Manual de la Torre Method

[Thoughtful Hacker]

There is a good article right here at WRX on where to put your swing focus on. Body oriented focus (arms, shoulders, hips, etc. ) doesn't work according to scientific research.

[Jasonic]

That's why the focus is the club swinging and the target, not the body.

[The Pearl]

Is there a difference between swinging the arms versus the shoulders? Is it semantics?

 

Of course everyone is different, but as I read MDLT and from experience, swinging the shoulders can be a death sentence for the swing. At one point, IIRC, Manny talks about swinging the shoulders as the cause of hitting the ball fat. In my case, swinging the shoulders causes me to pitch forward and force the right shoulder down to the ground. I have a terrible hit impulse and try to manipulate the club with my hands and thinking of the shoulders instead of the upper arms just feeds into that.

 

I realize that other posters have said they do have the thought of swinging the shoulders and it works for them but my advice to you is to just be aware of the above POSSIBILITY. In fact this is so bad in my case that I can't even think of the upper arms, I have had to distance myself from initiating the downswing with any part of my body above the waist because I just end up using my arms and hands.

 

I regard using the upper arms concept to be the best teaching intent that I have ever come across. With that said, of all of Manny's concepts it has been the most elusive. Like you, my hit impulse is world class and it is all shoulder driven. I am just not able to consistently separate/isolate the "upper arm" feeling from the "shoulder" feeling. Some days it is all there, other day's not even close. Transitioning to using the upper arms in the forward swing has always been a gray area. Much more nebulous as I move to the longer clubs. I am not sure I will ever conquer this last piece of my personal puzzle. Your advice is very good.

 

I re-read this thread today and went to the range. What I discovered is that I often have a tendency to aim right and then spin my shoulders left and basically pull it back to the target. I have actually played some decent golf this way but with this method I was inconsistent. When I squared up (it felt open) and swung the club to the target with my arms my results were good.

 

Make sure your fundamentals are correct, it could be a chicken or the egg thing.

 

 

Lots of wisdom here. When I took my lessons with Manuel, the first thing we worked on was aiming. I was consistently aiming way, way right of the target. I do tend to get sloppy in this area.

 

When he told me I was aiming way right, I frankly thought he was not able to see given that he was over 90. He than aimed me and it felt like I was aimed 30 yds left. I hit my first shot and pulled it into the trees on the left side of the range. I thought to myself, my goodness, he can't see a lick. He than told me I swung the club over there so swing it at the target. As God as my witness, I hit the flag I was aiming at on the range with my wedge with the next swing.

 

I listened from that point forward.

[Hoganstriker]

Most of the stuff in here about limited swing thoughts and simplification sounds so up my alley. Long live the teachings of MDLT. What a wise man he was!

[wmblake2000]

Here's my quandary with the focus on the club idea. Which I would like to agree with. I'm trying to work towards it.

 

My lifelong habit is to roll it off, come inside, then ott. I have almost zero awareness of this when I slide into it. This can feel to me like I get the club over r shoulder and start it on plane coming down. Feel isn't real.

 

So my question is, it can be tough to rely on your sense of the club. And to get the club where it goes back on a single plane (rather than a warped plane) takes me a) getting some objective feedback to recognize it's off track and b) becoming aware of the feel and physical motion needed to make a change.

 

MDLT might ask me what I am trying to do and why. I could answer that. But if I am not doing what I intend and if my sense of the club is invalid, then what? I have to learn how to get the club to do what I want.

 

This seems to me to take a mix of feel and an awareness of the club that can then transfer to more awareness of the club as you practice it. What does that r hand do to take it back on a single plane that ends up over the shoulder?

 

But if I simply relied on my feel of the club I'd stay stuck in a motion that doesn't work very well.

 

 

[nlk10010]

Lots of wisdom here. When I took my lessons with Manuel, the first thing we worked on was aiming. I was consistently aiming way, way right of the target. I do tend to get sloppy in this area.

 

When he told me I was aiming way right, I frankly thought he was not able to see given that he was over 90. He than aimed me and it felt like I was aimed 30 yds left. I hit my first shot and pulled it into the trees on the left side of the range. I thought to myself, my goodness, he can't see a lick. He than told me I swung the club over there so swing it at the target. As God as my witness, I hit the flag I was aiming at on the range with my wedge with the next swing.

 

I listened from that point forward.

 

Wait: You actually aim somewhere? Really??? Whoa, that's way too advanced for me: I'm concentrating on just hoping I can get the ball sort of in the air so that it looks, to all the senior citizens watching me tee off at the 9-hole, like I may know what I'm doing. I don't worry about the fact that my 5-hybrid shot only goes about 100 yards, with their vision they can't see past about 80 anyway. :) (Hey, I'm a SC too, just a joke).

 

Anyhow, on a point just above, if you just look at an overview of Manny's teachings you may be led to believe that, to get a decent shot, all you need to do is concentrate on the club, swing it back with the hands and forward with the upper arms, and off it goes. No doubt of prime importance, but you can try it, actually succeed more-or-less and still hit a chunk-shank (my specialty). Then you wonder why. If you went to Manny my guess is he would first have you do one of the many exercises in his book, in particular the one where you start the club head 12 inches from the ball, etc., aimed at getting you on the right plane. There are many finer aspects to the method that will take a lot of work (again, you can't hit the ball well if for some reason you're screwing up the planes). So, repeating I think what I said above, if you try implementing the main features of the MDLT method and still s*ck then it's most likely you've got to pore over that book and start working on the dirty little details (like for any other method).

[Thoughtful Hacker]

That's why the focus is the club swinging and the target, not the body.

 

Doesn't MDLT advocate starting the downswing with upper arms? That I believe is a band aide to fix the hit impulse and over the top move of average golfers. Any body oriented swing tip is a band aide.

Unfortunately, modern instruction is focused on big muscles and "body illusion". The art of swinging the clubhead effortlessly and freely is lost to static, illusive, and exotic swing positions, body mechanics, and video analysis.

 

Get your parent's handkerchief and pocket knife and start learning how to swing the clubhead! lol

 

Swinging a club is a matter of "feel" than positions or mechanics. Balance, rhythm, tension!

[BeTheBall_]

He asks that we swing the club, using the upper arms. The focus should always be the club.

 

Of course the club cannot swing itself so MDLT proposes we use the (upper) arms to do so.

[Jasonic]

That's why the focus is the club swinging and the target, not the body.

 

Doesn't MDLT advocate starting the downswing with upper arms? That I believe is a band aide to fix the hit impulse and over the top move of average golfers. Any body oriented swing tip is a band aide.

Unfortunately, modern instruction is focused on big muscles and "body illusion". The art of swinging the clubhead effortlessly and freely is lost to static, illusive, and exotic swing positions, body mechanics, and video analysis.

 

Get your parent's handkerchief and pocket knife and start learning how to swing the clubhead! lol

 

Swinging a club is a matter of "feel" than positions or mechanics. Balance, rhythm, tension!

 

What you said is what he advocates. Not sure why the need to troll so hard even when you agree.

[Thoughtful Hacker]

He asks that we swing the club, using the upper arms. The focus should always be the club.

 

Of course the club cannot swing itself so MDLT proposes we use the (upper) arms to do so.

 

Don't you think it is more natural to use your hands than upper arms? Your arms and the rest of your body all follow the hands every day thousands of times. Try using spoon or combing your hair by using your upper arm.

[Jasonic]

He asks that we swing the club, using the upper arms. The focus should always be the club.

 

Of course the club cannot swing itself so MDLT proposes we use the (upper) arms to do so.

 

Don't you think it is more natural to use your hands than upper arms? Your arms and the rest of your body all follow the hands every day thousands of times. Try using spoon or combing your hair by using your upper arm.

 

Try and hit a golf ball with a comb. Very similar action there.

[The Pearl]

He asks that we swing the club, using the upper arms. The focus should always be the club. Of course the club cannot swing itself so MDLT proposes we use the (upper) arms to do so.

Don't you think it is more natural to use your hands than upper arms? Your arms and the rest of your body all follow the hands every day thousands of times. Try using spoon or combing your hair by using your upper arm.

 

Manuel switched this teaching method years and years ago to emphasize the upper arms instead of the hands as Ernest Jones emphasized. As you may or may not know, Manuel's concepts directly flow from Jones's teaching who was a family friend. Manuel switched to teaching using the upper arms after he felt that many of his students, when told to use their hands to swing the club, would throw the hands at the ball. I believe this is in the book. I think the story is that Manuel was inspired by using the upper arm concept by watching course workers using a sledge hammer while working on the course.

[NoTalentLefty]

I'll just order his book.

[BeTheBall_]

Hip speed and rotation numbers from a few swings this evening. Not a single thought about the lower body on any of them. Numbers aren't perfect but not bad, certainly shows its not an 'armsy' swing :)

 

[BeTheBall_]

Was hitting driver much better tonight, still slightly inconsistent ball flight, mostly straight/slight draws but a few fades. All would have been playable on course though, no big misses in either direction. Distance seemed a little reduced but it was windy and range balls are never a true test. I'm a long hitter anyway though and would happily lose a few yards for a bit more accuracy!

 

Was over-drawing my irons, pretty certain this is mostly a grip strength and alignment issue.

 

Can't wait to take it to the course on Saturday :)

[games]

There is a good article right here at WRX on where to put your swing focus on. Body oriented focus (arms, shoulders, hips, etc. ) doesn't work according to scientific research.

 

Not helpful. Goodbye.

 

That's why the focus is the club swinging and the target, not the body.

 

Doesn't MDLT advocate starting the downswing with upper arms? That I believe is a band aide to fix the hit impulse and over the top move of average golfers. Any body oriented swing tip is a band aide.

Unfortunately, modern instruction is focused on big muscles and "body illusion". The art of swinging the clubhead effortlessly and freely is lost to static, illusive, and exotic swing positions, body mechanics, and video analysis.

 

Get your parent's handkerchief and pocket knife and start learning how to swing the clubhead! lol

 

Swinging a club is a matter of "feel" than positions or mechanics. Balance, rhythm, tension!

 

Not helpful. Goodbye.

[games]

He asks that we swing the club, using the upper arms. The focus should always be the club.

 

Of course the club cannot swing itself so MDLT proposes we use the (upper) arms to do so.

 

Not helpful. Goodbye.

[BeTheBall_]

Are you feeling OK? Do you need us to call someone?

[birly-shirly]

Here's my quandary with the focus on the club idea. Which I would like to agree with. I'm trying to work towards it.

 

My lifelong habit is to roll it off, come inside, then ott. I have almost zero awareness of this when I slide into it. This can feel to me like I get the club over r shoulder and start it on plane coming down. Feel isn't real.

 

So my question is, it can be tough to rely on your sense of the club. And to get the club where it goes back on a single plane (rather than a warped plane) takes me a) getting some objective feedback to recognize it's off track and b) becoming aware of the feel and physical motion needed to make a change.

 

MDLT might ask me what I am trying to do and why. I could answer that. But if I am not doing what I intend and if my sense of the club is invalid, then what? I have to learn how to get the club to do what I want.

 

This seems to me to take a mix of feel and an awareness of the club that can then transfer to more awareness of the club as you practice it. What does that r hand do to take it back on a single plane that ends up over the shoulder?

 

But if I simply relied on my feel of the club I'd stay stuck in a motion that doesn't work very well.

 

This was very much my concern my first time round with MDLT. Having said that, I think there's some truth to the idea that if you're focussed on doing something with your hands or arms, then your attention is inevitably somewhat distracted from what the club is doing. If you want feedback on what the club is doing, then even "back with both hands, forward with both arms" may be too much to think about.

 

I'll make no grand claims after one session, but I did have a very good ballstriking session at the range tonight with really NO thoughts about any part of my body. Visualise the movement of the club towards the target. No thoughts about swinging, weights on strings or rhythm. Surrender your body to the movement of the club. Swing felt better than anything I have managed previously using hands/arms thoughts.

 

Still trying to resist the urge to tamper - but I found a couple of "adjustments" that didn't seem too disruptive. One was to visualise the club brushing the matt after impact with the ball. I have a tendency to get very shallow on pitch shots and part-swings, and this seemed very helpful in achieving a solid impact. The other was to picture the club in a toe-up position when parallel, both back and through. In my case, this is definitely a more "open-faced" position than I usually play from.

 

I did not "try" to manipulate the club into that position - I just try to "see" the club in that alignment during my mental rehearsal. This did definitely result in a higher and more rightward ballflight.

 

I certainly feel this is something that I can spend more time with. Very glad to have now got the DVD as well as the book, and the DVD is not easily come by in europe from what I can gather. For what it's worth though, this has nothing to do with me being a "visual" learner (which I'm not). Just a different presentation of his material from Manuel, with a slightly different emphasis.

[wmblake2000]

Birly I take your point. I think it's just going to take me a while to transition focus entirely to the club. Maybe I'm just a coward and don't want to leave what I am familiar with!

 

But my goodness I am hitting them well. I am very excited by what's going to happen over the next 6 months.

[dlygrisse]

After another range session today here is what clicked for me.

1. If trying to hit a draw the target I am swinging to is where i am aiming. Right of the flag.

2. For a fade aim lift and swing left

3. Straight shot aim at target swing to target.

 

Still struggling with the backswing. Taking the club head back wit my hands makes me feel longer and a bit disconnected. Hit some total chunks but a couple of times I just pured it longer than I had in a while.

 

Overall I am liking what is going on. Seems to be taking pressure off of my perpetually sore back as well.

[slantsflood]

I've had some interesting results lately. I started mdlt a couple months ago. I was reading the threads and basically just tried hands back/upper arms toward target. First bucket was promising. Next 4 buckets and 3 rounds were the best I've hit the ball in my life. So I dove in and bought the book. Ever since then (about 4 range sessions) it keeps getting worse. It's like the more I learn, the harder it is getting. Now my take away is all over the place. I'm way too concerned with my weight shift. I'll be patient with learning this til the end. I even introduced it to my younger daughters who are learning to play (5, 8 years old). That's how much faith in have in it. I ordered the video tonight, figured that may help connect the dots.

[juststeve]

He asks that we swing the club, using the upper arms. The focus should always be the club.

 

Of course the club cannot swing itself so MDLT proposes we use the (upper) arms to do so.

 

Don't you think it is more natural to use your hands than upper arms? Your arms and the rest of your body all follow the hands every day thousands of times. Try using spoon or combing your hair by using your upper arm.

 

Yes, it is more natural to use the hands rather than the upper arms, but it is less effective. When we swing forward with the upper arms the coil and energy stored therein are retained until deep in the forward swing where it is released into the ball. That is not the case when we swing forward with our hands. That is a significant improvement Manny made to the Earnest Jones concept. It is not as you suggest above a band aid, it is a significant improvement on a generally sound concept. A better way to do it.

 

Steve

[Thoughtful Hacker]

Steve, study after study indicates that body oriented instructions doesn't work. The most natural way of swinging a club is using your wonderful lively hands as Ernest Jones said. You do it thousands of times a day. All you need is to train your hands how to swing the clubhead. Jones has a beautiful drill how to "feel" the clubhead and swing.

I understand why MDLT came up with that band aide to cure sever OTT move.

[parmark]

Steve, study after study indicates that body oriented instructions doesn't work. The most natural way of swinging a club is using your wonderful lively hands as Ernest Jones said. You do it thousands of times a day. All you need is to train your hands how to swing the clubhead. Jones has a beautiful drill how to "feel" the clubhead and swing.

I understand why MDLT came up with that band aide to cure sever OTT move.

 

Just an idea....

 

Perhaps your insights and studies on the use of the hands in the downswing might make for another separate topic for you to share your wisdom and suggestions some may find helpful to their game.

 

Hate to see this terrific topic in MLDTs swing be sidetracked. Steve and others have been really helpful and so willing to share their experience and give direction those of us who have found this method working so well. Some- including me - have never hit it better using this method or enjoyed the simplicity and results in what MLDT has shared in his teachings. Don't see any need to muddy these waters.

 

Maybe there's other subjects in the forum your curve balls would be a better fit for.

[slantsflood]

Steve, study after study indicates that body oriented instructions doesn't work. The most natural way of swinging a club is using your wonderful lively hands as Ernest Jones said. You do it thousands of times a day. All you need is to train your hands how to swing the clubhead. Jones has a beautiful drill how to "feel" the clubhead and swing.

I understand why MDLT came up with that band aide to cure sever OTT move.

 

Just an idea....

 

Perhaps your insights and studies on the use of the hands in the downswing might make for another separate topic for you to share your wisdom and suggestions some may find helpful to their game.

 

Hate to see this terrific topic in MLDTs swing be sidetracked. Steve and others have been really helpful and so willing to share their experience and give direction those of us who have found this method working so well. Some- including me - have never hit it better using this method or enjoyed the simplicity and results in what MLDT has shared in his teachings. Don't see any need to muddy these waters.

 

Maybe there's other subjects in the forum your curve balls would be a better fit for.

 

Couldn't say it any better than that. There's a place for everything, and this is not a debate, but a group that wants to learn.

[BeTheBall_]

Steve, study after study indicates that body oriented instructions doesn't work. The most natural way of swinging a club is using your wonderful lively hands as Ernest Jones said. You do it thousands of times a day. All you need is to train your hands how to swing the clubhead. Jones has a beautiful drill how to "feel" the clubhead and swing.

I understand why MDLT came up with that band aide to cure sever OTT move.

 

You can feel the club head whilst swinging with the arms, the two are not mutually exclusive.

 

Perhaps as Parmark suggests you should start your own thread - it is clear you feel the teachings of Jones are superior to MDLT, and of course you are entitled to that opinion, however that is not what this thread is about.

[Thoughtful Hacker]

If it is working for you and others that's great. Keep doing what is working. It worked for me when I first tried it more than a decade ago for a short time but thenI had to go back to the original Ernest Jones "Swing The Clubhead".

[slantsflood]

Is there any of you who would be interested in a mdlt weekend? A place where we could all meet, and some of you who knew Manuel could share some of his teachings and we could play golf all weekend. Maybe one weekend a year we all get together in perhaps Dallas? Just throwing it out there.

[Thoughtful Hacker]

I "surrender" to Manuel's fans on this thread and won't post anymore.