Manual de la Torre Method

[gwlee7]

[birly-shirly]

Question...How is everyone doing with Manuel's chipping technique? I don't hear much talk about it in here.

 

His advice on chipping, and by extension, pitching is a large part of what keeps bringing me back to Manuel's concept.

 

The accent on an arms-motivated swing of the club, with passive hands and no intent to lob the ball in the air has cleared up lots of long-standing issues in my short game. I've still got work to do to carry that over into the rest of my game, but I do feel that the short game is a great place to learn the feel of those fundamentals.

[PepsiDuck]

Quick question on the backswing...we swing the club back over the right shoulder with our hands. Does "over the right shoulder" literally mean that if we were to stand up straight and not turn our body, we'd use our hands to prop the club on top of our right shoulder? This feel seems to create a more upright swing plane than I would have expected, especially since there isn't supposed to be an UP in the backswing...

[juststeve]

we swing the club back with both hands IN THE DIRECTION OF THE RIGHT SHOULDER until the club is over the right shoulder. Swinging the club back with both hands creates the coil. The coil includes the right shoulder moving away from the target line, you back facing the target, your chest facing away. By the time the club has arrived over the right shoulder the shoulder has moved and the plane of the swing is dependent on your height, the lie of your clubs and how far you stand from the ball. Just like most other swing methods.

 

Hint: Just do it and don't sweat the details.

 

Steve

[dlygrisse]

we swing the club back with both hands IN THE DIRECTION OF THE RIGHT SHOULDER until the club is over the right shoulder. Swinging the club back with both hands creates the coil. The coil includes the right shoulder moving away from the target line, you back facing the target, your chest facing away. By the time the club has arrived over the right shoulder the shoulder has moved and the plane of the swing is dependent on your height, the lie of your clubs and how far you stand from the ball. Just like most other swing methods.

 

Hint: Just do it and don't sweat the details.

 

Steve

 

So this is the one area that seems the most simple but the one I seem to struggle with. For whatever reason I seem to be sucking the club inside the picking it up. I get narrow then have to re-route coming down. An old habit.

 

Had some good luck the other day at the range focusing on the club being parallel to my stance line going back and not sucking it inside that line, but the club keeps ending up behind my shoulder and not over it and I don't coil enough. I don't like to mix methods but Monte's video on the backswing where you focus on the left arm being over the stance line really helped. I know you shouldn't focus on body positions, only the club, but this keeps me on a better backswing plane. When I try to just swing back with the hands my hands betray me, or I am not trusting it.

 

When I feel myself coil correctly the ball goes a good 10-15 yards farther with no more effort, but I am not feeling this coil often enough. Either way I ht the ball very straight.

[birly-shirly]

In between a couple of video lessons with Monte, the first of which pointed out the fault and the second of which "approved" the change, I made decent progress curing that inside takeaway by focussing on using the right hand as much as the left in swinging the clubhead back.

 

Also, I would guess that Manuel was comfortable with a takeaway that was initially maybe a bit below the plane that seems more fashionable now, and then a little more across the line at the top. His own swing on youtube has some of that look, and I saw in an interview that he really liked Tiger's swing as a youngster - before he worked so hard with Butch and then Haney on keeping the arms in front of the body and the club shallower to the top.

[BeTheBall_]

we swing the club back with both hands IN THE DIRECTION OF THE RIGHT SHOULDER until the club is over the right shoulder. Swinging the club back with both hands creates the coil. The coil includes the right shoulder moving away from the target line, you back facing the target, your chest facing away. By the time the club has arrived over the right shoulder the shoulder has moved and the plane of the swing is dependent on your height, the lie of your clubs and how far you stand from the ball. Just like most other swing methods.

 

Hint: Just do it and don't sweat the details.

 

Steve

 

So this is the one area that seems the most simple but the one I seem to struggle with. For whatever reason I seem to be sucking the club inside the picking it up. I get narrow then have to re-route coming down. An old habit.

 

Had some good luck the other day at the range focusing on the club being parallel to my stance line going back and not sucking it inside that line, but the club keeps ending up behind my shoulder and not over it and I don't coil enough. I don't like to mix methods but Monte's video on the backswing where you focus on the left arm being over the stance line really helped. I know you shouldn't focus on body positions, only the club, but this keeps me on a better backswing plane. When I try to just swing back with the hands my hands betray me, or I am not trusting it.

 

When I feel myself coil correctly the ball goes a good 10-15 yards farther with no more effort, but I am not feeling this coil often enough. Either way I ht the ball very straight.

 

Visualise the arc, swing the club. A pendulum doesn't go in then up...

[juststeve]

If you are confused or are having difficulty with the back swing here's another way to think about it. It's not in the books but it does come from Manny.

 

1. A simple way to think about the golf swing is that it is a to and fro motion, of the club, on an arc oriented to the target. The club swings away from the target on an arc, reverses and swings toward the target an arc. The ball is struck by the club as it swings forward.

 

2. We swing the club away from the target with both hands because that is the most efficient way to induce a coil in the passive body. We swing the club forward with our arms because by doing so the coil is retained until it is released through the shot.

 

3. Just as the forward swing is thought of as one continuous motion toward the target, the back swing is one continuous motion away from the target. If you swing the club in one continuous motion, on an arc, away from the target, with both hands, you will find the club in good position at the end of the back swing.

 

Just focus on swinging the club away from the target then toward the target and see if that helps. When you can do that minor adjustments to path might be in order, but get the club swinging back and forth before you worry about that.

 

Steve

[slantsflood]

If you are confused or are having difficulty with the back swing here's another way to think about it. It's not in the books but it does come from Manny.

 

1. A simple way to think about the golf swing is that it is a to and fro motion, of the club, on an arc oriented to the target. The club swings away from the target on an arc, reverses and swings toward the target an arc. The ball is struck by the club as it swings forward.

 

2. We swing the club away from the target with both hands because that is the most efficient way to induce a coil in the passive body. We swing the club forward with our arms because by doing so the coil is retained until it is released through the shot.

 

3. Just as the forward swing is thought of as one continuous motion toward the target, the back swing is one continuous motion away from the target. If you swing the club in one continuous motion, on an arc, away from the target, with both hands, you will find the club in good position at the end of the back swing.

 

Just focus on swinging the club away from the target then toward the target and see if that helps. When you can do that minor adjustments to path might be in order, but get the club swinging back and forth before you worry about that.

 

Steve

 

Swing the club away from the target then toward the target....do you realize how less screwed up we would all be if this was the instruction that was given to us from the beginning? Just like swinging a bat, shooting baskets, you practice and master it by repetitions and feel. All you know is to and fro, no body thoughts are ever used. Brilliant Steve!

[northgolf]

If you are confused or are having difficulty with the back swing here's another way to think about it. It's not in the books but it does come from Manny.

 

1. A simple way to think about the golf swing is that it is a to and fro motion, of the club, on an arc oriented to the target. The club swings away from the target on an arc, reverses and swings toward the target an arc. The ball is struck by the club as it swings forward.

 

2. We swing the club away from the target with both hands because that is the most efficient way to induce a coil in the passive body. We swing the club forward with our arms because by doing so the coil is retained until it is released through the shot.

 

3. Just as the forward swing is thought of as one continuous motion toward the target, the back swing is one continuous motion away from the target. If you swing the club in one continuous motion, on an arc, away from the target, with both hands, you will find the club in good position at the end of the back swing.

 

Just focus on swinging the club away from the target then toward the target and see if that helps. When you can do that minor adjustments to path might be in order, but get the club swinging back and forth before you worry about that.

 

Steve

 

Swing the club away from the target then toward the target....do you realize how less screwed up we would all be if this was the instruction that was given to us from the beginning? Just like swinging a bat, shooting baskets, you practice and master it by repetitions and feel. All you know is to and fro, no body thoughts are ever used. Brilliant Steve!

 

I was very solid in agreeing with you, but in the past couple of months juststeve has introduced the concept of coil. E. Jones absolutely never mentioned coil in his book and with MDLT I never noticed it until JustSteve mentioned it (I found one reference). For me the concept of coil is problematic as it reeks of "leverage" which is antithetical to the teachings of E. Jones.

[Shilgy]

Then you have the wrong concept of coil. It is not something you try to hold. When I took lessons from a local protege of Manny's before she retired my best swing almost felt flippy the wrists were so loose. The faster you swing the arms forward the more coil you will have.

[northgolf]

Then you have the wrong concept of coil. It is not something you try to hold. When I took lessons from a local protege of Manny's before she retired my best swing almost felt flippy the wrists were so loose. The faster you swing the arms forward the more coil you will have.

 

Juststeve is talking about coil felt going back to P4. Coil implies leverage - there is no coil in a pendulum which is a pure swing. You coil a spring, there is no coil in a pendulum. Juststeve is describing a smoothed over hit.

[PepsiDuck]

During a practice round today, I made a startling discovery regarding my arm motion during the forward swing. I have a very strong feeling that my arms have not been moving correctly for a long time now, and it made it impossible to return a square club face to impact without a combination of perfect timing and major compensations. Focusing solely on swinging the club to the target forced my arms to move in a way that they had never moved before...

 

I also started reading the Hayes book. Right now, I'm all-in on MDLT.

[northgolf]

During a practice round today, I made a startling discovery regarding my arm motion during the forward swing. I have a very strong feeling that my arms have not been moving correctly for a long time now, and it made it impossible to return a square club face to impact without a combination of perfect timing and major compensations. Focusing solely on swinging the club to the target forced my arms to move in a way that they had never moved before...

 

I also started reading the Hayes book. Right now, I'm all-in on MDLT.

 

I'm scared to ask where they went now.

[PepsiDuck]

During a practice round today, I made a startling discovery regarding my arm motion during the forward swing. I have a very strong feeling that my arms have not been moving correctly for a long time now, and it made it impossible to return a square club face to impact without a combination of perfect timing and major compensations. Focusing solely on swinging the club to the target forced my arms to move in a way that they had never moved before...

 

I also started reading the Hayes book. Right now, I'm all-in on MDLT.

 

I'm scared to ask where they went now.

 

I seriously can't even describe it in words...

[northgolf]

During a practice round today, I made a startling discovery regarding my arm motion during the forward swing. I have a very strong feeling that my arms have not been moving correctly for a long time now, and it made it impossible to return a square club face to impact without a combination of perfect timing and major compensations. Focusing solely on swinging the club to the target forced my arms to move in a way that they had never moved before...

 

I also started reading the Hayes book. Right now, I'm all-in on MDLT.

 

I'm scared to ask where they went now.

 

I seriously can't even describe it in words...

 

And I thought I was scared before...

[PepsiDuck]

And I thought I was scared before...

 

Ok...so this is the best way for me to say it...

 

Previous arm movement: from the top, the bottom of the left arm moved toward the target. Almost no left arm rotation; club face is wide open at impact.

 

"New" arm movement: from the top, the side of the left arm moves toward the target. The left arm rotates as it moves forward, which also allows the right arm to properly rotate in the forward swing.

 

But like I said, it's really hard to describe in words the difference, so this might not make any sense...

[northgolf]

And I thought I was scared before...

 

Ok...so this is the best way for me to say it...

 

Previous arm movement: from the top, the bottom of the left arm moved toward the target. Almost no left arm rotation; club face is wide open at impact.

 

"New" arm movement: from the top, the side of the left arm moves toward the target. The left arm rotates as it moves forward, which also allows the right arm to properly rotate in the forward swing.

 

But like I said, it's really hard to describe in words the difference, so this might not make any sense...

 

I'd be trite and say it sounds like your left arm is rotating and folding under on the forward swing just like your right arm rotates and folds under on your back swing. That would be symmetrical which is what you expect with a swing, now I'm scared to think of what you used to do ;-).

[slantsflood]

What I really notice.... Take the motion of just swinging back and forth with a club repeatedly . It's smooth, fluid, and your body reacts to it. But starting that from a static position is what threw a wrench in it for me. In the mdlt swing, I felt like I had more problems with the backswing than the through swing. Which is crazy to think about with all the transition/release stuff you learn from previous years. I had a problem with trying to stay "centered" with my weight to swing the club back. Now, I feel like I step/pressure right foot to start the swing. It's not a lifting, leverage motion, it's swinging. So for me it's step-swing back-step-swing forth. Feels so natural it's scary

[northgolf]

What I really notice.... Take the motion of just swinging back and forth with a club repeatedly . It's smooth, fluid, and your body reacts to it. But starting that from a static position is what threw a wrench in it for me. In the mdlt swing, I felt like I had more problems with the backswing than the through swing. Which is crazy to think about with all the transition/release stuff you learn from previous years. I had a problem with trying to stay "centered" with my weight to swing the club back. Now, I feel like I step/pressure right foot to start the swing. It's not a lifting, leverage motion, it's swinging. So for me it's step-swing back-step-swing forth. Feels so natural it's scary

 

Yeah, I'm known for being a bit snide here, but if you find a motion that keeps you in balance through the entire swing and you are hitting/swinging into the ball off your trail foot, then you've got a leg up on the other hacks.

[slantsflood]

When I try to swing "centered" I feel like I'm about to tip over lol. I make sure to keep the weight on the inside of the right foot. More of pressure shifts instead of weight shifts.

[juststeve]

If you are confused or are having difficulty with the back swing here's another way to think about it. It's not in the books but it does come from Manny.

 

1. A simple way to think about the golf swing is that it is a to and fro motion, of the club, on an arc oriented to the target. The club swings away from the target on an arc, reverses and swings toward the target an arc. The ball is struck by the club as it swings forward.

 

2. We swing the club away from the target with both hands because that is the most efficient way to induce a coil in the passive body. We swing the club forward with our arms because by doing so the coil is retained until it is released through the shot.

 

3. Just as the forward swing is thought of as one continuous motion toward the target, the back swing is one continuous motion away from the target. If you swing the club in one continuous motion, on an arc, away from the target, with both hands, you will find the club in good position at the end of the back swing.

 

Just focus on swinging the club away from the target then toward the target and see if that helps. When you can do that minor adjustments to path might be in order, but get the club swinging back and forth before you worry about that.

 

Steve

 

Swing the club away from the target then toward the target....do you realize how less screwed up we would all be if this was the instruction that was given to us from the beginning? Just like swinging a bat, shooting baskets, you practice and master it by repetitions and feel. All you know is to and fro, no body thoughts are ever used. Brilliant Steve!

 

I was very solid in agreeing with you, but in the past couple of months juststeve has introduced the concept of coil. E. Jones absolutely never mentioned coil in his book and with MDLT I never noticed it until JustSteve mentioned it (I found one reference). For me the concept of coil is problematic as it reeks of "leverage" which is antithetical to the teachings of E. Jones.

 

Lot of confusion here about terms that I can clear up.

 

The first is leverage. As Manny used the term leverage is moving the club head independently of the rest of the club. We see it in the back swing when a player sets his wrists right off ball. The handle remains relatively stationary while the club head is swung back. Golf can be played that way, and played very well, but it isn't what Manny taught. The reasons are for another post anyone is interested,

 

The other form of leverage which you will see everywhere duffers practice is the attempt to accelerate just the club head into the all independently of the rest of the club. This is usually attempted by applying force to the trail side of the grip with the trail hand. The result of this is uniformly bad. The trail wrist flattens the lead wrist cups. Loft is added to the club. Impact becomes very inconsistent, once fat, then thin. Distance suffers. Very hard top play golf with that kind of leverage in your swing. Hence the admonition that in the forward swing that we swing the WHOLE CLUB in the direction of the target, not just the club head.

 

The COIL has nothing to do with leverage except it is best produced by a back swing that doesn't employ leverage. The coil is merely the response of the relaxed body to the swinging of the club away from the target. Ernest Jones was aware that the body would turn in response to the swinging of the club, he knew the wrists would c0ck and the trail elbow would bend, he just didn't call it a coil.

 

One aspect of the coil is the formation of an angle between the lead arm and the club. As soon as the club begins to swing forward the club shaft seeks to align itself with the lead arm. We don't do that, its just physics. Neither do we try to resist it. It is the speed of our arms that dictates where the club will finally align with the lead arm. The faster the arms swing the further forward in the arc the alignment occurs. That is what is meant when it is send that arm speed maintains the coil.

 

Steve

[Cicero]

If you are confused or are having difficulty with the back swing here's another way to think about it. It's not in the books but it does come from Manny.

 

1. A simple way to think about the golf swing is that it is a to and fro motion, of the club, on an arc oriented to the target. The club swings away from the target on an arc, reverses and swings toward the target an arc. The ball is struck by the club as it swings forward.

 

2. We swing the club away from the target with both hands because that is the most efficient way to induce a coil in the passive body. We swing the club forward with our arms because by doing so the coil is retained until it is released through the shot.

 

3. Just as the forward swing is thought of as one continuous motion toward the target, the back swing is one continuous motion away from the target. If you swing the club in one continuous motion, on an arc, away from the target, with both hands, you will find the club in good position at the end of the back swing.

 

Just focus on swinging the club away from the target then toward the target and see if that helps. When you can do that minor adjustments to path might be in order, but get the club swinging back and forth before you worry about that.

 

Steve

 

Swing the club away from the target then toward the target....do you realize how less screwed up we would all be if this was the instruction that was given to us from the beginning? Just like swinging a bat, shooting baskets, you practice and master it by repetitions and feel. All you know is to and fro, no body thoughts are ever used. Brilliant Steve!

 

I was very solid in agreeing with you, but in the past couple of months juststeve has introduced the concept of coil. E. Jones absolutely never mentioned coil in his book and with MDLT I never noticed it until JustSteve mentioned it (I found one reference). For me the concept of coil is problematic as it reeks of "leverage" which is antithetical to the teachings of E. Jones.

 

Lot of confusion here about terms that I can clear up.

 

The first is leverage. As Manny used the term leverage is moving the club head independently of the rest of the club. We see it in the back swing when a player sets his wrists right off ball. The handle remains relatively stationary while the club head is swung back. Golf can be played that way, and played very well, but it isn't what Manny taught. The reasons are for another post anyone is interested,

 

The other form of leverage which you will see everywhere duffers practice is the attempt to accelerate just the club head into the all independently of the rest of the club. This is usually attempted by applying force to the trail side of the grip with the trail hand. The result of this is uniformly bad. The trail wrist flattens the lead wrist cups. Loft is added to the club. Impact becomes very inconsistent, once fat, then thin. Distance suffers. Very hard top play golf with that kind of leverage in your swing. Hence the admonition that in the forward swing that we swing the WHOLE CLUB in the direction of the target, not just the club head.

 

The COIL has nothing to do with leverage except it is best produced by a back swing that doesn't employ leverage. The coil is merely the response of the relaxed body to the swinging of the club away from the target. Ernest Jones was aware that the body would turn in response to the swinging of the club, he knew the wrists would c0ck and the trail elbow would bend, he just didn't call it a coil.

 

One aspect of the coil is the formation of an angle between the lead arm and the club. As soon as the club begins to swing forward the club shaft seeks to align itself with the lead arm. We don't do that, its just physics. Neither do we try to resist it. It is the speed of our arms that dictates where the club will finally align with the lead arm. The faster the arms swing the further forward in the arc the alignment occurs. That is what is meant when it is send that arm speed maintains the coil.

 

Steve

 

I'm definitely interested.

 

 

[mikkav]

Here's a drill I use to cultivate the idea of swinging the club.

Take your stance without a club. Place your hands together, right fingers over left, thumbs pointing down and parallel. Swing your hands over your right shoulder then swing towards the target and finish over your left shoulder. You might have a little softness in the left arm but don't worry.

Then do it with a club with the same intent. Whole club not the grip or the head.

[juststeve]

If you are confused or are having difficulty with the back swing here's another way to think about it. It's not in the books but it does come from Manny.

 

1. A simple way to think about the golf swing is that it is a to and fro motion, of the club, on an arc oriented to the target. The club swings away from the target on an arc, reverses and swings toward the target an arc. The ball is struck by the club as it swings forward.

 

2. We swing the club away from the target with both hands because that is the most efficient way to induce a coil in the passive body. We swing the club forward with our arms because by doing so the coil is retained until it is released through the shot.

 

3. Just as the forward swing is thought of as one continuous motion toward the target, the back swing is one continuous motion away from the target. If you swing the club in one continuous motion, on an arc, away from the target, with both hands, you will find the club in good position at the end of the back swing.

 

Just focus on swinging the club away from the target then toward the target and see if that helps. When you can do that minor adjustments to path might be in order, but get the club swinging back and forth before you worry about that.

 

Steve

 

Swing the club away from the target then toward the target....do you realize how less screwed up we would all be if this was the instruction that was given to us from the beginning? Just like swinging a bat, shooting baskets, you practice and master it by repetitions and feel. All you know is to and fro, no body thoughts are ever used. Brilliant Steve!

 

I was very solid in agreeing with you, but in the past couple of months juststeve has introduced the concept of coil. E. Jones absolutely never mentioned coil in his book and with MDLT I never noticed it until JustSteve mentioned it (I found one reference). For me the concept of coil is problematic as it reeks of "leverage" which is antithetical to the teachings of E. Jones.

 

Lot of confusion here about terms that I can clear up.

 

The first is leverage. As Manny used the term leverage is moving the club head independently of the rest of the club. We see it in the back swing when a player sets his wrists right off ball. The handle remains relatively stationary while the club head is swung back. Golf can be played that way, and played very well, but it isn't what Manny taught. The reasons are for another post anyone is interested,

 

The other form of leverage which you will see everywhere duffers practice is the attempt to accelerate just the club head into the all independently of the rest of the club. This is usually attempted by applying force to the trail side of the grip with the trail hand. The result of this is uniformly bad. The trail wrist flattens the lead wrist cups. Loft is added to the club. Impact becomes very inconsistent, once fat, then thin. Distance suffers. Very hard top play golf with that kind of leverage in your swing. Hence the admonition that in the forward swing that we swing the WHOLE CLUB in the direction of the target, not just the club head.

 

The COIL has nothing to do with leverage except it is best produced by a back swing that doesn't employ leverage. The coil is merely the response of the relaxed body to the swinging of the club away from the target. Ernest Jones was aware that the body would turn in response to the swinging of the club, he knew the wrists would c0ck and the trail elbow would bend, he just didn't call it a coil.

 

One aspect of the coil is the formation of an angle between the lead arm and the club. As soon as the club begins to swing forward the club shaft seeks to align itself with the lead arm. We don't do that, its just physics. Neither do we try to resist it. It is the speed of our arms that dictates where the club will finally align with the lead arm. The faster the arms swing the further forward in the arc the alignment occurs. That is what is meant when it is send that arm speed maintains the coil.

 

Steve

 

I'm definitely interested.

 

Cicero:

 

Manny favored swinging the club in the back swing because swinging the club away induces a coiling reaction from the body that is not produced when the club is levered away from the ball. Because coiling is a reaction to properly swinging the club back one need not control and monitor the various aspects of body motion that make up a proper back swing in other systems. Simple is better.

 

Steve

[birly-shirly]

When Manuel says to swing the club so that it ends up over the right shoulder on the backswing, is that intended as a checkpoint that can be used to distinguish a backswing that is either too flat or too upright?

 

It's sometimes difficult in reading the book to parse out cause from effect, or things that require conscious attention from things that should just happen. However, seeing my swing on video this last weekend, I could definitely swing my arms a bit more vertically in order to have the club above my right shoulder rather then behind it.

 

Before setting about changing this deliberately, I want to check out that the arm swing plane isn't really the consequence of something earlier and more fundamental in the backswing and that I'm looking at the root cause, not just a superficial symptom.

[juststeve]

When Manuel says to swing the club so that it ends up over the right shoulder on the backswing, is that intended as a checkpoint that can be used to distinguish a backswing that is either too flat or too upright?

 

It's sometimes difficult in reading the book to parse out cause from effect, or things that require conscious attention from things that should just happen. However, seeing my swing on video this last weekend, I could definitely swing my arms a bit more vertically in order to have the club above my right shoulder rather then behind it.

 

Before setting about changing this deliberately, I want to check out that the arm swing plane isn't really the consequence of something earlier and more fundamental in the back swing and that I'm looking at the root cause, not just a superficial symptom.

 

Not really a check point or a mandatory position. A better check point if you want one it to observe the club when it is parallel to the ground in the back swing. At that point it should be parallel to the target line and the toe of the club should point upward. Similarly when the club is again parallel to the ground past impact it should be roughly parallel to the target line, toe up. I never saw Manny adjust the top of the swing position but he often adjusted the two parallel positions. Get those right and it may effect your "arm swing plane" if you want to think about that.

 

Steve

 

Steve

[birly-shirly]

Thank you Steve. Toe up and parallel is where I started working at the weekend. Although I think toe up may be difficult to achieve with a grip on the strong side of perfectly neutral. I think I may also need to work on having my shoulders turn fully in sync with the clubhead. A fuller turn might, I hope, be the groundwork for keeping the arms and club more in front of me.

 

So, responsive and synched up turn, and good alignment at p2 seems to be my homework for the off season.

[juststeve]

Thank you Steve. Toe up and parallel is where I started working at the weekend. Although I think toe up may be difficult to achieve with a grip on the strong side of perfectly neutral. I think I may also need to work on having my shoulders turn fully in sync with the clubhead. A fuller turn might, I hope, be the groundwork for keeping the arms and club more in front of me.

 

So, responsive and synched up turn, and good alignment at p2 seems to be my homework for the off season.

 

Manny was reluctant to write a book because he knew that it would be incomplete. He was right about that, there is much he had to teach that couldn't fit in a book of reasonable size and complexity. You're now touching on two areas where the books is incomplete.

 

The neutral grip. To Manny a neutral grip is one that allows the club to return square to the ball without conscious manipulation. That is not necessarily the same for every player so there is no "perfectly neutral" grip that fits everyone. Had you worked with Manny at some point he would have tested your grip and recommended what for you was a neutral grip. Dan Purdy now markets a training device that is meant to simulate Manny's test. So---Find out what grip allows you to square the face without manipulation and that is your neutral. You may already be there.

 

The toe up position will vary somewhat depending on how your hands are placed on the club. Toe pointed perfectly straight up is not the point. If you start in an appropriate set up position, and swing the club back in an appropriate manner the toe will point more or less upward. The worst thing you can do is start twisting your hands to achieve some theoretically perfect position. Just swing it back, on an arc, and the toe will take care of itself.

 

You don't need to synch up your turn. If your turn is a reaction to the swinging of the club, if your body is relaxed and responsive, you will be synched up automatically. At far as P2 goes, I don't know where that is. If it is the first parallel in the back swing remember it is just an orientation the club passes through as you swing it back in one continuous motion. Don't get caught trying to move from one position to another. That's Jim McClain, not Manny.

 

Steve

[Shilgy]

Thank you Steve. Toe up and parallel is where I started working at the weekend. Although I think toe up may be difficult to achieve with a grip on the strong side of perfectly neutral. I think I may also need to work on having my shoulders turn fully in sync with the clubhead. A fuller turn might, I hope, be the groundwork for keeping the arms and club more in front of me.

 

So, responsive and synched up turn, and good alignment at p2 seems to be my homework for the off season.

 

Manny was reluctant to write a book because he knew that it would be incomplete. He was right about that, there is much he had to teach that couldn't fit in a book of reasonable size and complexity. You're now touching on two areas where the books is incomplete.

 

The neutral grip. To Manny a neutral grip is one that allows the club to return square to the ball without conscious manipulation. That is not necessarily the same for every player so there is no "perfectly neutral" grip that fits everyone. Had you worked with Manny at some point he would have tested your grip and recommended what for you was a neutral grip. Dan Purdy now markets a training device that is meant to simulate Manny's test. So---Find out what grip allows you to square the face without manipulation and that is your neutral. You may already be there.

 

The toe up position will vary somewhat depending on how your hands are placed on the club. Toe pointed perfectly straight up is not the point. If you start in an appropriate set up position, and swing the club back in an appropriate manner the toe will point more or less upward. The worst thing you can do is start twisting your hands to achieve some theoretically perfect position. Just swing it back, on an arc, and the toe will take care of itself.

 

You don't need to synch up your turn. If your turn is a reaction to the swinging of the club, if your body is relaxed and responsive, you will be synched up automatically. At far as P2 goes, I don't know where that is. If it is the first parallel in the back swing remember it is just an orientation the club passes through as you swing it back in one continuous motion. Don't get caught trying to move from one position to another. That's Jim McClain, not Manny.

 

Steve

"Ted" Purdy. He was taught from a very young age by the same Manny disciple I learned from. His grip analyzer: http://www.tedpurdy.com/