Manual de la Torre Method

[wmblake2000]

The biggest thing I've noticed? No back pain.

 

The 36 I played yesterday was amazing. My back got tried by the end of the round but I am MUCH less sore and tired today than previously when I have played more than 18.

[wmblake2000]

The posts over the last day are some of the most remarkable I have read of wrx. Tremendous exchange.

 

The thing I mist believe about MDLT concept is it is simple but is not easy at all because it requires such a mental shift. Now I agree with the poster who talks about the 'devil in the details' and I also disagree. I agree in the regard. You have to swing the club on an arc around a center to the target. This is a precise requirement that a 100 things can foul up. You have to somehow recognize whether you are doing this properly. Just having the cognitive notion does not equal the actual performance.

 

But my thought right now is the 'corrective' thought is also just a shift in the core concept. I have two areas I need to improve. The arc/plane on the forward swing and swinging so the body is pulled and the rear foot becomes perpendicular.

 

Now I am certain to make a change you need a new intent. But the key - this is the hard part - is to embed that intent into your awareness of the club's motion and the limited number of body focal points. In other words, the real beauty is the simplicity. Becoming detailed focused on the parts destroys the real value. I know - I saw this just yesterday.

[parmark]

Blake

 

I think for some of us more experienced (over 50-60, that's age not handicap!) golfers it is more of a real challenge/difference - the trust involved with this swing. I call it "giving up", but in a good way. Getting away from specific swing/ body movements and just using a simple concept of "hands back arms forward" does take a bit of re-working of both the mental and physical mind set we have always played with.

 

I find it a huge difference - some days I have more success in the mental side than others, but am enjoying the results.

[wmblake2000]

Last thought. For many of us, we are indoctrinated in a fundamentally different way of assessing out swing and game than MDLT concept. And Manny has, alas, now died. We can't have Steve or Pearl's direct insight. I know from my own business that when you 'train the trainer' especially when the source expert has unique insights that the quality suffers.

 

So the challenge is to transition. So far my experience is it is worth it, is doable but requires effort. Maybe a lot of effort, as much as learning any new approach to playing the game. But the result is a increasingly simple idea that works. That's the real lure.

[wmblake2000]

Blake

 

I think for some of us more experienced (over 50-60, that's age not handicap!) golfers it is more of a real challenge/difference - the trust involved with this swing. I call it "giving up", but in a good way. Getting away from specific swing/ body movements and just using a simple concept of "hands back arms forward" does take a bit of re-working of both the mental and physical mind set we have always played with.

 

I find it a huge difference - some days I have more success in the mental side than others, but am enjoying the results.

 

Pen, then when I read the guys who have been at this a while, they've moved from "hands back/arms forward" to club back/club forward. That shift still pretty much tilts my brain!

[BeTheBall_]

In my experience, be wary of thinking 'club' back - I find I am much more successful when I focus on 'clubhead' in the backswing.

[Millbrook]

Anybody using this approach aware of their hand path during the through swing.

 

I recently read a tip by Chris Ryan who said many high handicappers let their hands swing out whereas the good players realise that when the hands come in the club head moves out to the ball.

 

Don't want to derail things but wondered if those beginning this for the first time were aware of the hand path, comments from the experienced welcome as well.

[wmblake2000]

Milbrook, I am definitely aware of hand path - but I am really trying to migrate to being aware of club.

 

The primary injunction from MDLT father to him was 'observe yourself.' It is one thing to be aware. It is another to intend an action. I *think* MDLT means 'be aware of as much as you can be but intend to do these simple motions.'

[The Pearl]

Last thought. For many of us, we are indoctrinated in a fundamentally different way of assessing out swing and game than MDLT concept. And Manny has, alas, now died. We can't have Steve or Pearl's direct insight. I know from my own business that when you 'train the trainer' especially when the source expert has unique insights that the quality suffers.

 

So the challenge is to transition. So far my experience is it is worth it, is doable but requires effort. Maybe a lot of effort, as much as learning any new approach to playing the game. But the result is a increasingly simple idea that works. That's the real lure.

 

I certainly don't consider myself an expert. I am still discovering, I just happen to be farther down the road so I can look at some of these discussions with the benefit of hindsight. I feel like I have broken through most of the unlearning of the old as well as most of the fog of the newness of Manuel's approach. As I have mentioned before, for those of us adopting Manny's ways after decades of tinkering and bouncing from concept to concept, the reaction to Manny's approach is to add complexity.

 

There are simple tasks and complex tasks. Walking around the block is a simple task. Hitting a ball 180 yds to a 4 inch target with a molded metal stick is a complex task. The human tendency is to believe that in order to accomplish a complex task we must use a complex solution. The golf instruction industry has almost universally adopted this approach. Look at what is going on today, K Vest, Bodi Trac, Trackman, and the explosion of technology. Certainly nothing wrong with the technology, but what is it really doing? Human's are still reacting to it the same old way. Look at the popular GG thread. Many of the same folks that have populated that thread are the same one's that went from Slicefixer to ITeach to Monte. Now they are whipping the left knee out and squatting and pushing off the ground. Regardless of the technological advances, humans are still reacting to golf instruction like they always have, bouncing from idea to idea looking for the light bulb moment. The golfing treadmill.

 

I chose to get off the treadmill.

 

While we can all agree that the golf swing in itself is complex, trying to solve the complexity of the swing does not require a complex solution. MDLT is a simple approach to solving a complex problem. Again, I will repeat, every add-on or tweek that I tried from another source or that I came up with on my own was unnecessary. I will also add, some of the corrective actions we have discussed in this thread, that are in the book, or in John Hayes book may or may not work for you. Trying to swing the whole club three inches in front of the ball has never worked for me. My eyes can't look there, I lose my balance, and I lunge, every time. The point is that everything is there in the primary instruction in the book. As Manuel says, "the club is everything, you have to surrender to it."

 

All I do now is try to aim correctly, both hands swing the club head over the shoulder and than swing the entire club with both upper arms to the target. I try to do this with good tempo and balance.

 

That is it.

 

Just as Manuel says, every time that I execute these "simple" concepts, I have excellent results. They work every time.

 

The complexity isn't Manny's concepts, the complexity is us and our reaction to it.

[larssonlegend]

I don't now think about anything except club head over shoulder and swing with arms in an arc. I'm hitting the ball so well these last few weeks. I usually came on here most nights and read thread after thread about how to improve and now I am scared to read anything as don't want to cloud the clarity of MDLT method.

[juststeve]

I don't now think about anything except club head over shoulder and swing with arms in an arc. I'm hitting the ball so well these last few weeks. I usually came on here most nights and read thread after thread about how to improve and now I am scared to read anything as don't want to cloud the clarity of MDLT method.

 

Good for you. Keep at it, it only gets better with additional reps.

 

Steve

[northgolf]

So, one of the issues I had with MDLT is overreacting to the swing of the club.

[wmblake2000]

 

Good for you. Keep at it, it only gets better with additional reps.

 

Steve

 

Steve, you frequently mention reps. Is what happens for you with reps is your awareness of the swing grows? Or that your mind gets clearer about your intention? That you self-correct what goes in a wrong direction? The reason I am asking is a) I believe you, b) I am wondering what you experience improving from reps. Do you use reps to improve or ingrain (or both)? And if to improve, what's your process? How do you go about improving when the core intention remains basically the same? This isn't an attempt to do a 'gotcha' - you're a generous and sincere guy.

 

I will tell you what I think... because I agree with your 'reps' suggestion. It's kind of like learning to trust something simple and going deep into the intention that you can take to the course and trust. Part of the challenge is what Pearl identified - we (at least I) like complexity. It's hard, frankly, to keep your mind focused on trust.

 

So I am really curious about your grasp of reps and their role.

 

Thx,

 

Chuck (William Blake is the poet!)

[WayRight]

I had my first lesson with an MDLT instructor today.

He's located a couple hours away from me, and with LA traffic that meant waking up at 4:15am to go see him.

 

Parmark just had his first lesson as well (in a different state).

 

For me, I just wanted to make sure what I was doing was correct, and make sure I had not misunderstood any of what I was working on. As I'm sure we all know by now, bad habits can be hard to break in this game.

 

I didn't have any big 'wow' moments, but it was a fabulous investment of my time and money.

 

My instructor was excellent. Eric Evans if anyone is looking for someone in the LA area. Sometimes you'll get guys that dabble in a little of this and a little of that, but he was 100% MDLT.

 

 

[birly-shirly]

So, one of the issues I had with MDLT is overreacting to the swing of the club.

 

Me also.

 

In terms of my own experience in trying to implement Manuel's teachings, I admit to flitting back and forth between 2 different approaches. 1 is full-bore MDLT. The other isn't exactly a competing method or technique, but when my ballstriking goes sour beyond endurance, I fall back on Jim Hardy's +/- system of troubleshooting which I've found to be extremely functional. Almost always, my fault is to get too wide/shallow resulting in hook and thins.

 

One of the things that troubles me when I get into MDLT mode is a tendency to shank, which I have never really otherwise had a problem with. And last night, I had some of the worst ballstriking I've seen in months. Horrible contact off the tee, and 3 balls in the first 9 holes lost in the trees on the right off of IRON shots to the green. Ironically, I chipped and putted extremely well for a 9 over outward half in which I hit 0 GiRs.

 

This definitely had me in troubleshooting mode and I went through my usual repertoire of Hardy fixes - OTT feel downswing, downswing weight shift fwd, straighter backswing. None of these improved things, but the next step - keeping weight forward on the backswing - unlocked instantly better ballstriking. I hit 6 greens and 3 fringes on the back nine and shot +1.

 

My point? Although I had drifted away from a pure MDLT approach in trying to troubleshoot, what fixed me was straight out of the book. I know I've got a tendency to move a bit off the ball on the way back. For various reasons, I've also probably underemphasised what Manuel teaches in terms of there being no weight shift going back. I don't think weight distribution is part of Manuel's own faults and fixes section in his book, there's no mention of BS weight distribution in any of Ernest Jones' writing, I felt that thoughts of weight distribution were unwelcome clutter over and above the simplicity of swinging the club in the direction of the target, and I was willing to sanction what movement I knew was there as a "body response" to the swing of the clubhead.

 

If you can make a steady swing centre an instinctive body reaction to the concept of swinging the club in an arc, then more power to you. If not, there's maybe one more thing to think about. Personally, I struggle to multi-task. My only swing thought last night, once I started to hit the ball better, was to retain my balance and weight on my left foot on the backswing. That didn't leave a whole lot of bandwidth for thoughts of hands/arms or swinging the club in any particular direction - but for 9 holes at least, I did not forget.

[birly-shirly]

Also in the same vein of overdoing a good thing - what are people's thoughts on wrist flexibility?

 

I associate "swinging", and especially the exercise of swinging a weight on a string alongside a club, with maximally flexible wrists - just a free hinging universal joint. But I'm not sure this helps my ballstriking.

 

In his book, Manuel says:

...when we play tennis, the racquet is moved with the arm...the hand is not used.

...when dining, you use the arm to move the knife... the hand is not used.

...cutting down a tree with an axe, you apply power with your arms...the hands are not used.

...Let us not change the normal because we are using a golf club.

 

He also says that the hands are used to hold the club and used to control the club.

 

Now, in none of the above scenarios, whether tennis or swinging an axe, would I naturally put any conscious emphasis on flexible or free hinging wrists. I wouldn't want the wrist locked rigid, and I certainly wouldn't attempt to apply additional power from the wrist in isolation. Absolutely, I would see the action in terms of arm power and rough direction, and fine control via the sensitivity of the hands but not total passivity.

 

Does that thinking carry over well to swinging a club? The weight on a string exercise does seem to imply a greater degree of relaxation and passivity, but I have always felt that a certain firmness in the wrists is helpful. Lots of people advocate "dead hands" in putting and shortgame, and I have never managed to make that work.

[The Pearl]

I had my first lesson with an MDLT instructor today.

He's located a couple hours away from me, and with LA traffic that meant waking up at 4:15am to go see him.

 

Parmark just had his first lesson as well (in a different state).

 

For me, I just wanted to make sure what I was doing was correct, and make sure I had not misunderstood any of what I was working on. As I'm sure we all know by now, bad habits can be hard to break in this game.

 

I didn't have any big 'wow' moments, but it was a fabulous investment of my time and money.

 

My instructor was excellent. Eric Evans if anyone is looking for someone in the LA area. Sometimes you'll get guys that dabble in a little of this and a little of that, but he was 100% MDLT.

 

I would really love for you and Parmark to share your experiences with us regarding your lesson.

[wmblake2000]

Birly for me one of the critical success elements of my swing is very relaxed wrists forearms throughout the swing. It begins as I address the ball. I have added significant distance through this. If I swing freely and don't lose the right path I hit it better than ever in my life. So my wrists being passive is a big positive, for what it's worth.

[wmblake2000]

How is MDLT teaching different from conventional teaching?

 

It has to end and revolve around club being swung - this is what drives the feels. Swinging the club is the focus.

 

Developing awareness of this is the real challenge - moving from feel oriented to club oriented focus in the MDLT concept. This does not negate the role of feels but subordinates them to the focus on the club being swung via MDLT concept.

 

This is the essence of my understanding at this time, for what it's worth...

[juststeve]

Good for you. Keep at it, it only gets better with additional reps.

 

Steve

 

Steve, you frequently mention reps. Is what happens for you with reps is your awareness of the swing grows? Or that your mind gets clearer about your intention? That you self-correct what goes in a wrong direction? The reason I am asking is a) I believe you, b) I am wondering what you experience improving from reps. Do you use reps to improve or ingrain (or both)? And if to improve, what's your process? How do you go about improving when the core intention remains basically the same? This isn't an attempt to do a 'gotcha' - you're a generous and sincere guy.

 

I will tell you what I think... because I agree with your 'reps' suggestion. It's kind of like learning to trust something simple and going deep into the intention that you can take to the course and trust. Part of the challenge is what Pearl identified - we (at least I) like complexity. It's hard, frankly, to keep your mind focused on trust.

 

So I am really curious about your grasp of reps and their role.

 

Thx,

 

Chuck (William Blake is the poet!)

 

There was this fellow, a tourist no doubt, hopelessly lost on 7th Avenue in New York City. He approached a police officer for directions and asked, "how do you get to Carnegie Hall." The police officer replied, "practice, practice".

 

Swinging a golf club like playing the piano, juggling or shooting free throws is an acquired skill that can only be obtained through diligent intelligent practice. In my own case my Dad took me to Manny to learn to play golf at the beginning of the summer before my junior year in college. I had nothing else to do so I spent the summer at Milwaukee Country Club, practicing 6 to 8 hours every day. With Manny watching me from time to time and pretty good athletic aptitude it required hundreds of hours before I I could execute what Manny taught me correctly and on a consistent basis. That's what I mean when I say reps are required to mast Manny's swing, or any other golf swing for that matter. You are trying to train yourself to do something correctly, the ultimate goal being to make the correct motion second nature. That just take time, in golf, basketball or at the piano.

 

Steve

[wmblake2000]

 

You are trying to train yourself to do something correctly, the ultimate goal being to make the correct motion second nature. That just take time, in golf, basketball or at the piano.

 

Steve

 

Ok got it. Your practice was to ingrain (as all is) and your focus remained on MDLT core concept. When you had something to correct my impression is you simply remained focused on the core concept as your grasp of it evolved and became refined.

 

Thx

[juststeve]

You are trying to train yourself to do something correctly, the ultimate goal being to make the correct motion second nature. That just take time, in golf, basketball or at the piano.

 

Steve

 

Ok got it. Your practice was to ingrain (as all is) and your focus remained on MDLT core concept. When you had something to correct my impression is you simply remained focused on the core concept as your grasp of it evolved and became refined.

 

Thx

 

When a correction is needed, as it is occasionally, even today, it is because I have stopped doing something Manny taught me to do, or because I'm not do it well enough. The correction is diagnosing the problem in terms of what am I not doing correctly, and then work on that.

 

Personal example: Sometimes I come off the ball in the back swing. This results in thin shots and not getting to my left side at the end of the swing. For me the reason is invariably because my arms have taken over the responsibility for the back swing from my hands. This makes the coil less effective. The remedy is to return responsibility for the back swing to the hands and the coil is restored, shots are more solid. and I'm fully over my front foot at the finish.

 

Its always a matter of just executing the swing I was taught.

 

Steve

[marte]

Have those of you who recently adopted this swing seen an increase or decrease in distance? Improved accuracy? Did you start drawing, fading, get straighter? I'm doing some hands back to waist high swings now and swinging forward with my upper arms almost feels powerless compared to my usual swing. Seems to me this swing would be easier on the body...wmblake notes this above...anyone else? Thanks

[NoTalentLefty]

Have those of you who recently adopted this swing seen an increase or decrease in distance? Improved accuracy? I'm doing some hands back to waist high swings now and swinging forward with my upper arms almost feels powerless compared to my usual swing. Seems to me this swing would be easier on the body...wmblake notes this above...anyone else? Thanks

 

Just started but have not seen a loss of distance though I'm not long anyway. This swing is easier on the back.

[wmblake2000]

I am significantly longer. Swing with the arms works for me as does let the body respond. I am at least one club longer now, playing blades with weaker lofts.

[bdcava]

Big MDLT proponent. I had a bad round on Sunday so of course re-visited the book. I seem to pick up something new each time I re-read it. Anyway, I realized that according to Manuel, a big cause of an incorrect backswing is using too much left hand and not enough right hand. I remembered this on the second hole of my 9 hole league and just focused on using my right hand in the backswing. You know the rest of the story....

[vjswing]

Around 2004, I was struggling with my ball-striking, and began learning about MDLT's approach to the golf swing in bits and pieces via the Internet, and was intrigued enough to purchase his book, reading through it more than once during the off-season. Perhaps the biggest flaw (out of many) was my tendency to lift the club on the backswing big-time, and get really vertical. Always took huge divots with all of my irons and wedges. Manny's insistence that he disliked the term "downswing", and preferred to use the term "forward swing", really struck a chord with me.

 

Well, things started to click for me early on in 2005, and I felt that I'd developed an extremely comfortable, stable, and balanced swing, all courtesy of Manuel's teachings. I went on to play the very best golf of my life over a two-year stretch while employing this methodology/mindset, and I was clearly hitting the ball further and more consistently than I ever had. I even recall thinking at one point, "Wow, I'm going to play like this for the rest of my life!" LOL! The naivete of being in "the zone"!

 

Of course, the story takes a turn, as I started dealing with some physical issues that led to some compensatory stuff in the swing that took me away from the original concept that led to the success in the first place. Had the occasional flash of competency, but never could regain the long-term solid tee-to-green game I'd experienced.

 

Ended up "wandering in the desert", going from one swing thought or idea to another, with nothing managing to stick. I did have the opportunity to work with Monte at a couple of different clinics he's conducted. Monte is a FANTASTIC teacher, and I know he worked really hard to get me to focus on a couple of key things, but I think I was still retaining a crap-load of subconscious mental clutter, if you will, that interfered with the things that would produce an efficient swing.

 

I recently re-read some of the key portions of Manuel's book again, and am trying to get back to that point where I was a decade ago. I think his concept of maintaining a center focus is absolutely essential to me personally, and it probably needs to be emphasized even more in discussions of his teaching. Posture is another key focus for me - I'm tall and lean, and have figured out that if my knee flex isn't where it should be, it becomes considerably more difficult to swing the club as intended.

[BeTheBall_]

Have those of you who recently adopted this swing seen an increase or decrease in distance? Improved accuracy? Did you start drawing, fading, get straighter? I'm doing some hands back to waist high swings now and swinging forward with my upper arms almost feels powerless compared to my usual swing. Seems to me this swing would be easier on the body...wmblake notes this above...anyone else? Thanks

 

I can still drive the ball 300 yards with this approach, swinging the club using the arms doesn't preclude you from being powerful! This seems to be a common misconception.

 

The faster you swing the club/arms the harder your body will pivot in response.

[birly-shirly]

Birly for me one of the critical success elements of my swing is very relaxed wrists forearms throughout the swing. It begins as I address the ball. I have added significant distance through this. If I swing freely and don't lose the right path I hit it better than ever in my life. So my wrists being passive is a big positive, for what it's worth.

 

Nice. Interesting that you mention wrists AND forearms. I don't think I could ever be accused of being stiff through the elbows, I've always played with quite a "soft" left arm in spite of occasional, misguided, attempts to extend it and my right arm no doubt folds up too narrow at the top of my backswing for those who are prescriptive about these things.

 

Wrists, at least in my case, just need to be one of those "in the middle" balancing acts - not too stiff but not loose like wet spaghetti. Feeling very loose in the wrists takes me very quickly to Shank City. On the other hand, on video I generate a decent lag angle early in the downswing so a I guess there's reasonable flexibility there regardless of whether I'm emphasising it. I have to believe that Manuel had something specific in mind when he said the hands both hold the club and control it.

[WayRight]

Have those of you who recently adopted this swing seen an increase or decrease in distance? Improved accuracy? Did you start drawing, fading, get straighter? I'm doing some hands back to waist high swings now and swinging forward with my upper arms almost feels powerless compared to my usual swing. Seems to me this swing would be easier on the body...wmblake notes this above...anyone else? Thanks

I'm longer with my wedges and 5-iron (those are the only clubs I've practiced with thus far). It seems like my swing speed is higher swinging this way.