DeNinny's Blade vs CB Experiment and Data

[Mitchell]

Like Isaac, I have played on a reasonably competitive level and maintained a + handicap for many years, so perhaps my perspective may be a bit different than some, but I am truly curious as to the definition of forgiveness in an iron that the cb advocates are using and how they come up with a quantifiable, measureable difference in score relative to club type used.

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399614522' post='9261721']
Some people sure are touchy. It's like they need validation to play a certain club. Play what you want & make whatever claims you want but nobody has to actually believe it especially with the "rationale" provided. A club with some offset, a cavity, thicker sole, a low cog,.....what's that produce? A club that glides on the turf, that produces a higher & straighter ball flight with forgiveness on miss hits. Yea I can see how blades would be more forgiving for the mid-high handicapper. It's not on my dime so who cares.
[/quote]

You care, obviously. Are you on a mission to prevent people
from being misled? There's so much misinformation in the
world. How do you keep track of it all and protect people from
it? It must be hard to be you with so little time to get everything
done. Just think, maybe 80 people bought some blades today
and you weren't there to stop them.

You are an elitist because in your mind people can't make
rational decisions without you there to help them. Ya, you
care.......about yourself.......this is all about you.

[govols]

[quote name='Conrad1953' timestamp='1399684967' post='9266461']
[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399614522' post='9261721']
Some people sure are touchy. It's like they need validation to play a certain club. Play what you want & make whatever claims you want but nobody has to actually believe it especially with the "rationale" provided. A club with some offset, a cavity, thicker sole, a low cog,.....what's that produce? A club that glides on the turf, that produces a higher & straighter ball flight with forgiveness on miss hits. Yea I can see how blades would be more forgiving for the mid-high handicapper. It's not on my dime so who cares.
[/quote]

You care, obviously. Are you on a mission to prevent people
from being misled? There's so much misinformation in the
world. How do you keep track of it all and protect people from
it? It must be hard to be you with so little time to get everything
done. Just think, maybe 80 people bought some blades today
and you weren't there to stop them.

You are an elitist because in your mind people can't make
rational decisions without you there to help them. Ya, you
care.......about yourself.......this is all about you.
[/quote]

Lol, when a person says a blade is more forgiving "for them" it's not me being the elitist just the guy that calls it how I see it & there's nothing rational about what they say. I guess there's a few "exceptions to the rule" obviously by exceptional folks only found here.

[Mitchell]

From the exceptional Mat562, " you can put the latest cavity backed, multi-material, wonder irons in your bag- but if you are hitting the ball fat, it will make about as much difference in the fall of your shots as painting your arse yellow"

[govols]

[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399686833' post='9266653']
From the exceptional Mat562, " you can put the latest cavity backed, multi-material, wonder irons in your bag- but if you are hitting the ball fat, it will make about as much difference in the fall of your shots as painting your arse yellow"
[/quote]

Not all fat shots are created equal. There is a line where you can be so bad that the club won't matter. Then there's those mis-hits that are slight but far more magnified by blades. Blades aren't designed for suspect ball strikers seeking any forgiveness. That's a fact. If you're a double digit handicap playing blades without a dime size wear spot in the middle of every iron you can say "they just work for me" or "I'm the exception" all you want but nobody with a realistic head on their shoulders is gonna believe it. But in a sense you're right, if you hit 6 inches behind the ball it won't matter. Now if you hit a quarter inch behind.......

[isaacbm]

I'm not saying blades are more forgiving. I'm simply saying it's hard to quantify how much playing a slightly more forgiving club will actually affect your score. I've yet to see anyone in any of the hundred threads about this over the last seven years give any kind of information whatsoever that can prove that having a slightly more forgiving iron is going to dramatically decrease your score.

For example let's say your average miss with a five iron is 36 feet that would put you at one of the best on tour let's say you improve by 10% that means that your average miss is now 32 feet the average score for PGA Tour player from 32 feet to 36 feet is exactly the same. So let's say that it's changing from a blade to a CB that improved your percentage by 10%. still doesn't affect your score.

[bladehunter]

you seem like a decent dude...and we are from the same neck of the woods, so im not trying to make another enemy... but I have to ask....what difference would a CB make if you hit it 1/4 inch behind the ball? I really think the only place a CB will "help" is if your missing toe side and the iron your using had some toe side weight or mass...other wise you cant miss too much hosle side or its a shank, and fat is fat , thin is thin... only with a true SGI club weighted down low thin is gone....way over the target....

maybe I hit the ball better than I know..i just don't get it truly..I own several sets of either or and I don't count any of them more "forgiving" than the next.... I just like certain irons for their turf interaction and weighted feel.

[isaacbm]

And I would also say that the single biggest thing that could help a high or mid handicap is having a club with the correct sole grind. lots of bounce on a blade makes the blade play almost like a CB no bounce on the blade makes it a lot harder to play.

I find the cavity back part of "forgiveness" almost irrelevant. I do find having a huge rounded sole quite relevant.

[Mitchell]

Govols,
Every post or reply made does not require rebuttal and I am not seeking an argument, was merely attempting to bring some levity into a topic that tends to get overly contentious. I have asked several times in this thread for advocates of cavity backed clubs to define clearly their interpretation of forgiveness in an iron and subsequent to that, to relate personal examples of effect in relation to scoring. While I agree that a certain level of proficiency is required to play well with many blades, the same applies to many cavities as well. Where our opinions seem to differ is that I am willing to engage in discussion without making the assumption that anyone playing blades here is doing so out of some illogical need for validation/justification. Any insight from your own game or personal examples would be welcome, back and forth between membership does not serve to further positive discourse.

[govols]

[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399691066' post='9267027']
Govols,
Every post or reply made does not require rebuttal and I am not seeking an argument, was merely attempting to bring some levity into a topic that tends to get overly contentious. I have asked several times in this thread for advocates of cavity backed clubs to define clearly their interpretation of forgiveness in an iron and subsequent to that, to relate personal examples of effect in relation to scoring. While I agree that a certain level of proficiency is required to play well with many blades, the same applies to many cavities as well. Where our opinions seem to differ is that I am willing to engage in discussion without making the assumption that anyone playing blades here is doing so out of some illogical need for validation/justification. Any insight from your own game or personal examples would be welcome, back and forth between membership does not serve to further positive discourse.
[/quote]

How do you interpret the phrase "blades are more forgiving for me"? If I have to explain levels of forgiveness to you then it's really a waste of my time. We can put closure on our "back & forth".

[DeNinny]

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1399691533' post='9267071']
[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399691066' post='9267027']
Govols,
Every post or reply made does not require rebuttal and I am not seeking an argument, was merely attempting to bring some levity into a topic that tends to get overly contentious. I have asked several times in this thread for advocates of cavity backed clubs to define clearly their interpretation of forgiveness in an iron and subsequent to that, to relate personal examples of effect in relation to scoring. While I agree that a certain level of proficiency is required to play well with many blades, the same applies to many cavities as well. Where our opinions seem to differ is that I am willing to engage in discussion without making the assumption that anyone playing blades here is doing so out of some illogical need for validation/justification. Any insight from your own game or personal examples would be welcome, back and forth between membership does not serve to further positive discourse.
[/quote]

How do you interpret the phrase "blades are more forgiving for me"? If I have to explain levels of forgiveness to you then it's really a waste of my time. We can put closure on our "back & forth".
[/quote]

Agreed govols. I hope both can answer each others questions and move on. I can understand your viewpoint needing some basis of how a blade is more forgiving. I really think a good example of this is isaacbm's comment that a blade is easier to hit off hardpan than a typically higher bounce CB. In that situation it seems to me that the blade is more forgiving. I have a lot of experience with this as well. I much prefer hitting my blades on both hardpan and tight lies but my CBs in wet conditions.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1399688303' post='9266763']
I'm not saying blades are more forgiving. I'm simply saying it's hard to quantify how much playing a slightly more forgiving club will actually affect your score. I've yet to see anyone in any of the hundred threads about this over the last seven years give any kind of information whatsoever that can prove that having a slightly more forgiving iron is going to dramatically decrease your score.

For example let's say your average miss with a five iron is 36 feet that would put you at one of the best on tour let's say you improve by 10% that means that your average miss is now 32 feet the average score for PGA Tour player from 32 feet to 36 feet is exactly the same. So let's say that it's changing from a blade to a CB that improved your percentage by 10%. still doesn't affect your score.
[/quote]

I wish I could 100X like this post and your other math one. I'm really glad you keep doing your "silly math". It is making a lot of sense to me and I think this may be the most important reason that iron type is nearly irrelevant to score. We can keep arguing about design and small sweetspot and swing style and such, but the simple math accounts for a lot. To further, your basis is from a +2 perspective and I think it gets even less significant with a higher handicap. The higher handicap would have even less GIR chances to use an iron than the scratch player (like me driving it OB). Thank you for enriching the conversation yet again. You may have ended the debate with this one.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399695110' post='9267341']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1399688303' post='9266763']
I'm not saying blades are more forgiving. I'm simply saying it's hard to quantify how much playing a slightly more forgiving club will actually affect your score. I've yet to see anyone in any of the hundred threads about this over the last seven years give any kind of information whatsoever that can prove that having a slightly more forgiving iron is going to dramatically decrease your score.

For example let's say your average miss with a five iron is 36 feet that would put you at one of the best on tour let's say you improve by 10% that means that your average miss is now 32 feet the average score for PGA Tour player from 32 feet to 36 feet is exactly the same. So let's say that it's changing from a blade to a CB that improved your percentage by 10%. still doesn't affect your score.
[/quote]

I wish I could 100X like this post and your other math one. I'm really glad you keep doing your "silly math". It is making a lot of sense to me and I think this may be the most important reason that iron type is nearly irrelevant to score. We can keep arguing about design and small sweetspot and swing style and such, but the simple math accounts for a lot. To further, your basis is from a +2 perspective and I think it gets even less significant with a higher handicap. The higher handicap would have even less GIR chances to use an iron than the scratch player (like me driving it OB). Thank you for enriching the conversation yet again. You may have ended the debate with this one.
[/quote]

Oh but wait...the golfwrx heart may stop beating...

[Mitchell]

Here's an example of instance in which a player type might find a blade design more forgiving for his/her type of miss compared to a cavity back- that particular player being one who generally misses sweet spot in vertical dimension rather than more off heel/toe side. Paraphrasing no less an expert on club design than Tom Wishon, due to the construction method of a typical cavity back with its hollowed out area, blade height tends to be anywhere from 2-5mm higher, which is the primary factor in determination of vertical center of gravity. Blades also tend to have weaker, more traditional lofts than cbs. The primary factors in initial launch determination are loft first, center of gravity of clubhead second, and shaft third.
Better players tend to miss slightly in vertical dimension, not as often in horizontal dimension, and for those players ,clubs with c.o.g. in comparable locations, whether blades or cavities play similarly. Bounce, sole width, grind can further fine tune the club to players individual swing based on angle of attack and conditions commonly faced.
*In no way is the above intended to argue forgiveness of other types of misses, simply I hope to provide some logical explanation as to why some players find certain blade-like designs to be comparatively "forgiving"

[DeNinny]

[quote name='cloozoe' timestamp='1399678783' post='9265955']
[color=#282828]In short, it takes all kinds and, as my kids say, you should never "yuch" somebody else's "yum"s.[/color]
[/quote]

I could learn a lot from your kids. I wish I could 100X like this too.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399696953' post='9267423']
Here's an example of instance in which a player type might find a blade design more forgiving for his/her type of miss compared to a cavity back- that particular player being one who generally misses sweet spot in vertical dimension rather than more off heel/toe side. Paraphrasing no less an expert on club design than Tom Wishon, due to the construction method of a typical cavity back with its hollowed out area, blade height tends to be anywhere from 2-5mm higher, which is the primary factor in determination of vertical center of gravity. Blades also tend to have weaker, more traditional lofts than cbs. The primary factors in initial launch determination are loft first, center of gravity of clubhead second, and shaft third.
Better players tend to miss slightly in vertical dimension, not as often in horizontal dimension, and for those players ,clubs with c.o.g. in comparable locations, whether blades or cavities play similarly. Bounce, sole width, grind can further fine tune the club to players individual swing based on angle of attack and conditions commonly faced.
*In no way is the above intended to argue forgiveness of other types of misses, simply I hope to provide some logical explanation as to why some players find certain blade-like designs to be comparatively "forgiving"
[/quote]

Now that you have [b]clearly defined your meaning of forgiveness[/b], I really see this in my experience as well. I am by far not a good player but my miss is most definitely thin (vertical). This explains why when I hit it slightly thin with the 67s I don't really mind as much as with my 60s. I rarely miss horizontal like hitting it off the toe. I have an upright swing and abhor hitting it fat. Regardless of your reference to Tom Wishon, I understood your technical explanation. I'm learning so much tonight.

[Sean2]

I explained in my thread while they were more forgiving for me. Then the thought police intervened and told me how wrong I was. Imagine how grateful I was to learn that even though I was the one who did the experimenting, who went through the experience, that I was wrong...corrected by people who did not know one thing about me, my game, or my swing. Yes, their approach was very scientific.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1399709660' post='9267711']
I explained in my thread while they were more forgiving for me. Then the thought police intervened and told me how wrong I was. Imagine how grateful I was to learn that even though I was the one who did the experimenting, who went through the experience, that I was wrong...corrected by people who did not know one thing about me, my game, or my swing. Yes, their approach was very scientific.
[/quote]

Sean2 welcome back! Your thread was my final motivation to write up my story in full detail instead of partial snippets in others' threads. Let's continue your experiences here, maybe in more detail than before your thread was unfortunately locked. I would like to focus on the more positive aspects of your thread and not focus on the aspects that caused it to be locked. Can we please wipe the slate clean?

[Sean2]

I had everything I had to say in my thread, the purpose of which was to share my experiences and hopefully read about other people's unique experiences, no matter what the equipment, shafts, handicaps, swing speeds and the like. The idea was that it would evolve into a long term thread.

As to the naysayers, I found their asymmetric arrogance boorish, and saw no point in further disputation.

There was no slate to wipe clean, DeNinny. :-)

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1399711213' post='9267735']
I had everything I had to say in my thread, the purpose of which was to share my experiences and hopefully read about other people's unique experiences, no matter what the equipment, shafts, handicaps, swing speeds and the like. The idea was that it would evolve into a long term thread.

As to the naysayers, I found their asymmetric arrogance boorish, and saw no point in further disputation.

There was no slate to wipe clean, DeNinny. :-)
[/quote]

Sean2 I'm glad our slate is clean but what I was really trying to suggest is to wipe the slate clean with the naysayers and to stop discussing the negative aspects of your thread in this one. It may serve to bring the negativity back in here.

[Startzel]

[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399696953' post='9267423']
Here's an example of instance in which a player type might find a blade design more forgiving for his/her type of miss compared to a cavity back- that particular player being one who generally misses sweet spot in vertical dimension rather than more off heel/toe side. Paraphrasing no less an expert on club design than Tom Wishon, due to the construction method of a typical cavity back with its hollowed out area, blade height tends to be anywhere from 2-5mm higher, which is the primary factor in determination of vertical center of gravity. Blades also tend to have weaker, more traditional lofts than cbs. The primary factors in initial launch determination are loft first, center of gravity of clubhead second, and shaft third.
Better players tend to miss slightly in vertical dimension, not as often in horizontal dimension, and for those players ,clubs with c.o.g. in comparable locations, whether blades or cavities play similarly. Bounce, sole width, grind can further fine tune the club to players individual swing based on angle of attack and conditions commonly faced.
*In no way is the above intended to argue forgiveness of other types of misses, simply I hope to provide some logical explanation as to why some players find certain blade-like designs to be comparatively "forgiving"
[/quote]

Do you think 9-15 handicaps generally miss vertically instead of horizontally?

[bladehunter]

there he is.....had any time to think on the question? What MB have you played, hit demoed and didn't like? and why?

[Mitchell]

Startzel, the response was regarding a logical explanation as to why certain players with a certain miss may find blades relatively forgiving. In answer to your question, the arbitrary assignment of handicap numbers as a correlation between ability to play blades further complicates discussion unnecessarily. The choice should be made based upon types of misses and resultant dispersion. I am not, nor have I ever, recommended that blades are the best fit for everyone, especially not players with a wider dispersion pattern across the clubface.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1399740170' post='9268861']
[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399696953' post='9267423']
Here's an example of instance in which a player type might find a blade design more forgiving for his/her type of miss compared to a cavity back- that particular player being one who generally misses sweet spot in vertical dimension rather than more off heel/toe side. Paraphrasing no less an expert on club design than Tom Wishon, due to the construction method of a typical cavity back with its hollowed out area, blade height tends to be anywhere from 2-5mm higher, which is the primary factor in determination of vertical center of gravity. Blades also tend to have weaker, more traditional lofts than cbs. The primary factors in initial launch determination are loft first, center of gravity of clubhead second, and shaft third.
Better players tend to miss slightly in vertical dimension, not as often in horizontal dimension, and for those players ,clubs with c.o.g. in comparable locations, whether blades or cavities play similarly. Bounce, sole width, grind can further fine tune the club to players individual swing based on angle of attack and conditions commonly faced.
*In no way is the above intended to argue forgiveness of other types of misses, simply I hope to provide some logical explanation as to why some players find certain blade-like designs to be comparatively "forgiving"
[/quote]

Do you think 9-15 handicaps generally miss vertically instead of horizontally?
[/quote]

Excellent question, Startzel! I wouldn't know what kind of miss a 9-15 handicap has. I would love to see some statistical data on that topic. I can say definitively for myself that I miss vertically for reasons already stated. If we can then assume that I am not special (I don't think I am), then I would say there is a significant percentage of 9-16 that do miss vertically. I wouldn't know the percentage though. One thing is for sure is that there is not an absolute answer, which is similar to the debate at hand, no?

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1399741213' post='9268893']
there he is.....had any time to think on the question? What MB have you played, hit demoed and didn't like? and why?
[/quote]
bladehunter if I remember correctly you have asked Startzel this question or similar ones in the past and he has chosen not to answer. If he hasn't answered by now then there is a high chance he won't ever. I think he asked a very legitimate question here and it should just be answered at face value. It is difficult to move forward if a question is answered with another question.

[quote name='Mitchell' timestamp='1399748589' post='9269367']
Startzel, the response was regarding a logical explanation as to why certain players with a certain miss may find blades relatively forgiving. In answer to your question, the arbitrary assignment of handicap numbers as a correlation between ability to play blades further complicates discussion unnecessarily. The choice should be made based upon types of misses and resultant dispersion. I am not, nor have I ever, recommended that blades are the best fit for everyone, especially not players with a wider dispersion pattern across the clubface.
[/quote]

I agree with this position regarding the argument at hand. But there's no harm in asking the question. Sometimes those questions lead to more poignant points as the conversation develops. If the majority of 9-16 handicaps missed horizontally, then by your own post those players may benefit from CB/GI clubs. Seems logical to me. What's not known is the percentage of 9-16s that miss this way.

[bladehunter]

oh I agree...he wont answer because his opinion is based on other folks' opinions which are based on other opinions etc.... That was the point..... play what you want to and stop trying to convince others to play what you play... we are all guilty of it from time to time of course...but rarely do we see it with such animosity towards others as he/she have shown.. To call out a respected member for his opinion and then to call him dishonest for having said opinion doesn't sit well.. I doubt ill be able to read a written word he/she types without thinking about that post. Im happy to bow out of the thread if im a problem. But a simple question that would validate his/her opinion on the subject I don't think is out of line. If any person wants to give such a strong argument on a subject id expect he/she to have actual experience on the subject or else keep his/her opinions to themselves. But hey that's just me, call me crazy but I like a little fact in with my opinion.

[Jack Pearsall]

JP found that slight toe hits seem to be better executed with a CB iron than a real blade.
But it is a slight forgiveness but still, it Is there...

[DeNinny]

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1399695110' post='9267341']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1399688303' post='9266763']
I'm not saying blades are more forgiving. I'm simply saying it's hard to quantify how much playing a slightly more forgiving club will actually affect your score. I've yet to see anyone in any of the hundred threads about this over the last seven years give any kind of information whatsoever that can prove that having a slightly more forgiving iron is going to dramatically decrease your score.

For example let's say your average miss with a five iron is 36 feet that would put you at one of the best on tour let's say you improve by 10% that means that your average miss is now 32 feet the average score for PGA Tour player from 32 feet to 36 feet is exactly the same. So let's say that it's changing from a blade to a CB that improved your percentage by 10%. still doesn't affect your score.
[/quote]

I wish I could 100X like this post and your other math one. I'm really glad you keep doing your "silly math". It is making a lot of sense to me and I think this may be the most important reason that iron type is nearly irrelevant to score. We can keep arguing about design and small sweetspot and swing style and such, but the simple math accounts for a lot. To further, your basis is from a +2 perspective and I think it gets even less significant with a higher handicap. The higher handicap would have even less GIR chances to use an iron than the scratch player (like me driving it OB). Thank you for enriching the conversation yet again. You may have ended the debate with this one.
[/quote]

So I just got back from a horrible round today. Shot 92. Although not my typical day I kept track of my GIR chances with 7 through 4 iron, which was 4 chances. For purposes of argument I'm saying these are the clubs where I may have benefitted from using a GI club instead of using my mp67. I have no issue with hitting P through 8 with any type of club so I didn't include them in this evaluation. Also 7W was in the bag instead of my 3i.

Chance #1: 173 yard par 3. I tried to cut a 4i into a small headwind to a tight pin. Result: pull hook low off the green and behind a bunker. I don't think a GI club would have helped me in this situation. If someone that uses GIs and knows that it would save a pull hook with it, please let me know. I know for sure my mp60s would not have helped me

Chance #2: 149 yard par 3. I tried to cut a 6i into a small headwind to a tight pin. Result: pull hook low off the green and behind a bunker. I don't think a GI club would have helped me in this situation as per Chance #1.

Chance #3: 175 yard par 3. I tried to hit 4i right at the pin in the middle of the green. Result: slight pull left of pin just off the fringe. I think a GI club would have helped me stay on the green in this situation. Since I would be putting instead of chipping.

Chance #4: 160 yard par 4 approach shot uphill to a middle pin. I tried to hit 5i right at it. Result: my infamous thin miss putting it just on the front fringe. I think my blade was best in this scenario.

So from the above, chance #3 and #4 cancel each other out in terms of either type of club being better. End result is no impact to my score by using blades unless someone can confirm a GI club would correct a pull hook swing. In that case there may be two chances for GI to be the better club.

So isaacbm on a poor ballstriking day for me, mathematically the chances to have benefitted from a GI club is pretty low. Thanks again for getting me thinking about this. Unfortunately I think it was affecting my game today too. LOL my excuse du jour.

Also I forgot to thank you for the driver advice. I do like a 45" driver and always cut down the 46" monstrosities on the racks these days. I will consider going down to 43" as you recommended but being a "ninny" I'm afraid to sacrifice distance.

[DeNinny]

[quote name='bladehunter' timestamp='1399761427' post='9270045']
oh I agree...he wont answer because his opinion is based on other folks' opinions which are based on other opinions etc.... That was the point..... play what you want to and stop trying to convince others to play what you play... we are all guilty of it from time to time of course...but rarely do we see it with such animosity towards others as he/she have shown.. To call out a respected member for his opinion and then to call him dishonest for having said opinion doesn't sit well.. I doubt ill be able to read a written word he/she types without thinking about that post. Im happy to bow out of the thread if im a problem. But a simple question that would validate his/her opinion on the subject I don't think is out of line. If any person wants to give such a strong argument on a subject id expect he/she to have actual experience on the subject or else keep his/her opinions to themselves. But hey that's just me, call me crazy but I like a little fact in with my opinion.
[/quote]
bladehunter I have read a lot of value in your posts and I know you are very frustrated but if you can just keep on the topic of this thread and not post about Startzel's behavior then I will not ask you to leave it. I hope this is your last vent and you feel better now. Again I want to[b] stay on the topic at hand [/b]and as objectively as possible. I also think you have been commenting on his behavior moreso from another thread. In this one he has primarily asked some simple and significant questions that are completely relevant to the discussion. I'm just asking you to do the same and I do want you to stay.

As cloozoe's [b]children[/b] would say: [b] you should never "yuch" somebody else's "yum"s[/b]

[bladehunter]

your wishes are respected and I will abide....

[DeNinny]

[quote name='Jack Pearsall' timestamp='1399762390' post='9270105']
JP found that slight toe hits seem to be better executed with a CB iron than a real blade.
But it is a slight forgiveness but still, it Is there...
[/quote]

Being JP you are exempt from all requirements to provide data. This goes without saying so sorry for stating the obvious.