Golf is dying: "lost 5 million players in the last decade... another 5 million will quit in the next

[thug the bunny]

^^^Football is getting out of hand. Last weekend my course was packed all day long on Sat, and wide open on Sun. One more personal benefit for my giving up that nasty sport.

[jewofgolf]

[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1412165496' post='10216871']
[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1412092376' post='10212007']
[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1412088328' post='10211603']
[quote name='Mario Good Times' timestamp='1398260263' post='9150521']
The less people play golf the better pricing and more tee times available for me.
[/quote]

I'm not sure your math is correct with this one.
[/quote]

His "math" is perfect,,,,,,,,, up to the point where his course gets so little business it has to close,,,,,,,,,,
[/quote]
His math isn't correct. Less golfers will not mean cheaper prices. That's not how it works.
[/quote]

That's exactly how it works. ECON 101 - as the quantity demanded at a given price falls, the demand curve shifts downward. The supply curve will usually shift in the long run as a response, but prices will PRACTICALLY NEVER increase once something starts down the road of decline.

Golf is becoming inferior to other activities and as such will be seeing prices go down. Albeit, there will be some decline to the quality of courses in all likelihood, but overall prices should fall and availability will increase.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1412165496' post='10216871']
[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1412092376' post='10212007']
[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1412088328' post='10211603']
[quote name='Mario Good Times' timestamp='1398260263' post='9150521']
The less people play golf the better pricing and more tee times available for me.
[/quote]

I'm not sure your math is correct with this one.
[/quote]

His "math" is perfect,,,,,,,,, up to the point where his course gets so little business it has to close,,,,,,,,,,
[/quote]
His math isn't correct. Less golfers will not mean cheaper prices. That's not how it works.
[/quote]

Sorry but that's exactly how the law of "supply and demand" works.

When supply is greater than the demand prices go DOWN. Vice versa and prices go up.

[duffer987]

[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1412183198' post='10218331']
^^^Football is getting out of hand. Last weekend my course was packed all day long on Sat, and wide open on Sun. One more personal benefit for my giving up that nasty sport.
[/quote]

Indeed. West coast means 10am or 1pm, so it seems on Sundays people don't bother regardless of start time for the Raiders and 49ers.
I'll just DVR the Hawks when i can and one other game if I want. Can still get my fill of 5 games a week if I so choose.

Actually teed off at 1-ish a couple weekends ago and we had a sub 4hr round. March through August not a chance that happens.

[mr_divots]

[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1412181374' post='10218197']
^C'mon this is hardly the first time you'd have seen this. Golf is seasonal to a lot of people.
Football (both NCAA/NFL) signals the start of autumn for lots of folks - even see it around here and we don't have weather as such.

When I started playing in the mid-90s back in BC (I'm sure those who have played way longer could indicate the same) we definitely did have seasons, by the end of Sept a lot of people had brought the shutters down on their golf year. That's no indication it is dying.
[/quote]
Certainly, I've come to expect the seasonality of golf. What I cannot understand is the last 80 degree days of the year and people watching the T.V. over something there are 18 games or whatever it is. There will be more of them to come!
Get out while we can! It's great to have the place to yourself, but the longterm viability starts to become a concern. Do they start closing the courses before the weather forces them due to lack of demand/profits? Do they open it all up to FootGolf? Save us...

[Break81]

Golf had a bubble just like the housing market. Tiger came and everyone was picking up a set and hitting the course. Tiger is now not covered as much and not the new kid on the sports mountain any longer. All we have is a reset of where golf should be, and in fact is probably still ahead of where it would have been without Tiger.

It's a sport that is completely open to all comers. Here in Socal , courses are less crowded, but far from empty or struggling. You do have plenty of discounted rates after 10:00 which wasn't the case in the early 2000's but play is still up vs the early 1990's.

Course have gotten creative such as 1 local course has a "Nine and Dine" - 9 holes on Monday afternoon and dinner with Monday night football. Another course has a 5-hole rate the last 90 minutes of daylight. Golf is never going to outpace less expensive sports but it is far from exclusive to anyone who wants to play.

[Frankensteins Monster]

[quote name='jewofgolf' timestamp='1412183631' post='10218373']
[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1412165496' post='10216871']
[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1412092376' post='10212007']
[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1412088328' post='10211603']
[quote name='Mario Good Times' timestamp='1398260263' post='9150521']
The less people play golf the better pricing and more tee times available for me.
[/quote]

I'm not sure your math is correct with this one.
[/quote]

His "math" is perfect,,,,,,,,, up to the point where his course gets so little business it has to close,,,,,,,,,,
[/quote]
His math isn't correct. Less golfers will not mean cheaper prices. That's not how it works.
[/quote]

That's exactly how it works. ECON 101 - as the quantity demanded at a given price falls, the demand curve shifts downward. The supply curve will usually shift in the long run as a response, but prices will PRACTICALLY NEVER increase once something starts down the road of decline.

Golf is becoming inferior to other activities and as such will be seeing prices go down. Albeit, there will be some decline to the quality of courses in all likelihood, but overall prices should fall and availability will increase.
[/quote]
Golf rounds decline, costs stay same, or increase, prices must increase or course will close. Simple economics.

[jewofgolf]

Sorry but as rounds decline, costs fall to attract more of the market.The courses are making more profit than required to stay open currently. They will reduce the price to be competitive until they are no longer profitable enough to stay open. Once this happens, they close.

There is no logical businessperson out there who sees participation falling and chooses to increase prices.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1412249844' post='10222781']
[quote name='jewofgolf' timestamp='1412183631' post='10218373']
[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1412165496' post='10216871']
[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1412092376' post='10212007']
[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1412088328' post='10211603']
I'm not sure your math is correct with this one.
[/quote]

His "math" is perfect,,,,,,,,, up to the point where his course gets so little business it has to close,,,,,,,,,,
[/quote]
His math isn't correct. Less golfers will not mean cheaper prices. That's not how it works.
[/quote]

That's exactly how it works. ECON 101 - as the quantity demanded at a given price falls, the demand curve shifts downward. The supply curve will usually shift in the long run as a response, but prices will PRACTICALLY NEVER increase once something starts down the road of decline.

Golf is becoming inferior to other activities and as such will be seeing prices go down. Albeit, there will be some decline to the quality of courses in all likelihood, but overall prices should fall and availability will increase.
[/quote]
Golf rounds decline, costs stay same, or increase, prices must increase or course will close. Simple economics.
[/quote]

Well, you got one thing right. "Simple" [size=4] [/size][size=4] [/size]

You're the kind of guy who thinks, when demand is low, that you have to charge more so you can make the same money you did before. i.e. to sell $100 worth of widgets @ $10 per, I have to sell 10 widgets. Since business is slow and I can apparently only sell 5 widgets I'll have to charge $20 each. [size=4] [/size]

[size=4]So you end up selling ZERO widgets and closing up shop because the guy down the block IS selling them for $5, taking a lower profit margin, in order to keep his doors open until business improves. [/size]

[size=4]It's OK. You just don't get it. I don't get it sometimes either. Doesn't make you a bad person,,,,,,,,,,,, [/size]

[Hot Rod 71]

Gopherguts and Jewofgolf are 100% right.

Many businesses attempt to charge more for a given product when demand decreases.

These are the businesses that end up closing their doors while the business down the road that drops prices in order to attract more business will weather the storm.

I've seen it numerous times. The "raising prices when business is slow" is a knee-jerk reaction that never works.

[QuigleyDU]

Well, you got one thing right. "Simple"

You're the kind of guy who thinks, when demand is low, that you have to charge more so you can make the same money you did before. i.e. to sell $100 worth of widgets @ $10 per, I have to sell 10 widgets. Since business is slow and I can apparently only sell 5 widgets I'll have to charge $20 each.

So you end up selling ZERO widgets and closing up shop because the guy down the block IS selling them for $5, taking a lower profit margin, in order to keep his doors open until business improves.

It's OK. You just don't get it. I don't get it sometimes either. Doesn't make you a bad person,,,,,,,,,,,,


Haha. This makes perfect sense IF you want to understand it. But only IF.

[ChipDriver]

All of you are wrong. I've seen these things happen in the past around here:

If demand drops - the first thing that a course will do is to cut staff....and reduce costs.
Then they will reduce maintenance and crappier conditions will be evident.
Then they will clear out the pro shop and cut dry goods (stop stocking as many balls/clubs/shirts/shoes etc.).
The last resort will be reducing greens fees b/c these are the principle money makers...and they won't let this go on for very long - a couple months at most. This is a last gasp to drive more players/rounds back to the golf course.
If that doesn't work to drive up demand (and hit profit targets) the owners of the golf course will let the bank foreclose on it and let them sell it to owner operators OR sell it to real estate developers.

But those people who think they will get to play cheaper golf more often - are kidding themselves...if it happens it's only b/c the course is about to shut down.

[pilot25]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1412294112' post='10226683']
All of you are wrong. I've seen these things happen in the past around here:

If demand drops - the first thing that a course will do is to cut staff....and reduce costs.
Then they will reduce maintenance and crappier conditions will be evident.
Then they will clear out the pro shop and cut dry goods (stop stocking as many balls/clubs/shirts/shoes etc.).
The last resort will be reducing greens fees b/c these are the principle money makers...and they won't let this go on for very long - a couple months at most. This is a last gasp to drive more players/rounds back to the golf course.
If that doesn't work to drive up demand (and hit profit targets) the owners of the golf course will let the bank foreclose on it and let them sell it to owner operators OR sell it to real estate developers.

But those people who think they will get to play cheaper golf more often - are kidding themselves...if it happens it's only b/c the course is about to shut down.
[/quote]

This is absolutely right and the fact so many courses go down the same path is sad. The way to increase customers to put out a better product not dilute the one you have. History repeats itself constantly in this manner. That's why golf pros shouldn't run courses. Business professionals should.

[Break81]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1412294112' post='10226683']
All of you are wrong. I've seen these things happen in the past around here:

If demand drops - the first thing that a course will do is to cut staff....and reduce costs.
Then they will reduce maintenance and crappier conditions will be evident.
Then they will clear out the pro shop and cut dry goods (stop stocking as many balls/clubs/shirts/shoes etc.).
The last resort will be reducing greens fees b/c these are the principle money makers...and they won't let this go on for very long - a couple months at most. This is a last gasp to drive more players/rounds back to the golf course.
If that doesn't work to drive up demand (and hit profit targets) the owners of the golf course will let the bank foreclose on it and let them sell it to owner operators OR sell it to real estate developers.

But those people who think they will get to play cheaper golf more often - are kidding themselves...if it happens it's only b/c the course is about to shut down.
[/quote]
It really depends on your geographical location. When things were good the golf market in Socal was raking in the dough. Less golfers = more competition to attract the current market share = more reduced tee times online (golfnow / groupgolfer / click for tee times). It's cheap advertising and the courses still are making money, just not boat loads as they did when you couldn't get a tee time unless you book 7-10 day ahead of time.

Now I do agree some courses cut back on caring for the course, and some do so here in California and say they are being "drought friendly". Hey as long as tee boxes , fairways and greens are in good shape I see no problem with it. I am sure there are other markets deeply effect by less play, but some location like Socal are doing fine.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1412294112' post='10226683']
All of you are wrong. I've seen these things happen in the past around here:

If demand drops - the first thing that a course will do is to cut staff....and reduce costs.
Then they will reduce maintenance and crappier conditions will be evident.
Then they will clear out the pro shop and cut dry goods (stop stocking as many balls/clubs/shirts/shoes etc.).
The last resort will be reducing greens fees b/c these are the principle money makers...and they won't let this go on for very long - a couple months at most. This is a last gasp to drive more players/rounds back to the golf course.
If that doesn't work to drive up demand (and hit profit targets) the owners of the golf course will let the bank foreclose on it and let them sell it to owner operators OR sell it to real estate developers.

But those people who think they will get to play cheaper golf more often - are kidding themselves...if it happens it's only b/c the course is about to shut down.
[/quote]

No one is suggesting the course wouldn't cut back on COSTS first or that greens fees wouldn't be the last thing cut in an attempt to stay in business. It's called "cash flow". No cash coming in is a sure way to close your doors earlier. Cutting prices AT LEAST keeps the place running and hopefully once the worm turns you can go back to "business as usual" and raise your prices back up.

The POINT is though that a business does NOT RAISE prices to make up for lack of customers. It is a SURE road to failure.

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1412303449' post='10227555']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1412294112' post='10226683']
All of you are wrong. I've seen these things happen in the past around here:

If demand drops - the first thing that a course will do is to cut staff....and reduce costs.
Then they will reduce maintenance and crappier conditions will be evident.
Then they will clear out the pro shop and cut dry goods (stop stocking as many balls/clubs/shirts/shoes etc.).
The last resort will be reducing greens fees b/c these are the principle money makers...and they won't let this go on for very long - a couple months at most. This is a last gasp to drive more players/rounds back to the golf course.
If that doesn't work to drive up demand (and hit profit targets) the owners of the golf course will let the bank foreclose on it and let them sell it to owner operators OR sell it to real estate developers.

But those people who think they will get to play cheaper golf more often - are kidding themselves...if it happens it's only b/c the course is about to shut down.
[/quote]

No one is suggesting the course wouldn't cut back on COSTS first or that greens fees wouldn't be the last thing cut in an attempt to stay in business. It's called "cash flow". No cash coming in is a sure way to close your doors earlier. Cutting prices AT LEAST keeps the place running and hopefully once the worm turns you can go back to "business as usual" and raise your prices back up.

The POINT is though that a business does NOT RAISE prices to make up for lack of customers. It is a SURE road to failure.
[/quote]

I agree- you are right. Nevertheless - that point and yours is irrelevant to the thread - the industry in general is on a downturn. We all have a front row seat. To me discounted tee times in exchange for discounted conditions is not a good compromise or benefit, it's simply getting what you're paying for.....paying less for less. The sport is presently in a downturn and the only places where it's still pristine is at the elite clubs.

On a different but related note - a few months ago people were wondering why the US Open isn't played more often on public courses....it's b/c they are turning back into cow pastures or disappearing.

Not sure if you agree with me - but the Fling Golf and the Foot Golf (soccer ball golf thing) is such a desperate attempt by golf courses to remain viable. Sad.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1412304071' post='10227633']
[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1412303449' post='10227555']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1412294112' post='10226683']
All of you are wrong. I've seen these things happen in the past around here:

If demand drops - the first thing that a course will do is to cut staff....and reduce costs.
Then they will reduce maintenance and crappier conditions will be evident.
Then they will clear out the pro shop and cut dry goods (stop stocking as many balls/clubs/shirts/shoes etc.).
The last resort will be reducing greens fees b/c these are the principle money makers...and they won't let this go on for very long - a couple months at most. This is a last gasp to drive more players/rounds back to the golf course.
If that doesn't work to drive up demand (and hit profit targets) the owners of the golf course will let the bank foreclose on it and let them sell it to owner operators OR sell it to real estate developers.

But those people who think they will get to play cheaper golf more often - are kidding themselves...if it happens it's only b/c the course is about to shut down.
[/quote]

No one is suggesting the course wouldn't cut back on COSTS first or that greens fees wouldn't be the last thing cut in an attempt to stay in business. It's called "cash flow". No cash coming in is a sure way to close your doors earlier. Cutting prices AT LEAST keeps the place running and hopefully once the worm turns you can go back to "business as usual" and raise your prices back up.

The POINT is though that a business does NOT RAISE prices to make up for lack of customers. It is a SURE road to failure.
[/quote]

I agree- you are right. Nevertheless - that point and yours is irrelevant to the thread - the industry in general is on a downturn. We all have a front row seat. To me discounted tee times in exchange for discounted conditions is not a good compromise or benefit, it's simply getting what you're paying for.....paying less for less. The sport is presently in a downturn and the only places where it's still pristine is at the elite clubs.

On a different but related note - a few months ago people were wondering why the US Open isn't played more often on public courses....it's b/c they are turning back into cow pastures or disappearing.

Not sure if you agree with me - but the Fling Golf and the Foot Golf (soccer ball golf thing) is such a desperate attempt by golf courses to remain viable. Sad.
[/quote]

So now you're the thread police ? [size=4] [/size]

I see, so my point, coming from simply replying to someone else' point, is irrelevant but your point(s) about "Fling" and "Foot" golf ARE relevant ? Got it. [size=4] [/size]

[ChipDriver]

Are you kidding - in the context of the thread - the Fling/Foot golf are examples of the desperate attempts of golf courses to remain viable - b/c (as the thread suggests) the industry is dying.

Your points - were debating minutia and semantics - which is focusing on trees - and missing the forest.

Got it?

[gopherguts]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1412305282' post='10227719']
Are you kidding - in the context of the thread - the Fling/Foot golf are examples of the desperate attempts of golf courses to remain viable - b/c (as the thread suggests) the industry is dying.

Your points - were debating minutia and semantics - which is focusing on trees - and missing the forest.

Got it?
[/quote]

Title is "Is golf dying ?"

Guy was talking about increasing prices to make up for fewer rounds being played.

That sounds like it's not on point ?

Get over yourself already,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, [size=4] [/size]

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1412306698' post='10227835']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1412305282' post='10227719']
Are you kidding - in the context of the thread - the Fling/Foot golf are examples of the desperate attempts of golf courses to remain viable - b/c (as the thread suggests) the industry is dying.

Your points - were debating minutia and semantics - which is focusing on trees - and missing the forest.

Got it?
[/quote]

Title is "Is golf dying ?"

Guy was talking about increasing prices to make up for fewer rounds being played.

That sounds like it's not on point ?

Get over yourself already,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
[/quote]

His nonsense adds nothing to the thread. It's gibberish. Yet you find some value to debating it - and feel it's relevant.

OK.

You win.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1412307703' post='10227931']
[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1412306698' post='10227835']
[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1412305282' post='10227719']
Are you kidding - in the context of the thread - the Fling/Foot golf are examples of the desperate attempts of golf courses to remain viable - b/c (as the thread suggests) the industry is dying.

Your points - were debating minutia and semantics - which is focusing on trees - and missing the forest.

Got it?
[/quote]

Title is "Is golf dying ?"

Guy was talking about increasing prices to make up for fewer rounds being played.

That sounds like it's not on point ?

Get over yourself already,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
[/quote]

His nonsense adds nothing to the thread. It's gibberish. Yet you find some value to debating it - and feel it's relevant.

OK.

You win.
[/quote]

His solution, as inaccurate as it is, is nonsense ? In a thread about golf dying ?

And your comments on "foot" and "fling" golf are on point ? Like those 2 are going to "revive" golf ?

Don't know about me winning but you're at least half right though - you lose.

[Frankensteins Monster]

A golf course isn't a product. There isn't product in a warehouse sitting and waiting to be sold. It's land, and a service. Hey, keep hoping there's less golfers to play on your course so you can get your hypothetical price drops and better tee times. I'll take no solace in seeing your courses close.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='Hot Rod 71' timestamp='1412276373' post='10225173']
Gopherguts and Jewofgolf are 100% right.

Many businesses attempt to charge more for [size=5][b]a given product[/b][/size] when demand decreases.

These are the businesses that end up closing their doors while the business down the road that drops prices in order to attract more business will weather the storm.

I've seen it numerous times. The "raising prices when business is slow" is a knee-jerk reaction that never works.
[/quote]
[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1412336150' post='10228669']
[size=5][b]A golf course isn't a product[/b][/size]. There isn't product in a warehouse sitting and waiting to be sold. It's land, and a service. Hey, keep hoping there's less golfers to play on your course so you can get your hypothetical price drops and better tee times. I'll take no solace in seeing your courses close.
[/quote]

Guess he got ya there Hot Rod,,,,, [size=4] [/size]

[mr_divots]

A golf course is most certainly a product. One that doesn't need to be restocked, but rather, nurtured, improved, and kept tight reins on costs.
The holistic view of the course, how it is presented to players, the staff, the clubhouse, the overall experience is the "product" with much focus on customer service at the most viable courses.

My home course, they are soliciting end of year pro shop credit purchase. Get $600 next year for $500 now, so they can nurture their product with course improvements where needed.

[jewofgolf]

"Product" is a universal term that applies to anything being traded. Every single thing in life behaves like a product with various peculiarities in the maintenance and storage of the product.

It bugs me that basic economics is misunderstood by many. Sorry to get off topic.

[IamMarkMac]

With regard to the whole supply and demand discussion, I think there's also an element that's not being discussed, that of time.

Supply and demand for a golf course varies on time of week and time of day. Therefore, you would have to compare apples to apples to make this discussion meaningful. A golf course can remain quite inflexible for primetime tee slots while giving plenty of discounts for non-primetime.

So, speaking to supply and demand, while I cannot imagine a golf course owner ever raising prices for primetime slots if he can't fill them, I can imagine him raising prices for primetime slots if non-primetime slots are increasingly unfilled and he has a long waiting list for the primetime slots.

[IamMarkMac]

Getting back to the original discussion, I'm not too worried about golf until such time as it stops being a sport of choice for seniors.

All this talk of people quitting the game and more to quit shortly, it's probably true in the 19-40 age bracket and that should be perfectly fine. As much as I loved this game, once college was over and I had to work, there was no time for golf and I quit. All my golf buddies did too. I don't know who can hold a job and raise a family and play golf regularly without a trust fund. Might be possible if you had a saint of a wife, but that's it.

But, fast forward to our early forties, we're coming back to the game. Not all of us, particularly those who had kids late, but we get out there now and we're excited about the game again. And frankly, we should be the target demographic of the industry. We've got money to spend, time to play and golf is often part of business at this level.

40+, that's where the metrics should start. If some 20something year old wants to drop golf to play video games or watch TV or go skateboarding or play more physical sports (basketball, soccer, etc), no problem. I did the same thing. The industry needs to stop chasing that guy. That guy is not a customer.

[ZenMasterCoop]

[quote name='IamMarkMac' timestamp='1412362924' post='10230803']

[b]But, fast forward to our early forties, we're coming back to the game. Not all of us, particularly those who had kids late, but we get out there now and we're excited about the game again. [/b] And frankly, we should be the target demographic of the industry. We've got money to spend, time to play and golf is often part of business at this level.

[/quote]

This describes me perfectly. I used to play 2x/week during the summer when I was home from college, dropped down to about once or twice a month (sometimes) less the first few years out of college, and then maybe once/year on vacation since then.

I just turned 40 two months ago and my wife got me a new set of clubs for my birthday. At least she thought her gift card would cover it. I've played 9 times since mid-August and I'm excited about playing more. I forgot how much I enjoyed playing golf even if I'm not that good at it. My wife and I don't have any kids and we both work, so we've got the money and the time to go out and play.

Excellent post.

[IamMarkMac]

[quote name='ZenMasterCoop' timestamp='1412365993' post='10231011']
[quote name='IamMarkMac' timestamp='1412362924' post='10230803']
[b]But, fast forward to our early forties, we're coming back to the game. Not all of us, particularly those who had kids late, but we get out there now and we're excited about the game again. [/b] And frankly, we should be the target demographic of the industry. We've got money to spend, time to play and golf is often part of business at this level.

[/quote]

This describes me perfectly. I used to play 2x/week during the summer when I was home from college, dropped down to about once or twice a month (sometimes) less the first few years out of college, and then maybe once/year on vacation since then.

I just turned 40 two months ago and my wife got me a new set of clubs for my birthday. At least she thought her gift card would cover it. I've played 9 times since mid-August and I'm excited about playing more. I forgot how much I enjoyed playing golf even if I'm not that good at it. My wife and I don't have any kids and we both work, so we've got the money and the time to go out and play.

Excellent post.
[/quote]

Even better for golf, a pair of DINKs ( Double Income No Kids).

I looked at the original post and saw the following reasons for this post:

[color=#282828]1) Too hard[/color]
[color=#282828]2) Too expensive[/color]
[color=#282828]3) Takes too long[/color]
[color=#282828]4) Women don't feel welcome[/color]

[color=#282828]1. Too hard - When you're older, you're more patient. You're more willing to work to attain something you want (while at the same time not willing to invest any time in something you don't). So once you know you want to be a good golfer, it won't be too hard.[/color]

[color=#282828]2. Too expensive - While I realize some people are not so financially successful, I think it's a good assumption to say that a typical 40+ has more buying power than a typical 20+. [/color]

[color=#282828]3. Takes too long - 20+ are low on the work totem pole. They rarely have say about their schedule and have larger groups of friends with more social obligations (plus are probably actively dating). 40+ are managers, owners and often have control over schedule. [/color]

[color=#282828]4. Women don't feel welcome - I find this one particularly interesting. I agree that 20+ women don't feel welcome. They're generally approached condescendingly by older male golfers and, if they're pretty, hit on (badly, I might add). The 40+ women though I find to be a different case. Probably due to no small part that they're older, they're more carefree, more relaxed and frankly, don't care what old men think. I see plenty of groups of 40+ women having a grand time on the course while not so many 20+ groups. Not to say that we shouldn't welcome 20+ women (not at all) but I believe that this, just like the other issues, is solved with age.[/color]

[mr_divots]

^^^ Despite claims to the contrary, women are still largely raising kids until an older age when they later take up golf.