actually believe it especially with the "rationale" provided. [b]A club with some offset, a cavity, thicker sole, a low cog,.....what's that produce?[/b] A club that glides on the turf, that produces a higher & straighter ball flight with forgiveness on miss hits. Yea I can see how blades would be more forgiving for the mid-high handicapper. It's not on my dime so who cares.
[/quote]

For some players:
-hooks
-shots that travel farther right/left
-more interference with the ground on uneven lies and more resistance from the rough
-balloon balls

[DeNinny]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399614522' post='9261721']
Some people sure are touchy. It's like they need validation to play a certain club. Play what you want & make whatever claims you want but nobody has to actually believe it especially with the "rationale" provided. A club with some offset, a cavity, thicker sole, a low cog,.....what's that produce? A club that glides on the turf, that produces a higher & straighter ball flight with forgiveness on miss hits. Yea I can see how blades would be more forgiving for the mid-high handicapper. It's not on my dime so who cares.
[/quote]
It's hard for me to understand how blades can be viewed as forgiving too. They certainly are not from my experience. I don't think anyone can claim that as compared to a GI or SGI club. But what I won't argue against are the claims that someone is able to score better when using blades. I would not argue with them nor the 25% of tour players that may also feel that way.

[govols]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399615749' post='9261749']
[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399614522' post='9261721']
Some people sure are touchy. It's like they need validation to play a certain club. Play what you want & make whatever claims you want but nobody has to actually believe it especially with the "rationale" provided. A club with some offset, a cavity, thicker sole, a low cog,.....what's that produce? A club that glides on the turf, that produces a higher & straighter ball flight with forgiveness on miss hits. Yea I can see how blades would be more forgiving for the mid-high handicapper. It's not on my dime so who cares.
[/quote]
It's hard for me to understand how blades can be viewed as forgiving too. They certainly are not from my experience. I don't think anyone can claim that as compared to a GI or SGI club. But what I won't argue against are the claims that someone is able to score better when using blades. I would not argue with them nor the 25% of tour players that may also feel that way.
[/quote]

It may have been the other thread but the guy said a blade was more forgiving "for him". Like personal ability defies laws of physics. I know they aren't forgiving.

[govols]

[quote name='HiSpeed48' timestamp='1399615637' post='9261745']
[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399614522' post='9261721']
Some people sure are touchy. It's like they need validation to play a certain club. Play what you want & make whatever claims you want but nobody has to actually believe it especially with the "rationale" provided. [b]A club with some offset, a cavity, thicker sole, a low cog,.....what's that produce?[/b] A club that glides on the turf, that produces a higher & straighter ball flight with forgiveness on miss hits. Yea I can see how blades would be more forgiving for the mid-high handicapper. It's not on my dime so who cares.
[/quote]

For some players:
-hooks
-shots that travel farther right/left
-more interference with the ground on uneven lies and more resistance from the rough
-balloon balls
[/quote]

I guess it's easy to fit every club with a hint of these attributes under one blanket although there's many players clubs that have them.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='HiSpeed48' timestamp='1399615637' post='9261745']
[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399614522' post='9261721']
Some people sure are touchy. It's like they need validation to play a certain club. Play what you want & make whatever claims you want but nobody has to actually believe it especially with the "rationale" provided. [b]A club with some offset, a cavity, thicker sole, a low cog,.....what's that produce?[/b] A club that glides on the turf, that produces a higher & straighter ball flight with forgiveness on miss hits. Yea I can see how blades would be more forgiving for the mid-high handicapper. It's not on my dime so who cares.
[/quote]

For some players:
-hooks
-shots that travel farther right/left
-more interference with the ground on uneven lies and more resistance from the rough
-balloon balls
[/quote]

This may be a real legitimate explanation to some of the reasons a blade may be easier to some people, especially the ground interference one. The width of the sole and also the typically higher bounce of a GI club may be difficult for some types of swings. Difficult enough to offset the difficulty of a blade's smaller sweetspot. I myself am a sweeper/picker and I think this is a swing style that matches up well with blades that have a low bounce. My (sometimes often) thin shots are better with my 67s which saves as many strokes for me that may be lost on other shots due to their poor forgiveness. The thin shots are often a low spinning knockdown shot that goes almost as far as a good shot. Thanks!

[DeNinny]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399618080' post='9261785']
It may have been the other thread but the guy said a blade was more forgiving "for him". Like personal ability defies laws of physics. I know they aren't forgiving.
[/quote]

The nerve of that guy. Thanks for clarifying. I also thought I was the touchy one.

[isaacbm]

Here's an example of how a blade can be more forgiving. you have a hardpan pitch over a bunker. Would you rather use a compact, sharp-soled low bounce head that is "less forgiving" or a big cavity back with 16 degrees bounce that is "super forgiving" on hits struck 1 inch from the sweet spot?

Blades are easier to hit from certain lies and in certain conditions. They are not technically "more forgiving" on mishits at any time but the simple fact is that they allow a player to hit shots that can't be hit with GI's.

Also, certain types of mishits are magnified with GI's that are not with blades. For example, if you semi skull a shot, It might carry 5 yards farther and therefore over the back of a green into a pond.

For me personally, I hit approximately 8-10 shots per round with irons that aren't wedges. that's all. So how much can my score really be influenced? Say I hit 4 of those shots close to flushed. Then I hit 4 more average/decent. Then I hit 2 bad. Well, bad for me might end up 40-60 feet away. And average might end up that distance too because I might have misread the lie or the wind or the bounce. If I misread the downwind shot, a GI might just put me even farther over the green.

The point is there are just so many variables to shooting a score. Of the 8-10 iron shots I hit per round, I'm mostly just trying to get it within 30-40 feet and trying to make a par. The birdies come from wedges and being green high in 2 on par 5's.

Irons just don't matter that much to me. How much does being fit to irons matter to me? Almost none. Blades vs cavity back? Almost none. Playing with a half set of irons? Almost none. My score will be the same no matter what because whether I miss it to 20,30,40 or 50 feet, I'm still basically trying to get down in 3 every time I have an iron over 140 yards. It's putting, scrambling, wedges, and then avoiding big numbers with driving that really affect my score. Irons are 5 on the list.

[Splitter]

These justification threads are great. It's always "this isn't about me, I just want to help the golf community". But, if you realy read them, it's consistently just justification for playing the club of their choice. You don't need justification guys. If blades work for you, I think that is great!

The issue with self justification is that it turns into group justification which leads to all sorts of "feelings" that get espoused as facts.

Golf is about feel. Feel directly impacts performance. The problem with feel is that it is *extremely* difficult to quantify.

The grip, shaft (waggle, backswing, transition, downswing, impact , through), head impact (toe, heel, high, low), turf interaction, etc, etc.. Etc.. It's ALL feel.

IMHO some guys with average swings are lucky enough to find a set of blade like irons where most of the stars line up for them, THE COMBO PLAYS TO THEIR MISS and the feel and play is there. You have found a combo that fits YOUR miss. Congrats (Really!). And because, with that set of iron nirvana, suddenly blades are great and forgiveness is hype. I literally can't count the number if times I read in these threads that CB forgiveness is hype. It blows my mind when I see that. No congrats for that.

I have hit thousands of balls myself with everything from blades to SFHSGIS (Super Freakin Huge SGI Shovels). Maybe I am just extremely talented, but for some magical reason, I can feel a mishit in SGIs *and* blades. Blades hurt more, but I can still tell where my miss is on the shovels. Hint: I'm not extremely talented and my swing sucks but we can all feel a miss. Maybe some of us can translate that feel with both a blade and an SGI? A more pronounced clang does not mean misses can only be felt with blades tho...

But in the real world, *for most people*, those SGI misses go longer and straighter. I have LOL as the ball clanked off the toe to travel 150 yards and land next to the pin. But people on the internet want to call it hype?

The real proof is in the sales though. Walk into ANY store and ask the fitters what clubs come back. The majority are blades. Joe Sixpack reads these posts or has a buddy who found a blade that worked for him and gets convinced he can find the magic as well. He doesn't find the magic because bad swings on blades are punished more and unless he finds that unicorn shaft/head combo that fits his miss, he's screwed.

Fitters don't put player in CBs because of hype. They put players into them because they watch set after set of blades come back. Now, do those returns cause bias in some fitters that lead to a guy that could play a blade never getting to try one? Sure.

That said, If CB forgiveness was hype everyone would be playing blades. Every guy I know tries them. And many have owned more than one fitted set. We ALL want to play them. They look better and feel AWESOME on good hits. But if blades really were forgiving and easy as posters want us to believe, NOTHING could stop the average human ego driven sports fanatic male from playing them. NOTHING. Why? Because we all want to FREEKING play blades!,

I'm genuinely happy some guys have found blades that fit them. I'm even openly jealous. I even know how you feel because i play a 3W that a golfWRX review labeled "for players only", yet I hit it wonderfully. I would love to have a set of MPs in my bag. But after years of experience, I know better.

And, I am just so tired of theses unicorn blade players claiming that because of their corner case, the thousands of guys playing CBs should be switching to blades. I'm tired of using my SGIs to beat guys with blades only to have them tell me how much better I would be if I just gave blades a chance. They BEG me to hit their irons to prove that I should be playing blades. So I smack their blade down the fairway, it goes straight but lands 15 yards short because I missed it and blade guy is telling me "see, you CAN play blades!!!"

"Ya, I'll go look into them" I say.

Can't we all just enjoy what we play without useless justification threads?

[DeNinny]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1399621870' post='9261849']
Here's an example of how a blade can be more forgiving. you have a hardpan pitch over a bunker. Would you rather use a compact, sharp-soled low bounce head that is "less forgiving" or a big cavity back with 16 degrees bounce that is "super forgiving" on hits struck 1 inch from the sweet spot?

[b]Blades are easier to hit from certain lies and in certain conditions. They are not technically "more forgiving" on mishits at any time but the simple fact is that they allow a player to hit shots that can't be hit with GI's.[/b]

Also, certain types of mishits are magnified with GI's that are not with blades. For example, if you semi skull a shot, It might carry 5 yards farther and therefore over the back of a green into a pond.

For me personally, I hit approximately 8-10 shots per round with irons that aren't wedges. that's all. So how much can my score really be influenced? Say I hit 4 of those shots close to flushed. Then I hit 4 more average/decent. Then I hit 2 bad. Well, bad for me might end up 40-60 feet away. And average might end up that distance too because I might have misread the lie or the wind or the bounce. If I misread the downwind shot, a GI might just put me even farther over the green.

The point is there are just so many variables to shooting a score. Of the 8-10 iron shots I hit per round, I'm mostly just trying to get it within 30-40 feet and trying to make a par. The birdies come from wedges and being green high in 2 on par 5's.

Irons just don't matter that much to me. How much does being fit to irons matter to me? Almost none. Blades vs cavity back? Almost none. Playing with a half set of irons? Almost none. My score will be the same no matter what because whether I miss it to 20,30,40 or 50 feet, I'm still basically trying to get down in 3 every time I have an iron over 140 yards. It's putting, scrambling, wedges, and then avoiding big numbers with driving that really affect my score. Irons are 5 on the list.
[/quote]

isaacbm thank you for such a logical technical evaluation on the topic, not to mention[b] constructive[/b]. I would agree that many of your points support my experience very well. In my experience the low bounce blade is superior on certain shots or misses like a slightly thin miss or picking a shot off of hardpan. Both of these shots I may have at least once in a round and thus may equate to a shot saved every now and then.

What you quoted in bold is very insightful. I think some people may be stuck on the term "forgiving" meaning only the size of the sweetspot and are making arguments based on solely that fact. If we expand the definition of forgiving to atypical shots on the course, then a blade may be more forgiving under that definition.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Splitter' timestamp='1399623991' post='9261871']
These justification threads are great. It's always "this isn't about me, I just want to help the golf community". But, if you realy read them, it's consistently just justification for playing the club of their choice. You don't need justification guys. If blades work for you, I think that is great!

The issue with self justification is that it turns into group justification which leads to all sorts of "feelings" that get espoused as facts.

Golf is about feel. Feel directly impacts performance. The problem with feel is that it is *extremely* difficult to quantify.

The grip, shaft (waggle, backswing, transition, downswing, impact , through), head impact (toe, heel, high, low), turf interaction, etc, etc.. Etc.. It's ALL feel.

IMHO some guys with average swings are lucky enough to find a set of blade like irons where most of the stars line up for them, THE COMBO PLAYS TO THEIR MISS and the feel and play is there. You have found a combo that fits YOUR miss. Congrats (Really!). And because, with that set of iron nirvana, suddenly blades are great and forgiveness is hype. I literally can't count the number if times I read in these threads that CB forgiveness is hype. It blows my mind when I see that. No congrats for that.

I have hit thousands of balls myself with everything from blades to SFHSGIS (Super Freakin Huge SGI Shovels). Maybe I am just extremely talented, but for some magical reason, I can feel a mishit in SGIs *and* blades. Blades hurt more, but I can still tell where my miss is on the shovels. Hint: I'm not extremely talented and my swing sucks but we can all feel a miss. Maybe some of us can translate that feel with both a blade and an SGI? A more pronounced clang does not mean misses can only be felt with blades tho...

But in the real world, *for most people*, those SGI misses go longer and straighter. I have LOL as the ball clanked off the toe to travel 150 yards and land next to the pin. But people on the internet want to call it hype?

The real proof is in the sales though. Walk into ANY store and ask the fitters what clubs come back. The majority are blades. Joe Sixpack reads these posts or has a buddy who found a blade that worked for him and gets convinced he can find the magic as well. He doesn't find the magic because bad swings on blades are punished more and unless he finds that unicorn shaft/head combo that fits his miss, he's screwed.

Fitters don't put player in CBs because of hype. They put players into them because they watch set after set of blades come back. Now, do those returns cause bias in some fitters that lead to a guy that could play a blade never getting to try one? Sure.

That said, If CB forgiveness was hype everyone would be playing blades. Every guy I know tries them. And many have owned more than one fitted set. We ALL want to play them. They look better and feel AWESOME on good hits. But if blades really were forgiving and easy as posters want us to believe, NOTHING could stop the average human ego driven sports fanatic male from playing them. NOTHING. Why? Because we all want to FREEKING play blades!,

I'm genuinely happy some guys have found blades that fit them. I'm even openly jealous. I even know how you feel because i play a 3W that a golfWRX review labeled "for players only", yet I hit it wonderfully. I would love to have a set of MPs in my bag. But after years of experience, I know better.

And, I am just so tired of theses unicorn blade players claiming that because of their corner case, the thousands of guys playing CBs should be switching to blades. I'm tired of using my SGIs to beat guys with blades only to have them tell me how much better I would be if I just gave blades a chance. They BEG me to hit their irons to prove that I should be playing blades. So I smack their blade down the fairway, it goes straight but lands 15 yards short because I missed it and blade guy is telling me "see, you CAN play blades!!!"

"Ya, I'll go look into them" I say.

Can't we all just enjoy what we play without useless justification threads?
[/quote]

Splitter I am not going to respond to all of your points and you may have some constructive ones in there somewhere but based on your main point I don't even want to have a rational discussion with you. I apologize if I am interpreting it incorrectly but you are essentially stating that I am trying to uselessly justify now, 7 years later, and after simply playing golf the way I like to, and deciding one bored night with a lot of time on my hands being sick of reading negative blades vs CB threads, and then typing such a long story, and then simply sharing that as an experience to benefit others as a nice story as my justification to play blades for people I do not know personally and do not know me personally. I think this is what I get from it but I'm sorry if that's not correct.

I have stated why I wrote this. I am truly sorry that you think I'm lying. It is clear you won't be convinced otherwise. I'm so sorry I wasted your time to come in here and read all my bull so that I feel better about my blades, even though I don't know you. [b]Please accept my humble apology [/b]for wasting all of your time.

[bladehunter]

looks like im late to the party!......I just have to ask when the elections for Blade police captain where held? Startzel won by a landslide I assume! No seriously why on earth do you care what irons someone plays so much?

Very nice write up by the OP but I will agree with some and say the MP60 is one of my favorite CB designs and I have a set in black oxide I haven't reshafted yet. That being said the reason I love them so much is that they are narrow sole and small just like the MP32 their cousin... But you could say that about any "good" players cavity ....like titleist 690cb 695cb 990 990b 962 962b 710 712 714cb etc etc .....those all compare to any MB out there... no more forgiveness and play quite nicely... What some are confusing is what qualifies as a "players CB" ....Very few tour guys are playing anything more GI that an AP2.... you can name a couple im sure but most are Ping staffers and the rest are on the champions tour... Im not saying that to make any one here mad..Just stating fact... people spout off that "tour guys are playing SGI and GI clubs " all the time but it really isn't as true as all that. Unless your counting bubbas custom irons as GI or phils 1 apex 3 iron or ? that argument though is a stupid one because why should any of us be comparing ourselves to tour guys?
we play for fun ...some get fun from lower scores, some from being outside and having a smoke while talking to friends on the course..and some like me love being quiet , sometimes alone and playing a forged iron (I own many sets all different makes and ages) I would not go as far as to proclaim that a MB made me a "better" player 100%..BUT it certainly hasn't made my scores rise.... I play at least 3 times a week and my cap has stayed the same for last 6 months... That's with a 2007 callaway x forged set, titleist ZB combo set, Mizuno MP60 and mizuno mp68..... all played relatively equal rounds....last point of this post is ......Do you honestly think that anyone would play an iron that the knew for sure was costing them 5 strokes on the course? I don't know anyone who would....



edit---- question for Mr startzel....Ill ask again ...what MB or blade iron have you demoed, tried, owned, hit etc , and why did it not suit your swing or taste? Please let us know specifically what model and we may shed some light on why you didn't like it as most of us have hoed almost every set known...

[Splitter]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399625104' post='9261897']
[quote name='Splitter' timestamp='1399623991' post='9261871']
These justification threads are great. It's always "this isn't about me, I just want to help the golf community". But, if you realy read them, it's consistently just justification for playing the club of their choice. You don't need justification guys. If blades work for you, I think that is great!

The issue with self justification is that it turns into group justification which leads to all sorts of "feelings" that get espoused as facts.

Golf is about feel. Feel directly impacts performance. The problem with feel is that it is *extremely* difficult to quantify.

The grip, shaft (waggle, backswing, transition, downswing, impact , through), head impact (toe, heel, high, low), turf interaction, etc, etc.. Etc.. It's ALL feel.

IMHO some guys with average swings are lucky enough to find a set of blade like irons where most of the stars line up for them, THE COMBO PLAYS TO THEIR MISS and the feel and play is there. You have found a combo that fits YOUR miss. Congrats (Really!). And because, with that set of iron nirvana, suddenly blades are great and forgiveness is hype. I literally can't count the number if times I read in these threads that CB forgiveness is hype. It blows my mind when I see that. No congrats for that.

I have hit thousands of balls myself with everything from blades to SFHSGIS (Super Freakin Huge SGI Shovels). Maybe I am just extremely talented, but for some magical reason, I can feel a mishit in SGIs *and* blades. Blades hurt more, but I can still tell where my miss is on the shovels. Hint: I'm not extremely talented and my swing sucks but we can all feel a miss. Maybe some of us can translate that feel with both a blade and an SGI? A more pronounced clang does not mean misses can only be felt with blades tho...

But in the real world, *for most people*, those SGI misses go longer and straighter. I have LOL as the ball clanked off the toe to travel 150 yards and land next to the pin. But people on the internet want to call it hype?

The real proof is in the sales though. Walk into ANY store and ask the fitters what clubs come back. The majority are blades. Joe Sixpack reads these posts or has a buddy who found a blade that worked for him and gets convinced he can find the magic as well. He doesn't find the magic because bad swings on blades are punished more and unless he finds that unicorn shaft/head combo that fits his miss, he's screwed.

Fitters don't put player in CBs because of hype. They put players into them because they watch set after set of blades come back. Now, do those returns cause bias in some fitters that lead to a guy that could play a blade never getting to try one? Sure.

That said, If CB forgiveness was hype everyone would be playing blades. Every guy I know tries them. And many have owned more than one fitted set. We ALL want to play them. They look better and feel AWESOME on good hits. But if blades really were forgiving and easy as posters want us to believe, NOTHING could stop the average human ego driven sports fanatic male from playing them. NOTHING. Why? Because we all want to FREEKING play blades!,

I'm genuinely happy some guys have found blades that fit them. I'm even openly jealous. I even know how you feel because i play a 3W that a golfWRX review labeled "for players only", yet I hit it wonderfully. I would love to have a set of MPs in my bag. But after years of experience, I know better.

And, I am just so tired of theses unicorn blade players claiming that because of their corner case, the thousands of guys playing CBs should be switching to blades. I'm tired of using my SGIs to beat guys with blades only to have them tell me how much better I would be if I just gave blades a chance. They BEG me to hit their irons to prove that I should be playing blades. So I smack their blade down the fairway, it goes straight but lands 15 yards short because I missed it and blade guy is telling me "see, you CAN play blades!!!"

"Ya, I'll go look into them" I say.

Can't we all just enjoy what we play without useless justification threads?
[/quote]

Splitter I am not going to respond to all of your points and you may have some constructive ones in there somewhere but based on your main point I don't even want to have a rational discussion with you. I apologize if I am interpreting it incorrectly but you are essentially stating that I am trying to uselessly justify now, 7 years later, and after simply playing golf the way I like to, and deciding one bored night with a lot of time on my hands being sick of reading negative blades vs CB threads, and then typing such a long story, and then simply sharing that as an experience to benefit others as a nice story as my justification to play blades for people I do not know personally and do not know me personally. I think this is what I get from it but I'm sorry if that's not correct.

I have stated why I wrote this. I am truly sorry that you think I'm lying. It is clear you won't be convinced otherwise. I'm so sorry I wasted your time to come in here and read all my bull so that I feel better about my blades, even though I don't know you. [b]Please accept my humble apology [/b]for wasting all of your time.
[/quote]

Apology accepted but not needed. I'm a big boy and can stop reading when I want.

No worries about not reading and understanding my ginormous post before responding. I don't expect 90% of forum users to actually read what's written past about 4 lines, much less 40... It is what it is... I just got on a roll. Feel free to continue to espouse your feelings as facts. None of my post was going to change that anyway.

[AntLockyer]

I wouldn't have thought the difference between the MP67 and the MP60 was worth more than a shot a round for a single figure handicapper anyway. MP60 aren't exactly G25s

[Bad9]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399549570' post='9255517']
Where is the data?
[/quote]

I have the same question. I see a well presented opinion of one persons feel but no data.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Splitter' timestamp='1399649843' post='9263523']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399625104' post='9261897']
[quote name='Splitter' timestamp='1399623991' post='9261871']
These justification threads are great. It's always "this isn't about me, I just want to help the golf community". But, if you realy read them, it's consistently just justification for playing the club of their choice. You don't need justification guys. If blades work for you, I think that is great!

The issue with self justification is that it turns into group justification which leads to all sorts of "feelings" that get espoused as facts.

Golf is about feel. Feel directly impacts performance. The problem with feel is that it is *extremely* difficult to quantify.

The grip, shaft (waggle, backswing, transition, downswing, impact , through), head impact (toe, heel, high, low), turf interaction, etc, etc.. Etc.. It's ALL feel.

IMHO some guys with average swings are lucky enough to find a set of blade like irons where most of the stars line up for them, THE COMBO PLAYS TO THEIR MISS and the feel and play is there. You have found a combo that fits YOUR miss. Congrats (Really!). And because, with that set of iron nirvana, suddenly blades are great and forgiveness is hype. I literally can't count the number if times I read in these threads that CB forgiveness is hype. It blows my mind when I see that. No congrats for that.

I have hit thousands of balls myself with everything from blades to SFHSGIS (Super Freakin Huge SGI Shovels). Maybe I am just extremely talented, but for some magical reason, I can feel a mishit in SGIs *and* blades. Blades hurt more, but I can still tell where my miss is on the shovels. Hint: I'm not extremely talented and my swing sucks but we can all feel a miss. Maybe some of us can translate that feel with both a blade and an SGI? A more pronounced clang does not mean misses can only be felt with blades tho...

But in the real world, *for most people*, those SGI misses go longer and straighter. I have LOL as the ball clanked off the toe to travel 150 yards and land next to the pin. But people on the internet want to call it hype?

The real proof is in the sales though. Walk into ANY store and ask the fitters what clubs come back. The majority are blades. Joe Sixpack reads these posts or has a buddy who found a blade that worked for him and gets convinced he can find the magic as well. He doesn't find the magic because bad swings on blades are punished more and unless he finds that unicorn shaft/head combo that fits his miss, he's screwed.

Fitters don't put player in CBs because of hype. They put players into them because they watch set after set of blades come back. Now, do those returns cause bias in some fitters that lead to a guy that could play a blade never getting to try one? Sure.

That said, If CB forgiveness was hype everyone would be playing blades. Every guy I know tries them. And many have owned more than one fitted set. We ALL want to play them. They look better and feel AWESOME on good hits. But if blades really were forgiving and easy as posters want us to believe, NOTHING could stop the average human ego driven sports fanatic male from playing them. NOTHING. Why? Because we all want to FREEKING play blades!,

I'm genuinely happy some guys have found blades that fit them. I'm even openly jealous. I even know how you feel because i play a 3W that a golfWRX review labeled "for players only", yet I hit it wonderfully. I would love to have a set of MPs in my bag. But after years of experience, I know better.

And, I am just so tired of theses unicorn blade players claiming that because of their corner case, the thousands of guys playing CBs should be switching to blades. I'm tired of using my SGIs to beat guys with blades only to have them tell me how much better I would be if I just gave blades a chance. They BEG me to hit their irons to prove that I should be playing blades. So I smack their blade down the fairway, it goes straight but lands 15 yards short because I missed it and blade guy is telling me "see, you CAN play blades!!!"

"Ya, I'll go look into them" I say.

Can't we all just enjoy what we play without useless justification threads?
[/quote]

Splitter I am not going to respond to all of your points and you may have some constructive ones in there somewhere but based on your main point I don't even want to have a rational discussion with you. I apologize if I am interpreting it incorrectly but you are essentially stating that I am trying to uselessly justify now, 7 years later, and after simply playing golf the way I like to, and deciding one bored night with a lot of time on my hands being sick of reading negative blades vs CB threads, and then typing such a long story, and then simply sharing that as an experience to benefit others as a nice story as my justification to play blades for people I do not know personally and do not know me personally. I think this is what I get from it but I'm sorry if that's not correct.

I have stated why I wrote this. I am truly sorry that you think I'm lying. It is clear you won't be convinced otherwise. I'm so sorry I wasted your time to come in here and read all my bull so that I feel better about my blades, even though I don't know you. [b]Please accept my humble apology [/b]for wasting all of your time.
[/quote]

Apology accepted but not needed. I'm a big boy and can stop reading when I want.

No worries about not reading and understanding my ginormous post before responding. I don't expect 90% of forum users to actually read what's written past about 4 lines, much less 40... It is what it is... I just got on a roll. Feel free to continue to espouse your feelings as facts. None of my post was going to change that anyway.
[/quote]

Actually I did read some of your ginormous comments and felt you had some items that would add value to the discussion here. You have some personal real world experience with using both SGI, GI, and blade clubs and that is the intent of this thread which is to discuss your own real world experience on the topic, which is vastly different than mine.

The issue I have with your post (and what ruined all of the other insightful information contained therein) is that you assumed that my personal experience with the subject at hand was simply my justification for purchasing blades 7 years ago. I meant everything in my original post and subsequent ones with utmost sincerity. And it is implied that your personal experience had more validity than mine or any other peoples personal experiences that contradicted yours. I mean no disrespect to you but I took it as very insulting.

I would like to leave you with some thoughts: there may be others that have tried every type of club just like you but the may have had a different result on which one allowed them to score the lowest. Is this not possible? Is it possible that somebody has picked up a blade and started using it and finding it either a) didn't impact their ability to score or b) found that it actually allowed them to score even better? How come you feel your own experience (which I am glad you can back with your own personal trials with so many clubs...as I can too with my side by side comparison for 7 years...) is an absolute truth over other people's?

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1399651716' post='9263709']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399549570' post='9255517']
Where is the data?
[/quote]

I have the same question. I see a well presented opinion of one persons feel but no data.
[/quote]

I'm sorry the title was misleading and I have clarified my definition of data to Startzel in an earlier post. I also have a disclaimer section that explains my own self admitted flaws in this endeavor. This was not an intended experiment but if it were I would have taken a lot more statistics.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1399651285' post='9263669']
I wouldn't have thought the difference between the MP67 and the MP60 was worth more than a shot a round for a single figure handicapper anyway. MP60 aren't exactly G25s
[/quote]

Nor were there any differences (in score) when I was a 16 index.

[bladehunter]

wheres he data? ...same question could be asked of the flip side of the argument. Not wheres your opinion mind you...wheres the Data?

[AntLockyer]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399652306' post='9263775']
[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1399651285' post='9263669']
I wouldn't have thought the difference between the MP67 and the MP60 was worth more than a shot a round for a single figure handicapper anyway. MP60 aren't exactly G25s
[/quote]

Nor were there any differences (in score) when I was a 16 index.
[/quote]

What I mean to say is there is hardly any difference between the 2 clubs. I'm surprised you are surprised.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1399653897' post='9263919']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399652306' post='9263775']
[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1399651285' post='9263669']
I wouldn't have thought the difference between the MP67 and the MP60 was worth more than a shot a round for a single figure handicapper anyway. MP60 aren't exactly G25s
[/quote]

Nor were there any differences (in score) when I was a 16 index.
[/quote]

What I mean to say is there is hardly any difference between the 2 clubs. I'm surprised you are surprised.
[/quote]
Mizuno is clearly marketing the two types for different skill levels. Seems to me they and all other oems of players CBs have been duping us all along then if your statement is true. Also there are many mizzy combo set players out there that play the 60s in their long irons for the added help. They are either wrong or they know there is a significant difference to them.

I never said I was surprised.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399654559' post='9263981']
[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1399653897' post='9263919']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399652306' post='9263775']
[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1399651285' post='9263669']
I wouldn't have thought the difference between the MP67 and the MP60 was worth more than a shot a round for a single figure handicapper anyway. MP60 aren't exactly G25s
[/quote]

Nor were there any differences (in score) when I was a 16 index.
[/quote]

What I mean to say is there is hardly any difference between the 2 clubs. I'm surprised you are surprised.
[/quote]
Mizuno is clearly marketing the two types for different skill levels.
[/quote]

2 different SKILL levels. Yes, but only very slightly.

The guys that said they were apples to apples is a lot closer to being accurate than your post is to having any value other than to hear yourself "talk".

There's another 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

What a waste of cyber ink,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[isaacbm]

So yesterday I played heritage point in Calgary from 6650 yards. I have s55 ping irons. I hit 7 shots with them. I shot 73.

How much would blades hurt me? How much would g25's help?

This is where I get confused with this whole blade/G.I. opinion.

Of those 7 shots, 2 led to bogies and one led to a 2 putt birdie.

The bogies were both on shots that I completely flushed. One was 12 feet left of the hole. It bounced into a weird lie and I pitched to 7 feet and missed. The other was flushed 30 feet past the hole on the wrong tier and I 3 whipped after missing a 3 footer.

Based on this particular round there's no way that any sane person could determine whether or not using S 55 hurt me or helped me compared to using G 25's.

[isaacbm]

As recently as last week I had somebody tell me that using S 55's was costing me 3 to 5 shots per round even though I'm a plus 2.how on earth are they coming up with this crazy number of five shots.

I often play rounds with my mid handicap friends and they don't want to play the tips so we play from 6500-6700 yards I rarely use my S 55's more than eight times in a round. From 7100 yards I usually use my irons approximately three or four more times.

I think people seriously misunderstand how important hitting good irons is too good score it's more important that you're good with wedges that you don't three putt and that you don't hit your driver off the golf course.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1399656738' post='9264159']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399654559' post='9263981']
[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1399653897' post='9263919']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399652306' post='9263775']
[quote name='AntLockyer' timestamp='1399651285' post='9263669']
I wouldn't have thought the difference between the MP67 and the MP60 was worth more than a shot a round for a single figure handicapper anyway. MP60 aren't exactly G25s
[/quote]

Nor were there any differences (in score) when I was a 16 index.
[/quote]

What I mean to say is there is hardly any difference between the 2 clubs. I'm surprised you are surprised.
[/quote]
Mizuno is clearly marketing the two types for different skill levels.
[/quote]

2 different SKILL levels. Yes, but only very slightly.

The guys that said they were apples to apples is a lot closer to being accurate than your post is to having any value other than to hear yourself "talk".

There's another 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

What a waste of cyber ink,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
[/quote]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and maybe it will save someone else some time reading all of my malarkey, if they trust your opinion, but to clarify, I've stated my reasons for posting this thread in my original and subsequent posts. None of which have anything to do with wanting to hear myself "talk". I have been a member of this excellent forum for years now because there are still contributors that want to constructively share information, and[b] I post with the intent to either share my own personal opinion and experience* or to jest with another member[/b]. That is my only motivation for posting here on any topic. You can believe this or not.

*I thought one of the purposes of this forum was to have some insight on another's playing experiences if they are ever in doubt about something (their swing, club choice, where to golf, etc) and when I was one of those people in my decision to purchase a set of blades when my handicap was clearly not in the recommended range, I sought the opinions of others here. Since that benefitted me tremendously, seeing the very diverse opinions (and not much facts) on the matter, I was hoping my post would help someone else on the fence. I wouldn't care what they purchased in the end. Even in this thread I am not trying to convince anyone to play blades or CBs. I'm simply sharing my information that may be contrary to some else's. It is clearly different than some other's but there are also a few posters here that it is similar to.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1399659716' post='9264417']
As recently as last week I had somebody tell me that using S 55's was costing me 3 to 5 shots per round even though I'm a plus 2.how on earth are they coming up with this crazy number of five shots.

I often play rounds with my mid handicap friends and they don't want to play the tips so we play from 6500-6700 yards I rarely use my S 55's more than eight times in a round. From 7100 yards I usually use my irons approximately three or four more times.

I think people seriously misunderstand how important hitting good irons is too good score it's more important that you're good with wedges that you don't three putt and that you don't hit your driver off the golf course.
[/quote]

Excellent points. I was wondering in your golf journey down to +2 if you ever were at a level where the club mattered or looking back whether you think it would have mattered?

Again thank you for some insightful posts and moving the discussion to specific explanations as to why theres little difference to some people. You last comment about keeping the driver in play hits home with me and is probably the biggest reason im stuck as a mid capper.

[bladehunter]

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1399639203' post='9262351']
looks like im late to the party!......I just have to ask when the elections for Blade police captain where held? Startzel won by a landslide I assume! No seriously why on earth do you care what irons someone plays so much?

Very nice write up by the OP but I will agree with some and say the MP60 is one of my favorite CB designs and I have a set in black oxide I haven't reshafted yet. That being said the reason I love them so much is that they are narrow sole and small just like the MP32 their cousin... But you could say that about any "good" players cavity ....like titleist 690cb 695cb 990 990b 962 962b 710 712 714cb etc etc .....those all compare to any MB out there... no more forgiveness and play quite nicely... What some are confusing is what qualifies as a "players CB" ....Very few tour guys are playing anything more GI that an AP2.... you can name a couple im sure but most are Ping staffers and the rest are on the champions tour... Im not saying that to make any one here mad..Just stating fact... people spout off that "tour guys are playing SGI and GI clubs " all the time but it really isn't as true as all that. Unless your counting bubbas custom irons as GI or phils 1 apex 3 iron or ? that argument though is a stupid one because why should any of us be comparing ourselves to tour guys?
we play for fun ...some get fun from lower scores, some from being outside and having a smoke while talking to friends on the course..and some like me love being quiet , sometimes alone and playing a forged iron (I own many sets all different makes and ages) I would not go as far as to proclaim that a MB made me a "better" player 100%..BUT it certainly hasn't made my scores rise.... I play at least 3 times a week and my cap has stayed the same for last 6 months... That's with a 2007 callaway x forged set, titleist ZB combo set, Mizuno MP60 and mizuno mp68..... all played relatively equal rounds....last point of this post is ......Do you honestly think that anyone would play an iron that the knew for sure was costing them 5 strokes on the course? I don't know anyone who would....



edit---- question for Mr startzel....Ill ask again ...what MB or blade iron have you demoed, tried, owned, hit etc , and why did it not suit your swing or taste? Please let us know specifically what model and we may shed some light on why you didn't like it as most of us have hoed almost every set known...
[/quote]





apparently caused the crickets to start chirping when this question is asked...Hmmmm seems the argument is getting thinner all the time...

[cloozoe]

[color=#282828]"Do you honestly think that anyone would play an iron that the knew for sure was costing them 5 strokes on the course? I don't know anyone who would..."[/color]

[color=#282828]Well, now you do, although technically I guess we don't know each other. Hi. I'm Cloozoe.[/color]

[color=#282828]What do I care about 5 strokes. No money involved. I save my ego for more important pursuits. What if every good shot I hit with the +5 irons was pure sensual joy? If I really wanted to worry about strokes, I'd bag some 48" long, ultra high MOI monstrosity of a putter and anchor it to my chest a la Adam Scott, but he needs to make a living from golf and if I had to I'd starve, so I'd rather miss a few with my pretty old Mills than bag such a thing. I fish dry flies rather than nymphs and I'm sure that costs me some fish, too. And if you really want to visit la-la land, go check out the guys who hit persimmon drivers, or play hickory shafted clubs. They're out there.[/color]

[color=#282828]In short, it takes all kinds and, as my kids say, you should never "yuch" somebody else's "yum"s.[/color]

[isaacbm]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399665565' post='9264881']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1399659716' post='9264417']
As recently as last week I had somebody tell me that using S 55's was costing me 3 to 5 shots per round even though I'm a plus 2.how on earth are they coming up with this crazy number of five shots.

I often play rounds with my mid handicap friends and they don't want to play the tips so we play from 6500-6700 yards I rarely use my S 55's more than eight times in a round. From 7100 yards I usually use my irons approximately three or four more times.

I think people seriously misunderstand how important hitting good irons is too good score it's more important that you're good with wedges that you don't three putt and that you don't hit your driver off the golf course.
[/quote]

Excellent points. I was wondering in your golf journey down to +2 if you ever were at a level where the club mattered or looking back whether you think it would have mattered?

Again thank you for some insightful posts and moving the discussion to specific explanations as to why theres little difference to some people. You last comment about keeping the driver in play hits home with me and is probably the biggest reason im stuck as a mid capper.
[/quote]

I don't remember it mattering... I've been below scratch since I was 14 (26 years ago) so the memory could be hazy. I was pretty much happy to have any clubs at the time. None of my irons matched. I started with a half set and some of those got broken and then replace with something entirely unmatching.

I've just never really thought of a wedge being part of the "set" of irons. So to me, I only use my irons mostly as damage control on holes that i'm not hitting wedges or pitches (with wedges) into the greens. I feel the same way about hybrids and fairway woods into greens. These clubs are pretty much just "try not to screw this up too bad" clubs for me. My idea of "screw up" might be higher than some people's but still, I just don't use 3-9 iron more than 10 times per round pretty much at any time. So even if a Blade is 2-4 yards shorter on a miss with a 150 yard shot, what does that equate to? Say an average of 2% that means even if I mishit all of my 10 iron shots each round, I'm losing 1/5 of one stroke per round for choosing to use blades.

I realize the math is a little silly but I think the point is pretty clear. It doesn't matter pretty much at all for me.


Want to keep driver in play more? Cut down to 43, swing weight D5 with board of a shaft and 12-13 degrees loft. You might lose 5-10 yards but I guarantee you'll immediately hit more fairways.

[Mitchell]

Startzel,
Please explain in detail, based on your personal experiences,not based upon Darrell Survey numbers, why you are such an advocate for use of cavity backs for all players and seem to feel it is totally illogical for golfers to play blades.