DeNinny's Blade vs CB Experiment and Data

[DeNinny]

Preface

I have both posted and avoided posting in many of these threads. I apologize in advance if this is a re-hash to some that have already read my story in other threads but I feel it is important to share because I do feel I am very qualified to comment on this topic based on a lot of data and years at it. I'm also trying, albeit with known futility, to start a civil thread on the topic. I want the one MB vs CB thread that does not degenerate into a war. I'm not holding my breath though. Although my original intent was just to have two sets of clubs - one to play in the summer and for serious tournaments and the other as a backup to play in the winter and/or when travelling - the end result was an experiment with some objective and some subjective data.

 

I hope some can benefit from reading this too. To those unsure about using blades, I encourage you to try if you want to deep down and not get discouraged from the (strong) opinions of others. To those that are convinced that I'm full of $#it and think a blade is only for those with some game, I truly hope to open your eyes to a different perspective. I'm not here to prove you wrong, I'm here to prove that you cannot make an absolute claim. If you do want to argue with me and try to prove me wrong on my conclusions, I ask you provide some experimental data yourself. In that regard, note that I have hundreds of rounds and thousands of range buckets of data to prove my point. I hope you can back your own statements and opinions with similar actual real world data and not some tour stat that is typically that 75% of the tour plays CBs or that a CB has a bigger sweetspot.

 

Executive Summary

In my own experience at various levels of skill, ranging from about 16 handicap down to a 7 over about 7 years now, I shot the same scores regardless of using a blade or CB iron. The type of club made little difference to my handicap on average. My all time low of 77 was shot with blades but I broke 80 about a handful of times with either type. A blade is the superior club for practicing and providing feedback on my swing and also precision shotmaking and working the ball. I can hit exactly the shot I envision with a blade provided I put the intended swing on it. A CB is the superior club in forgiveness and that is all. Some misses were not as bad as with a blade. By far a blade is my preferred type of iron to play simply because there is no better feeling in golf than puring one. In this regard, there is no contest. Lastly, neither type of club helps when you put a terrible swing on it. The result is poor regardless.

 

Experimental Setup

MP-67 blades. MP-60 CBs. Both sets were PW-4i most of the time. I switch between a 3i and 7w every now and then but was consistent in this regard with either set. If I pulled the 3i, I did it with both sets. Both sets had original Royal Precision Rifle 5.0 shafts. Both sets had the same type of grips. Both sets had the same lofts and lies. Over 90% of the rounds were at the same golf course. The woods, driver, and putter were different in each set.

 

During the summer I would play most rounds with the blades and during the winter and when I travelled I would use the CBs. That said, this was not an absolute. I would often miss using my blades in the winter and would use them for a few rounds and also in the summer when my blades weren't behaving or I was just bored, I would use the CBs for a few rounds. This helped me remove or negate any weather or seasonal bias in my data and conclusions.

 

I played this way (and am still today) for the last 7 years and playing both Saturday and Sunday nearly every weekend year round. This equates to 728 total number of rounds (2 x 52 x 7) for which to base my conclusions on and also thousands of range balls for added data. I was about a 16 index when I had both sets to start (I had the blades about a year before I bought the CBs) and then my lowest index was down to a 7 but now is about 10.

 

Detailed Chronology and Results

In the early years, I really struggled with 5, 4, and 3 irons with either set, but the blade 4 and 3 were nearly impossible for me to hit consistently. I really felt and learned the pain of skulling a blade with a steel shaft in 38 F temps. I went through phases of anger, frustration, and second guessing my club selection. I almost caved and gave up and bought some SGIs, but ego, budget, and moreso my addiction to the feel of puring a blade kept me at it. As my index dropped from 16 down to about 13 during this time, it was consistent on average between the sets. I shot the same scores on average. My score and index improvements were from regular practice at all aspects of my game but a lot more focus, relative to later years, on short game.

 

In the middle years, I realized the 3i was costing me strokes with either set and so I switched to a 7w in both, with some experimentation with an MP-FliHi 3i that didn't last long. I became comfortable with my 5 and 4 irons. I started learning specific things to work on with my swing via golfwrx, reading books, and golf channel. I got better and my index got below 10 for the first time ever. Once again, I shot the same scores on average regardless of which set I used. I continued to love my blades the most because again my addiction to pured shots was exacerbated with hitting more of them as I got better. I fed my own addiction. I also started trying to work the ball and both practice and play draws/fades intentionally, with limited success. I learned that a blade is better in this regard. My CB shots did not react as much to attempted draws/fades. I also learned that the ball will stop and check up better with a blade and thus you have to allow for slightly more roll with a CB. Ultimately I understood and proved to myself that the design of the blade allows for the high precision shot, when struck correctly.

 

In the last few years, I started putting the 3i back into the back and only switched to the 7w based on course and weather conditions. I became confident with all the irons. My index reached the lowest at 7, but intentional swing changes, less practice time, and less motivation (for personal reasons) resulted in my index climbing back to 10-11 range. I realized that practice must be sustained on all aspects of the game in order to sustain your skill level, let alone improve it. The better you get does not mean you can practice less. I also narrowed my swing issues to a few glaring ones that I believed limit my game. In trying to fix them, I went through setbacks. Once again, none of this had anything to do with my iron set. I shot the same scores. I reconfirmed all of my previous conclusions. I also learned and proved that the higher bounce and wider sole of the CB was truly better in wet (soft ground) conditions and the blade was better out of the rough and also better when missing it slightly thin.

 

Final Thoughts and Disclaimers

I did not keep specific score statistics between the sets, so I cannot provide the truly scientific means and standard deviations. I'm an engineer but not that anal in proving this experiment. I can only subjectively say my scores were the same, but again I feel I have more real world data than most. There may be a 1-2 stroke difference in there but that is all, if any. I doubt it though.

 

I also cannot remove the bias of using different woods, driver, and putter. I can subjectively say these did not play into the results and conclusions but cannot scientifically prove it. I will say they weren't that different in technology generation and manufacturer. The woods and driver were mostly TEEs and the putters were both Odyssey mallets.

 

I hope you have enjoyed this and can benefit from it. I have benefitted from this forum and want to be a contributor as well. Again I ask that any arguments or attempts to find flaws in my conclusions be backed with similar real world data or at a minimum an admission that it is an opinion and not fact.

 

Thank you and let the games begin. (or not)

[dkelly1269]

Nice write up, I appreciate your time and effort. I have to agree that the type of iron I play rarely has much impact on my score. My scores are dependent on my driving, short game and putting in that order. I have found that I can lose confidence in my ball striking at times playing blades. Scoring isn't much different but the frustration of not playing clean gets to me.

[Mitchell]

Admirable that you would attempt to start this conversation. My take on this has been that offset, vertical C.O.G., blade length, and turf interaction as a result of bounce/sole grind tend to greatly influence my particular choices. As an example, I have played Titleist 962b irons with s400 for years, but decided that wanted to give Titleist 712mb irons with same set-up a trial period in my bag due to promising results from initial testing. What I found was that turf interaction was better for me in 962b and I was better able to control trajectory due to reduced offset and higher vertical C.O.G. in the 962b as compared to the 712mb. My point is simply that even within similar categories, many factors determine player's ability to strike an iron effectively, not just if club possesses a cavity or not.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='dkelly1269' timestamp='1399525059' post='9254949']
Nice write up, I appreciate your time and effort. I have to agree that the type of iron I play rarely has much impact on my score. My scores are dependent on my driving, short game and putting in that order. I have found that I can lose confidence in my ball striking at times playing blades. Scoring isn't much different but the frustration of not playing clean gets to me.
[/quote]

Thank you for the kind words, fellow 2006 golfwrx alum ( ). Oh yeah I've been there too regarding frustration. Yet another reason to have the CBs and another full set in general. You gotta make your gamers get jealous and come back to you by going to the forgiving set for a while. I think the frustration people have with blades is what creates their bias against using them. They tell you the brutal truth about the current state of your game and some simply don't want to face it, which is fine and their perogative.

[Oldplayer]

Thanks for putting the effort into your post and research.
I have also done extensive research on irons (read hoing) over the last 7 or 8 years. I have compared everything from SGI to oldschool blades. I have been playing over 20 years and work hard at my swing and the game. Age has been no barrier as I am not far from 60 and carry a 2 cap.
I largely agree with your findings but would offer that your comparison is a limited one.
In my experience the mp60 model is very blade like the way it plays and the difference between that and the mp67 in terms of forgivness would be marginal.
Nevertheless your findings do have credibility.

[Swingingk]

I found that KBS Tour in stiff flex works the best for me. I happen to have Scratch SB-1 heads on the ends of them but I'm pretty sure just about any head of the same weight would be fine.

I've been known to sneak out to the garage after my wife goes to bed just to look at them and yes - fondle them even. I've yet to fondle an SGI iron. :-)

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Oldplayer' timestamp='1399526440' post='9254999']
Thanks for putting the effort into your post and research.
I have also done extensive research on irons (read hoing) over the last 7 or 8 years. I have compared everything from SGI to oldschool blades. I have been playing over 20 years and work hard at my swing and the game. Age has been no barrier as I am not far from 60 and carry a 2 cap.
I largely agree with your findings but would offer that your comparison is a limited one.
In my experience the mp60 model is very blade like the way it plays and the difference between that and the mp67 in terms of forgivness would be marginal.
Nevertheless your findings do have credibility.
[/quote]

Thanks and I anticipated this comment and cannot dispute it entirely. It is a very valid point. I will say that if the difference is marginal, then why would the manufacturer even differentiate them and offer both types? IIRC, when I bought them the Mizuno website had a comparison chart with different recommended handicap ranges for each type. The MP-60 is clearly for the lesser skilled player (which I was much closer to at the time than the 67's criteria), and so in theory, according to Mizuno, that lesser skilled player would not score as well with the mp-67s. In my opinion the marginal difference should still be significant, but I cannot prove it. Additionally I would have expected that there be some significant difference in scores at my higher index (14-16) early years and only later become insignificant as I got better and closer to both criteria.

[Oldplayer]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399527591' post='9255037']
[quote name='Oldplayer' timestamp='1399526440' post='9254999']
Thanks for putting the effort into your post and research.
I have also done extensive research on irons (read hoing) over the last 7 or 8 years. I have compared everything from SGI to oldschool blades. I have been playing over 20 years and work hard at my swing and the game. Age has been no barrier as I am not far from 60 and carry a 2 cap.
I largely agree with your findings but would offer that your comparison is a limited one.
In my experience the mp60 model is very blade like the way it plays and the difference between that and the mp67 in terms of forgivness would be marginal.
Nevertheless your findings do have credibility.
[/quote]

Thanks and I anticipated this comment and cannot dispute it entirely. It is a very valid point. I will say that if the difference is marginal, then why would the manufacturer even differentiate them and offer both types? IIRC, when I bought them the Mizuno website had a comparison chart with different recommended handicap ranges for each type. The MP-60 is clearly for the lesser skilled player (which I was much closer to at the time than the 67's criteria), and so in theory, according to Mizuno, that lesser skilled player would not score as well with the mp-67s. In my opinion the marginal difference should still be significant, but I cannot prove it.
[/quote]
I speak of the forgiveness difference as I have played both. The cavity of the 60's is very shallow and IMO the design is strictly in the forged players iron category. Toe shots and thin shots in particular are punished quite harshly. They are very different from say the mx 200 which is also a forged cavity.
The mp 67 have the same design principal as the famously forgiving (for a blade) mp32's. The cut muscle design moves weight lower in the head which makes launch easier and thin shots not as harsh.
I'm not trying to criticize your findings, or be a smartar*e; just pointing out that the irons you compared are actually very similar in playability. Again, I appreciate the time and thought you have put into your research.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Oldplayer' timestamp='1399528704' post='9255077']
I'm not trying to criticize your findings, or be a smartar*e; just pointing out that the irons you compared are actually very similar in playability. Again, I appreciate the time and thought you have put into your research.
[/quote]

I [i][b]apologize profusely[/b][/i] if my response led you to believe that I was offended or I thought you were a smartar*e. On the contrary and that was absolutely not my intent. I merely was giving you my own reasoning to your comment. As I stated, you made a very valid point. Furthermore thanks too for sharing your own experience with SGIs to old school blades. That furthers my own "research".

FYI I forgot to mention earlier that I will respond to everyone's posts to this thread with the utmost respect regardless of the content of it. Just don't insult my family and I'm fine with any and all comments.

[Oldplayer]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399529116' post='9255093']
[quote name='Oldplayer' timestamp='1399528704' post='9255077']
I'm not trying to criticize your findings, or be a smartar*e; just pointing out that the irons you compared are actually very similar in playability. Again, I appreciate the time and thought you have put into your research.
[/quote]

I [i][b]apologize profusely[/b][/i] if my response led you to believe that I was offended or I thought you were a smartar*e. On the contrary and that was absolutely not my intent. I merely was giving you my own reasoning to your comment. As I stated, you made a very valid point. Furthermore thanks too for sharing your own experience with SGIs to old school blades. That furthers my own "research".

FYI I forgot to mention earlier that I will respond to everyone's posts to this thread with the utmost respect regardless of the content of it. Just don't insult my family and I'm fine with any and all comments.
[/quote]
No need to apologize! I absolutely did not take your comment negatively. I was actually concerned that my original response was neither helpful or positive.
In my own research I have found many similarities with your findings. In particular I will shoot very similar scores with any set of irons. Sgi or gi are significantly easier to manage in the long irons but more blade like long irons are certainly doable if you work hard on your swing and produce a sound action.
I can also relate to the addiction of the feel of a flushed shot with a blade. I truly believe i am addicted to that experience. The feel in the hands, looking up and seeing the ball fly in a perfect arc towards the target....... I chase that feeling and nothing can provide that feeling better than a forged blade.
Having said that there is plenty of middle ground. Combo sets are fantastic. From Maxfli A10 tours to Cobra S3 pros, original nike pro combo tours and Hogan FTX. I own them all and love them all.
Also great players cavities can give the sensation of playing a blade with a fair bit of forgiveness. Callaway 2013 X forged are a great modern example. TM300 are a slightly older but a great classic example.
I have been lucky and can afford to indulge my passion. Thanks for adding information to a subject that I am really interested in.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Oldplayer' timestamp='1399530440' post='9255113']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399529116' post='9255093']
[quote name='Oldplayer' timestamp='1399528704' post='9255077']
I'm not trying to criticize your findings, or be a smartar*e; just pointing out that the irons you compared are actually very similar in playability. Again, I appreciate the time and thought you have put into your research.
[/quote]

I [i][b]apologize profusely[/b][/i] if my response led you to believe that I was offended or I thought you were a smartar*e. On the contrary and that was absolutely not my intent. I merely was giving you my own reasoning to your comment. As I stated, you made a very valid point. Furthermore thanks too for sharing your own experience with SGIs to old school blades. That furthers my own "research".

FYI I forgot to mention earlier that I will respond to everyone's posts to this thread with the utmost respect regardless of the content of it. Just don't insult my family and I'm fine with any and all comments.
[/quote]
No need to apologize! I absolutely did not take your comment negatively. I was actually concerned that my original response was neither helpful or positive.
In my own research I have found many similarities with your findings. In particular I will shoot very similar scores with any set of irons. Sgi or gi are significantly easier to manage in the long irons but more blade like long irons are certainly doable if you work hard on your swing and produce a sound action.
I can also relate to the addiction of the feel of a flushed shot with a blade. I truly believe i am addicted to that experience. The feel in the hands, looking up and seeing the ball fly in a perfect arc towards the target....... I chase that feeling and nothing can provide that feeling better than a forged blade.
Having said that there is plenty of middle ground. Combo sets are fantastic. From Maxfli A10 tours to Cobra S3 pros, original nike pro combo tours and Hogan FTX. I own them all and love them all.
Also great players cavities can give the sensation of playing a blade with a fair bit of forgiveness. Callaway 2013 X forged are a great modern example. TM300 are a slightly older but a great classic example.
I have been lucky and can afford to indulge my passion. Thanks for adding information to a subject that I am really interested in.
[/quote]

You have a much better research grant than me (translate: youza ho, biatc#!). LOL I'm just jealous. You're doing post-doc studies and I'm still working on the masters degree on a student loan.

It took me about 5 years but I proved you can dispel the myth about long irons and learn to hit them decent with hard work, and still be a hack. I don't ever regret all my hard range work trying to flush my blade 3i. I've learned a ton in the process of frustration. I care not that a GI club may have been easier in the short run.

In regards to flushing them, yes there's that feeling but also knowledge that the ball is doing exactly what it is supposed to do which is always coupled with that feel. The combination of these two factors as a whole is what cannot be substituted by a CB. Although I love my MP-60s and can stick them just as close as the 67s on straightforward shots, there is simply less precision control on shots where you have to work it and less buttery feel even when struck pure.

[Sean2]

A well thought out, well written post. As you know, I too have gone through something similar. I too agree that while there may be validity to forgiveness, it may also be overly hyped.

My take is a bit different. I didn't take to the blade for aesthetics, or to work the ball, or for feel. I took to the blade simply because I hit it better than the other types of irons. I'm a simple man. :-)

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1399535783' post='9255213']
A well thought out, well written post. As you know, I too have gone through something similar. I too agree that while there may be validity to forgiveness, it may also be overly hyped.

My take is a bit different. I didn't take to the blade for aesthetics, or to work the ball, or for feel. I took to the blade simply because I hit it better than the other types of irons. I'm a simple man. :-)
[/quote]
You'll be back soon enough admitting addiction to that pured feel. Thanks and cya soon.

[Geohans]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1399535783' post='9255213']
A well thought out, well written post. As you know, I too have gone through something similar. I too agree that while there may be validity to forgiveness, it may also be overly hyped.

My take is a bit different. I didn't take to the blade for aesthetics, or to work the ball, or for feel. I took to the blade simply because I hit it better than the other types of irons. I'm a simple man. :-)
[/quote]

But of course feel and aesthetics may be among the reasons you play blades better; As I've said, the anticipation of the feel of a well struck shot can affect the way you execute the shot.

[Rock Chalk Jayhawk]

bet your scores would have been lower with SGIs. :P

[Startzel]

Where is the data?

[ScooterMcTavish]

What really opened my eyes was when I bought my first set of GI/SGI "good" irons, a set of Nickent 3dx Hybrids designed by John Hoeflich. I was like a kid at Christmas when I got these, especially as I thought that my scores would immediately plummet from my scores with my Dunlop 11-piece set.

When my scores started going up, and I continued to either sky or yank hybrid after hybrid, I missed my economy set.

This started a period of ho'ing when I went through 4 sets of irons in two years. I learned just how important shaft flex was. And I ended up with my only set of CBs I currently have in my possession - a 30 year old set of Ping Eye 2s. And now that I was off the marketing train, and golfed better with "old, technologically inferior" clubs, I picked up a set of Wilson Staff FG-17s for a whopping $25 including woods.

What a revelation. I returned to the feeling of a well struck shot that I knew from my youth, slogging around the local muni with a set of hand-me-down ladies Campbell blades. I found that on my home course, the narrower the sole, and the sharper the leading edge, the better the club worked. I parked the Bettinardi in the garage, and pulled out a flanged bullseye, and reminded myself that putting used to be more of an art form than a mechanical process. And through this, I rediscovered a passion for the game I had lost, and found enjoyment in more than my score.

Because, if all you care about is your score, then in every round except one (your best) you are bound to be disappointed.

This is a game and is supposed to be fun. People find their fun in many ways on a golf course. I get my fun from playing vintage forged blades, and the average age of club in my bag is almost 40 years old. All the clubs in my bag added together have a total combined age of 555 years. They have more experience than I ever will.

And do the irons I play make a difference? Not really, as strokes can much easier be lost and found off the tee, and on and around the green.

So play what you like, and find your golf muse where you find her. As DeNinny says, there are no absolutes as to what works best for every golfer.

[cloozoe]

[i]"...[color=#282828]75% of the tour plays CBs..."[/color][/i]

A counterintuitive observation while begging the question of whether more "forgiving" clubs do or do not result in lower scores:

Forgiveness is [i]more[/i] important for a pro than it is for me.

If they mis-hit a shot slightly and it costs them 10 yards of distance/direction vs 5, it costs them money. It costs me nothing.

If I shoot an 85 but get a kick out of the aesthetics of my clubs, or extra enjoyment out of the feel of the well-struck shots, or the pleasure of occasionally shaping a shot [i]precisely[/i] the way I want to, might that not be more important to me than shooting an 80? I don't play competitively so why would I care? (rhetorical question; I don't).

[Ripken08]

MP60s to MP67s is comparing apples to apples. No wonder you never saw a difference because there is none. As someone already posted, playability is the same. Now MP53/54 vs MP67 would be a good comparison.

[Startzel]

[quote name='cloozoe' timestamp='1399551536' post='9255629']
[i]"...[color=#282828]75% of the tour plays CBs..."[/color][/i]

A counterintuitive observation while begging the question of whether more "forgiving" clubs do or do not result in lower scores:

Forgiveness is [i]more[/i] important for a pro than it is for me.

If they mis-hit a shot slightly and it costs them 10 yards of distance/direction vs 5, it costs them money. It costs me nothing.

If I shoot an 85 but get a kick out of the aesthetics of my clubs, or extra enjoyment out of the feel of the well-struck shots, or the pleasure of occasionally shaping a shot [i]precisely[/i] the way I want to, might that not be more important to me than shooting an 80? I don't play competitively so why would I care? (rhetorical question; I don't).
[/quote]

Absolutely, I don't believe anyone will disagree with this. If someone wants to play blades for enjoyment and shoot an 85 instead of an 80 I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

I think the issue for me is that there are people arguing that blades make the game easier for them. That just isn't true, even for the best players in the world CBs are the preferred choice.

[sirvinim]

I agree that MP-60's are too close to MP-67's but I love the write up you shared. I think for people who have the time to work on their game then blades may work well enough.

Then there are others who can't carve out practice time and just go to the course and play. Cavity backs may be the better choice there.

[Jeckert07]

Nice post Deninny. I tend to agree with you about most of your thoughts...I practice mostly with my MP68's (game them here and there) and play 9 out of 10 rounds with my AP2's. To be honest, I've never felt that my mishits produced worse results with my MP68's...if I make a poor swing with either iron I get a crap result. The only real difference is if I hit the ball 1/2 an inch off the sweet spot with my AP2's I get about 10 more yards than with my MP68's. Shots hit on the sweet spot land in the exact same area...

[LittlePoison1980]

DeNinny, good for you to take this on. Whatever the results, play what works and play your best.

[Texas Golfer]

I like how a blade feels in the golf swing. Compared to SGI clubs, blades usually have heavier shafts and the center of gravity on a blade is much closer to the hosel. To illustrate, take a blade iron and an SGI iron and twirl them kinda like pros do after a good shot. The SGI has much more "wobble" than the blade because of the center of gravity location.

My comments about blades are meant to apply to tour model players cavity backs too, since many tour cb's have heavy shafts and small heads like blades.

[BrickDaFunk]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399549570' post='9255517']
Where is the data?
[/quote]

Last I checked...this is an Internet forum. Not quite Golf Digest. In your efforts to inject some constructive criticism, you fall wildly short to get the proper attention of us mortal folk due to your tact...you should first get off your narcissistic high horse and then attempt to communicate within the topic of discussion at a "human" level.

Sorry OP, couldn't help myself after what I read in Sean2's thread...nice write up, take care.

Edit: Startzel, should you choose to reply, you can certainly have the last word...you're welcome.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Rock Chalk Jayhawk' timestamp='1399546648' post='9255401']
bet your scores would have been lower with SGIs. :P
[/quote]

I bet not! I would love to see the results of a real world side by side experiment on that one.

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399549570' post='9255517']
Where is the data?
[/quote]

My data is from a nearly identical side by side playing experience over 7 years at different levels of skill throughout which equates to over 700 rounds and thousands of range balls. As mentioned in my Final Thoughts I didn't keep the statistics of all my rounds. From my subjective interpretation my scores were no different on average regardless of the club used. That's my definition of data in this experiment.

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1399550693' post='9255577']
What a revelation. I returned to the feeling of a well struck shot that I knew from my youth, slogging around the local muni with a set of hand-me-down ladies Campbell blades. I found that on my home course, the narrower the sole, and the sharper the leading edge, the better the club worked. I parked the Bettinardi in the garage, and pulled out a flanged bullseye, and reminded myself that putting used to be more of an art form than a mechanical process. And through this, I rediscovered a passion for the game I had lost, and found enjoyment in more than my score.

Because, if all you care about is your score, then in every round except one (your best) you are bound to be disappointed.

This is a game and is supposed to be fun. People find their fun in many ways on a golf course. I get my fun from playing vintage forged blades, and the average age of club in my bag is almost 40 years old. All the clubs in my bag added together have a total combined age of 555 years. They have more experience than I ever will.

And do the irons I play make a difference? Not really, as strokes can much easier be lost and found off the tee, and on and around the green.

So play what you like, and find your golf muse where you find her. As DeNinny says, there are no absolutes as to what works best for every golfer.
[/quote]

Well said. I have no problem if someone says they shot better with either type of club. For myself I can definitively say it doesn't matter. Again, there's no absolute. I'm convinced at all levels of the game there is a spectra of which players play best with which clubs.

[quote name='SHORTBUTSTR8' timestamp='1399552406' post='9255719']
MP60s to MP67s is comparing apples to apples. No wonder you never saw a difference because there is none. As someone already posted, playability is the same. Now MP53/54 vs MP67 would be a good comparison.
[/quote]

I would think that Mizuno would beg to differ on that one and any other manufacturer of blades and player's CBs. The two types are mostly to market to different skill levels with only some overlap at the lower index range. It's clear across the board on that one. Otherwise, why have a different product line. At some skill level there should be a significant difference, *if* the premise is that a CB is more forgiving or rather better for scores. From my own experience at index range of 16 down to 7 I saw a consistent result that my scores really weren't any different. I would have expected there would be a significant difference in scores at either a 7 or at a 16 because that is a significant difference in skill level. Yet the end result was still no difference in scores. IIRC the MP-60 recommended skill range was about scratch up to around 12 and the MP-67 range was more in the better than scratch up to around 7 (don't quote me on this). If this is "true", then I definitely should have shot better with the MP-60s when my index was around 10 and above. Yet I didn't.

I fully agree a SGI vs blade is a better comparison but respectfully disagree there is zero difference between a 60 and 67 for which to make a conclusion on this topic.

At the very least, based on your statement of no difference between a players CB and a blade, then Mizuno and all players CB makers have been lying to consumers all along. Furthermore, if they are lying about that, could it be they are also lying about the benefits of an SGI club! Which is precisely my point!

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399553101' post='9255779']
[quote name='cloozoe' timestamp='1399551536' post='9255629']
[i]"...[color=#282828]75% of the tour plays CBs..."[/color][/i]

A counterintuitive observation while begging the question of whether more "forgiving" clubs do or do not result in lower scores:

Forgiveness is [i]more[/i] important for a pro than it is for me.

If they mis-hit a shot slightly and it costs them 10 yards of distance/direction vs 5, it costs them money. It costs me nothing.

If I shoot an 85 but get a kick out of the aesthetics of my clubs, or extra enjoyment out of the feel of the well-struck shots, or the pleasure of occasionally shaping a shot [i]precisely[/i] the way I want to, might that not be more important to me than shooting an 80? I don't play competitively so why would I care? (rhetorical question; I don't).
[/quote]

Absolutely, I don't believe anyone will disagree with this. If someone wants to play blades for enjoyment and shoot an 85 instead of an 80 I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

I think the issue for me is that there are people arguing that blades make the game easier for them. That just isn't true, even for the best players in the world CBs are the preferred choice.
[/quote]

But again using CBs at the professional level is not an absolute truth. If the benefit was absolute then there would be zero percent playing blades. I agree CBs in general will make the game easier for most golfers but for whatever magical reason there is a significant number of golfers, at all skill levels, that actually play worse with them. I'm in the camp that doesn't score any different (to any significance from my own personal data, however flawed.) What I don't understand is why you have issue with the statement about blades making the game easier? I never made the statement myself, but I don't tell those people they are wrong. I can say for a fact that my players CB irons did not make the game easier or harder [b]for me[/b], but I can certainly understand a [b]different opinion [/b]and/or [b]different experience[/b] by someone else. If you have personal proof that a blade made your game worse in a side by side comparison with an SGI or GI club, by all means please share it so another fellow reader can learn and consider not to get some blades.

[quote name='sirvinim' timestamp='1399554261' post='9255881']
I agree that MP-60's are too close to MP-67's but I love the write up you shared. I think for people who have the time to work on their game then blades may work well enough.

Then there are others who can't carve out practice time and just go to the course and play. Cavity backs may be the better choice there.
[/quote]

Thank you for the comment. See above regarding my response regarding the clubs being too close. I would agree at around a 7 index there should be no difference but at a 16 I really would have expected the 60s to improve my scores *if* the premise were an absolute. I'm still waiting for the SGI vs true blade player to post their experiment. I think Oldplayer is the closest with real world experience in this thread so far.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='LittlePoison1980' timestamp='1399565709' post='9257245']
DeNinny, good for you to take this on. Whatever the results, play what works and play your best.
[/quote]
Thanks and I hope that's the takeaway for everyone on this. Again...no absolutes...

I'm not really taking anything on except typing a lot. This really isn't an experiment by design. It's simply how I play my clubs (i.e. how I make sure nothing happens to my blades when I travel and that I have a backup set), which happens to be a good comparison since nearly all variables are equal except for the clubhead.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='BrickDaFunk' timestamp='1399568229' post='9257543']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399549570' post='9255517']
Where is the data?
[/quote]

Last I checked...this is an Internet forum. Not quite Golf Digest. In your efforts to inject some constructive criticism, you fall wildly short to get the proper attention of us mortal folk due to your tact...you should first get off your narcissistic high horse and then attempt to communicate within the topic of discussion at a "human" level.

Sorry OP, couldn't help myself after what I read in Sean2's thread...nice write up, take care.

Edit: Startzel, should you choose to reply, you can certainly have the last word...you're welcome.
[/quote]
Thanks Brick and I don't see where Startzel is on a high horse here. I've clarified my definition of data in a separate response. I'm not a moderator but as the OP trying to maintain a civil debate, I want to mention I don't see any narcissism in this question. If he doesn't agree with that definition of data that's fine. I've provided full disclosure on my observations and admit this isn't a perfect experiment with perfect data (but I'll bet it's more than most others have experience with!).

What we need is three identical triplets. We give two of them my same setup. the third gets a set of SGIs with the same shafts and everything else. They then play their careers and we take statistics on all their scores with those clubs at all their varying skill levels. Finally then we can make some headway on this debate. Are there any golfwrx triplets out there willing to take this on?

[maxcapouch]

the bottom line is that if you are a bad golfer, you will be bad with any iron that you use, and if you are a good player, you will play well with any irons.

play the irons that you like the look of and have confidence with, thats really all there is to it in my opinion