Golf is dying: "lost 5 million players in the last decade... another 5 million will quit in the next

[ctmason_98]

[quote name='cherokee8215' timestamp='1403526392' post='9556113']
[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1403383827' post='9547215']
This is a great point, but I believe one of the biggest issues is the American work week. Most adults who play golf work the 9-5 Monday through Friday type jobs. That means around 70% of the available time to play golf is taken up by work.

Only during DST can you play after work so most golfers free time is in hours where golf isn't even available.
[/quote]

It should also be noted that the days of salaried workers with well paying jobs leaving at 5pm on the dot and working 40 hours tops are pretty much toast for office workers. At my employer, most people who are paid based on a 40-hour/week salary end up working more like 45-60 hours per week. It's much worse than it was 5-10 years ago. A lot of guys are leaving the office between 6 and 7 due to workload, and taking work home. I'm probably one of the only people in an office of 150+ that plays golf regularly after work during the week, and it's only because I start earlier in the morning than most.

We used to have a weekly company golf league but it went away because nobody could get there in time anymore, or couldn't break away from their families for 3 hours once per week (?!).
[/quote]

I would echo this point, and I'm usually reluctant to make it for fear of the appearance of passive braggery. I have certainly seen that the majority of my coworkers and friends in similar office jobs are in no way working 9-5. Never understood why a 7.5 hour day is inferred by that phrase.

Most people I know and work with are at an office 8-6 minimum and easily have an additional 30 minute commute each way. That's the new standard I see.

[cxx]

[quote name='curitiba' timestamp='1403361938' post='9545817']
I respect the architect but couldnt care less in terms of playing golf. Every golf course should have 1-3 signature holes and the course should be enjoyable.

That Pinehurst crap I saw on tv was great for the PROS, but terrible for amateur golfers.

Here in Brazil we have an architect who has built nearly 10 golf courses. Like a Craft Show, seen one, seen them all! In other words, same s***, different Pile!

The Jack Nicklaus course in Argentina was similar to Glen Abbey in Canada.

In all honesty, the only courses that I would feel the mystic are St Andrews, Pebble Beach, Sawgrass and Augusta.
[/quote]

There are more that have their own history, but if you don't know them or the history, it will be lost on you anyway.

I suppose in recent years tournaments have been called by their corporate names rather by the course or title.

[Auditor_Kevin]

For those who think we shouldn't be concerned about this or try to stem the tide of golfers leaving the sport, expect to see a lot more articles like this one:

[url="http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20140625/news/140629163/"]http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20140625/news/140629163/[/url]

(The article might appear behind a paywall for you - if so, just copy/paste the link into a browser using Incognito mode to view it)

It might behoove some of these taxpayer-funded courses to start defending themselves by comparing their costs to those of surrounding public parks, which usually see little to no revenue whatsoever to balance out the expenditures. Ultimately I think this spells the end for the lower-ranked, old school tight and short public courses. In today's bomb and gouge era, most golfers have better options than playing 330 yard long par 4's with 30 yard wide fairways with pines stacked up on both sides to protect the golfers on the other sides of the hole. Forced irons off the tees won't pay the bills.

[SuperTwi]

As long as there are salesmen, golf will always be around.

But seriously, I am around many golf courses here in California throughout the weekdays and i will tell you what I see at any given time during the weekdays. Empty parking lots for the most part. Weekends is a different story, but people are not playing during the week. It's just a fact that they're not going to be busy and the birds will be chirping.

Ask yourself this as a fellow golfer:

What would i need to play more golf?

I bet your answers are more money and more time and a better wife.

[ctmason_98]

[quote name='SuperTwi' timestamp='1403712343' post='9574551']
I bet your answers are more money and more time and a better wife.
[/quote]

Nice work Kreskin....I mean that's my answer to EVERYTHING.

[mr_divots]

Golf turns away more business than it should. Ever try to search online tee times as a single? Then do the same search for a twosome? The world suddenly opens up to you if there is another person to be joining you that day. I think if its 24hrs prior and you have a twosome only lined up for the tee time the next day, go with the old addage "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush." Take the certain money, rather than waiting to see if you fill that other slot for the tee time. I don't understand this practice at all. Not a lot of businesses out there that don't want your money these days. Golf is an outlier in this regard.

[fvhowler]

[quote name='Argonne69' timestamp='1403279684' post='9539647']
[quote name='curitiba' timestamp='1402796945' post='9497611']
1) Golf is too long: I personally feel satisfied by about the 14th hole ( a perfect scenario for me would be front 7, back 7, or just 14 holes.)
[/quote]

I've been saying the same thing for years. Cut the courses back to 14 holes by either permanently removing two holes a side, or rotating two holes out each day. Four fewer holes would cut roughly an hour off the round. I don't like playing 9 holes, as it feels too short.
[/quote]

You're just getting old. ; )

Heck, when I was 14 years old, I routinely walked 36 holes in a single day and still wanted to play more. Today, 18 holes is plenty for me.

[Bonneville85308]

[quote name='mr_divots' timestamp='1404067093' post='9602385']
Golf turns away more business than it should. Ever try to search online tee times as a single? Then do the same search for a twosome? The world suddenly opens up to you if there is another person to be joining you that day. I think if its 24hrs prior and you have a twosome only lined up for the tee time the next day, go with the old addage "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush." Take the certain money, rather than waiting to see if you fill that other slot for the tee time. I don't understand this practice at all. Not a lot of businesses out there that don't want your money these days. Golf is an outlier in this regard.
[/quote]

Agreed. One of my local courses is bigtime into "single discrimination". They won't allow a single to book anything, even if there are already 15 3-somes in a row booked. This isn't 1999, singles aren't willing to sit by the first tee for 3 hours wondering when the starter will match them up. People are busy these days and want to know roughly when they will be done with a round of golf. This "penny wise pound foolish" thinking hurts courses in my opinion. I think there is a substantial market of solo golfers who want to play and want a definite tee time.

[Roody]

That's one of the nice advantages to grabbing a season pass. My course allows me to make the tee times a week in advance,, and they never ask me if I'm a single or if I have a foursome. I always grab the 7:00 am tee times on weekends, I've often showed up as a single, and they have never bothered me about it once. It's kinda nice.

However, I know what you mean about the "single discrimination". A couple years back I had a season pass for a different course, and when I would ask for tee times for just me, one of the guys in the pro shop would always say "just come over that morning, we'll pair you up with someone". Ummmm no, I'm not playing that game: show up and wait for an hour to find a threesome to pair me up with. Take my tee time as a single, and then put a threesome around me if you must.

[Startzel]

[quote name='cherokee8215' timestamp='1403526392' post='9556113']
[quote name=%26amp%3B%2339%3BStartzel%26amp%3B%2339%3B timestamp='1403383827' post='9547215']
This is a great point, but I believe one of the biggest issues is the American work week. Most adults who play golf work the 9-5 Monday through Friday type jobs. That means around 70% of the available time to play golf is taken up by work.

Only during DST can you play after work so most golfers free time is in hours where golf isn't even available.
[/quote]

It should also be noted that the days of salaried workers with well paying jobs leaving at 5pm on the dot and working 40 hours tops are pretty much toast for office workers. At my employer, most people who are paid based on a 40-hour/week salary end up working more like 45-60 hours per week. It's much worse than it was 5-10 years ago. A lot of guys are leaving the office between 6 and 7 due to workload, and taking work home. I'm probably one of the only people in an office of 150+ that plays golf regularly after work during the week, and it's only because I start earlier in the morning than most.

We used to have a weekly company golf league but it went away because nobody could get there in time anymore, or couldn't break away from their families for 3 hours once per week (?!).
[/quote]

I agree completely. I assumed everyone would know a 9-5 type job implied more than just 9-5.

[marmooskapaul]

[quote name='Startzel' timestamp='1404090893' post='9604415']
[quote name='cherokee8215' timestamp='1403526392' post='9556113']
[quote name=%26amp%3B%2339%3BStartzel%26amp%3B%2339%3B timestamp='1403383827' post='9547215']
This is a great point, but I believe one of the biggest issues is the American work week. Most adults who play golf work the 9-5 Monday through Friday type jobs. That means around 70% of the available time to play golf is taken up by work.

Only during DST can you play after work so most golfers free time is in hours where golf isn't even available.
[/quote]

It should also be noted that the days of salaried workers with well paying jobs leaving at 5pm on the dot and working 40 hours tops are pretty much toast for office workers. At my employer, most people who are paid based on a 40-hour/week salary end up working more like 45-60 hours per week. It's much worse than it was 5-10 years ago. A lot of guys are leaving the office between 6 and 7 due to workload, and taking work home. I'm probably one of the only people in an office of 150+ that plays golf regularly after work during the week, and it's only because I start earlier in the morning than most.

We used to have a weekly company golf league but it went away because nobody could get there in time anymore, or couldn't break away from their families for 3 hours once per week (?!).
[/quote]

I agree completely. I assumed everyone would know a 9-5 type job implied more than just 9-5.
[/quote]
Must be true, cause I get off at 3:00 and along with a couple buddies we can play evening golf and not have anyone around us?. I've almost stopped playing on Saturdays and Sundays. It's also cheaper. I still think a lot of people can designate one evening during the week to..get of work in time to play ..if there is any flexibility in their schedule .
Paul

[golfizfun]

[quote name='Holy Moses' timestamp='1398262354' post='9150749']
[quote name='Mario Good Times' timestamp='1398260263' post='9150521']
The less people play golf the better pricing and more tee times available for me.
[/quote]

I'm not a business major and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but if less people play golf, you would think that courses would have to lower rates to get people to come. Supply and demand. But from personal experience, no matter how few people are playing, I have never seen a golf course lower rates.
[/quote]

Well, the only thing that really happens is that less courses are built and more close - that just redistributes the pool of involved golfers over time - but yes, the quick jolt of decreasing players will temporarily lower rates (just saw this - county course went from 80$ out of county down to 50$) for daily golf and lower fees at clubs

[hoganswing]

I started playing golf in the 80's as a teenager and golf was not cool. It was considered an old man's sport and I didn't advertise the fact that I played golf. Then quite a good golfer came along called Eldrick Woods and golf seemed to be cool and no longer an old mans sport. Now that Tiger is no longer the force he was golf is doomed. I don't see it that way. I just think a lot of the people that may have picked up golf because of Tiger are calling it quits. Of course there are are many other reasons why golf is losing it's popularity but I think golf will just go back to what it was before Tiger.

[fvhowler]

[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1404095620' post='9604965']
I started playing golf in the 80's as a teenager and golf was not cool. It was considered an old man's sport and I didn't advertise the fact that I played golf. Then quite a good golfer came along called Eldrick Woods and golf seemed to be cool and no longer an old mans sport. Now that Tiger is no longer the force he was golf is doomed. I don't see it that way. I just think a lot of the people that may have picked up golf because of Tiger are calling it quits. Of course there are are many other reasons why golf is losing it's popularity but I think golf will just go back to what it was before Tiger.
[/quote]

I do hear a lot of comments about Tiger playing golf equals interests, sales and tremendous revenues for the sport. Can't really argue with that but it does seem artificial/unsustainable to hitch your wagon to one player. Tiger is not done, but his affect on the game maybe diminishing. Golf is finding its level, post Tiger.

[Soloman1]

Tiger had no effect on sales or players. Golf total equipment sales and players have declined throughout his career. The only effect he had was on his own wallet and the wallet of other players as television advertising rates increased, leading to bigger purses.

Now, that was not a negative commentary about Tiger, simply the facts. He is/was not the Messiah of golf revenue.

Arnold Palmer is "The King" because he did more in his prime to grow the golf industry, including equipment sales, TV, endorsements, course construction and increase players and rounds per year than anyone else.

[ctmason_98]

[quote name='Soloman1' timestamp='1404136668' post='9607073']
Tiger had no effect on sales or players. Golf total equipment sales and players have declined throughout his career. The only effect he had was on his own wallet and the wallet of other players as television advertising rates increased, leading to bigger purses.

Now, that was not a negative commentary about Tiger, simply the facts. He is/was not the Messiah of golf revenue.

Arnold Palmer is "The King" because he did more in his prime to grow the golf industry, including equipment sales, TV, endorsements, course construction and increase players and rounds per year than anyone else.
[/quote]

This needs to be stickied something because is the biggest fallacy about the game for both those "on the inside" and those looking at golf as some sort of successful model. Tiger Woods did not...repeat, DID NOT bring more people to the game in any measurable way. It cannot be stated any more simply.

[mr_divots]

[quote name='Roody' timestamp='1404089453' post='9604269']
That's one of the nice advantages to grabbing a season pass. My course allows me to make the tee times a week in advance,, and they never ask me if I'm a single or if I have a foursome. I always grab the 7:00 am tee times on weekends, I've often showed up as a single, and they have never bothered me about it once. It's kinda nice.

However, I know what you mean about the "single discrimination". A couple years back I had a season pass for a different course, and when I would ask for tee times for just me, one of the guys in the pro shop would always say "just come over that morning, we'll pair you up with someone". Ummmm no, I'm not playing that game: show up and wait for an hour to find a threesome to pair me up with. Take my tee time as a single, and then put a threesome around me if you must.
[/quote]
I actually would not want to see them going to a model where a single COULD take up an entire foursome slot. That would be a potential loss for them. Easier to fill in partial tee times than fill in around singles.

[saltync]

Pretty much sums it up. I have been wanting to start playing again,, but it's just too much of a time and money sink for me atm. Best I could hope for is 9 holes after work and an occasional bucket at the range. And if you don't take lessons, practice and play, you dont get better. Hoping that retirement give me more time.

[cloozoe]

[quote name='ctmason_98' timestamp='1404154165' post='9609177']
[quote name='Soloman1' timestamp='1404136668' post='9607073']
Tiger had no effect on sales or players. Golf total equipment sales and players have declined throughout his career. The only effect he had was on his own wallet and the wallet of other players as television advertising rates increased, leading to bigger purses.

Now, that was not a negative commentary about Tiger, simply the facts. He is/was not the Messiah of golf revenue.

Arnold Palmer is "The King" because he did more in his prime to grow the golf industry, including equipment sales, TV, endorsements, course construction and increase players and rounds per year than anyone else.
[/quote]

This needs to be stickied something because is the biggest fallacy about the game for both those "on the inside" and those looking at golf as some sort of successful model. Tiger Woods did not...repeat, DID NOT bring more people to the game in any measurable way. It cannot be stated any more simply.
[/quote]

Have no idea whether this is true or not, but would love to see the data that purports to prove it.

[BIG STU]

I got up and read through this thread this morning. Good posts from all I would say and many and varying opinions so to speak and I will put my 2 cents worth in so to speak.. I would say the varying opinions come from what ever part of the country or countries you live and work in or retired at.
I was raised in the Charlotte area and my dad ran a public fee daily course in the 60s and 70s. There was a golf boom in that area at that time and very few public courses. There were quite a few country clubs at the time. Our course stayed crowded on weekends and holidays in that period and not so crowded during the week except for Wednesday afternoons when most of the blue collar shops closed on Wednesday afternoons because they worked a half day on Saturday. In the 80s they built quite a few public courses in the area and Charlotte became a banking center. Wow it has changed courses are for the most part still crowded even during the week I know I am up here now on family business.
I dont live up here now have traveled and lived around for the last 30 years or so and I can definetly tell you golf is different depending on where you live at
Currently I live in the Grand Strand (Myrtle Beach area) and it is diferent down there. We have a lot of tourism and retirees. Now when the recession hit our local courses had to change their business mode drastically. Before the recession their attitude in general was to heck with the locals we can stay afloat with the tourism trade. A lot of the retirees were dodging the local courses and driving out of town so to speak to play. When the recession hit these courses were begging for local play. Now there is a good balance some of the local courses did away with the motel package rates and went to local memberships and are doing good and some stay on the motel deal. Now last winter it was tough due to the weather but the spring made up for it. A lot of the snowbirds extended their stay by 3 weeks or so due to not playing any during the winter and it overlapped with our spring golf season. You could not hardly get a tee time fromApril to the first of June even courses that were not on the motel packages were getting so much "overflow" play you could not get on there either. I also have noticed something that has changed down there. Used to be during the summer you could play all day on any course and not see anyone. Now there are more and more people playing in the summer every year. We still have vastly discounted rates during the summer along with local rates. Even now it can be hard to get a tee time during the morning hrs because all the retirees and older members play in the morning to get away from the heat. Golf is getting healthy in our area again

[TitlePured]

[quote name='cloozoe' timestamp='1404211474' post='9614215']
[quote name='ctmason_98' timestamp='1404154165' post='9609177']
[quote name='Soloman1' timestamp='1404136668' post='9607073']
Tiger had no effect on sales or players. Golf total equipment sales and players have declined throughout his career. The only effect he had was on his own wallet and the wallet of other players as television advertising rates increased, leading to bigger purses.

Now, that was not a negative commentary about Tiger, simply the facts. He is/was not the Messiah of golf revenue.

Arnold Palmer is "The King" because he did more in his prime to grow the golf industry, including equipment sales, TV, endorsements, course construction and increase players and rounds per year than anyone else.
[/quote]

This needs to be stickied something because is the biggest fallacy about the game for both those "on the inside" and those looking at golf as some sort of successful model. Tiger Woods did not...repeat, DID NOT bring more people to the game in any measurable way. It cannot be stated any more simply.
[/quote]

Have no idea whether this is true or not, but would love to see the data that purports to prove it.
[/quote]

This is true from what I have seen and read. The Master PGA pro that I worked for mentioned this on multiple occasions and pointed to numbers provided by the PGA of America to back it up. Tiger provided marketing/ advertising/ viewing interest to the PGA Tour and himself, not golf as a whole. The golf boom was in the 80s.

[tlaxa]

I would have to agree that golf's popularity is on a decline. Just this past Holiday weekend my foursome was able to make a tee time on Friday for primetime tee times on Saturday and Sunday morning 8:00 am slots. There were plenty of tee times available at or around that time which never would have been the case a couple years ago. When we got there, there was no wait on the first tee and 1 or 2 groups ahead of us. We were able to finish both rounds in about 3:30 hours and when we got done I asked the starter where everyone was and he said it has been like this all season.

[skullshot]

[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1404215149' post='9614365']
Currently I live in the Grand Strand (Myrtle Beach area) and it is diferent down there. We have a lot of tourism and retirees. Now when the recession hit our local courses had to change their business mode drastically. Before the recession their attitude in general was to heck with the locals we can stay afloat with the tourism trade. A lot of the retirees were dodging the local courses and driving out of town so to speak to play. When the recession hit these courses were begging for local play. Now there is a good balance some of the local courses did away with the motel package rates and went to local memberships and are doing good and some stay on the motel deal. Now last winter it was tough due to the weather but the spring made up for it. A lot of the snowbirds extended their stay by 3 weeks or so due to not playing any during the winter and it overlapped with our spring golf season. You could not hardly get a tee time fromApril to the first of June even courses that were not on the motel packages were getting so much "overflow" play you could not get on there either. I also have noticed something that has changed down there. Used to be during the summer you could play all day on any course and not see anyone. Now there are more and more people playing in the summer every year. We still have vastly discounted rates during the summer along with local rates. Even now it can be hard to get a tee time during the morning hrs because all the retirees and older members play in the morning to get away from the heat. Golf is getting healthy in our area again
[/quote]

Courses here had the same "couldn't care less" attitude about locals before the recession. The head pro at the course I had a yearly membership at told me that if I and a tourist were both standing at the counter, he would always help the tourist first. That attitude changed in '09-'12 when there weren't any tourists, and courses started offering all sorts of deals to locals. Tourist golf has gotten healthier here, too, but not like it was before. I just don't think as many people have the disposable income they had 5-6 years ago.

[DevilDog]

Probably need more courses to close. In my area, about 400K people, we have 12 courses a mix of public and private. Do the math. How many players do you need to be able to sustain this many courses? When I came to this area 28 years ago, there were 6 courses. 6 more have been built since that time, 2 new private courses and 4 public. A bit of contraction may not hurt.

[bullrambler]

There are only two things that prevent more people from playing golf more often. Price of equipment and green fees. So to get more people out there introduce two people a year to the game. Lend them some clubs, play inexpensive courses with them. Encourage them to buy used clubs, experienced golf balls, and encourage them to practice so that they can build a game.

[ratspros]

Unless you have skin in the game, ie work for a clubs manufacturer, work at a course, etc etc how is golf shrinking a bad thing? For golfers having golf shrink means less busy courses, better conditions as less players equals less wear and tear on greens, bunkers etc etc... All good things!!!

Now if only this drop in numbers could come to Calgary where every course seems to be packed.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='ratspros' timestamp='1404955289' post='9670021']
Unless you have skin in the game, ie work for a clubs manufacturer, work at a course, etc etc how is golf shrinking a bad thing? For golfers having golf shrink means less busy courses, better conditions as less players equals less wear and tear on greens, bunkers etc etc... All good things!!!

Now if only this drop in numbers could come to Calgary where every course seems to be packed.
[/quote]

Eventually it means that a lot of really nice courses that were built in the last 30 years will get shut down.

[ratspros]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1404959217' post='9670465']
[quote name='ratspros' timestamp='1404955289' post='9670021']
Unless you have skin in the game, ie work for a clubs manufacturer, work at a course, etc etc how is golf shrinking a bad thing? For golfers having golf shrink means less busy courses, better conditions as less players equals less wear and tear on greens, bunkers etc etc... All good things!!!

Now if only this drop in numbers could come to Calgary where every course seems to be packed.
[/quote]

Eventually it means that a lot of really nice courses that were built in the last 30 years will get shut down.
[/quote]

I think courses built in that time frame will close down. Although I doubt that any "really nice" ones will. Good courses will always find golfers if they market themselves properly.

[golfs453]

[quote name='fvhowler' timestamp='1404134754' post='9606817']
[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1404095620' post='9604965']
I started playing golf in the 80's as a teenager and golf was not cool. It was considered an old man's sport and I didn't advertise the fact that I played golf. Then quite a good golfer came along called Eldrick Woods and golf seemed to be cool and no longer an old mans sport. Now that Tiger is no longer the force he was golf is doomed. I don't see it that way. I just think a lot of the people that may have picked up golf because of Tiger are calling it quits. Of course there are are many other reasons why golf is losing it's popularity but I think golf will just go back to what it was before Tiger.
[/quote]

I do hear a lot of comments about Tiger playing golf equals interests, sales and tremendous revenues for the sport. Can't really argue with that but it does seem artificial/unsustainable to hitch your wagon to one player. Tiger is not done, but his affect on the game maybe diminishing. Golf is finding its level, post Tiger.
[/quote]

Did they really have a choice? When one player is dominating and breaking records it's hard to ignore.

[golfs453]

[quote name='hoganswing' timestamp='1404095620' post='9604965']
I started playing golf in the 80's as a teenager and golf was not cool. It was considered an old man's sport and I didn't advertise the fact that I played golf. Then quite a good golfer came along called Eldrick Woods and golf seemed to be cool and no longer an old mans sport. Now that Tiger is no longer the force he was golf is doomed. I don't see it that way. I just think a lot of the people that may have picked up golf because of Tiger are calling it quits. Of course there are are many other reasons why golf is losing it's popularity but I think golf will just go back to what it was before Tiger.
[/quote]

Good post. Maybe golf just peaked during Tiger's dominate years. Couple of questions: Prior to Tiger, where all 4 rounds of golf televised? Was golf as global as it appears to be now?