Manual de la Torre Method

[wmblake2000]

 

Wmblake: Is getting up on the right toe still a reaction to the swing or a conscious effort?

 

Let me quote from Hayes book: "...this response from the right foot is not done with a great deal of exertion."

 

I take this to mean 2 things. As you get used to it, it happens easily. But for me learning it, I have to deliberately do it. But it's not a great deal of exertion. It comes pretty easily.

 

I infer from reading these two books that MDLT does not ignore some details of the swing. Eg, he talks about r hand's role in not laying club off and weight distribution and shoulders rotating around the center. It's just that he seems to focus on swinging the club around the center on an inclined plane (that varies club to club). He just doesn't force much. This r toe is easy but I do have to attend to it at this point a little as it wasn't happening as a response.

 

But sense is that the point is to remain focused on the big ideas and that a point being made is to keep your mind clear and unstressed and you body relaxed.

[juststeve]

wmblake: Don't get too focused on body positions, its the motion of the club you should focus on. Why? Because different bodies will respond differently even when the club is moved correctly. If you move the club properly you will hit a good shot even if your finish position is not text book.

 

As to the left toe position, I understand that is merely and indication that you have gotten through the shot. Get through the shot and you will find yourself with your weight on the front foot, facing the target, and your trail foot will be in the up on the toe position. When I'm not getting through the shot it is invariably because my left arm (I'm right handed) has taken over the forward swing and my right arm is not doing its part. Swing the whole club forward, in the direction of the target, using both arms, and you may get to the position you covet.

 

Steve

[wmblake2000]

Steve, thx. It is easy to get one's focus to wander from club to elsewhere. It just seems to me that new motions in the body that support the club swinging are not always automatic. At least not in my experience thus far. They take some intention. But I wholly take your point. The idea is to swing the club around the center on an inclined circle and the power of this is the simplicity and positive focus on this. I would like to have met Manny. I am sure it was a fun way to learn and that he had a great wisdom about how to teach.

[5UnderPar]

Thanks Manuel, rest in peace. You have made golf fun for me again.

[steka]

Where can I get manuels dvd without importing it from the us. I'm based in Germany

[SuperPunch]

Was able to play a couple times this past week and felt like I had a few revelations. One being staying centered but letting the body react. Before, I was really focusing on not swaying off the ball, but was accidentally keeping my lower half from turning at all. Near the end of the first round, I just let the body do whatever it wanted, but still making sure my center point wasn't swaying. Rotating the body around a fixed post if you will. The result definitely made my swing feel much more free and kept my lower back from hurting as much, which in part I think was owed to the hips being fixed beforehand.

 

The second revelation was the wrist c0ck. I hadn't been feeling as if I was cocking my wrist necessarily before, but yesterday on the range before my round I visualized Steve Stricker's action. I wasn't keeping my wrists from hinging, but I definitely made it an intention to look more like his action. The ball striking results were immediate. I also think it makes it easier to swing the whole club forward and get a better picture of the arc that you're swinging on.

 

Also, I was thinking, with all the rage about Bryson Dechambeau's swing following the Master's, he looks an awful lot like a MDLT type swing. It makes sense to me with him being inspired partly by Moe Norman, and Moe Norman's experience with MDLT. His swing looks arm driven and simplified by swinging up and down the same arc.

[The Pearl]

Was able to play a couple times this past week and felt like I had a few revelations. One being staying centered but letting the body react. Before, I was really focusing on not swaying off the ball, but was accidentally keeping my lower half from turning at all. Near the end of the first round, I just let the body do whatever it wanted, but still making sure my center point wasn't swaying. Rotating the body around a fixed post if you will. The result definitely made my swing feel much more free and kept my lower back from hurting as much, which in part I think was owed to the hips being fixed beforehand. The second revelation was the wrist c0ck. I hadn't been feeling as if I was cocking my wrist necessarily before, but yesterday on the range before my round I visualized Steve Stricker's action. I wasn't keeping my wrists from hinging, but I definitely made it an intention to look more like his action. The ball striking results were immediate. I also think it makes it easier to swing the whole club forward and get a better picture of the arc that you're swinging on. Also, I was thinking, with all the rage about Bryson Dechambeau's swing following the Master's, he looks an awful lot like a MDLT type swing. It makes sense to me with him being inspired partly by Moe Norman, and Moe Norman's experience with MDLT. His swing looks arm driven and simplified by swinging up and down the same arc.

 

 

SP,

 

Remember that I coming from the approach of "been there, done that" so my following comments are not meant to represent perfect command of Manny's methods. I hesitate to comment, but I think the MDLT discussions are on a much more mature level than most of the rest of the instructional forum so I will opine with my usual disclaimer that JustSteve may interject and correct me as he should.

 

I would probably recommend you avoid any conscious thought of "wrist set". I also toyed with various feels of wrist set and coincidentally tried what you did in trying to imitate a Stricker-like move. I always have had active hands and wrists AND my main flaw has always been flinging the hands at the ball. Of course, by my logic they were connected. If I could make the hands/wrists less active throughout the back swing than they by extension, they could be less active at the bottom of the swing was my thinking. Like you, I had some initial success on the range and some spotty success on the course. Eventually, the old flaws reappeared.

 

The hands hold the club, nothing more, and the wrists should set naturally without any conscious thought as you use both hands to swing the clubhead over your right shoulder. You can't get the clubhead over your shoulder without the wrists setting. FOR ME, flinging the hands at the ball at the bottom of the arc is a result of not using the upper arms to swing the entire club towards the target, but rather initiating the forward swing with the shoulders.

 

Rather than thinking about the wrist set in the back swing, try to visualize what the club is doing. If you get the club moving on the correct arc over your shoulder, your wrists can't help buy do the right thing. Don't try to make any part of your body "do" something. Again, I spent many, many range sessions trying to add my own tweeks to the methods and not a single one of them stuck or were productive in the end.

 

I hope this makes some sense.

[SuperPunch]

No, it does make sense and I do appreciate the insight and advice for sure. I think before, I may have still been cocking my wrists intentionally and it would cause my plane to get out of sorts. On video, there would always be this little twirl or club adjustment at the top for some reason and by taking the wrists out of I wasn't getting that move. But as you said and is basically in the book, "don't try and make any part of your body do something." I need to keep reminding myself.

 

I do agree this thread has a more mature level and can't thank you and JustSteve enough for your thoughts and experiences that you guys have shared. I've been doing this method for a month now and can't remember having more fun playing and practicing than I've had doing this.

[The Pearl]

No, it does make sense and I do appreciate the insight and advice for sure. I think before, I may have still been cocking my wrists intentionally and it would cause my plane to get out of sorts. On video, there would always be this little twirl or club adjustment at the top for some reason and by taking the wrists out of I wasn't getting that move. But as you said and is basically in the book, "don't try and make any part of your body do something." I need to keep reminding myself. I do agree this thread has a more mature level and can't thank you and JustSteve enough for your thoughts and experiences that you guys have shared. I've been doing this method for a month now and can't remember having more fun playing and practicing than I've had doing this.

 

As I have repeated on here and consistently to myself all the time, is that it is all there in the book. Nothing needs to be added or over analyzed. The hard part is the mental hurdle that that something so complex as the golf swing can be executed proficiently with such a simple and precise process. There is an exercise in the book which I have rediscovered and that is the setting the club about 12 in behind the ball, on the arc, and swinging the club back over the shoulder and back to the original spot SLOWLY so that you can fully capture the feeling/sensation/visual aspect of moving the club correctly.

 

Also, the "corrections" part of the book is invaluable. Depending on your ball fight, all the trouble shooting is right there.

 

How is your ball flight?

[SuperPunch]

The ball flight has been semi inconsistent. My main miss has been a big pull, and I'm pretty certain I'm getting my shoulders involved and smothering the ball. That's been the hardest part for me, keeping the shoulders out of it. My other miss, and it's not as much, is a slice, which I think is from the club coming back way too flat and not actually swinging it on the plane as I'm supposed to do.

 

When I'm hitting it well or at least better, it's more of a little cut at the end, though yesterday with the "Stricker" thought, there was a little draw action.

 

I will give that drill a try. It did intrigue me when I saw it and would be beneficial.

 

The funny thing with this method is before I picked it up, I'd always be working on something on my swing even when I was just by myself standing on the porch or talking to my wife — working on the pivot, trying to lead with the elbow, etc, used to drive her nuts. But now, since it's a reaction to the club and I don't carry one around the house, I almost find myself with nothing to do at times.

[juststeve]

Was able to play a couple times this past week and felt like I had a few revelations. One being staying centered but letting the body react. Before, I was really focusing on not swaying off the ball, but was accidentally keeping my lower half from turning at all. Near the end of the first round, I just let the body do whatever it wanted, but still making sure my center point wasn't swaying. Rotating the body around a fixed post if you will. The result definitely made my swing feel much more free and kept my lower back from hurting as much, which in part I think was owed to the hips being fixed beforehand.

 

The second revelation was the wrist c0ck. I hadn't been feeling as if I was cocking my wrist necessarily before, but yesterday on the range before my round I visualized Steve Stricker's action. I wasn't keeping my wrists from hinging, but I definitely made it an intention to look more like his action. The ball striking results were immediate. I also think it makes it easier to swing the whole club forward and get a better picture of the arc that you're swinging on.

 

Also, I was thinking, with all the rage about Bryson Dechambeau's swing following the Master's, he looks an awful lot like a MDLT type swing. It makes sense to me with him being inspired partly by Moe Norman, and Moe Norman's experience with MDLT. His swing looks arm driven and simplified by swinging up and down the same arc.

 

Punch:

 

When I find myself moving off the ball in the back swing its because I am swinging back with my arms instead of my hands. Return the responsibility to my hands and, keep my weight equally distributed right and left, and I find myself coiled and centered over the ball. Making the hands responsible for the back swing results in proper weight distribution at the top. From there is is swing the club forward with the arms and the body responds.

 

Everything Manny taught has a reason. The better you can execute each detail, omitting none, the better you will hit the ball..

 

Steve

[birly-shirly]

One of the things I've liked most about revisiting Manuel's teachings is what it's done for my short game. I've always felt that my ball striking with full swings was much better than around the green with chips and partial wedges. However, I cannot overstate the benefits for my game of Manuel's advice to visualise the ball flying low to the target, never up in the air.

 

This is one of those things that seems to have clicked for me this year and even with a lob wedge I visualise the ball rolling along the ground towards the target, as if I were striking it with a hockey stick rather than a lofted golf club. That visualisation just seems to co-ordinate perfectly with the feel of the arms swinging the club with passive wrists. With really no other thoughts, I seem to be getting all the benefits talked about in other, more seemingly complicated teaching methods, of an impact in which the bounce of the club just bruises the turf and tosses the ball softly in the air. It has made these shots a joy to practice - and that helps too.

[Bigmean]

I just got the e book. I am self taught until last year and I have had 3/4 Lessons with a good guy but the last one left me a little sour. I am Only just starting (made it to stance part) but being a self taught feel guy I am really accepting of what he is saying. I have a lot of bad thoughts and too many thoughts in general over the ball, and during the swing, I hope this helps.

 

I was also going to send a video montes way for some online lessons. Can you follow manny's principles, thoughts and general "Feelings" and combine other instruction with his? My general feeling is not really and maybe give this my full attention first? I would like to try both though as I just see it all as more information for me to figure out how to apply how and where it works.

[juststeve]

Bigmean:

 

So I'm not misunderstood, I have read almost all of Monte's posts and seen most of his videos and formed a very favorable opinion of him as a teacher. If you were to say that you have no interest in Manny's concept and want a recommendation for a good online instructor I would recommend Monte without qualification. He is very sound.

 

If you are interested in learning Manuel de la Torres swing concept you should avoid Monte, any other teacher that doesn't explicitly teach the Manuel de la Torre concept, and almost all of the swing instruction you find on the internet, in books other than Manny's, or magazines. Manny's concept is holistic. Your success will depend first on understanding the various elements of the concept and then learning to do the few things he requires exactly and well. If you learn the concept there is no need to add to it or subtract from it, in fact adding to or subtracting from will make you worse, not better.

 

Read the book several times. Make sure you understand his terminology because he is exacting in his choice of words and some of the words he uses have idiosyncratic meanings. Pause as you're reading to visualize what he is saying, then after understanding what you are trying to do, learn to do it and nothing else.

 

When people fail with Manny's system it is almost always because they think they can improve upon what Manny has written by adding some other tidbit, from some other teachers method to it. You can't. Either devote yourself to Manny's concept of follow another path. There are a lot of good teachers out there that teach other thing, and Monte is certainly one of them.

 

Steve

[wmblake2000]

Bigmean, I have taken in person and online lessons from Monte and have recently started studying MDLT approach - which I really like because of its simplicity and clarity.

 

Steve may well be right. He's taken lessons from MDLT and learned from him over a long period. I am just beginning to adopt these principles and am in that experimenting zone trying to mesh what I already know into mannys approach. So I am much more in this place of not quite sure how to sort all this out.

 

But what I personally think is that Montes ideas are not wholly antagonistic to Mannys except in one major way. Manny focuses you attention on the club as it swings and not on any feels. And there are details in the swing where they diverge a little - for example Monte will suggest early wrist hinge and Manny will suggest let it happen as a by product of the motion.

 

But I guess I agree with Steve. Choose one or the other. Both approaches will tend to focus your mind on a very limited number of basics and if you take them both on I would think you'll end up with a bunch of noise.

 

I would say the core benefit from Monte was he got me focused on a limited number of principles that as I learned them I improved a lot. Now with trying to apply Mannys ideas these principles are refined to an even simpler almost single idea.

[Bigmean]

Your last paragraph is what the optimist in me is thinking. I am a little further in mdlt book and what prompted all this for me was for first time ever I had 4 striaght rounds in the 70s, then backed that up with 89, 81, 80. So I have consistency issues and I have nothing to hang on. Oddly in my last round, I played much better when on the 4th hole I just said to myself you don't have a swing, there is the hole, hit it there and try to score pars knowing you can't hit it for s*** today. And my shots becamd better just from accepting I am doing. Nothing about a bad swing and I just want to get the ball in the hole. Very much similar to his vibes.

 

Also in reading the book, I feel like it is written for someone with Experience. Or maybe he is just relatable to all levels, but I loke coming across this knowing how to sorta play.

 

That said, I think I am leaning toward having monte clean me up some, reading the book well more than once, understanding it, and then taking the best swing I can into his mental approach. i just really do relate to his concepts which is why I am so interested.

[Bigmean]

I am getting further in the book and seeing where Steve is probably right. He is getting more swing specific than I was seeing to start. Love his approach, as an avid golf and self taught guy that had always been open to media and teaching I am stunned I hve never heard of this dude until 3 days ago.

[wmblake2000]

I have 2 MDLT books - his Understanding the Golf Swing and Learning Golf with Manual by John Hayes. They are in my brief case and go with me everywhere. The main challenge is retraining your brain to focus on club rather than feel. This will be a long term process for an old dog like me.

[Bigmean]

Oh my.....I went to range today to get video to send to monte....and we spent some time there, I only brought a 7 and driver because weather was looking really rough.

 

Anyway weather held out and I right off the bat started implementing the hands working together and arms (Elbows to shoulders) bringing it through. It started off thin, but straight, and it ended up being one of my best range sessions in a while. I may have done nothing more than quiet all my demons to just hands.....arms. Anytime a thought otherwise happened the swing failed. If I did it truly clear, thinking of nothing else, it looked good. I mean dead straight, some small fades, but nice contact and my body, weight, all that crap was never on my mind. Maybe it was the clearer mind, maybe it let natural athleticism takeover, who knows. But 40 pages or so read, and just winging it on range, and I have to say, something tangible happened.

 

On video the swing really is mine. It looks as usually does, but it felt effortless and simple and the result was not frustrating. Maybe passive hands? Anyway, I was sorta not expecting that. Sure I lost a few shots, but trust me if I was hitting it this straight and consistent I wouldn't have been poking around the academy section. I still feel like applying his principles to an established swing is a good thing, and the foreword by the lpga player sorta affirms that to me.

[SuperPunch]

Bigmean, I started this method about two months ago now and have read the book several times. I still need to read it many more. I've searched the web for years, took some lessons here and there and nothing has positively affected my game like this method. I also like Monte a lot and before starting this, kept up pretty religiously with Monte's videos and blog. So I don't think you can go wrong either way.

 

It's also been nice that Steve and Pearl have been more than willing to share their experiences and offer some help when you hit a roadblock, which is bound to happen. Currently I'm still fighting my natural tendency to want to tinker or improperly applying some of the method. Lately I've struggled because I went back to trying to hit positions on the backswing, etc, instead of just swinging the club properly and letting the club hit those spots naturally. It's much more of a mental battle than physical but even in this short time, I've had more fun playing, scored better and swung better than I have in my playing life.

[wmblake2000]

Mean, the other thing that I find really powerful about MLDT is the idea of the wrists staying passive and relaxed. On my best swings my whole upper body - shoulders, arms, wrists hands are very relaxed. I am just making a fluid, fast and free motion. I am hitting it farther than ever. The timing is pretty simple and I really think the only thing that screws it up is trying to force things.

 

What's funny is it's hard to trust the degree this approach seems to want. I think this means on some days your body may not be as relaxed as others and so you'll hit it shorter. Seems like I have to play what my body gives me on any given day. But the swing can be consistent if I accept this.

 

What I don't know is how this would be without the foundation from Monte where I corrected so many things. However getting a focus on the club and the rest of MLDT's basics just make total sense to me. Among the things that he says that really strike me as important is the idea of staying focused on the solution and what you're trying to do. This is the key to improving imo.

 

Pretty exciting stuff...

[bdcava]

One of the things I've liked most about revisiting Manuel's teachings is what it's done for my short game. I've always felt that my ball striking with full swings was much better than around the green with chips and partial wedges. However, I cannot overstate the benefits for my game of Manuel's advice to visualise the ball flying low to the target, never up in the air.

 

This is one of those things that seems to have clicked for me this year and even with a lob wedge I visualise the ball rolling along the ground towards the target, as if I were striking it with a hockey stick rather than a lofted golf club. That visualisation just seems to co-ordinate perfectly with the feel of the arms swinging the club with passive wrists. With really no other thoughts, I seem to be getting all the benefits talked about in other, more seemingly complicated teaching methods, of an impact in which the bounce of the club just bruises the turf and tosses the ball softly in the air. It has made these shots a joy to practice - and that helps too.

 

Picturing the ball traveling low was one of the most brilliant concepts I've ever come across.

[The Pearl]

I would echo JustSteve's comments about staying exclusively with Manuel's principles. As I have mentioned before, I have tried to add other's idea's and even a few of my own in order to try to enhance my results.

 

Big mistake. All I can do is encourage anybody to stay with the concepts.

 

Along my journey of "tweeking" the system, I came to some conclusions:

 

1. If I have thought of it, Manuel has thought of it and has either incorporated in his methods or has discarded it.

 

2. The very thing you are trying to "tweek" using another instructor's idea or your own adjustment, Manuel has probably incorporated it, usually in a more simplified way.

 

3. Most importantly, the whole purpose of his concepts is to free yourself from being a prisoner of your body by escaping to the simplicity of moving the club.

[birly-shirly]

Personally, I get the reluctance to commit wholly to a single book - however good. I also think it needn't be fatal to have a second pair of eyes offer suggestions - but you need to be careful what advice you act on, and how you integrate it.

 

I took a video lesson from Monte, and his main point for me was to get the club more vertical on the backswing. The easiest way for me to implement this, and to Monte's satisfaction, was to concentrate on Manuel's advice to swing the clubhead back with both hands (I had been underutilising the lower hand, which Manuel warns against).

 

As great as the book is, there is still a lot in there. A second pair of eyes might be what you need to point you in the right direction of what to work on. But I equally have to admit that there is fundamental value in the simplicity of Manuel's teachings. Easy to lose sight of that if you grow rabbit ears, but not, I think, inevitable.

[juststeve]

Shirly:

 

I think I have shared before that I learned to swing from Manny in the late 60's and continued to see him pretty regularly until his passing. I did it for the very reason you suggested, it is good to have another pair of eyes on your swing. His were the best for mine. In all of those years Manny never suggested that I do something new or different. Everything I needed to know to swing the club I knew after the first week with Manny. When we would meet there might be questions and reminders but no new Ideas. None we necessary because his concept is complete.

 

That a concept is simple doesn't make the execution easy. His is simple, (perhaps not as simple as some think), but execution requires work and occasional monitoring.

 

Steve

[wmblake2000]

In all of those years Manny never suggested that I do something new or different. Everything I needed to know to swing the club I knew after the first week with Manny. When we would meet there might be questions and reminders but no new Ideas. None we necessary because his concept is complete.

 

Steve

 

This approach - a long term, consistent focus on core principles is, in my experience, the single most important element of improving.

 

Steve, when you needed to remedy a flaw that is in your swing in a lesson with Manny would he say 'here's what you're doing wrong' or would he say 'you need to do this and such' and perhaps suggest how to do it?

[wmblake2000]

Personally, I get the reluctance to commit wholly to a single book - however good.

 

This is probably everyone's quandary who takes this up. It takes time to genuinely develop that kind of trust. For example I am torn between swinging arms vs turning shoulders. I get more speed swinging arms especially if I stay relaxed but it's easy to have the timing get off. But I actually think that MDLT's way is better - it will just take some time to fully embrace.

[juststeve]

In all of those years Manny never suggested that I do something new or different. Everything I needed to know to swing the club I knew after the first week with Manny. When we would meet there might be questions and reminders but no new Ideas. None we necessary because his concept is complete.

 

Steve

 

This approach - a long term, consistent focus on core principles is, in my experience, the single most important element of improving.

 

Steve, when you needed to remedy a flaw that is in your swing in a lesson with Manny would he say 'here's what you're doing wrong' or would he say 'you need to do this and such' and perhaps suggest how to do it?

 

I can't recall Manny ever telling me, or any other student for that matter, not to do something. He would just remind me about something I already knew but had drifted away from. The solution to the problem one is having is always within the concept. It's just a matter of execution.

 

Steve

[juststeve]

Personally, I get the reluctance to commit wholly to a single book - however good.

 

This is probably everyone's quandary who takes this up. It takes time to genuinely develop that kind of trust. For example I am torn between swinging arms vs turning shoulders. I get more speed swinging arms especially if I stay relaxed but it's easy to have the timing get off. But I actually think that MDLT's way is better - it will just take some time to fully embrace.

 

We don't swing our arms, we swing the club in the direction of our target with our arms. A subtle but important difference. Arms swinging can be accomplished without the club swinging in the direction of the target and often result in a club swinging well to the right of the target for a right handed golfer.

 

Steve

 

Steve

[wmblake2000]

Steve, thx for both comments. I was aware my focus had drifted from club to feel (shoulders/arms). This 'retraining' will take time! It's like building new connections in neural pathways. Expand feel to the image of the club swinging. Something like that.