Manual de la Torre Method

[wmblake2000]

For me the hands vs arms is clear. When I swing with arms, wrists are relaxed, lag is sustained and I am more on plane.

 

As to a trip to Dallas ... My son, his wife and grandchildren are there so we go often. I'd love to do it!

 

I have read those studies about performance and focus on target vs body. They do say target or outcome focus is more effective.

 

I think MDLT idea of focusing on club makes sense. This is a great intermediate outcome. Also MDLT writes about target focus in the address and during the swing.

 

Both his approach and my experience makes including body intentions a part of the package of learning. What I think is complex, non-intuitive and brief motion must require a transition from body to club to target. But I am 75% body, 15% club, 10% target. They kind of begin to meld in a single thing on some swings.

[slantsflood]

I "surrender" to Manuel's fans on this thread and won't post anymore.

 

You don't have to surrender anything. Manuel and Jones are from the same tree. But it's like going into a Jones thread and saying "upper arms" when most are using their hands. Know what I mean?

 

[The Pearl]

Is there any of you who would be interested in a mdlt weekend? A place where we could all meet, and some of you who knew Manuel could share some of his teachings and we could play golf all weekend. Maybe one weekend a year we all get together in perhaps Dallas? Just throwing it out there.

 

I have a Nebraska golf tour on my wish list. I am within driving distance. I can't do this year, but am seriously considering in 2017. Wildhorse, etc.

 

Slants,

 

There is a MDLT disciple in Dakota Dunes, SD. He teaches the MDLT method. I have had some in depth conversations with him via twitter. A really great guy. His name is Rodd Slater and he is out of Two Rivers Golf Course. I am going to go see him at some point in time for a MDLT lesson.

 

I think it would be more than worth your time to explore going to see him.

 

http://slatergolf.blogspot.com/

[slantsflood]

Thanks Pearl! I'm definitely interested in something like that. His blog is pretty impressive, and looks like he's followed Manuel's teachings. Anytime you want to do the Nebraska trip, let me know, I'm in!

[Jasonic]

I "surrender" to Manuel's fans on this thread and won't post anymore.

 

What a thoughtful guy. Buh bye.

[NoTalentLefty]

To the MDLT adherents. What I'm seeing in the mirror when the hands go back and the leading of the right upper arm (LHed), looks much like the body swing . I'm I missing it? If I'm doing it right it's an easy learn .

[dlygrisse]

If it is working for you and others that's great. Keep doing what is working. It worked for me when I first tried it more than a decade ago for a short time but thenI had to go back to the original Ernest Jones "Swing The Clubhead".

 

The real conceptual difference is swinging the clubhead vs. swinging the entire club.

[wmblake2000]

To the MDLT adherents. What I'm seeing in the mirror when the hands go back and the leading of the right upper arm (LHed), looks much like the body swing . I'm I missing it? If I'm doing it right it's an easy learn .

 

I don't know that you would see much difference by looking. Everything ends up doing more or less the same thing in the same sequence.

 

It's an easy learn ... not too many ideas. But it's not an easy learn to really dig into the layers of subtly. Switching you attention to club and target, letting your body really follow.

 

It's like juststeve said to me. It's not that MDLT doesn't understand or recognize the importance of the details he doesn't address. They have to happen in a good swing. But how to get them to happen via his way is a very different approach. It seems to me it requires a lot more awareness of your swing and more responsibility and understanding of it. (Well I added a bit to what Steve said).

[birly-shirly]

More on the grip.

 

I posted before on how I was struggling with a "neutral" grip as described in Manuel's book, where "neutral" is defined as the Vs on each hand pointing to the middle of the body. My own comfortable grip looks somewhat stronger, with Vs pointing somewhere between right shoulder and right ear.

 

Manuel's DVD opens up another perspective on this, which is interesting. For one, he explicitly addresses something that I was aware of - that the closer you have the left thumb to the base of the index finger, the stronger the V appears even though the alignment of the hand hasn't otherwise changed.

 

The second thing the DVD brings out is that when Manuel discusses "balance" in the grip (by which he means the strength of each hand's alignment), he doesn't talk first about the Vs at all. He opens up the grip and places the end cap of a club's grip flush against the opened palm. In a balanced grip, a club perpendicular to the palm should be parallel to the target line.

 

So, when I try this with my habitual strong grip, what do I find? Actually my left/top hand is nicely perpendicular to the target line and probably doesn't need weakened at all, even though the V appears in a strong position and I can see 2/3 knuckles. My right hand probably is still a little "strong" but I'm much more comfortable with changing its position and still being able to hit the ball.

[juststeve]

Were I to criticize Manny's book it would be the section on the grip, not because it's wrong but because it is incomplete. Manny wanted his students to grip the club in a manner that would allow the club face to return to the ball in a square position, without manipulation. He understood that this varied at least to some extent from person to person, and devised a method for finding your personal hand alignment. He would ask you to hold the club, in a relaxed fashion, in one hand, horizontally in front of you, with the leading edge pointing straight up. He would then pull on the club head straight away from you to see if the pulling action cause the alignment of the leading edge to change. He would do the same with the other hand. If in neither case the alignment changed that would be the way the individual should align his hands on the grip, If the pulling force on the club caused the alignment of the leading edge to change he would ask you to adjust your grip so that was eliminated. His belief was that a swinging club pulls on the hands and he wanted the club face to return to impact aligned as it was at address in spite of the pulling force of the swing.

 

My difficulty in describing this procedure may explain why its not in the book. The moral is your grip doesn't have to look a particular way so long as the club returns square at impact without conscious manipulation.

 

Steve

[BeTheBall_]

Great post Steve!

[BeTheBall_]

I'm working on trying to improve my grip, weakening it feels so uncomfortable - throws my feel for the club off. As he cautions in the book though, I was probably trying to change it too much, too quickly.

[birly-shirly]

I'm working on trying to improve my grip, weakening it feels so uncomfortable - throws my feel for the club off. As he cautions in the book though, I was probably trying to change it too much, too quickly.

 

That was very much my problem. Now I think my grip turns out to be largely fine if I check the palms rather than the Vs. Your grip might not need weakening at all.

[Shilgy]

Were I to criticize Manny's book it would be the section on the grip, not because it's wrong but because it is incomplete. Manny wanted his students to grip the club in a manner that would allow the club face to return to the ball in a square position, without manipulation. He understood that this varied at least to some extent from person to person, and devised a method for finding your personal hand alignment. He would ask you to hold the club, in a relaxed fashion, in one hand, horizontally in front of you, with the leading edge pointing straight up. He would then pull on the club head straight away from you to see if the pulling action cause the alignment of the leading edge to change. He would do the same with the other hand. If in neither case the alignment changed that would be the way the individual should align his hands on the grip, If the pulling force on the club caused the alignment of the leading edge to change he would ask you to adjust your grip so that was eliminated. His belief was that a swinging club pulls on the hands and he wanted the club face to return to impact aligned as it was at address in spite of the pulling force of the swing.

 

My difficulty in describing this procedure may explain why its not in the book. The moral is your grip doesn't have to look a particular way so long as the club returns square at impact without conscious manipulation.

 

Steve

Ted Purdy came up with a way to do this grip test yourself. Ted was taught the MDLT method of playing golf from the time he was a young boy by Pam Barnett, a student of Manuel.

 

http://www.tedpurdy.com/

[juststeve]

Shilgy:

 

That looks very cool. I think Manny would approve.

 

Steve

[Jasonic]

Wondering if anyone has read the George Knudsen book "the natural golf swing"

 

He advocates everything manny does - same grip, swing to the target, not the ball, the body will follow the club - pretty much everything except he advocates the arms, hands, shoulders to be completely passive and using the shifting of the weight using the feet to swing the club. Very interesting as all the INTENTS are exactly the same and he has a great way of explaining his ideas, especially the target in the minds eye.

 

Just thought it interesting as they are the same but feet instead of hands and arms.

[juststeve]

There are certain thing that one must do to hit powerful shots in the direction of the target. Those things are the core of what Manny taught and apply to anyone. Think of them as universal truths of the golf swing. They include that the club must swing, on an arc, in the direction of the target. These are essential to hitting straight powerful shots and without exception all great ball strikers have done that. They are not preferences, they are rooted in the laws of physics.

 

There is a separate question of how one is to swing the club on an arc in the direction of the target. Now we are in to preferences. Manny's preferred method is what gets discussed here a lot, hands back, arms forward. Swinging the club on an arc, in the direction of the target remains the fundamental, hands back arms forward is just Manny's preference about how to impart the proper motion to the club. Its a damn good way to make the club move in the correct manner but it isn't the only way. If George Knudsen had the club moving correctly, no matter how he chose to power his swing, Manny would approve, because it is the way the club moves, not what the body does that is important.

 

I was taught by Manny so I use hands back arms forward. Had George Knudsen been my teacher I might well be using my feet, but in either case I would have to swing the club, on an arc, in the direction of the target. Why? Because how the club moves determines what the ball does

 

Steve

[Jasonic]

Yea that's why I thought it was interesting. More than one way to get things done. I'm a big fan of manny but the hands back really makes me lift and snatch. Swinging towards the target though was a revelation and still trying t figure out how to get that done correctly. My shoulders totally take over and I end up pulling left. Not giving up tho, the mental bits of these is what I feel is most helpful in simplifying the action or the idea of LETTING the body positions happen instead of trying to MAKE them happen.

 

[slantsflood]

Yea that's why I thought it was interesting. More than one way to get things done. I'm a big fan of manny but the hands back really makes me lift and snatch. Swinging towards the target though was a revelation and still trying t figure out how to get that done correctly. My shoulders totally take over and I end up pulling left. Not giving up tho, the mental bits of these is what I feel is most helpful in simplifying the action or the idea of LETTING the body positions happen instead of trying to MAKE them happen.

I'm having the same problem with the takeaway. "Lift and snatch" describes it perfectly.

[The Pearl]

Jasonic and Slants,

 

 

Manny told me,

 

"There is no up in the backswing."

[wmblake2000]

Jasonic and Slants,

 

 

Manny told me,

 

"There is no up in the backswing."

 

Not to be dense, but what did that mean for you?

[The Pearl]

Jasonic and Slants, Manny told me, "There is no up in the backswing."

Not to be dense, but what did that mean for you?

 

There is no need to "lift" in the backswing. If you swing the clubhead back in the direction of the right shoulder with both hands, than the natural swinging motion of the club gets the club over the right shoulder with no need to assist the action by intervening with a conscious "lifting" action. For me, I would group it with the concept of the wrist hinge naturally happening as a result of the swinging motion of the club rather than a conscious effort hinge.

 

Do the slow motion exercise from the book. You can literally get the club over your right shoulder in slow motion with almost zero sensation of lifting the arms or cocking the wrists.

 

That is my take anyway.

[wmblake2000]

Reading Hayes book a little - the thing he quotes MDLT saying about feels is the first focus is the club's motion - this creates a feel (which might change day to day!).

 

This makes total sense to me and answers my quandary about feels. The feel is subordinate to and a by product of the club motion.

 

The thing about the club motion is it's not subjective. You can, for example, see it on video. MDLT would use a club in the ground or other devices to give the student feedback - is he moving the club in a better manner.

 

So what I am looking at is am I swinging it back one a single arc and forward on a single arc toward the target. The other thing is more of a symptom, but is the r heel well off the ground by the time the club is parallel to ground on follow through.

 

Sounds simple but doing it isn't so easy!

[wmblake2000]

Ok Pearl thx. I was trying the club over shoulder drill at range today thinking about how to recreate that position. That's what I meant in the 'one arc' thing...

 

I sort of have the opposite - my life long habit is to roll the club off then lift. So I have to see the club outside my hand and elevating early to track on a single arc. That r hand has to be much more assertive and propel the club in a more vertical direction.

[The Pearl]

Yea that's why I thought it was interesting. More than one way to get things done. I'm a big fan of manny but the hands back really makes me lift and snatch. Swinging towards the target though was a revelation and still trying t figure out how to get that done correctly. My shoulders totally take over and I end up pulling left. Not giving up tho, the mental bits of these is what I feel is most helpful in simplifying the action or the idea of LETTING the body positions happen instead of trying to MAKE them happen.

 

There is a corrective drill that Rodd Slater shared with me to address starting the swing with your shoulders.

 

Get perpendicular to a wall. Get in the top of your backswing position (without a club) so that your hands are against the wall (butt of the left hand flush for right handers). NOW, start your swing with your shoulders and notice where your hands go. They go horizontal across the wall first and than eventually down. Instant OTT and club swinging left.

 

The correction to get the club swinging on the arc and towards the target is to get the hands to initially start to move straight DOWN the wall.

 

Again, you can notice this with the slow motion swing drill in the book. Remember that this drill is a CORRECTIVE action designed to get you recognize the proper movement of the club on the arc toward the target, NOT a swing thought. As Manny says in the book, don't mistake swinging the entire club toward the target with the upper arms as swinging the arms.

[wmblake2000]

I wanted to come back to the idea I posted above about feel and club motion - that feel is derived from the club motion, eg, when the club moves in a certain way, it creates this feel - and not the other way around.

 

I don't think I ever encountered this idea before and it strikes me as a good one.

 

The one thing I also thought was it can be kind of a chicken or egg thing. For example years ago I was trying to learn how to not roll the club off at the outset of the backswing. I knew where I wanted the club to go but for the life of me could not figure out what to do differently. This is one of Monte's skills - to introduce different feels to try to get a certain motion to happen.

 

But then again I had never seen the relationship with the clarity after reading this. It makes me think that the clearer you are about the motion of the club you want (and why) that practicing this accurately (which might take some effort like a drill or slow motion or a camera or whatever) with the focus on the club, the feel becomes secondary.

 

This may be familiar to most of you but for me, it's an eye opener. For the first time I can imagine a swing focused on the club and not the feel as the way to do it.

[dlygrisse]

I REALLY think Ben Hogan did a disservice to millions of golfers by writing 5 Lessons. It got everyone thinking about what the elbows, wrists,hips toros and shoulders were doing instead of what the club is doing.

 

Problem was Ben already knew how to swing the club and he had lots of time to practice.

[Millbrook]

Jasonic and Slants,

 

 

Manny told me,

 

"There is no up in the backswing."

 

Not to be dense, but what did that mean for you?

 

One way to think of it is that the trail elbow bends but does not go up relative to the body.

[Millbrook]

Were I to criticize Manny's book it would be the section on the grip, not because it's wrong but because it is incomplete. Manny wanted his students to grip the club in a manner that would allow the club face to return to the ball in a square position, without manipulation. He understood that this varied at least to some extent from person to person, and devised a method for finding your personal hand alignment. He would ask you to hold the club, in a relaxed fashion, in one hand, horizontally in front of you, with the leading edge pointing straight up. He would then pull on the club head straight away from you to see if the pulling action cause the alignment of the leading edge to change. He would do the same with the other hand. If in neither case the alignment changed that would be the way the individual should align his hands on the grip, If the pulling force on the club caused the alignment of the leading edge to change he would ask you to adjust your grip so that was eliminated. His belief was that a swinging club pulls on the hands and he wanted the club face to return to impact aligned as it was at address in spite of the pulling force of the swing.

 

My difficulty in describing this procedure may explain why its not in the book. The moral is your grip doesn't have to look a particular way so long as the club returns square at impact without conscious manipulation.

 

Steve

Ted Purdy came up with a way to do this grip test yourself. Ted was taught the MDLT method of playing golf from the time he was a young boy by Pam Barnett, a student of Manuel.

 

http://www.tedpurdy.com/

 

Checked out the web site but could not find the grip test - could you point me to it please.

[BeTheBall_]

Were I to criticize Manny's book it would be the section on the grip, not because it's wrong but because it is incomplete. Manny wanted his students to grip the club in a manner that would allow the club face to return to the ball in a square position, without manipulation. He understood that this varied at least to some extent from person to person, and devised a method for finding your personal hand alignment. He would ask you to hold the club, in a relaxed fashion, in one hand, horizontally in front of you, with the leading edge pointing straight up. He would then pull on the club head straight away from you to see if the pulling action cause the alignment of the leading edge to change. He would do the same with the other hand. If in neither case the alignment changed that would be the way the individual should align his hands on the grip, If the pulling force on the club caused the alignment of the leading edge to change he would ask you to adjust your grip so that was eliminated. His belief was that a swinging club pulls on the hands and he wanted the club face to return to impact aligned as it was at address in spite of the pulling force of the swing.

 

My difficulty in describing this procedure may explain why its not in the book. The moral is your grip doesn't have to look a particular way so long as the club returns square at impact without conscious manipulation.

 

Steve

Ted Purdy came up with a way to do this grip test yourself. Ted was taught the MDLT method of playing golf from the time he was a young boy by Pam Barnett, a student of Manuel.

 

http://www.tedpurdy.com/

 

Checked out the web site but could not find the grip test - could you point me to it please.

 

Looks like the test is done with the device, there's a link to order it and a video showing how to use it. $349 though!