Manual de la Torre Method

[wmblake2000]

The thing I really like about MDLT whole concept that is amplified in the mental section is he 100% identifies how responsible the player is for his mental approach - awareness of what he is actually doing and clarity about the intention of each shot.

 

This is no nonsense truth imo.

[The Pearl]

The area of mannys book no one has mentioned is the stuff at the end about the mental aspect of playing. Again simple but potent concepts.

 

The net of all my questions is: sometimes it seems to me you have to pay attention to corrective motions. This new motion will be absorbed into the core concept of mannys swing.

 

The surprising thing about my in person lessons was the mental aspect and the emphasis he puts on it during the lesson. He is always reminding you to picture the target and picture yourself swing the club to the target and/or picturing the club swinging on the arc. The mental work just does not translate fully from the book, obviously as it is hard to do from the written word. I was frankly pretty mentally toast after an hour.

 

For me, the mental targeting approach has really worked wonders in the wedge game, and the pitching/chipping game.

 

My favorite "mental" tip was him telling me that most of the driving errors will occur on long par 5s and long par 4s. As players we approach these holes and feel the need to really reach beyond or capabilities to hit it farther. As he said, you are same player from the last green to the tee so you have to strive to hit your normal drive and live with the results. I always think about it during my rounds when I play these holes. The same thing when you have a long approach shot that is just barely reachable or not reachable. I am pretty sure this alone is good for a stroke or two a round.

[juststeve]

This has been quite an exchange of thoughts. After reading de la Torre , and seeing it on video and mirrors, it comes down to this swing the club head back and forward swing with arms, everything else follows. I'm too stupid to think about anything else.

 

Seems we are trying to make a very simple concept complicated.

 

Why over analyze? The beauty is in the simplicity, thinking of these things seems to be the antithesis of what he was teaching. And I have been down that road in the past which is why I find this concept appealing.

 

1. Correct grip

2. Correct stance and alignment

3. Swing the club head back over the right shoulder

4. Swing the entire club towards the target with your arms

 

That's really all you need to think about. Everything else takes care of itself.

 

The best post of the weekend!

 

Manny's concept is simple and infallible, if you execute it properly. If it isn't working as well as you hoped, its because you aren't executing as well as you should. What you need is more practice, not an addition or subtraction from the concept.

 

Steve

[juststeve]

The area of mannys book no one has mentioned is the stuff at the end about the mental aspect of playing. Again simple but potent concepts.

 

The net of all my questions is: sometimes it seems to me you have to pay attention to corrective motions. This new motion will be absorbed into the core concept of mannys swing.

 

The surprising thing about my in person lessons was the mental aspect and the emphasis he puts on it during the lesson. He is always reminding you to picture the target and picture yourself swing the club to the target and/or picturing the club swinging on the arc. The mental work just does not translate fully from the book, obviously as it is hard to do from the written word. I was frankly pretty mentally toast after an hour.

 

For me, the mental targeting approach has really worked wonders in the wedge game, and the pitching/chipping game.

 

My favorite "mental" tip was him telling me that most of the driving errors will occur on long par 5s and long par 4s. As players we approach these holes and feel the need to really reach beyond or capabilities to hit it farther. As he said, you are same player from the last green to the tee so you have to strive to hit your normal drive and live with the results. I always think about it during my rounds when I play these holes. The same thing when you have a long approach shot that is just barely reachable or not reachable. I am pretty sure this alone is good for a stroke or two a round.

 

Many years ago Manny gave me a 20 second lesson that illustrates Pearl's point. I was on the range hitting balls and hitting them very well. Straight at my target, good trajectory and distance. Manny was on his way to his teaching area at the end of the range and stopped to watch he hit 2 or 3 shots. He came up to me and told me I was swinging very well, that he didn't want mew to change my swing, but he did want me to try something. He asked me to imagine that my club had no loft on it at all, and that I was going to hit the ball to my target entirely along the ground. He repeated don't change your swing and went over to give his lesson.

 

It took a few balls to get the mental picture Manny had given me in place but once I did I immediate began to hit the ball even better. Contact felt more solid, my trajectory became more driving, and I picked up 7 or 8 yards of carry. This not from any conscious change in set up, grip or swing, simply from a change in which I pictured, in my mind, what I was trying to do.

 

The moral to the story is that your mental picture has a lot to do with executing the swing Manny teaches. You should have a clear mental picture of the way the club will swing around your body and toward the target. By this I don't mean an intellectual understanding of the clubs motion, I mean you can close your eyes and see the arc of the club. As you swing you need to see the target, not with your eyes but in your mind. That's what makes it possible to swing in the direction of the target. You can practice these mental aspects any time and any time and any place. Sitting in a chair at home, driving to the golf course, as you fall asleep at night. If you can see the swing you can produce it.

 

Steve

[wmblake2000]

 

Manny's concept is simple and infallible, if you execute it properly. If it isn't working as well as you hoped, its because you aren't executing as well as you should. What you need is more practice, not an addition or subtraction from the concept.

 

Steve

 

It's that 'executing as well as you should' bit that causes the rub. For example, in your 'hit it along the ground' example, Manny added an intent not within the formal structure of his concept - the 'corrective' thoughts which occasionally in his book (I only saw one or two examples of this, to be honest) would add a few nuances not within the basic concept (not as he wrote it).

 

So for example, my right shoulder was not responding properly to the forward swing. I don't have Manny's wisdom to correct, but it seems to me, even though my process looked to wander far astray that the result was a new, better executed "MDLT" swing has resulted.

 

My point is, that if you're not executing properly, simply repeating the same intention (even if it is Manny's concept well understood cognitively, but not in its motion) you have will only slowly, if at all, create a better executed swing.

 

I really don't enjoy debating golf swing and theory and especially respect the culture of this thread. I just think this seems like something that ought to be at least illuminated.

[juststeve]

Manny's concept is simple and infallible, if you execute it properly. If it isn't working as well as you hoped, its because you aren't executing as well as you should. What you need is more practice, not an addition or subtraction from the concept.

 

Steve

 

It's that 'executing as well as you should' bit that causes the rub. For example, in your 'hit it along the ground' example, Manny added an intent not within the formal structure of his concept - the 'corrective' thoughts which occasionally in his book (I only saw one or two examples of this, to be honest) would add a few nuances not within the basic concept (not as he wrote it).

 

So for example, my right shoulder was not responding properly to the forward swing. I don't have Manny's wisdom to correct, but it seems to me, even though my process looked to wander far astray that the result was a new, better executed "MDLT" swing has resulted.

 

My point is, that if you're not executing properly, simply repeating the same intention (even if it is Manny's concept well understood cognitively, but not in its motion) you have will only slowly, if at all, create a better executed swing.

 

I really don't enjoy debating golf swing and theory and especially respect the culture of this thread. I just think this seems like something that ought to be at least illuminated.

 

You are mistaken. Manny always taught that you want to hit the ball forward, not down, in the direction of the target. It's in the book. It's why Manny calls it the forward swing, not the down swing as many instructors do. In my case all he did was suggest an image that he thought would help me swing forward in the direction of the target better. It worked but it was in no way a deviation from his concept. He might not have suggested the same image to someone else but in all cases he would want the student to swing the club forward in the direction of the target.

 

As to your particular problem you might try hitting balls with you feet together which may quiet your shoulders. Hitting balls with one arm at a time is also an effective way of getting the club swinging and the shoulders responding. Undoing bad habits takes time but in the long run will be worth it.

 

Steve

[The Pearl]

The area of mannys book no one has mentioned is the stuff at the end about the mental aspect of playing. Again simple but potent concepts.

 

The net of all my questions is: sometimes it seems to me you have to pay attention to corrective motions. This new motion will be absorbed into the core concept of mannys swing.

 

The surprising thing about my in person lessons was the mental aspect and the emphasis he puts on it during the lesson. He is always reminding you to picture the target and picture yourself swing the club to the target and/or picturing the club swinging on the arc. The mental work just does not translate fully from the book, obviously as it is hard to do from the written word. I was frankly pretty mentally toast after an hour.

 

For me, the mental targeting approach has really worked wonders in the wedge game, and the pitching/chipping game.

 

My favorite "mental" tip was him telling me that most of the driving errors will occur on long par 5s and long par 4s. As players we approach these holes and feel the need to really reach beyond or capabilities to hit it farther. As he said, you are same player from the last green to the tee so you have to strive to hit your normal drive and live with the results. I always think about it during my rounds when I play these holes. The same thing when you have a long approach shot that is just barely reachable or not reachable. I am pretty sure this alone is good for a stroke or two a round.

 

Many years ago Manny gave me a 20 second lesson that illustrates Pearl's point. I was on the range hitting balls and hitting them very well. Straight at my target, good trajectory and distance. Manny was on his way to his teaching area at the end of the range and stopped to watch he hit 2 or 3 shots. He came up to me and told me I was swinging very well, that he didn't want mew to change my swing, but he did want me to try something. He asked me to imagine that my club had no loft on it at all, and that I was going to hit the ball to my target entirely along the ground. He repeated don't change your swing and went over to give his lesson.

 

It took a few balls to get the mental picture Manny had given me in place but once I did I immediate began to hit the ball even better. Contact felt more solid, my trajectory became more driving, and I picked up 7 or 8 yards of carry. This not from any conscious change in set up, grip or swing, simply from a change in which I pictured, in my mind, what I was trying to do.

 

The moral to the story is that your mental picture has a lot to do with executing the swing Manny teaches. You should have a clear mental picture of the way the club will swing around your body and toward the target. By this I don't mean an intellectual understanding of the clubs motion, I mean you can close your eyes and see the arc of the club. As you swing you need to see the target, not with your eyes but in your mind. That's what makes it possible to swing in the direction of the target. You can practice these mental aspects any time and any time and any place. Sitting in a chair at home, driving to the golf course, as you fall asleep at night. If you can see the swing you can produce it.

 

Steve

 

Steve,

 

I have always been intrigued by the concept of the club having no loft at all and imagining that the ball will travel along the ground. I have never quite been able to fully grasp the entirety of the concept. I am assuming the intention results in keeping the club on the arc longer and subsequently better swinging toward the target? When I have tried this intention I find "myself" moving toward the target along with the club.

 

Since my tendency is slight pulls, I am guessing this might be an exercise to work on that may help. Am I piecing this together correctly?

 

I am also just brainstorming here, but I am wondering if practicing with a 3 wood/2 iron type club would be of benefit in this concept?

[juststeve]

I often heard Manny remind students that it is the golfers job to swing the club, its the club's job to get the ball in the air. In other words just swing the club toward the target. Make no effort to get the ball in the sir. I suspect it was something like that which Manny detected before he gave me the micro lesson I described.

 

Your assumption as I read it is wrong. The club is not on the arc for a longer or shorter time, it's always on the arc. An attempt to keep it going straight at the target after impact means it is no longer swinging, it's being pushed, pulled or levered. The arc is around a fixed center in your body which must not be allowed to go to the target before the ball is gone. The club goes to the target, not you. It is only in the finish position when you are erect over your front foot that the swing center may be closer to the target than it was at address of through out the swing.

 

Steve

[The Pearl]

Thanks Steve. That makes it more clear.

[nlk10010]

Manny's concept is simple and infallible, if you execute it properly. If it isn't working as well as you hoped, its because you aren't executing as well as you should. What you need is more practice, not an addition or subtraction from the concept.

 

Steve

 

It's that 'executing as well as you should' bit that causes the rub. For example, in your 'hit it along the ground' example, Manny added an intent not within the formal structure of his concept - the 'corrective' thoughts which occasionally in his book (I only saw one or two examples of this, to be honest) would add a few nuances not within the basic concept (not as he wrote it).

 

So for example, my right shoulder was not responding properly to the forward swing. I don't have Manny's wisdom to correct, but it seems to me, even though my process looked to wander far astray that the result was a new, better executed "MDLT" swing has resulted.

 

My point is, that if you're not executing properly, simply repeating the same intention (even if it is Manny's concept well understood cognitively, but not in its motion) you have will only slowly, if at all, create a better executed swing.

 

I really don't enjoy debating golf swing and theory and especially respect the culture of this thread. I just think this seems like something that ought to be at least illuminated.

 

I agree with you. As much as I like the MDLT approach, the devil is in the details (e.g. you have to make sure you're on the correct plane when coming down, try to brush the grass in front of the ball). I don't think simply trying continuously to implement the three or four simple ideas Manny offers is going to do anything for the majority of duffers. Any approach, to succeed, takes persistence and attention to detail.

[juststeve]

nik10010:

 

Many times I have said that Manny's concept is simple but not easy. If you acquire the skill to do it right it will work. If not you can't expect it to work

 

If you are willing to work on your game Manny's approach has one distinctive benefit. You will know what to work on, what to do to hit straight powerful shots. The try this and do that approach of many instructors is always incomplete. For the followers of Manny approach there should never be any doubt about what to do with the club. You still have to learn to do it, and to practice until you do it well and consistently, but once you do you will never need a band aid again.

 

Steve

[Beane_Disciple]

I am a Frankenstein of modern golf instruction. I found this thread out of desperation. I have an unreal (+ handicap easily) short game but cannot hit the ball to save my life. Today I shot 79 while hitting 5 greens in regulation and taking 2 penalty strokes and having to play out of the trees three other times. But I only had 28 putts so I was able to score. My head is so full and cluttered I just feel paralyzed. Every hot new swing tip I chase just adds fuel to the fire. Is this a fairly simple, straightforward method?

[juststeve]

I am a Frankenstein of modern golf instruction. I found this thread out of desperation. I have an unreal (+ handicap easily) short game but cannot hit the ball to save my life. Today I shot 79 while hitting 5 greens in regulation and taking 2 penalty strokes and having to play out of the trees three other times. But I only had 28 putts so I was able to score. My head is so full and cluttered I just feel paralyzed. Every hot new swing tip I chase just adds fuel to the fire. Is this a fairly simple, straightforward method?

 

Very simple, very straight forward, but not an instant cure for what ails you. A number of guys who have posted here play two or three rounds with Manny's concept and wonder why it hasn't worked yet. It isn't working yet because they aren't dong it correctly yet. Give yourself a couple of months and a few thousand balls, doing only what Manny taught and you will be a better ball striker. If your not you will be the first one in my experience not to improve.

 

Steve

[airjammer]

Steve...Did you ever hear Manny ever say anything about flat or too steep shoulders on the backswing to a student?

[nlk10010]

nik10010:

 

Many times I have said that Manny's concept is simple but not easy. If you acquire the skill to do it right it will work. If not you can't expect it to work

 

If you are willing to work on your game Manny's approach has one distinctive benefit. You will know what to work on, what to do to hit straight powerful shots. The try this and do that approach of many instructors is always incomplete. For the followers of Manny approach there should never be any doubt about what to do with the club. You still have to learn to do it, and to practice until you do it well and consistently, but once you do you will never need a band aid again.

 

Steve

 

First, I appreciate that you take the time to post and help other golfers who, like myself, may be struggling with their swing (actually, struggling doesn't begin to describe my situation but I'm assuming it does that of others).

 

I think the genius of Manny was the packaging and presentation of his concepts. He emphasized that ultimately the MAIN points of a good swing are simple; further that intention can have real effects. Unlike many other instructors, he left many of the details out of the main discussion and relegated them to specific troubleshooting steps. This is as opposed to those other instructors who present concepts (which may in fact be just as simple as Manny's) in a more complicated way, by offering a plethora of drills and seemingly disparate and sometimes distracting pointers (videos), all designed to help students implement their basic idea of the swing.

 

All I'm saying is that even with the MDLT method it ISN'T that simple; once you get into working on his concepts you may need to avail yourself of drills and pointers to better grasp those basic concepts. I gave the example of the plane (path/direction), someone else (perhaps you) gave the examples of the "brush the grass" and "zero loft" tips. You say these were just ways of Manny getting people to implement his concepts, a statement with which I agree, but the pointers other instructors offer are that as well, no different. So what a student will end up with when delving into Manny's method is the genius idea of a few simple core concepts PLUS some tips which Manny hoped would help students implement those concepts. Add the drills to the pointers and you've got a list which, while still relatively small, is by no means simple in nature.

 

What I appreciate most about MDLT's approach is what I find helpful when teaching (my day job): Impart confidence by presenting the problem in simple terms. Then, when students become involved in finding a solution hit them with the dirty little details that will bring the whole process to a successful conclusion.

[Beane_Disciple]

I am a Frankenstein of modern golf instruction. I found this thread out of desperation. I have an unreal (+ handicap easily) short game but cannot hit the ball to save my life. Today I shot 79 while hitting 5 greens in regulation and taking 2 penalty strokes and having to play out of the trees three other times. But I only had 28 putts so I was able to score. My head is so full and cluttered I just feel paralyzed. Every hot new swing tip I chase just adds fuel to the fire. Is this a fairly simple, straightforward method?

 

Very simple, very straight forward, but not an instant cure for what ails you. A number of guys who have posted here play two or three rounds with Manny's concept and wonder why it hasn't worked yet. It isn't working yet because they aren't dong it correctly yet. Give yourself a couple of months and a few thousand balls, doing only what Manny taught and you will be a better ball striker. If your not you will be the first one in my experience not to improve.

 

Steve

 

 

I ordered his book from Amazon but it won't be here for a few days. Is there somewhere that has a brief list of key ideas and concepts or drills? I'm anxious to get started and maybe have some clarity for the first time ever...

[NoTalentLefty]

Tried the MDLT swing yesterday. Irons issue were hitting behind the ball slightly. Think he gives a why in his book.

The biggest thing I've noticed? No back pain.

I see a similarity between MDLT and Ballard method in this part. More of an erect swing.

[dlygrisse]

I am a Frankenstein of modern golf instruction. I found this thread out of desperation. I have an unreal (+ handicap easily) short game but cannot hit the ball to save my life. Today I shot 79 while hitting 5 greens in regulation and taking 2 penalty strokes and having to play out of the trees three other times. But I only had 28 putts so I was able to score. My head is so full and cluttered I just feel paralyzed. Every hot new swing tip I chase just adds fuel to the fire. Is this a fairly simple, straightforward method?

 

Very simple, very straight forward, but not an instant cure for what ails you. A number of guys who have posted here play two or three rounds with Manny's concept and wonder why it hasn't worked yet. It isn't working yet because they aren't dong it correctly yet. Give yourself a couple of months and a few thousand balls, doing only what Manny taught and you will be a better ball striker. If your not you will be the first one in my experience not to improve.

 

Steve

 

 

I ordered his book from Amazon but it won't be here for a few days. Is there somewhere that has a brief list of key ideas and concepts or drills? I'm anxious to get started and maybe have some clarity for the first time ever...

 

Just read JustSteves posts in this thread. It's all the good stuff you need to know. The book just more info on corrective measures etc. this thread is pure gold and his posts consolidate the important parts.

[dlygrisse]

Tried the MDLT swing yesterday. Irons issue were hitting behind the ball slightly. Think he gives a why in his book.

The biggest thing I've noticed? No back pain.

I see a similarity between MDLT and Ballard method in this part. More of an erect swing.

stick with it like anything it takes some practice. And yes one of the main reasons I am all in is to take pressure off my back. The last several years I was in so much pain after 9 I could barely finish 18. With this method I actually play two days in a row.

[parmark]

nik10010:

 

Many times I have said that Manny's concept is simple but not easy. If you acquire the skill to do it right it will work. If not you can't expect it to work

 

If you are willing to work on your game Manny's approach has one distinctive benefit. You will know what to work on, what to do to hit straight powerful shots. The try this and do that approach of many instructors is always incomplete. For the followers of Manny approach there should never be any doubt about what to do with the club. You still have to learn to do it, and to practice until you do it well and consistently, but once you do you will never need a band aid again.

 

Steve

 

First, I appreciate that you take the time to post and help other golfers who, like myself, may be struggling with their swing (actually, struggling doesn't begin to describe my situation but I'm assuming it does that of others).

 

I think the genius of Manny was the packaging and presentation of his concepts. He emphasized that ultimately the MAIN points of a good swing are simple; further that intention can have real effects. Unlike many other instructors, he left many of the details out of the main discussion and relegated them to specific troubleshooting steps. This is as opposed to those other instructors who present concepts (which may in fact be just as simple as Manny's) in a more complicated way, by offering a plethora of drills and seemingly disparate and sometimes distracting pointers (videos), all designed to help students implement their basic idea of the swing.

 

All I'm saying is that even with the MDLT method it ISN'T that simple; once you get into working on his concepts you may need to avail yourself of drills and pointers to better grasp those basic concepts. I gave the example of the plane (path/direction), someone else (perhaps you) gave the examples of the "brush the grass" and "zero loft" tips. You say these were just ways of Manny getting people to implement his concepts, a statement with which I agree, but the pointers other instructors offer are that as well, no different. So what a student will end up with when delving into Manny's method is the genius idea of a few simple core concepts PLUS some tips which Manny hoped would help students implement those concepts. Add the drills to the pointers and you've got a list which, while still relatively small, is by no means simple in nature.

 

What I appreciate most about MDLT's approach is what I find helpful when teaching (my day job): Impart confidence by presenting the problem in simple terms. Then, when students become involved in finding a solution hit them with the dirty little details that will bring the whole process to a successful conclusion.

 

We must be reading different versions of this book. What I like about this and find works best for me is the simplicity - swing the club back with your hands and then forward with your arms as though it were one motion.

 

I like the fact there's not a lot of thinking or drills/moves/tips/gymnastics involved.

 

I'm only two months in, never hit it better or had more enjoyment striking a golf ball. Can't wait to find the cure for my putting woes next!

[nlk10010]

We must be reading different versions of this book. What I like about this and find works best for me is the simplicity - swing the club back with your hands and then forward with your arms as though it were one motion.

 

I like the fact there's not a lot of thinking or drills/moves/tips/gymnastics involved.

 

I'm only two months in, never hit it better or had more enjoyment striking a golf ball. Can't wait to find the cure for my putting woes next!

 

Well, if the book you're referring to doesn't have tips/drills like the twirling a weight at the end of a string to better understand the concept of swinging the club or the start the backswing twelve inches from the ball to get a feeling for the correct downswing path then indeed we're talking about different books.

[The Pearl]

nik10010:

 

Many times I have said that Manny's concept is simple but not easy. If you acquire the skill to do it right it will work. If not you can't expect it to work

 

If you are willing to work on your game Manny's approach has one distinctive benefit. You will know what to work on, what to do to hit straight powerful shots. The try this and do that approach of many instructors is always incomplete. For the followers of Manny approach there should never be any doubt about what to do with the club. You still have to learn to do it, and to practice until you do it well and consistently, but once you do you will never need a band aid again.

 

Steve

 

First, I appreciate that you take the time to post and help other golfers who, like myself, may be struggling with their swing (actually, struggling doesn't begin to describe my situation but I'm assuming it does that of others).

 

I think the genius of Manny was the packaging and presentation of his concepts. He emphasized that ultimately the MAIN points of a good swing are simple; further that intention can have real effects. Unlike many other instructors, he left many of the details out of the main discussion and relegated them to specific troubleshooting steps. This is as opposed to those other instructors who present concepts (which may in fact be just as simple as Manny's) in a more complicated way, by offering a plethora of drills and seemingly disparate and sometimes distracting pointers (videos), all designed to help students implement their basic idea of the swing.

 

All I'm saying is that even with the MDLT method it ISN'T that simple; once you get into working on his concepts you may need to avail yourself of drills and pointers to better grasp those basic concepts. I gave the example of the plane (path/direction), someone else (perhaps you) gave the examples of the "brush the grass" and "zero loft" tips. You say these were just ways of Manny getting people to implement his concepts, a statement with which I agree, but the pointers other instructors offer are that as well, no different. So what a student will end up with when delving into Manny's method is the genius idea of a few simple core concepts PLUS some tips which Manny hoped would help students implement those concepts. Add the drills to the pointers and you've got a list which, while still relatively small, is by no means simple in nature.

 

What I appreciate most about MDLT's approach is what I find helpful when teaching (my day job): Impart confidence by presenting the problem in simple terms. Then, when students become involved in finding a solution hit them with the dirty little details that will bring the whole process to a successful conclusion.

 

As I have mentioned a time or two in other MDLT threads, the hardest part about committing to MDLT's approach is the unlearning of the "learning" prior. I spent about 4 hours taking lessons with him. Everything we did, discussed, etc. is in the book. He uses the exact language on the lesson tee as he does in the book.

 

In terms of MDLT being simple, it depends on one's definition of simple. In terms of the golf swing, is MDLT simple in absolute or relative terms?

[wmblake2000]

 

You are mistaken.

 

Steve

 

Haha! You're right! It may come as no surprise but I have been mistaken many times in life. Just don't tell my wife.

 

You're right because I did a 'golf orgy' today. Walked 36 on a beautiful Los Angeles day. Expected to shoot in the mid 70's on the first 18.

 

Ha. My whole mind was cluttered. It took me all 18 to return to the simple idea of swing the club back and forward. Once I did, with the one extra element of swing it forward so my r foot is pulled off the ground earlier and wham I hit the ball beautifully. Still didn't score because my normal reliable putter abandoned me but the MDLT swing concept as I currently understand it was wonderful. Even at the 36th hole after waking for 9+ hrs I was hitting it great. Plus not so passive a brag I was stoked to walk 36 pulling my bag at 64.

 

The one thing I really felt most challenged by was MDLT's ideas about mental focus. I am a psychologist and have read a lot of sports psych books. I think MDLT hits the nail most squarely on the head. Like with his swing concept, it is simple but not easy. What I read him to say is the goal is to have a clear idea on each swing about target and the swing. This sound so simple but it just isn't. But the simplicity of his point - like with the swing concept - is compelling to me.

 

I saw many interesting posts today and eager to read them ... tomorrow!

[juststeve]

Steve...Did you ever hear Manny ever say anything about flat or too steep shoulders on the backswing to a student?

 

Manny never talked about about how specific body parts move except to say their movement is a reaction to the swinging of the club. What he would do is take hold of your club while you were in your address position, ask you to relax and move thew club back and forth so you could feel a swinging motion. Sometimes he would carry the club all the way to when it was over the trail shoulder and ask the student to observe the reaction of the body to the proper swinging motion.

 

Manny's reason for not teaching body movements was several fold. First he thought that how the body moves is much less important than how the club moves. He often said that if the club is moving properly it doesn't matter what your body is dong, the shot will turn out fine. Second he believed that there was no standardized way everyone's body would react to swinging the club properly. That would be an individual thing determined by the individual students body make up. I am living proof of what Manny believed since my body has changed a lot since I first met Manny. So has the way my body moves even though I still move the club the same way he taught me. Getting old sucks.

 

Steve

[Jp k]

I am a Frankenstein of modern golf instruction. I found this thread out of desperation. I have an unreal (+ handicap easily) short game but cannot hit the ball to save my life. Today I shot 79 while hitting 5 greens in regulation and taking 2 penalty strokes and having to play out of the trees three other times. But I only had 28 putts so I was able to score. My head is so full and cluttered I just feel paralyzed. Every hot new swing tip I chase just adds fuel to the fire. Is this a fairly simple, straightforward method?

 

Very simple, very straight forward, but not an instant cure for what ails you. A number of guys who have posted here play two or three rounds with Manny's concept and wonder why it hasn't worked yet. It isn't working yet because they aren't dong it correctly yet. Give yourself a couple of months and a few thousand balls, doing only what Manny taught and you will be a better ball striker. If your not you will be the first one in my experience not to improve.

 

Steve

Steve, can I ask a somewhat detailed question? I am 100% there on the backswing and the arc concept but the downswing is my area of focus. I have largely eliminated any sort of handsy or flip release through ensuring that my weight continues to move around the outside of my left foot until the weight is in my left heel. So, hips can continue to move, arms, shoulders, etc...

 

But, the big distinction is that move needs to get going early and sort of helps pull the arms through the target on the arc. I have won twice recently and always top 5. Extremely happy with this 'variation'. My FIR and GIR are up hugely and near par rounds and 9s much more frequent. Seems actually quite natural and I wonder if you do it subcon to a small degree, which is all it takes.

 

So, my questions are do you struggle with release issues when you are off ?

 

And, do you feel that a body/arms in sync downswing is fine or is it counter to his teaching?

[juststeve]

Tried the MDLT swing yesterday. Irons issue were hitting behind the ball slightly. Think he gives a why in his book.

The biggest thing I've noticed? No back pain.

I see a similarity between MDLT and Ballard method in this part. More of an erect swing.

 

Lefty:

 

For hitting behind the ball I would suggest that you consider the following:

 

1. Ball position. The club head is in the center of the stance and the ball immediately in front of the club head. This is for all shots when the ball is sitting in a normal fairway lie. Make sure your shoulders are parallel to the intended line of flight, not open or closed.

 

2. Weight distribution . At address and at the end of the back swing your weight is distributed evenly, 50% right and left. Others may find this controversial but there is good reason for it. First, it keeps your swing center stationary which promotes a swing that bottoms out in the same place every time. Second, it allows the weight shift to the front foot to be a pure reaction to the forward swinging of the club. No conscious move to get back to the front foot is a useful simplification. It will feel odd if you are accustomed to weight shifting, but it is an important part of the concept and may be enough to get rid of the heavy contact.

 

3. Mental image. You already know that we swing the club on an arc. Make it your mental image that you are swinging the club backwards and forward on the arc. not up and down. So long as your swing center remains steady backward and forward will produce all the up and down you need and give you a shallow angle of attack into the back of the ball.

 

Hope one or all of these thoughts help.

 

Steve

[Cicero]

Steve...Did you ever hear Manny ever say anything about flat or too steep shoulders on the backswing to a student?

 

Manny never talked about about how specific body parts move except to say their movement is a reaction to the swinging of the club. What he would do is take hold of your club while you were in your address position, ask you to relax and move thew club back and forth so you could feel a swinging motion. Sometimes he would carry the club all the way to when it was over the trail shoulder and ask the student to observe the reaction of the body to the proper swinging motion.

 

Manny's reason for not teaching body movements was several fold. First he thought that how the body moves is much less important than how the club moves. He often said that if the club is moving properly it doesn't matter what your body is dong, the shot will turn out fine. Second he believed that there was no standardized way everyone's body would react to swinging the club properly. That would be an individual thing determined by the individual students body make up. I am living proof of what Manny believed since my body has changed a lot since I first met Manny. So has the way my body moves even though I still move the club the same way he taught me. Getting old sucks.

 

Steve

 

Probably the best thing about using hand, arm, or club-focused methods that allow the body to respond (not follow; there's a difference) is the flexibility.

 

Whether it's changes due to age, injury, or just the different lies of the course, it's a lot easier to make a good swing and hit a decent shot when the body is "given permission" to do whatever it has to do (or whatever it's capable of doing), given the situation, in order help deliver the club to the ball, and the ball to the target. At least in my experience, anyway.

[juststeve]

I am a Frankenstein of modern golf instruction. I found this thread out of desperation. I have an unreal (+ handicap easily) short game but cannot hit the ball to save my life. Today I shot 79 while hitting 5 greens in regulation and taking 2 penalty strokes and having to play out of the trees three other times. But I only had 28 putts so I was able to score. My head is so full and cluttered I just feel paralyzed. Every hot new swing tip I chase just adds fuel to the fire. Is this a fairly simple, straightforward method?

 

Very simple, very straight forward, but not an instant cure for what ails you. A number of guys who have posted here play two or three rounds with Manny's concept and wonder why it hasn't worked yet. It isn't working yet because they aren't dong it correctly yet. Give yourself a couple of months and a few thousand balls, doing only what Manny taught and you will be a better ball striker. If your not you will be the first one in my experience not to improve.

 

Steve

Steve, can I ask a somewhat detailed question? I am 100% there on the backswing and the arc concept but the downswing is my area of focus. I have largely eliminated any sort of handsy or flip release through ensuring that my weight continues to move around the outside of my left foot until the weight is in my left heel. So, hips can continue to move, arms, shoulders, etc...

 

But, the big distinction is that move needs to get going early and sort of helps pull the arms through the target on the arc. I have won twice recently and always top 5. Extremely happy with this 'variation'. My FIR and GIR are up hugely and near par rounds and 9s much more frequent. Seems actually quite natural and I wonder if you do it subcon to a small degree, which is all it takes.

 

So, my questions are do you struggle with release issues when you are off ?

 

And, do you feel that a body/arms in sync downswing is fine or is it counter to his teaching?

 

You are playing well and I'm happy for you. From your post it seems that you are playing well but not using Manny's concept to any great degree. Manny never claimed his concept was the only or even best way to swing a club and would never try to change someone who was satisfied with the way he was hitting the ball. Neither would I.

 

To your questions. No I don't struggle with release. I don't even conceive of release as a separate part of my swing. The club squares up largely as a consequence of the whole club being swung on an arc from a toe up position prior to impact to a toe up position post impact.

 

Manny taught that the body responds freely and immediately to the swinging of the club, both backwards and forwards. If the body responds in that manner it will be in sync with the club.

 

Keep up the good play!

 

Steve

[Jp k]

I am a Frankenstein of modern golf instruction. I found this thread out of desperation. I have an unreal (+ handicap easily) short game but cannot hit the ball to save my life. Today I shot 79 while hitting 5 greens in regulation and taking 2 penalty strokes and having to play out of the trees three other times. But I only had 28 putts so I was able to score. My head is so full and cluttered I just feel paralyzed. Every hot new swing tip I chase just adds fuel to the fire. Is this a fairly simple, straightforward method?

 

Very simple, very straight forward, but not an instant cure for what ails you. A number of guys who have posted here play two or three rounds with Manny's concept and wonder why it hasn't worked yet. It isn't working yet because they aren't dong it correctly yet. Give yourself a couple of months and a few thousand balls, doing only what Manny taught and you will be a better ball striker. If your not you will be the first one in my experience not to improve.

 

Steve

Steve, can I ask a somewhat detailed question? I am 100% there on the backswing and the arc concept but the downswing is my area of focus. I have largely eliminated any sort of handsy or flip release through ensuring that my weight continues to move around the outside of my left foot until the weight is in my left heel. So, hips can continue to move, arms, shoulders, etc...

 

But, the big distinction is that move needs to get going early and sort of helps pull the arms through the target on the arc. I have won twice recently and always top 5. Extremely happy with this 'variation'. My FIR and GIR are up hugely and near par rounds and 9s much more frequent. Seems actually quite natural and I wonder if you do it subcon to a small degree, which is all it takes.

 

So, my questions are do you struggle with release issues when you are off ?

 

And, do you feel that a body/arms in sync downswing is fine or is it counter to his teaching?

 

You are playing well and I'm happy for you. From your post it seems that you are playing well but not using Manny's concept to any great degree. Manny never claimed his concept was the only or even best way to swing a club and would never try to change someone who was satisfied with the way he was hitting the ball. Neither would I.

 

To your questions. No I don't struggle with release. I don't even conceive of release as a separate part of my swing. The club squares up largely as a consequence of the whole club being swung on an arc from a toe up position prior to impact to a toe up position post impact.

 

Manny taught that the body responds freely and immediately to the swinging of the club, both backwards and forwards. If the body responds in that manner it will be in sync with the club.

 

Keep up the good play!

 

Steve

cheers. Thanks. I certainly feel I do the backswing properly, it's simply the transition I just get way too upper body focused. But, like you said, it works for me so I'm not going to fight it. I think it's quite natural and refreshing to no longer think about hands/forearms through the impact area. So, I'll incubate that until the next glitch!

[juststeve]

jp k:

 

For when you want to delve deeper into Manny's concept the transition is merely a shift of intention from swinging the club head back and over your trail shoulder with both hands, to swinging the whole club forward, in the direction of the target, in one continuous motion, using both arms with the body responding. In the concept the weight shift and motion of the body is purely a reaction, never deliberate. Might give it a try after your competitive season is over and you have lots of range time.

 

Steve