Manual de la Torre Method

[games]

Maybe this is semantics, but for this swing concept, I like the notion of framing thoughts in terms of what to do. Not look at it as "troubleshooting" or "fixing what's wrong."

 

To this end, two things are critical:

1) video;

2) selection of an MDLT model for comparison;

 

This way, one can see where the model moves the club, then visualize it and attempt to replicate it.

 

I can think of several female players who would be good models (and it's no wonder MDLT seemed to have most success with female pros).

As mentioned before, Steve Stricker may be the closest male model for this swing.

 

Also, I think the overhead views of swings linked earlier in this thread could be helpful.

[Jasonic]

Aren't any pro swing the model? They all are swinging the club towards the target, how they do it is their own personal way of doing it. That's the point of Manuels teaching as I understand it...we all have the ability naturally just have to find it by swinging the club to the target.

 

If a pro didn't swing the club towards the target, he wouldn't be a pro for long.

[games]

Aren't any pro swing the model? They all are swinging the club towards the target, how they do it is their own personal way of doing it. That's the point of Manuels teaching as I understand it...we all have the ability naturally just have to find it by swinging the club to the target.

 

If a pro didn't swing the club towards the target, he wouldn't be a pro for long.

 

Possibly. Kind of why I like the aerial views of the swings. Easier to see the club through the entire swing regardless of the golfer.

 

Seems like most other tour players either have homemade swings (Bubba and Furyk) or use the "leverage" model (DJ, Rory, Sergio) discussed in the book.

Those can work for the pros, since they have time to put in the repetition to make them work. I'm just not that gifted, either physically or imagination-wise...

Maybe it's easier on my own imagination to use Stricker. I don't know.

[birly-shirly]

I would guess that more pros fit the MDLT model than don't. They are all swinging the club largely on-plane and towards the target, as those terms are defined by Manuel. Intentions may differ from person to person, but the geometry not so much. Biggest difference might be weight transfer - but then I'm not sure that a big lateral move is all that common amongst pros now. I think the "leverage swing" is a bad model rather than a viable alternative for good golf.

[chippa13]

I figured I would get this response and agree, that's exactly what MDLT says in his book.

 

In the real world it just doesn't help me though. I'm obviously not able to execute what I'm supposed to do consistently and without anyone versed in the method to guide me, perhaps this isn't the approach for me.

 

I think the problem is with your self-assessment on the course. Instead of thinking, "I didn't do X on the last shot", try thinking, "I need to do X on the next shot".

[Noke]

MDLT's methodology must be the thinking man's approach, because you guys are all super smart! Thanks for the wealth of input in this thread.

 

I like a more upright swing for my bad back. Any of you swing with the intent of club over the right ear or nape of the neck in the bs? I get similarly consistent results as swinging the club over my right shoulder, maybe a bit more of a cut than draw, but it's working so I figure I must be doing something right.

[dlygrisse]

MDLT's methodology must be the thinking man's approach, because you guys are all super smart! Thanks for the wealth of input in this thread.

 

I like a more upright swing for my bad back. Any of you swing with the intent of club over the right ear or nape of the neck in the bs? I get similarly consistent results as swinging the club over my right shoulder, maybe a bit more of a cut than draw, but it's working so I figure I must be doing something right.

 

I would think the intent of the forward swing is more important than the back swing as long as you are coiling somewhat properly.

[Shilgy]

Aren't any pro swing the model? They all are swinging the club towards the target, how they do it is their own personal way of doing it. That's the point of Manuels teaching as I understand it...we all have the ability naturally just have to find it by swinging the club to the target.

 

If a pro didn't swing the club towards the target, he wouldn't be a pro for long.

The best I know is Ted Purdy

[dlygrisse]

Ted has a purdy swing... :)

[SuperPunch]

Love those videos. From that angle, it really helps me see the actual swinging of the club with the handle and club head moving at the same time, same rate.

 

I've been doing this swing since April and have found my pitfalls along he road. Every time I'm about to give up out of frustration of "having it" and then "losing it" seemingly out of nowhere, I just tel myself to swing back with the hands, the whole club to the target and let my body respond. Unsurprisingly of course, it all seems to come back to me and I'm having more fun and swinging better than I have ever before.

 

My only real issue with this is in trying to improve the swing. I definitely don't do it perfect, but I have trouble trying to make it better without getting sucked down the rabbit hole of technical thoughts and inevitably getting away from the simplicity of the swing itself.

 

It's a mental catch 22. When I keep it simple, I swing better, but to continue to get better, I don't know how to keep it simple. Make sense?

[slantsflood]

Absolutely SuperPunch! Makes total sense and we have all been there. When I get to that stage, I take a deep breath and hear a voice in my head saying "what are you trying to do"? Stare at the target hearing "what are you trying to do" again in my mind. It centers me instantly like no other swing thought I've ever had in my mind. And the best part of it all, is if I hit a bad shot, it's because I didn't do what I was supposed to do. Nothing more, nothing less. I used to go into "blame the body part mode" Next thing I know, is I've tried 5 different swing thoughts in one round. Never going back to that way of playing golf that way again. I've watched my dad do that for 30 years, and he's still doing it.

[slantsflood]

Question...How is everyone doing with Manuel's chipping technique? I don't hear much talk about it in here.

[PepsiDuck]

I just bought this book and will give this a try. I really like the chapter of common problems and fixes.

 

EDIT: I just read the chapter on mental game; specifically, the sections on taking the range swing to the course which I clearly struggle with. And he seems to advocate something opposite what I've seen almost *everywhere* else. That is, we must focus on the swing as much on the course as we do on the practice range. In other words, there is no "subconscious" swing, but rather, we must always be mentally aware of making our correct swing.

 

Am I interpreting this correctly?

[games]

I just bought this book and will give this a try. I really like the chapter of common problems and fixes.

 

EDIT: I just read the chapter on mental game; specifically, the sections on taking the range swing to the course which I clearly struggle with. And he seems to advocate something opposite what I've seen almost *everywhere* else. That is, we must focus on the swing as much on the course as we do on the practice range. In other words, there is no "subconscious" swing, but rather, we must always be mentally aware of making our correct swing.

 

Am I interpreting this correctly?

 

YOU need to think about "swinging a club." NOT making a correct swing.

(I read your thread. You're overly analytical and negative, like me. Don't judge yourself by the last shot. Prepare yourself for the next shot.)

[Cicero]

Question...How is everyone doing with Manuel's chipping technique? I don't hear much talk about it in here.

 

I'm not comfortable with MDLT's concept in the short game; just can't make it work at all. That said, my short game works best when it's focused on using my hands to "toss" the ball to the target, allowing my body to respond to the intent. Chipping is best for me when it's just putting with loft.

 

 

[SuperPunch]

Question...How is everyone doing with Manuel's chipping technique? I don't hear much talk about it in here.

 

The only part of the short game that I've really taken is keeping the mental picture in my mind for chips and putt and just letting my body adjust on its own for distance. Has really helped a lot and made it much simpler.

[PepsiDuck]

Well, after reading the relevant chapters, I headed out to the range to give it a go armed with the simple concept. I don't feel that it's any different from what I'd been working on with Monte; it's the same idea of syncing arms and body using different words. Anyway, I really like how it worked for me. It's blatantly obvious from connecting the reading with my observations of ball flight and swing feel that I have uncontrollable hit impulse with my lead shoulder. My misses coincide with those explained in the book, and it makes sense that my body would impulsively lead with the left shoulder when I use the left arm off the chest transition intent.

 

I haven't made my way through this entire thread, so I apologize if this has already been addressed. When we swing the arms forward, I understand we ideally should have a balance of effort from both arms, but do you favor one arm over the other? I noticed that when I favor the left arm forward, I have a tendency to sometimes lead with the left shoulder and hit the pull draw/hook. However, when I favor the right arm forward, I can't seem to miss. That being said, when I lead with the right upper arm, my right arm actually straightens into impact (i.e., punch elbow). Is this consistent with the MDLT approach, or is it too much hit and not enough swing?

 

 

EDIT: After reading the first dozen pages of the thread, I realized that the focus should be on the club travel "on the plane" rather than the movement of any particular body part. Making some swings indoors, I can actually focus on and feel the swinging of the club, and the body just does what it does to make that happen. This is quite a significant development...

[slantsflood]

Good find Pepsiduck. There are some major light bulb moments with the swing. Most of them are smooth and free flowing. The hardest part for me was mental. To unwire all the body parts, right elbow, left hip, etc. Funny thing is, when I only knew hands back, upper arms through, I hit the best balls consistently of my life. And that was after 2 range sessions so it didn't take long. Then I bought the book and video. My swing kept getting worse and worse from learning more and more. I still have the book and video, but I don't need it, unless a train wreck comes along. I think the simplicity of "hands back, arms through" made my brain think, "that's it"? "Well that's easy". Especially compared to some of the crap swing instruction out there. That's the beauty of this puppy! Don't overthink it and just do as he says, Manuel has already "overthought" it for you:)

[slantsflood]

Quick question. I've basically backed off a lot of my weight shift and trying to keep things centered. I'm having a lot of lower back pain though. I think it's from restricting my hips. I'm so used to (stepping) into my inner right foot activating my glute on the backswing. When I do this with the mdlt, I hit a lot of fats and shanks to the right. Trying to find a balance of the 2 pain free. Any suggestions would be great. Thanks

[SuperPunch]

My guess, and I've had a similar issue before, is that you're not letting your body respond. When I was getting back pain, I notice that my lower body and even my upper body weren't really moving at all. It's a fine line, but letting your body respond doesn't mean just keeping it limp and thus turning it unresponsive.

 

I still work on it, taking some short practice swings making sure that I'm letting my hips turn, upper body turn, etc. The movement is unconscious, but it's a conscious effort to let the body respond.

[Silky]

Well, after reading the relevant chapters, I headed out to the range to give it a go armed with the simple concept. I don't feel that it's any different from what I'd been working on with Monte; it's the same idea of syncing arms and body using different words. Anyway, I really like how it worked for me. It's blatantly obvious from connecting the reading with my observations of ball flight and swing feel that I have uncontrollable hit impulse with my lead shoulder. My misses coincide with those explained in the book, and it makes sense that my body would impulsively lead with the left shoulder when I use the left arm off the chest transition intent.

 

I haven't made my way through this entire thread, so I apologize if this has already been addressed. When we swing the arms forward, I understand we ideally should have a balance of effort from both arms, but do you favor one arm over the other? I noticed that when I favor the left arm forward, I have a tendency to sometimes lead with the left shoulder and hit the pull draw/hook. However, when I favor the right arm forward, I can't seem to miss. That being said, when I lead with the right upper arm, my right arm actually straightens into impact (i.e., punch elbow). Is this consistent with the MDLT approach, or is it too much hit and not enough swing?

 

 

EDIT: After reading the first dozen pages of the thread, I realized that the focus should be on the club travel "on the plane" rather than the movement of any particular body part. Making some swings indoors, I can actually focus on and feel the swinging of the club, and the body just does what it does to make that happen. This is quite a significant development...

 

[PepsiDuck]

For those who have uncontrollable hit impulse with the lead shoulder, how do you eliminate that hit impulse if you are focused exclusively on the club rather than body movements? Does it violate the spirit of MDLT to isolate and address body movement independent of the swinging of the club?

[chippa13]

I find that thinking about the target area stops me from thinking about hitting the ball. My process for set up is to place the clubhead behind the ball while looking out at the target and then setting up the rest of my body from there, still focusing on the target. Once I feel set then I probably only look at the ball for a second or two before swinging away.

[SuperPunch]

For those who have uncontrollable hit impulse with the lead shoulder, how do you eliminate that hit impulse if you are focused exclusively on the club rather than body movements? Does it violate the spirit of MDLT to isolate and address body movement independent of the swinging of the club?

 

Something I still really struggle with, but have found better results when I feel my shoulders completely relaxed before my swing and try to keep that feeling all the way through the swing. Easier said than done. Will take a lot of practice to make it second nature.

[juststeve]

Manny would tell his students to ignore the ball and see the target as they swing. Ignore the ball is easy to understand but perhaps hard for some to do. See the target means seeing the target in the minds eye. To facilitate this one keeps his eyes on the target through the preshot routine, taking the stance and getting aligned, finding the ball with your peripheral vision. Then glance at the ball and swing to the target.

 

Don't let the ball be your master.

 

Steve

[chippa13]

Nice, I guess I have that part down.

[nlk10010]

For those who have uncontrollable hit impulse with the lead shoulder, how do you eliminate that hit impulse if you are focused exclusively on the club rather than body movements? Does it violate the spirit of MDLT to isolate and address body movement independent of the swinging of the club?

 

You rang? :)

 

I'm inferring from your post that what is bothering you is that trying to "swing the club" sort of forces you to use your shoulders (and perhaps arms) to "feel the club", and that leads to the hit impulse. If so then I understand completely, I so far have not been successful in eliminating that impulse either.

 

But what I'm trying now (and what you might want to do) is to focus on the remedies MDLT provides for shanking, fat shots, over-the-top, etc.; Trust your (upper arms). That is, I experiment with forgetting completely about the forearms and down and just quickly swing the upper arms. It's hard to do because you figure the club could go anywhere, you have no control, so you use your forearms, wrists and hands to guide it. But I THINK (I'm still experimenting) that if you can truly "trust the arms" (I think this is the phrase MDLT uses) and JUST quickly swing, say, the bicep area without waiting to extend the feeling of the swing down the forearms, the club will find its way to the ball (assuming the plane is correct, etc.).

 

Look, it's a hard thing to do; I just came back from my usual 9-hole and hit maybe three good shots out of, what, 30 or 40 (or more)? My practice swing is usually OK but when I see the ball in front of me I try to swing faster and either use my forearms or simply "jerk" my body up. I find that trying to swing at a constant pace, back and forth, gives me the best results and prevents me from trying to speed things up as I get close to impact. Of course the trick is in doing it. But in the few cases where I've actually been able to slow things down and swing at a rhythmic pace the ball pops off the face and goes much farther than when I try to guide the club with my lower arms.

 

Good luck.

[PepsiDuck]

You rang? :)

 

I'm inferring from your post that what is bothering you is that trying to "swing the club" sort of forces you to use your shoulders (and perhaps arms) to "feel the club", and that leads to the hit impulse. If so then I understand completely, I so far have not been successful in eliminating that impulse either.

 

But what I'm trying now (and what you might want to do) is to focus on the remedies MDLT provides for shanking, fat shots, over-the-top, etc.; Trust your (upper arms). That is, I experiment with forgetting completely about the forearms and down and just quickly swing the upper arms. It's hard to do because you figure the club could go anywhere, you have no control, so you use your forearms, wrists and hands to guide it. But I THINK (I'm still experimenting) that if you can truly "trust the arms" (I think this is the phrase MDLT uses) and JUST quickly swing, say, the bicep area without waiting to extend the feeling of the swing down the forearms, the club will find its way to the ball (assuming the plane is correct, etc.).

 

Look, it's a hard thing to do; I just came back from my usual 9-hole and hit maybe three good shots out of, what, 30 or 40 (or more)? My practice swing is usually OK but when I see the ball in front of me I try to swing faster and either use my forearms or simply "jerk" my body up. I find that trying to swing at a constant pace, back and forth, gives me the best results and prevents me from trying to speed things up as I get close to impact. Of course the trick is in doing it. But in the few cases where I've actually been able to slow things down and swing at a rhythmic pace the ball pops off the face and goes much farther than when I try to guide the club with my lower arms.

 

Good luck.

 

Well, I had the opportunity to hit some balls on the range with the intention of swinging the club toward the target. It almost *feels* like I'm chucking the club down the range, and I assume that's similar to the idea advocated by MDLT. Everything was great until I got to the driver and 3 wood, where I hit a bunch of low pull hooks and pull slices. After a dozen poor drives, I pulled up the book on my phone and realized that my ball position might be WAAAY too far forward. To be honest, I made the mistake of glossing over the first three chapters and assumed my setup and address would work.

 

I put the driver head in the center of my stance, felt uncomfortable as all hell, and like a switch, everything connected. :dntknw:

[BeTheBall_]

IMO, you cannot hit at the ball if you are releasing the club properly, only if you hold off the release then flip the hands.

 

The thought of getting the toe up in the forward swing,or simply swinging the club over the left shoulder have worked for me (a chronic hitter).

[PepsiDuck]

Interesting observation regarding ball position: MDLT instructs us to place the clubhead in the center between our feet and then position the ball in front of the clubhead. At first glance, it doesn't seem to make sense. However, it is the spine tilt at address that creates the perception that the ball is farther up in our stance with longer clubs, since we tilt more with the driver than we do with a wedge. The more you tilt back, the farther forward the ball appears in your stance.

 

Mind blown. :swoon: